Eurocopter UK Engineers Walk Out?

[Larryishappy]

These are as yet unconfirmed rumours but I have heard from two separate sources that the licensed engineers at ECUK are about to go on strike, or plan a walk out of some kind.

As far as i can gather this is in response to a planned change to their working routines and cut in their pay. I've always found the engineers to be very professional and hard working but my main concern is for the UK Police Forces that require ECUK engineers to attend call outs to their helicopters 24/7.

How will a period of no engineering cover effect us. Will we still get the same level of service if working routines are changed or engineers are getting paid less?

Can anyone shed some more light on this. Are there any ECUK engineers on this forum. Has anyone else heard anything about the reasons behind any action.

Your thoughts?

[Rigga]

I'm not ECUK - but I used to regularly visit there as a customer.

ISTR that, when a denied service is contracted as part of a larger agreement (i.e. a police support service agreement) the provider management have a duty to sub-contract that service to other qualified engineers.

However; I'm not sure how many "qualified" (355, 135 and 145) engineers may be available for a potentially lucrative short-term contract.

If there are no engineers - you stop flying. Simple.
To start flying again:
1. The calendar items you have passed have to be complied with.
2. Any other maintenance actions also have to be complied with.
3. Dependant on the length of time "parked" you may be stuffed by further calendar items for short-term storage/maintenance. You may be able to conduct 10-minute storage runs to cycle engines, gearboxes and control runs. This may or may not count agains engine cycles (can't remember)


Time to dig out that dusty old contract and read it again!

...and if the service changes - shouldn't the costs change too?

I hope the guys there don't need to walk. But if they do, I hope this helps your plans.

[Fortyodd2]

Another triumph for a human resources :yuk: department. Let's p!ss off the one part that actually provides most of the income for the company - and let's face it, at the moment, it certainly isn't the sales department - and then wonder why they all want to walk. Anyone who wants to walk away from a job in the current economical climate is either very p!ssed off or very in demand. In this case, I suspect it could be both. If ECUK need to make cuts then they should start in the boardroom and HR department.

[timex]

Heard the following from a mate..

Apparently a couple of guys have already walked and another couple are about to resign.

From what I was told its to do with the guys losing their overtime payments for time off in lieu, they can only accrue so many hours and must use them up before a certain time. The Company are apparently looking at sending guys home if they have no work and taking that off their accrued time. The possibilities are that they could also send you home, and you would then owe them days!

Guess that could mean no more w-end work, and guys refusing to work past the end of the working day..

[Brilliant Stuff]

I have worked with a number of the engineers at ECUK and they are a professional lot who do their utmost to keep the customer happy unfortunately though their arms are being tied behind their backs a lot of the time by headoffice.

Anyone thought about the flightsafety aspect?????

Also ECUK were never flush with engineers in the first place so how does management think they will accomplish all that maintenance when you don't have enough hours in the day??

The two engineers walking has been confirmed to me.

I have always been of the opinion engineers are under paid and most definitely under valued by the management and the industry in my humble opinion.

[nodrama]

It had to happen eventually...

Employ engineers on a 37.5 hr week (5 days a week) and use them to support 24/7 contracts......of course the o/t bill is going to start adding up!!

Can't blame the engineers myself.....flexibility and loyalty only goes so far.

[Sky Sports]

McAlpine's must be laughing their nuts off. They really did bang out at just the right time.

[Jim McA]

What is really upsetting for the staff is……

when Eurocopter took over McAlpine Helicopters in Oct 2007 the staff where told it would not change any thing!!! that Eurocopter had acquired McA’s due to the high standards achieved by the employees and that it was one of if not the top bespoke centre in the world……
So what has changed?
For a start the employees respect for the owners…… McApine’s didn’t always get everything right but they did try to keep the staff happy. And the staff responded…… with the aircraft produced….. This was not always on time! However was always to the very highest standards.
Now what have the employees lost in the last 2 years???

The respect of the owners…… its now shut up and put up or leave…… we have lost our voice…
The things that motivated the employees into the great team we had…. The sports, Car Parking, Subsidised Lunch Allowance, Charity Events, Summer BBQ, Xmas bottle, Xmas Lunch and now even the Post Xmas Party. All the things that made McA’s a good place to work.
Now we are losing our paid overtime for time Banking, work an hour at 3am in the rain or snow in the middle of a field and we will give you an hour back….. but oh yeah when it suits ECUK by the way……. And if we have no work for you we will send you home…… but you owe ECUK all the time back to suit US……. Oh and if you don’t like it (oh well leave).
Then today it’s there are to be no pay rise in January (understandable)
So what for the future of ECUK employees…… well we have to look forward to seeing what’s going to happen to the sick pay, pension, life insurance oh and how long before the free coffee machines are gone?So I now think like most of the staff that has been there 10 plus it’s time to move on…….
It is just funny when in October we signed a MOD contract for £220m that things look so bad
when the Managing Director of Eurocopter UK, said, "As the British pillar of the Eurocopter Group, we are proud to sign this major contract strengthening our industrial expansion in the UK even more and enabling us to develop a widening partnership with the MoD, also in view of forthcoming new helicopter programmes such as Future Medium Helicopter (FMH)."

I think that may have just got me my P45…… so farewell PPRuNe. :ugh::ugh::(

[RVDT]

This may be happening in more places than just ECUK nee Mac's.

I think EC might be just waking up to the fact that there might actually be some cash in servicing the aircraft they have sold. Sound like a familiar story? IBM became a service company. BMW/Merc/Audi etc offer a service package just to keep you in the family as a repeat customer.

EC have/are purchasing a few maintenance organisations around Europe. Where it will unravel is for the reasons mentioned here. People who have personally built reputations in service and support will have the rug pulled and be given a number. I have heard this grievance many times.

They are entering a field which honestly they and the people that work in the hierarchy know very little about.

People with degrees hardly get their hands dirty. Its the folk at the coal face who get the job done. This is where Mac's and others like them were good.

EC service and support has improved but there is still a lot to be done to get near the gold standard. In the past they would rather not do it. Now things may have changed.

You can teach a monkey to ride a bike but he's f%cked when the chain comes off!

The other problem they need to be careful of is the staff walking and taking the customers with them.

[Rigga]

mmm...

Methinks that, with a coverall brand like "Eurocopter", it wouldn't be too difficult to move 'specialists' around europe to maintain the availability of important positions for important contracts. After all ECF and ECD do have a lot of maintenance specialists. Is there a EC Lithuania?

Perhaps a keen eye should be kept on the UK staff lists...money being a driving force for many companies under financial stress.

[nigelh]

JIM that will give you more time for the important things in life like fishing shooting and drinking !!!! Hows the weather out there ?
ps i am so glad i dont have my 350 anymore !!!!!!! Nigel

[Jim McA]

Nigel,

You didn't think I was the real James McAlpine did you????

all I can say is i wish I was...... then I would have no need to work for Eurocopter UK.

Jim McA :rolleyes:

[TeeS]

Well Jim McA

If that's the case why use a name that suggests otherwise?

I've not seen James for many years but from what I remember, a damned nice bloke, has he got anything to do with the current events?

TeeS

[Jim McA]

The name came to mind as I for one wished the Mcalpine family still owned the company……..

From what I know James is doing very well he now lives in The Bahamas / Florida and is driving The A1GP safety car………….

If you know him I’m sure you could find him on try facebook……..

[Sky Sports]

Just heard that there were some more resignations of key maintenance staff last Monday. Anybody know numbers or names?

Larry - is it Larryishappy or LarrytheLAMB :ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

That is very sad news.:ugh::{

When will management ever learn????? Any management for that.

[Jim McA]

So can I ask which one of the Eurocopter UK director’s you are Svenestron?

No one said that the rest of Eurocopter have BBQ, Xmas Parties etc, However I was there when we were told by "Markus Steinke, Managing Director of Eurocopter UK", that NOTHING would change "funny thing during a Xmas party",

We all knew changes would happen but its has just been take, take, take, From Eurocopter, with the work force getting anything back.

The engineers have worked so hard over the last 2 years to get projects / Aircraft out on time deadline pushed to the limits, having to work shifts or 60 hours a week……. But it’s been done…..

so what do we then get our contracts have changed from….

In the event of your being required to work for more then 37.5 hours in any one working week, an allowance will be made at the desecration of your department manager for each additional hour worked. This allowance will normally be 1.5 times your hourly rate. However, between 9.00pm and 6.00am the allowance will be 2x your hourly rate. For these purposes the hourly rate is your grows annual salary divided by 52 and 37.5......

To read
A time banking system will operate to capture extra hour’s worked and/or short falls during the normal working week of 37.5 hours. With reasonable notice, you may be required to work at the weekend, hours will be credited/debited on a one for one basis, and resource allocation will be at the discretion of your manager. Overtime will no longer be paid, basic salaries are to be paid throughout the operation of the scheme.

It also says extra hours worked will be banked at single time in personal time accounts in the new time bank, the maximum number of accrued hours is +75. Managers are responsible for reducing these surplus hours when practicable. When there is no work, managers can instruct staff to go home/stay at home. The maximum number of deficit hours-75 managers are responsible for the reallocation of these hours by giving reasonable notice to staff that they are required to work additional hours to reduce the amount they owe. if staff are rostered to remain at home in blocks (eg 1 week) that will not be expected to be available for that period, although they can agree to come to work if contacted.

We are now writing to seek your express agreement to the proposed change to your contract of employment, ……..Something sold to us as short term!!

And as for the rest of the Eurocopter group I don’t see ECUK getting all of August or 2 weeks at Xmas in line with the group???:=

[widgeon]

Its Funny I always thought that UK employment standards were more rigid than in Canada . Obviously not now. This would be illegal in Canada. Any hours in excess of 44 in anyone week must be paid at 1.5 hourly rate , Sunday at 2.0 and public holidays at 2.5. There are also regulations concerning maximum hours and time between shifts. This applies to all permenant workers ( not managers ). There are also some rules on reductions in work week.
On the down side ,paid vacations start at 10 days per years , after you have accumulated them ( ie no paid vacation first year of work It was a bit of an adjustment) . Laying off people is much easier ( if defines as temporary with no compensation ), there is not regulation on paid sick days .
EC Canada had Great Christmas Parties for adults and kids ( not sure now ) and in the dim distant past a family day with BBQ and helicopter rides . Give my best to Markus , I always found him a straight shooter.

[nodrama]

So what happens when the majority of the work force is maxed on +75 hrs and they still want you to work? It's going to happen if guys with key types on their license walk and leave gaps in the workforce resources.

[timex]

I'll bet the customer will be charged full wack for the overtime. Guess that will now be a nice tidy profit for EC, and the engineers get nothing.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

You could understand them being skint in the current climate, but surely the 145's and 135's there about to sell to the police are making them a very tidy sum.

An order they would not have had last year or the year before.

:ooh:

[Jim McA]

No one has said but from what we gather at 75+ then we are working for free….. as you cant bank any more time and you will not be paid….. :=

[Larryishappy]

So am I getting this right so far. From the 1st of January over time stops. Payment for over time that is. The engineers are still expected to work overtime they just wont get any money for it.

They will how ever get time in the 'BANK'. Get called out Saturday night, drive a few hours to a police unit fix their aircraft through the night drive back home and what do you get. Money no no no....

The hours back in the week, the odd afternoon off or late start for a weekend lost. but wait not just any afternoon or late start. You can only take it when the management say you can. You might be at +75 before you know it and working for free.

Can any one see a few problems with this..... We have had an engineer at our place over a weekend that has worked over 10 hours on a number of occasions and I'm sure we are not alone. So by the time Monday morning comes after a busy weekend on call the engineer will have up to maybe 20 hours off due (more if the hours back are 1.5hrs). So thats about 3 working days in the week after only one weekend. So when the engineer takes these 3 days off who will be covering the aircraft he normally looks after. Probably another engineer who then racks up his time off..... Vicious circle anyone....

So what about the actual money for overtime, we pay for our overtime and I bet it is a dam sight more than the engineers used to get (thats OK its a business to make money) but you would think that if we are paying a premium for overtime hours why can't some of that money actually be paid to the people doing the work. ECUK are not losing any money from paying them. In fact for every hour of overtime worked ECUK makes more money for themselves. More overtime means more income for ECUK and happy engineers that are willing to work hard for a company that they respect. Pi**ed of engineers unhappy to work can only be a bad thing for customers who rely on their hard work and dedication to keep their aircraft in the air.

It seems to me that the engineers, about the only good thing at ECUK are being punished for poorly written contracts (how do you not make money from a police contract) and over paid bad management.

Exactly how many managers have they got at ECUK. I could walk in there on Monday get rid of at least 4 managers and more coffee left in the machine would be the only reason anyone would notice they had gone.

I am very worried about next years service levels and customer service. As I understand it 3 engineers have handed in their notice in direct response to the changes and at least 5 more are interviewing/actively looking for new jobs. How many skilled engineers will have to leave before somebody takes notice. From what I know of the management it will be last engineer out switch of the lights.

Hello we have a police call out on the phone........... hello..... hello.......anybody.

A sorry state indeed

[Jim McA]

you have it in one Larry......:D

[Rigga]

Of course the main difference between a large manufacturing plant in the middle of farmland, 40 Km from the nearest big town in Bavaria, and a medium-sized sales and maintenance subsidiary in the middle of UK, and not far from anywhere, is that the key maintenance staff can take their licences where they want and are not tied to the place of work by location or the rarity of wages/work in that area. There are other places to maintain aircraft.

ISTR the meals at ECD are heavily subsidised and every month there is a traditional "Bavarian Breakfast" in the staff restaurant. The ECD factory, and flight line, is generally empty at 15:00 on Fridays allowing employees to enjoy their chosen 'sports', and Employee Morale seemed quite high just last year. Most of the staff I met seemed to enjoy the long summer breaks with suitably loooong holidays.

I doubt anyone at ECUK can take a 6-week holiday or gets a traditional "Fish & Chip" Lunch once a month?


And my final two penn'orth:

It has always been an issue with 'manufacturers' that, when they realise that manufacturing is on the downward slide and buy into a maintenance business, they try to make the maintenance business into an extension of manufacturing - it doesn't work, but those "Manufacturing Engineers" just don't get it!
Next thing you'll see is the attempt to make all the maintenance go though a 'Pulse' system like the factory does - i.e. the Military Contractors of BAE, Agusta/Westlands, etc.

[widgeon]

I have heard Marignane are suffering too ,they have reduced the number and quality of wines available in the management restaurant and it is romoured they now have to show up for work at least 5 days a week.
( of course there are few weeks in France where there is not some sort of Saints day )

[Hilife]

These past few years, EADS has been hit financially by a number of self generated disasters, A380, A350XWB and A400M programs to name a few.

With large numbers of orders either deferred or cancelled in both the airline and GA markets as a result of the global financial decline, EADS will be looking at all its business units (Eurocopter in this instance) to tighten their belts and increase efficiencies.

In spite of a healthy utility and corporate (up until last year) market in the UK, I would hazard a guess that Eurocopter purchased McAlpine’s to better their chances of winning the Puma LEP and more importantly FMH. However, if the light blues go for more Chinooks and slide Merlin Mk3’s across to the dark side, I cannot see an FMH program coming along until the Puma’s retire in 2022 to 2027, so Eurocopter will be looking closely at their UK investments.

I suspect this is all part of the SHAPE announcement back in October, that is based on Saving, Improving and Investing, so you can expect a reduction in overheads (inventories - if that’s possible and wages) and process and production improvement schemes.

GE and Bell has Six Sigma, Sikorsky uses ACE and now I guess Eurocopter has SHAPE for their continuous improvement programs - Oh to have Santa bring me a Six Sigma Green Belt for Christmas.

Management will become experts at producing pie charts that track efficiencies, improvements, cost cuttings and even the H&S Department will be back slapping each other over the number of production hours achieved without even the need for a plaster.

Sadly though, none of these pie charts will track moral, pride, a sense of worth or esprit d'équipe.

Welcome to the world of continuous improvement and lean programs - be it at your expense.

[timex]

Guess now would be an Ideal time for ASU's to get their own Engineers and say cheerio to ECUK?

[PEASACAKE]

TIMEX

Well stated.

Should have been policy 15 years ago to have their own engineers.

I wonder how Part 145 human factors is taken into consideration on long working hours, travelling hours.

[nodrama]

Guess now would be an Ideal time for ASU's to get their own Engineers


It would, but see thread on UK Police helicopter budget cuts. A bit of a Catch-22 situation at the moment, I would say.

[nodrama]

For those that are interested in the question above regarding 145 human factors,

for the CAA's and EASA's policy (or should I say recommendations) on Working Time Requirements and Guidelines for maintenance staff,

read http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP716.pdf appendix P.

[timex]

It would, but see thread on UK Police helicopter budget cuts. A bit of a Catch-22 situation at the moment, I would say.

True, but if things continue as they are, can you really see EC becoming the servicing authority for ALL Uk Police A/C?

[nodrama]

No. There is plenty of interest from other maintenance organisations to be able to put that feather in their cap.

EC do have some bargaining power though....like they are the manufacturer of choice (by majority) and sell the spares.

[What Limits]

The regulator over here (Transport Canada - love them or hate them) is rolling out a Fatigue Risk Management Programme for all involved in the aviation industry.

What really concerns me is engineers who are called out all hours of the week or weekend and then are called to work on my aircraft when fatigued.

Perhaps Air Operators can ask to see the timesheet for the engineer before they are dispatched, just like the operators insist on seeing the floater or contract pilot's flight and duty time sheets before they come on shift.

Engineers should also be more assertive - the right to refuse work when unsafe is enshrined in OH&S regulation.

[Thomas coupling]

What you doing in Canada What Limits?

[nodrama]

So, the guys and gals are not happy with what they are being asked to accept. Some have walked, some are threatening to.
Are EC standing fast? Will there be a compromise? Have organisations such as ALAE got involved? Have contracts suffered due to reduced maintenance support?

Any more news?

[Brilliant Stuff]

What Limits, that is exactly where we were 18 ish months ago, the dutyengineers working nonstop through the weekend after a full week at base followed a full week at base, so this got flagged up and thankfully the engineers are now happy saying "sorry but I am to tired" which is very good, but there should be another engineer who can then take over from the first one. This is isn't happening at the moment, fortunately though the aircraft is behaving well so havn't had much need for the duty engineer.

It's the same old chestnut save money on paper but then spend loads because you need to replace the engineers who have walked.

A happy workforce is a profitable workforce. IMHO.

I am told the main reason for the ASUs not having their own independant engineering is the lack of speed for parts which supposedly have to be channelled through ECUK who will keep the parts for their customers before they pass them on. Though I can not see Bond doing that.

[MightyGem]

the dutyengineers working nonstop through the weekend after a full week at base followed a full week at base
We've often said to an engineer when appraised of what he's been doing that day, to get to us in the morning, when calling him at midnight. Common sense really.

[Decision Maker]

I feel that i must point out that whoever "Jim McA" is, it is not me - James McAlpine. Why he chose the name, I do not know, but can only surmise that it is his desire to deceive everyone into thinking that it is me. He is nothing to do with me or the rest of the McAlpine family and his opinions are his and his alone. I have emailed him directly to ask him to change his username to something less deceptive and more honest, but have had no reply. Whilst i admire the idea behind PPRuNe, i feel completely F****D over that someone is trying to dishonestly represent me. Happy Christmas to all PPRuNers that I know. James McAlpine.

[Epiphany]

Get a life and a sense of humour DecisionMaker - whoever you are. Jim McA never claimed to be James McAlpine.

[jayteeto]

I thought it was :confused:

[Decision Maker]

Epiphany, thankfully I have a good sense of humour and certainly a fabulous life! What seems odd to me is that this "Jim McA" has decided to say that he lives in the Bahamas (which I do, but he doesn't) and also that he is conected with Eurocopter UK. You may not realise it, but this used to be McAlpine Helicopters, my family business. He may, or may not be, 49, which I happen to be. So perhaps you can see why it would appear that someone is trying to impersonate me. As you can see from some of the posts, others certainly think that he is me. I have also had numerous PM's about it and the confusion that it has caused, which is why I took the somewhat drastic step of posting something on here. As the UK heli scene is so small, I don't want people to think that I am saying things that I am not. I have great respect for the engineers at what is now ECUK and I hope that they get this current problem resolved to everyone's satisfaction soon. Happy Christmas to you.

[PEASACAKE]

Decision Maker,

It seems like only yesterday that I purchased your microlight, and associated scary logbook that went with it.

Last saw you at HAI.

Nice to hear you are well (and no doubt tanned).

[Jim McA]

James

I apologise if I have upset you…… I have clearly stated in my posts (please see below) that I’m not you and the reason for the name was I didn’t think anyone would really think I was you. However I am unable to use my name, as I don’t want to be sacked before finding a new job.


Nigel,

You didn't think I was the real James McAlpine did you????

all I can say is i wish I was...... then I would have no need to work for Eurocopter UK.

Jim McA :rolleyes:



The name came to mind as I for one wished the Mcalpine family still owned the company……..

From what I know James is doing very well he now lives in The Bahamas / Florida and is driving The A1GP safety car………….

If you know him I’m sure you could find him on try facebook……..



James I never got your email and have not been on-line to see your post before today so i have asked PPRuNe the following...

Hello,

Please could you remove my user name and account as it seems to have misled some members. I have stated on the forum that I am not the person who has got upset. However to save any further confusion I would prefer to re-register.

[Decision Maker]

"Jim". Many thanks for doing that. As you are aware, I am still in the helicopter industry (albeit in a rather more minor way these days!!) and would rather not have any confusion surrounding the name. I appreciate that you need to keep your real name out of the fray at the moment, but I can think of many suitable alternatives!!! I really hope that something can be done there to sort out the situation. Not a good thing to have going on so close to Christmas. All the best for Xmas and 2010. JM.:D

[Decision Maker]

Hi PEASACAKE. Glad to hear that that thing didn't kill you either!!! I am thinking of building another one, albeit somewhat more substantial! Must have got a bit of sunstroke!!! Have a great Christmas and hopefully catch up one of these days. If you know anyone who needs an EC135 driver, let me know. I really hope they get the situation sorted at Oxford. Obviously not the same now that it's not a family business!! Cheers. PS, I suppose i'll have to find a new name on here now!!!!

[if they only knew]

Jim McA is gone long live IF THEY ONLY KNEW!!! ;)

[if they only knew]

Jim McA is free if your interested? :ok:

[MightyGem]

Decision Maker wrote:
If you know anyone who needs an EC135 driver, let me know.

Hi James, nice to see your still around. You could always try this:
http://www.centraltenders.gov.ky/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/CTCHOME/OPENTENDERS/2009ARCHIVE/HELICOPTER/EDOC%2001A%20ADVERT%20PILOT%20SERVICES%20FINAL%20PM%20091119 .PDF

It's in your neck of the woods. :ok:

Regards from Woodvale.

[Letsby Avenue]

Hi James, we were talking just the other day about you.... Remember our little three ship exercise on the end of EGBB one night? Evo's, Subarus, bonded warehouses etc - What a hoot! Still the best job I've ever got involved with:ok: Your mug's still in the cupboard if you ever ant to drop in for a coffee :):):)

[MightyGem]

Any more news??

[if they only knew]

Oh well the crap has hit the fan again……. How can one company have three different overtime policies?????

If you work for Eurocopter UK in Oxford you get paid for 37.5hrs a week any overtime is banked and given back to you to suit the company. if you do less then 37.5hrs then you get negative banking and they take the time out of your banked hours.

If you work for Eurocopter UK in Hawarden then you get paid for 40hrs a week any overtime is banked and given back to you to suit the company. However there is NO negative time banking in place so if you only work 25hrs you still get paid for 40…..?????

Now the real kick in the teeth……

If you work for Eurocopter UK in Ireland you get paid for 37.5hrs a week and full paid overtime With no time banking in place…..

And if you move between sites you only get what every the policy is at you own work place…

How the hell can they get away with this?????? :mad::=

[helimutt]

How the hell can they get away with this??????

Because you let them? Because people don't have the b*lls to stand up for themselves? Was it a question?

[Hughes500]

Very simple really, it will be in your contract. If it isnt then someone is badly breaking the law !

[Rigga]

There used to be a thing called Union to sort these things out!

Try www.alae.org

[ericferret]

Aircraft engineers are like Greek politicians get three together and you get five different opinions. So attempting to organise industrial inaction is difficult.

Attempts to unionise over the years have failed by and large. The CAA are the only people holding all the details of licensed engineers. One attempt to contact this group failed because the CAA refused to mail on a circular letter with all costs met by the sender, this would have kept all addresses confidential. The reason given at the time was "confidentiality". The reallity was they didn't want to offend Big Airways.

With the merger of ALAE and PROSPECT there is another chance for an aircraft engineers union. If people wish to take it.

I believe this bigger union could bring political pressure on to the CAA for another attempt to contact all the L.A.E's. The mechanics and others would follow if they could see a body that actually had some teeth.

[EaglesHigh]

This a little late but all Police aircraft maintenance is carried out under a National Police Framework Arrangement (FA). The FA provides the police with a 30 day opt out clause for any maintenance contract. So if it gets that bad, there is provision to change the Part 145 maintenance organisation to another that is also contracted under the FA with Part 145 maintenance approvals for the EC135 - PAS for example.

[Coconutty]

Agreed - they "could" change maintenance providers, but would they ?

In these times of budget cuts, I'm sure a number of ECUK's customers, including the Police, have already looked elsewhere.

Would another provider be able to offer the same level of service for less cost ? - I don't know but I would be surprised if they could.

There is also the question of all the new Police helicopters being delivered right now, which come with warranty - 2 years or "XX" hours etc. - I woudln't think it feasible to have such warranty maintenance provided by anyone other than the aircraft supplier.

As has been stated a number of times before, all parts would still have to be sourced via ECUK, who would no doubt add on their "Handling / Shipping / Insurance" charge, and there would also be the problem of some parts not being released if there is short stock, and they are needed for their own directly contracted customers, adding a delay in returning aircraft to service which may not be acceptable to the customer, even if the financial cost WAS less.

Anyway, for now, at least the Field Engineers seem happy enough ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[FloaterNorthWest]

Any parts changed or work under taken as part of the warranty can be carried out by any maintenance organisation then a warranty claim for the work is submitted by the maintenance organisation to the manufacturer who has issued the warranty.

Not sure on the Eurocopter warranty but the Sikorsky warranty is parts only so the labour is at the owner/operators expense. Agusta is all inclusive.

FNW

[Coconutty]

Aren't the Police tied in to some sort of agreement - a "Framework document" I think they call it,
so that the warranty / maintenance comes as a package along with purchase of the aircraft ?

Does anyone know if any ( UK ) Police operator has ever bought a new aircraft from ECUK, PAS, or whoever, and then had the warranty work and maintenance ( during the warranty period ) carried out by someone they didn't buy it from ?

Is that how it works with the few Police operators that directly employ their own engineers ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[timex]

I was told by an EC engineer that when you buy an A/C from EC you are tied to them for the first 2 years?

[handysnaks]

Timex, you are tied to them by virtue of the fact that the warranty is normally 2000 hours or two years (whichever comes first). This does not mean that you need to use them for your routine service. However, should you use a different maintenance organisation and should there be an 'unusual' problem (don't ask me what I mean by that, I can't give you an example)! Then you may find that you get drawn into a ' it's not the aircraft/component it's the way the maintenance has been carried out' sort of an argument. That of course is not to suggest that a reputable company like EC (or indeed any other manufacturer) would use spurious arguments to avoid paying for warranty work, it is just one of the things a customer might consider prior to awarding a maintenance contract to a different organisation. Should you already own your own maintenance organisation then naturally that would outweigh the perceived problem!

[Pan Euro]

There are several police buyers who have purchased new Eurocopter aircraft and either taken them to a third party maintenance organisation or into their own in house part 145. These have not necessarily experienced issues during the warranty period. EC have been prepared to work with these customers to ensure that the aircraft remain serviceable.

[RotaryWingB2]

Which police forces have their own Part 145's?

[Helinut]

The Met & East Anglia/Essex (and possibly Devon & Cornwall not sure)

[handysnaks]

S Yorks also have their own Part 145

Pan Euro. It was because I was aware of the fact that some units have their own maintenance organisations and that they were having few if any issues, that I emphasised the very conditional and perceived (by some customers), nature of any problems.

[zorab64]

Eastern Counties Police Maintenance, (EASA-approved Part 145 organization) started operations in April 2007. according to Rotor & Wing in Sept '07. Based at Wattisham, they have been maintaining the Essex, Cambridgeshire & Suffolk machines ever since.

With Suffolk having taken delivery of a brand new P2+ in mid 2009, one assumes that future coverage of any warranty issues were agreed before they took delivery! :ok:

[ericferret]

COYBUTLEAN

You say the employeees (ex?) of ECUK have tarnished the companies reputation.
I would suggest that to do that they wouldn have to be lying!!!!

Are you saying they are liars?

If not then they are only telling the truth. If ECUK does not want the truth to be out there particularly to their customers ( some of who must be uneasy reading these posts) then they should have considered that before taking action. Maybe they did and decided the adverse publicity was worth the cost savings.

If they are telling the truth then this forum is exactly the place to put this information into the public domain. It is a warning to all job seekers to beware of this organisation. Nothing more , we all make our own decisions but information of this type is very useful when considering a move. On the basis that what has been said is accurate I would not touch ECUK with a barge pole!!!!

Your comment that those who stayed are apparently happy seems to take no account of reality. People have houses they cannot sell, children in schools they would not wish to leave, friends, lack of job opportunities. Most helicopter jobs in the UK require a move or long commutes if you change jobs so it's a hard choice to make and the employers know it.

That ECUK seems to have taken advantage of the current financial situation in order to penalise it's workforce leads me to believe that they have chosen to tarnish their own reputation.

Normally in this forum if untruths are told someone will take a stand against them, maybe one of the happy engineers working for ECUK? Having reread the whole thread there is not one post defending ECUK.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Coybutlean has written to me three times in the last 5 days before posting the message above.

His missives were warnings of dire consequences, respecting confidentiality and opening cans of worms. He asked for posts and even the whole thread to be removed.

As far as we are concerned at PPRuNe, regardless of regional pay rates, the core of the thread is overtime banking variations which the guys on the line have every right to know about.

Here's my reply sent to him:

An interesting note.

In a market economy it supposedly works on the concept of 'perfect knowledge,' a technical term for simply knowing what's what before coming to a rational decision.

Price comparison sites are the perfect exemplar.

How can comparing rates with the same company grouping across its bases be anything other than seeking perfect knowledge?

Regards
Rob PPRuNe Admin

[nodrama]

Something that hasn't really been highlighted in this thread is that ECUK is no longer the 'family' business 'Mac's', that we knew of old.

It is now part of a much larger 'Global' group, an asset to make money for the group, and I would imagine, has profit margins to meet. The big decisions are being made across the water.

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the engineers at ECUK are held in high regard by their customers, and in my opinion, the company is to blame for any perceived 'tarnish' on their reputation.

What's the saying?......."know your customer".

[Fortyodd2]

Coybutlean,
Perhaps the ECUK management need reminding who generates their wages - it's certainly not the sales department at the moment and never will be the HR department. Lose a couple of directors or managers and hardly any of the customers will notice - lose the engineers or customers and you have no business.
Those who stayed are happy? Those who have stayed might also turn out to be those who have not left yet. Customers or engineers.

[MightyGem]

Those that stayed are apparently happy otherwise they'd have gone?
Not necessarily. Not everyone can just up sticks and move to a new job. I certainly wouldn't be happy if I'd lost a whole lot of overtime pay for time off inlieu.

As an aside, maintenance contracts include money for overtime. Can a rebate now be expected?

[if they only knew]

Coybutlean has written to me three times in the last 5 days before posting the message above.

His missives were warnings of dire consequences, respecting confidentiality and opening cans of worms. He asked for posts and even the whole thread to be removed.



Seem to me we could be upsetting the directors at ECUK if the this is anything to go by…….

[Sir Niall Dementia]

From a Customer;

I have dealt with what is now ECUK for 10+ years.

Our KAM is viewed by us as part of OUR team and is an absolute star.

The hangar floor staff are all seen by us as first rate.

There is a member of management I will not name who I have regular dealings with who shows a level of leadership and initiative which goes far beyond the standards applied by so many people across this industry.

The pilots in the line shed answer the most ridiculous questions with humour and great knowledge.

We used to be able to talk directly with the hangar guys about the aircraft, but that has stopped and a vital level of communication has been severed.

We are well aware of the unhappiness of the hangar staff. We always have been. This is a small industry and many of us have worked together in different places over many years and are friends as well as customers/suppliers (there are people at EGTK I have known since I had just qualified as a pilot and they were the very junior engineers) Those relationships are the ones that build the complete trust that is so essential in this business.

We are horrified at the "Time Banking" system. It is unfair, especially when compared to the other staff deals available within the EC Group. ECUK seem to believe that staff will not walk, ECUK they will when the opportunity arises. You will then be deeply in the s*** and the trouble will be really starting.

ECUK your customers are concerned already and are watching you. Coybutlean, there is no point in threatening this forum or anyone else, it is too late. Your customers already know.

[helihub]

Perhaps the ECUK management need reminding who generates their wages . . . . . . lose the engineers or customers and you have no business.

Fortyodd2 - it seems like the engineers have high self-opinions to overcome if you include them in this quote. It should just read "no customers = no business.". As you said, customers vote with their feet. If they have a viable alternative to a bickering company, they can go elsewhere to a happier one.

Here's a thought for the engineers - nobody is indispensable. Anyone who thinks they deserve a payrise, overtime, etc without it being a term in their contract is in cloud cuckoo land. They might not be happy at TOIL replacing overtime, but what's preferable, a job or no job? Sounds to me like ECUK is taking an honourable approach, trying to avoid redundancies and ensuring they are ready for the upturn - which will take some time yet in this industry

maintenance contracts include money for overtime

Mightygem - the implication here is "out of standard hours working". I would hope (but don't know) that ECUK offer a minimum of TOILx1.5 outside standard working hours, which would then cover what is in those maintenance contracts. If they are just offering one-for-one TOIL, you certainly have a point.

if the UK police forces were not happy with service they received for the amount they paid I am sure they would not go with the EC guys

Coybutlean - Given that some UK police forces have already done their own direction for maintenance (irrespective of their previous maintenance org or type flown), the gate is open for others to go in the same direction, subject to their current contract terms. It would be arrogant for any company to think otherwise.

[if they only knew]

Quote:

Here's a thought for the engineers - nobody is indispensable. Anyone who thinks they deserve a payrise, overtime, etc without it being a term in their contract is in cloud cuckoo land. They might not be happy at TOIL replacing overtime,

Helihub - I think you will find Overtime was a term of our contracts

Which read and I quote from my letter signed by Mr T Trower (head of human resources)….. in the event of your being required to work for more then 37.5 hours ia any one working week, an allowance will be made at the discretion of your Department Manager for each additional hour worked. This allowance will normally be 1.5 times your hourly rate. However, between 9.00pm and 6.00amthe allowance will be 2x your hourly rate. For for these purposes the hourly rate is your gross annual salary divided by 52 and 37.5…..

That was until ECUK FORCED us to sign new contracts in December

to read

And I again quote the same letter…….A Time Banking System will operate to capture extra hours worked and/or shortfalls during the normal working week of 37.5 hours. With reasonable notice, you may be required to work at the weekend. Hours will be credited/debited on a one for one basis, and resource allocation will be at the discretion of your Manager. Overtime will no longer be paid. Basic salaries are to be paid throughout the operation of this scheme………


Quote:

Mightygem - the implication here is "out of standard hours working". I would hope (but don't know) that ECUK offer a minimum of TOILx1.5 outside standard working hours, which would then cover what is in those maintenance contracts. If they are just offering one-for-one TOIL, you certainly have a point.

Please read above and you will see. Hours will be credited/debited on a one for one basis,

It’s ok ECUK to tell you that the Duty Engineers get more allocated hours for being called out! But what about the hanger staff who have to work Maintenance aircraft to a tight deadline or the people working the projects? Who are all working on a flat rate hour for hour. Who do you think gets the aircraft to the customers on time and to the standards expected.

Quote:

Those that stayed are apparently happy otherwise they'd have gone?

Try asking Bond, PAS etc etc……. how many C.V’s from ECUK staff they have applying for jobs in there companies? It is not easy to move on but so many of us are looking and will jump before push. Also you have to remember a lot of us are ex-forces so have pensions to fall back upon.

[helihub]

Very fair points and the dilemma you are in is now much clearer to me. If the company forced you into signing new contracts, I assume you all (perhaps as a group) went to CAB or even an employment lawyer during the consultation period? When you say "overtime was a term in our contracts", do you mean that the contract said "you WILL do overtime", or "IF you do overtime, this is how it is remunerated"? Two very different approaches

Remember, the HR department of a multi-national thinks in the way the HR people think in HQ country, and by the national laws of that country. Expect them to think like the French do - and I assume you are aware of the draconian national laws in France particularly on workers councils, overtime working, etc... It all ties up to me...

Stay safe and hope it works out for you and your colleagues

[if they only knew]

Helihub - Yes we went to the CAB and a employment lawyer during the consultation period but we were told all we could do would be to sign the new contracts and log a grievance or leave and fight for braech of contract.
　
As for overtime in the past it was not compulsary but expected of you by the company with notice or not in most cases to get the aircraft out……. However if you work with aircraft you know this is that nature of the business, but not when it’s flat rate, WHY SHOULD WE PUT OUR SELFS OUT???

[nigelh]

I am very sorry for you guys ....the engineers are great but the management , what i saw of it , was poor . Why do you think i got out of flying their helicopters or using their maintenance .

[if they only knew]

I have just noticed Coybutlean has removed his "end this now" post??? :confused:

This all seems to have gone off in different directions now. It seems there are a few conclusions though.
1. ECUK is going through change which has inevitably led to changes in the remuneration packages of workers. Change is clearly not met well with everyone and some used their ultimate right to show they didn't accept the change. They left for pastures green or not, time will tell. Those that stayed are apparently happy otherwise they'd have gone? They appear to choose to complain to a forum which doesn't pay their wages and will have no affect other than to tarnish their employer. This seems unusual as if someone feels this strongly surely they should represent their displeasure where it could be used positively. The company may actually have welcomed positivity and agreement been reached?

2. ECUK has differing payment packages for different regions. How unusual. How unusual also that different job descriptions are paid differently. To revert to the but we were told they are skint shows more than a degree of naivety and great deal of ineptitude in bartering a good deal for yourself.

3. Finally and closely linked to the ideas of 2, if the UK police forces were not happy with service they received for the amount they paid I am sure they would not go with the EC guys. They barter the best deal they can get across all their options, with so many on ECUK books surely that tells a story. No customer will ever reach total happiness but it doesn't mean it's not the best option. And from I gather the Engineers, Design Engineers, Assembly Engineers at EC do work hard to meet the expectations of their customers. Especially it's police customers.

[quote=PPRuNe Towers]
Coybutlean has written to me three times in the last 5 days before posting the message above.

His missives were warnings of dire consequences, respecting confidentiality and opening cans of worms. He asked for posts and even the whole thread to be removed.

As far as we are concerned at PPRuNe, regardless of regional pay rates, the core of the thread is overtime banking variations which the guys on the line have every right to know about.

Here's my reply sent to him:


Quote:
An interesting note.

In a market economy it supposedly works on the concept of 'perfect knowledge,' a technical term for simply knowing what's what before coming to a rational decision.

Price comparison sites are the perfect exemplar.

How can comparing rates with the same company grouping across its bases be anything other than seeking perfect knowledge?

Regards
Rob PPRuNe Admin


In reply to his respecting confidentiality statement I have checked all the documents I have quoted and none of them say private and confidential so I cant see the problem. ;)

If :ok:

[ericferret]

Helihub

I am not sure how you draw your conclusion on ECUK HR department thinking on European lines.

For example in Italy pay cuts are illegal full stop.

In France the workforce can refuse to accept them and they cannot be enforced. Refusal is not grounds for dismissal therefore you do not have to accept the change.

In this case it seems the management has changed the remuneration by way of issuing a new contract of employment, failure to sign it within a given time means you accept it, the only alternative is to leave and claim constructive dismissal. This means severe stress over an extended period, not funny, I've been there.

This seems to be a case of a French based company taking advantage of UK law rather than applying the standard that would apply in France.

[Helinut]

After reading this thread I begin to see how the recent incident where the MR pitch/scissor link control on a police EC135 was not correctly fitted may have its root cause.

Over many years of working with the engineers from what is now ECUK, I developed a respect for their knowledge, attention to detail and professionalism. it is interesting (in a Confucian way) to see how IR may have an impact on CRM, as applied to engineering.

Its a grey area, and not easy to prove a direct link, but none the less important or significant for that.

Very sad and quite worrying.

[Jumped_in_time]

Helinut - I think that's covered in Human Factors 101, and managers are supposed to be aware of this stuff!

Having considdered frequently, a move back into Aviation (having jumped in time) it really has saddened me to read this thread. Moreso, as I still have a number of friends directly affected by the issues.

Macs was a great place to work for many years. They always had a dubious approach to employing (not what you know...) and promoting (definately not what you know!!) but the conditions were good and the pay fair. Sadly, it seems these fundamentals are no longer in place. There was a real pride in getting a job out on time, to the highest standard but little by little (and now not so little), organisation changes have seen that pride deteriorate.

I truly hope that all the engineers at ECUK either fight for their rights or find the jobs elsewhere and make another company great.

[RotaryWingB2]

First EC UK redundancyRelated to what's been going on with the engineers or coincidence?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Maybe they should spend a little more time looking after the staff than trying to firstly work out, who from ECUK started this post and secondly trying to get it removed.:=

A little worried are we ECUK.:confused:

[REGLER]

Always sad when you hear of a long term and loyal employee being given marching orders and I guess all the management are in Texas at the moment?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

rumour has it thats its getting worse up there at Oxford...any one in the know got an update?????

[Sky Sports]

C'mon, 'if only they knew', whats the latest from the inside?

[Coconutty]

are looing for

.. Someone else going down the pan ? :oh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg