Navigators

[Carl]

I don't like to crash into your military site, but would like to ask a question to anyone who knows.

What do navigators do after leaving the service?

What sort of jobs do they do?

Do any take a reduction in salary when they leave?

Just I am thinking of joining the service as a nav, but I'm concerned about what I would do when it comes to leaving!

Any comments would be helpfull

Thanks

CARL :confused:

[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: Carl ]

[bad livin']

Why not worry about getting in and passing the course first?

Just a thought!

[Al Titude]

1. Join McDonalds
2. Serve Fries
3. Probably

[Ex F111]

You mean that there is not an international civillian market place for Night Precision Weapon Delivery, EW and Tactics?

[BEagle]

Night non-precision Domino's pizza delivery perhaps? Rule 1 - never let the navigator drive!

[grundog]

Or.. you could give a sensible answer as one who has just left and was a Nav for 11 years.

I'm a IT company director, have taken no drop in wages. Sometimes work 9-5 but my use of time is up to me. Sure, its not flying as some would say but I wouldn't have left if I wanted to remain flying!

[The Curator]

Dear Carl,
Whilst not wishing to "rain upon your parade", I find myself in the hitherto unknown position of actually agreeing with B.Eagle!
Some facts about Navigators;
a) There are very few of them that can actually tell you where you ARE! - sure, they can tell you where you have been, or indeed where you are going!! But that was not the question in point.
b) Inertial Navigation Units stop whining when the engines are shut down.
c) An anagram of the word NAVIGATOR becomes vag*** rot.

Good luck in your decision,-- but I would recommend that you think twice!!

P.S. Yes I am aware that an I.N.U. cannot buy you a drink in a bar,--but then again I have met very few Navigators that would do that anyway!!

P.P.S -- You only have to punch the information into an Inertial Nav:Unit once.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

Carl,

I'm struggling to be serious but you'll have to forgive me as I'm a driver and not a Nav.

So (suppressing obvious desire towards sacrasm and ridicule), I have a mate who was a Nav (not that I tell people this) who did get out and scored a job in IT earning excellent money selling computer networks. And if you don't get out (or can't score a job outside), stay in, rise in rank and screw everything up for the rest of us.

Then again you could just study that little bit harder and get a real job. :) :)

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Trash 'N' Navs ]

[henry crun]

Had a Pole or Czech instructor at ocu many moons ago who was wont to proclaim
"All navigators are inferior clay, give me monkeys and I will teach them to do the same job".
50% of the course were navs and it went over a treat with them !

[Low and Slow]

Wasn't John Nichol a Navigator? He's doing OK now isn't he?
Has anyone seen him begging outside the RAF club holding a sign that says,
"Successful author, TV Commentator, recently married, documentary producer, PLEASE GIVE GENEROUSLY!"

Sorry John, couldn't resist it. :)

[The Mistress]

Carl

Think long and hard before you decide to "go Nav". Navs are a dying breed within the RAF and non-existent on the outside - a definite limitation to your job prospects. If you are planning to do an MBA as well, fine.

The number of stations/jobs you could be posted to are rapidly declining so your world within the RAF would be MUCH more limited than that of a pilot.

... and you will have to put up with lots of pee taking :) above examples say it all.

Having said all that, if you do decide to go for it, I wish you all the luck in the world.

Yours etc
Wife of ex-Nav

[Chris Kebab]

I thoroughly enjoyed my time flying with a Nav, got me out of a spot more than once.

This anti-Nav, Eng, Air Trafficker, Scribley, Stacker, etc stuff by fellow pilots is sadly more a reflection of the shallowness of their own character. Has always left me a bit cold.

Problem is, most pilots who fly with a navigator do not have ability to fly single seat so take it out on the poor old guy who is simply doing his job.

Numerous ex-Nav mates who are doing very well indeed in management, marketing, project management, IT etc. A few (generally those who have done the aerosystems course) still fly on airline salaries at places like Warton. But there is far more to life, and a person, than the ability to pole and I suspect employers beyond aviation know it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not a nav as such but have a reasonable number of hours in the back of fast jets as an FTO, which is a similar trade.

Navs coming out the service have a number of advantages: -

- They are very well trained in professional aviation.
- A very deep systems knowledge (especially if they've done the air systems course)
- An RAF Pedigree
- They are well trained diplomats, anybody who can cope permanently sharing a cockpit with some of the more bloodyminded members of the master race has to be.

With this they go into many and various jobs. Some self-improve and become ATPLs, many end up working for firms like BAe, Lockheed-Martin, etc. as systems designers / analysts / project managers. There are also jobs as civilian instructors, etc. One of the best Engineers I've ever worked with wasn't formally qualified as such, he was a Tornado Nav who had done the Air Systems Course.

Frankly if it's what's on offer, I'd go for it. Also, just as many FTOs end up TPs, there are many Navs who have re-trained partway through their career as pilots (as F3 phases out in favour of EFA there'll be quite a few of these).

G

[sprucemoose]

Low & Slow:

Regarding your career advice as evidenced by JN: nice one - join as a NCO, convert to a nav, get shot down, beaten up, bombed by your own side etc, and hence become a media celeb.

There must be an easier way to make a living after the RAF, but John's certainly set a great example!

On the original post: go for it. I'm sadly too old to join now, but wish I'd persisted, and would gladly have been a nav if the opportunity had come up - even if its the air force equivalent of being a drummer!

[Carl]

I'm all up for the batter, but from what I've seen above you people sitting up front don't seem to like the guys and girls sitting behind you!

I did want to sit at the front, but for medical problems I couldn't sit in that seat so looked at the next best thing I could think of.

I've been through the selection. Got the Flying Scholarship, Gliding Scholarship passed the aptitude for pilot. But failed the medical.

I've wanted to do the pilot thing since I can remember! Only I'm realistic and know that its never going to happen.

I've even contacted other air forces but with no luck.

I want to become a nav as from the outside world I see it better than sitting in an office typing at a computer.

But I don't want to feel embarrassed by my occupation! From what I've seen above Navs are the laughing stock of the RAF. Why I don't know!!

I still would really like to do the job, and probably will after finishing uni if everything goes ok at OASC.

Thanks for the advice all

P.s. I've had to write this reply very quickly and haven't had time to read it properly so sorry if there are any mistakes!

[Seven of Nine]

Carl,
Forget it if you're expecting to receive useful advice on PPRUNE. The replies above should indicate to you that it is frequented by mis-informed prats with too much time on their hands. If you want to fly HM's aircraft, but are unable to go pilot for medical reasons, then nav is the next best thing and there'll be plenty of jobs for the next 3 decades. However, your best course of action is to organize a visit to a station where you can get to meet some real people and see what they do.
Finally, jobs that ex-nav mates of mine now do: Airline pilot, lawyer, teacher, programme manager, defence industry, IT, Air Traffic Control..... as you can see, you will not be short of options if/when you leave.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Cheer up Carl! Pilot/Navigator banter has always been robust. In the USAF it is quite vicious because it is written into their constitution (or somewhere) that ONLY pilots can command units.

An old mate dropped in today - FAA at the end of WW2 but saw the light and transferred to the RAF and became a testosterone-fuelled fighter pilot. Eventually he got old and was posted to Canberras. He was wary of his Nav (couldn't quite figure out what he was for) and asked his boss. "Don't worry" quoth the Wingco "Buy him plenty of beer and fatten him up. In a survival situation you can always eat him". :D

[arfurmoth]

GOD FORBID that the 2 winged master race should tell the truth but remember as a Nav/ WSO (no truth in the rumour that you will have to have a W on your brevet), you don't sign for the jet,you get paid pretty much the same and you can catch 40 winks on a transit when the nose gunner is following the tanker. ;)

[NoseGunner]

nose gunner? Who said that??

In response to the original question:
Although in fast jets the pilot is always the captain, there is absolutely no divide in the aircraft when you are operating properly. A good nav will massively increase the capability of the aircraft (and a bad one will drag it down) - the same as the pilot, you just work as a crew.
Obviously there are good ones, bad ones and complete arses, but on the whole I probably know more pilots that are arses than navs! If you want to be a nav and are good at your job then you will receive the appropriate (grudging?) respect from all quarters.
If you want to operate a military fast jet (the only way to live!) and have been excluded from pilot then go for nav. As you may have noticed, you will have to take a bit of banter, but don't we all! At the end of the day, if I had to go to war (a proper one where people got shot down) I'll take an extra pair of eyes, ears and whatever else every time.

See, we don't all hate navs.

[6nandneutral]

They get out a map, try to navigate on the ground, get lost forever and are never seen again. ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

A former (and generally reliable) former boss of mine claimed to have witnessed the following conversation. Allegedly this happened as a senior army officer was being shown a Sea Harrier during an official visit to Yeovilton. Any embelishments are no doubt due to the passage of time.

Pongo: "So what's this then?"
Fishhead: "It's the cockpit sir, the pilot sits here and controls the aircraft".
Pongo: "I see, who is this pilot chappie?"
Fishhead: "A naval officer sir."
Pongo: "On his own?"
Fishhead (puzzled): "Yes sir, there's only one seat".
Pongo (worried): "WHAT, without a suitably qualified Senior NCO?"

G

[Hengist Pod]

Of course the most galling aspect of being a nav is that if you end up on helicopters you have to take sh*t from the crewmen as well. It's well deserved though. You get paid about five times as much flying pay as he does but he can navigate just as well (often better,) without a nav computer yet hampered by having only a 45 degree field of view compared to your 220. Plus he's got to go heads in about three times as often as you do, to do routine tasks, but still be able to take over the nav at a moments notice when you make your one poxy radio call that half-hour or invariably end up being a little unsure of your position. In summary, go nav! You can gloat about getting vastly overpaid for doing cock-all!

[cyclops]

Become a Nav! Enjoy telling pilots where to go. Get to the 5 star hotels without the hassle of ordering coaches and finding lost bodies. Be the only intellectual on your aircraft. Know that pilots slag off what they don't understand. Buy him a beer occasionally (but not too often)and he will try to impress by taking you to another 5 star.Just understand that under that ginormous ego there is a little boy. Don't go to war without one. :cool:

[MaxAOB]

Some move on to fly A320's!!

:cool: :p :cool: :p

[Strobin' Purple]

Carlos me old,

Laughing stock? Nah mate. £58k pa to hold the warm and sweaty hand of a JP and try to ensure that he/she doesn't kill me, and trash one of HM the Q's helos. Oh and don't forget to give the impression that you're listening to your chippy northern crewman (get the door Hengist). Apart from them and sanctimonious truckie pilots, job's a good 'un (for 5-6 yrs only). Me? I'd rather have 350 lbs of gas than either of them.

Good luck at whatever mate.

Chin chin

SP

[only1leftmate!]

If you're seriously contemplating a ground branch as an alternative just remember - only aircrew get flying pay. It may not be much in the big scheme of things (SO THEY CLAIM) but its a bloody lot more than you'll earn standing on the ground.

[Chris Kebab]

Yozzer you are a rascal. Was only a while back you were trying to help some mate get some piccies of 2 or 41 Sqn F-4s "a good cause" as I recall.

That wouldn't be the same F-4 that was one of the most successful jet fighters of the last century would it - not the one with TWO seats!

Carl - If it's any help the above jokes just get "altered" to suit the situation. I have heard the whining joke said by a VC-10 guy about a Tri-star crew, an Army gazelle pilot about an RAF Chinook pilot, and the whole RAF about the Red Arrows. The punching in joke is normally reserved by Captains for Co's. I note that the old classic about the difference between a hedgehog and a Harrier has yet to be tweaked into the difference between a hedgehog and the rear seat of an F-3!

Go for nav, the vast majority really do seem to enjoy it. If you were my son I'd be more concerned that you had thought through the implications of military service than be concerned at your seat in the cockpit.

They'll make me an honoury one at this rate.

[ 09 September 2001: Message edited by: Chris Kebab ]

[arfurmoth]

Nosegunner- apologies using the generic old chap- nothing personal.
Chris Kebab- ex jehova per chance? more clues required.
only1left mate- flying pay, with my reputation- it just about keeps the wolf from the door.

[John Nichol]

Carl,
I spent 15 years in HM's RAF as a techy and then as a Nav. I enjoyed both but being a Nav on GR1s and F3s was, without doubt, the best. Sure, I wanted to be a pilot (there can't be many Navs who didn't) but it was still a great job. It's also nice to see that the banter is still as brutal as ever.

There is plenty to do when you leave though obviously it's not as "easy" as getting a job on an airline. (Before the 2 winged master race attacks, I use "easy" as a relative term). But lots of my mates have gone into defence work, pilot crossover, engineering and various management positions.

If you have the will, the get up and go and the energy, you can really do whatever you want and are capable of.

Mind you, I would concentrate on getting in, passing the course and beginning life in the RAF!

[Carl]

John,

If you were me, would you join the RAF today as a navigator?

I know I've firstly got to pass OASC... but you do have to think about these things a little before hand!

P.s. I've read your books... I enjoyed them all!

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: Carl ]

[DESPERADO]

Carl,
As has been said before, there is a lot of cr@p written on this thread about Nav's. Take my advice and sort out the banter from the constructive comment. Many of those writing on this thread either know nothing about it or only wish they could have been a Nav.
Personally, I have been flying with them on Tornado's for nearly a decade and I can only reiterate what has been said before, there are good, average and bad; but this applies to pilots also. I wouldn't want to go to war without 'em. The Harrier and Jag mates may disagree, but it's this combination that allows the Tornado to get to places in conditions that other jets can't! Tis an Honourable profession and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
As far as joining the RAF is concerned. Go on a visit, talk to some boys in the bar and make up your own mind. There are a lot of people complaining about life in the RAF, but personally I have loved it (not every minute mind you). For what its is worth I can't think of a life, other than Jennifer Lopez's boyfriend, that I would rather have! Lots and lots of good times and friends that you will have for life.
Remember that often this forum is a place where people let off steam, you shouldn't necessarily use it as a barometer of RAF life (though sometimes it is!!!).

Despo

[John Nichol]

Carl,
I would have to agree with Despo - there's only one person can make the decision you need. That's you. I haven't served for 5 years now so I can't advise you. A trip to a Tornado base sounds like a very good idea to me. Speak to the men and women who are your sort of age doing the job at the moment. But the RAF is not just a job - it's a way of life and you need to be really sure you want it. Good luck

[ROTAR EE]

Carl. My first 9 years in the RAF were as NCO Aircrew but I'm now in the midst of Nav training. Regrets? Maybe, maybe not, I'll let you know.

The important thing before taking any job in the RAF is to only do it if you are absolutely and utterly 110% committed to it. Life inside is no bed of roses and you will need every ounce of resolve to survive the training system. Once on a squadron, however, life is pretty good. Don't get me wrong, it's no bed of roses either, but the atmosphere and spirit of those around you is something probably few other jobs can give.

Finally, these thoughts...

1. Don't do it unless you are absolutely sure it's what you want.

2. Don't accept a ground branch thinking you'll be able to change to a flying one later (This is a vicious rumour touted by CIOs to make their quotas)

3. A job in the RAF is not just for Christmas. ;)

Whatever you do, get a degree and exploit your luck.

[currybuoy]

just for interest, i am a sreving nav on nimrods,yep the scottish jet up north. the job is excellent, you get to go to some nice places and have a load of mates. i have only been in for 6 yers now but am looking forward to the remainder. as for what i am going to do at the other side then i will work that out in a couple of years. i know i will receive a slagging from the fast jet boys but the nimrod has a lot to offer if you were to end up comin this way.waht ever you decide its got to be right for you, be committed and you'll probably succeed.If you do decide to visit a station don't restrict it to fast jets, see the rotary boys as well, and the multi's. don't konw manypeople who are not having a good time. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[4 of 7]

Here Carl, I see that you are in Cardiff . .

You think the banter directed at Navs is bad, just imagine what it'll be like when they notice that you're Welsh as well!!

Personally I feel that everyone needs a **** Magnet to keep the rest of us clear!

In fairness, I've met some nice navigators, Messrs Smith, Litton, Carousel etc....

Go on, go for it and f**k everybody else, its your choice, enjoy yourself, you'll still potentially do stuff most others only dream about!

Personally, I only met John Nichol once, he was trying to pick up an Air Marshall's hat instead of his own having asked the most reasonable question 'Is that my hat', we should have said 'Not Yet'. You've done well mate, well done, AND you were a Nav!

Edited for Spelling . . again!

[ 22 September 2001: Message edited by: 4 of 7 ]

[Hengist Pod]

As you can see from currybloke's spelling you don't have to be that bright to be a nav.
Even if he tries to edit his post after this he'll probably still be way off the mark - a crucial part of any nav's job.

[ENG]

I have no doubt that being a navigator on some RAF aircraft is an exciting and at times rewarding job of work. However, the aircraft carrying these wonderful people will soon be relagated to the history books, despite the efforts of the very senior and influential navigator air ships.

My advice is go nav and look to branch transfer to the front seat after a tour. It is possible and more likely to happen as the pilot snobbery about such things is replaced by a sensible approach to the future of pilot retention.
PS
Don't tell anyone I said nav's are wonderful.

[1.3VStall]

And Carl, you will note from currybuoy's post that spelling and grammar need not be part of a Nav's portfolio!

[sailtoo]

I am a long retired nav from the RCAF and can still recall what I was told when I was selected for Nav instead of Pilot. "My academic marks were too high." As everyone knows, the RCAF has the best pilots in the world, so the same probably applies to selection in the RAF. It is my understanding that the RCAF is now employing navs as Tatical Commanders in Maritime A/C with the pilot doing the driving.

[Mach the Knife]

Sailtoo, "academic marks too high"? to be a pilot. Is that what they told you to soften the blow of having the co-ordination of a hand cuffed crab? Or maybe, as in the UK, they had filled all of the pilot slots and needed to recruit some Nagivators. I was told I could join as a Nav now or reapply for pilot in a year. I turned down Nav and said I would not ever consider it and was only interested in the front seat job. Got a phone call 2 months later offering a start date at Cranwell for pilot training, That was 17 years ago and am still having a fine time driving, quite glad I'm academically challenged.

[Man B]

Although I will never admit this in public, some pilots actually benefit from the presence of a Nav. If we were all as good as we think we are then we'd have all gone single seat - I for one am prepared to accept that the presence of a Nav has helped me to do MY job to date.

It does look however as if the old and bold of the E-3D are going to be removed from the flight deck in the not to distant future and I for one am concerned enough about the quality of our new breed of pilots to think that this may be a bad idea. Okay so the Spec Aircrew mate who wets himself, drinks tea, eats biscuits and falls asleep is not up to much but they are in the minority, the rest of them (If I am to be brutally honest) will be missed - and not just 'cos I'll have to carry my own bags!

Go Nav and make life easier for people like me!

[Jimmifly]

Navs aren`t really the laughing stock of the RAF, everyone knows that`s the Rock Apes!

[Tilt&Gain]

Carl,
As you may gather from my log in name, I am a Nav, and still serving.
Don't worry about the 'dying breed' banter, these at least 15 years of GR4 back seat jobs to be done (so we are told).
As for jobs afterwards...well!
I am coming to the end of my 20 years (yep, stupid enough to join at 18) and have put out a few feelers. I got a professional company to write a CV for me and have sent it to a few companies around the bazaars, none of which have anything to do with flying. I have had 3 replies (from 6 letters) all of which offer a job, pending interview, and all start on a salary at least 1.5 times that what I will end my service career on.
A lot of civvy companies employ ex RAF because of the general training and attitude to working you have when you serve in the Forces.

Don't take any notice of the shallow banter from people above - it just doesn't happen in the fast jet world (not the mud mover world anyway and who wants to be a fighter pilot - more time in front of a mirror than doing a decent job).

Go for Nav mate - you will not regret it.

T&G

[RoyalRock]

Jimmifly, this laughing stock and lots of my mates have the keys to the station gas chamber. Are YOU in date?

Be a shame if the database lost your records every 3 months.

And back to Navs - please!

[Carl]

Thanks all!

But need to ask something else now as well.

Just got a letter through this morning from the university air squadron saying that I have a final board interview and if I pass that I've got to go for a medical at Cranwell.

The problem is that I failed the eyesight requirement for Pilot when I went for my flying scholarship.

Will they offer me a place at UAS if I don't pass the pilot requirements?

For example, as I wish to join the RAF as a Nav, will they still let me in to the UAS if I pass the interview etc?

Any help on this will be brill!

Cheers all for your help!

[Just-a-Driver]

Carl,

I was a nav I am an F3 pilot. If I could get my hands on the prats who lied to me at OASC and IOT I would quite happily throttle them. They will and do lie like cheap persian rugs. My advise is:

1. Don't be a nav. I enjoyed myself as a nav, but I was the first nav in 5 years to get a cross over, there have been others since but they will also tell you that the numbers are few and getting fewer. There is however a huge list of navs who are wondering what to do now as the RAF crumbles and they need a job outside. If you have ambition look elsewhere because your exit date creeps up scarely quickly.

2. Tell them you want to be a pilot full stop. If your eyesight is correctable you can do the job. They have only introduced different requirements recently because they can't con people in to being navs.

3. If they offer you anything else tell them to ram it, and that includes the UAS.

Don't anyone get me wrong. I think navs are great and the few moments of clarity I can recall were a hoot, but their future is not bright and a branch change after a tour does squat for you aviation or RAF career.

[Jim Haskins]

Spelling! What about your grammer?

Once a NAV always a Nav! :eek:

[Just-a-Driver]

Mmm. I'm thinking QFI? Because you certainly have a grip of the inessential.
Not to mention the, obviously uncontrollable, need to speak when it's not required.
Once an @ss!

[Carl]

Just-a-driver

I've just sent you an email.

CARL

[Carl]

Just-a-driver

I've just sent you an email.

CARL

[The Mistress]

Carl

Good to see you latching onto the guy with his head screwed on the right way. Hope it's going well.

Ignore the dickheads on here and follow your heart.

[Man B]

Mistress

A little harsh one feels......care to explain the reason behind such venom?

[Nil nos tremefacit]

Man Cub

Your timing is immaculate. I am imminently due to have the painters in and you have caught me at my very best :p

I am at home now and cannot for the life of me remember my log in code for this BB. My computer at work comes up with it automatically. My husband will, therefore, have to forgive me for login on with his user ID. He's out anyway.

Me venomous? You're directing your comment at the wrong Pruner. I don't have to justify myself or my comments to you or anyone else. If you are truly interested then you can e-mail me at [email protected].

I note, with interest, that your e-mail is inaccessible. Why am I not surprised?

If you are just out to sh*t stir then why don't you keep your gob shut if you don't know what you are talking about. Just a suggestion.

If you don't want to communicate with me then I am sure BEagle will fill you in.

Some people need to get a life and stay out of mine. They have obviously not done anything remotely interesting in the last 7 or so years or they wouldn't feel the need to keep kicking me and my daughter (who reads this forum) for something someone else did. Right?

Tron Trellis this means you ...
and Clear Astern, oh and Smooth Approach. Stoppers has been a bit dodgy at times. Let's see, oh yes Richard, you really ARE the pitts ... oh and the guy in the green car who drives along Ashfield - you really are very sad.

Is that enough? Don't mess with women with splitting migranes OK? They tend to bite your arse!

If anyone wants a flame war, bring it on.

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Nil nos tremefacit ]

[Man B]

Oooooops

I appear to have stumbled into someone else's war (of which I want no part)....bye bye.

Oh, before I go...Mistress....I really do prefer it if only people that know me call me a ********.

[The Mistress]

Man B

Would you care to point out where, in any of my posts, I called YOU a ********. I was referring to someone else entirely. You must be such a sensitive soul. I would apologise except you've mow interfered in something that was none of your concern. I had to look back through the thread to see what you had said. I thought your post was quite amusing actually.

[BEagle]

Hi TM - good to see the fiery rhetoric back in action!

Carl - how did the medical go? I don't know whether the UAS has the same eyesight requirements as the RAF, but best of luck all the same. If you join UWAS, there are some excellent people there. Perhaps the folk at Cranwell can give you a better idea of the future of the WSO (yuk - hate the new name!) branch; I guess you'll just get the same old 'sooner have the fuel' etc comments on here. But I'm pretty sure that many GR4 pilots are glad of the nav's presence and I think it's fair to say that even the civilians bidding for FSTA are NOT convinced that the AAR role can be satisfactorily accomplished by 2 pilots alone.....much to the chagrin of the bean-counters!

As to what navs do when they leave the RAF? Some with pilot aptitude etc work towards civil qualifications whilst in the service and then get CPL/IRs and try for the airlines (But ALWAYS get a Class 1 medical before you do anything else if you are thinking of that route), whilst others work for major defence companies or as well-paid consultants.

PS, TM - no mention of NilnosT's rail project in the 2011 Local Plan. Is it still being progressed?? It would be an interesting twist of history if an ex-navigator 'built' (as in 'was responsible for the building of', not 'wielded a pickaxe to dig the line himself'!) a railway again, for the original builders of the line were, according to local history, a genial group of 'navvies', a term derived from the canal builders or 'navigators' of the 18th and 19th centuries, but which later became a generic term for any group of artisans! (Explanation for the benefit of our younger readers)

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

....and before anyone accuses me, no I don't remember the 18th or 19th centuries!!

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Carl]

BEagle - I'm going for my final board interview for UAS on Wednesday and then if sucessful I have the medical 4 weeks later. So no news there yet.

Its not the UWAS I'm applying for. Even though my login shows that I'm from Cardiff, I'm at the university of Plymouth, so I'm applying for the Bristol University Air Squadron.

Thanks for the interest, I will post a reply on this board with the results.

Thanks to all that are helping.

Does anyone know how I can organise any work experience with the RAF?

Some of the posts have said that I should visit a front line station and speak to RAF aircrew. But I have no idea whether I can do that, or how I could organise such a trip. I pursume that I would telephone the relevant station and then work my way to speak to one of the squadrons. But if anyone knows an easier way....

Cheers all!

If anyone wants to know why I'm asking about Navs whislt applying for UAS... I'm thinking of leaving university or getting university sponsorship before joining!

[BEagle]

Carl - if you're succesful in joining BUAS, then you should be able to get some assistance towards work in the summer vac. But what do you actually mean by 'work experience'? Various UAS chaps and ladies have had short term attachments with RAF squadrons, I don't know whether that's what you mean by 'work experience'?

Probably best to ask again when you've had the outcome of your UAS board. Good luck!

[GeordiePete]

Carl - as a third year sponsored nav on the UAS I can thoroughly recommend the UAS and being a nav.You won't get all the pressure that it seems the pilots get put under and they'll give you enough hours to let you go first solo anyway. As long as you get past the medical for nav the UAS should take you.

Even if you don't get aircrew join the UAS anyway cos whatever anybody says it's still a cracking laugh.

[NOODY]

Carl,

if you want to fly and this is your only chance then don't be a tosser worrying about the future. Join up and spend your youth on an F3, or if your not good enough, a GR1/4 sqn. I joined and spent 8 and a bit years having the best time of my life.
(allright i did pvr and leave but hey i look back with fond thoughts)

Dont in the name of god end up being a truckie nav. If you can't get thru FJ then leave and do whatever it is you wan't. It may be very intersting dropping sonar things in the sea or whatever but its not leading a 16 ship thru the nellis range's mate.

What to do when you leave....worry about it when it's time to go . i am now lucky enough to be an Fo for BA on the 737 (not sure how much longer though).

Get a short service and get stuck in.

Good luck.

Noody.

ps
My jet now has considerably more thrust/booze/birds and leather seats than most of yours.....enjoy

[currybuoy]

Yep its the nav who can't spell, as for my 'friend' before, leading a 16 ship over nellis may be good fun,i've got many friends who do such things and i'm sure its wonderful but don't knock something you don't appear to have any knowledge about. Before you pull the Scoland card where is the current GR4 ocu based? the kipper fleet and tonka boys tread the same tarmac at spanners each week, fighting for the same buckie fish wife! I will admit that the truckie fleet seems less appealing but the mulits life often comes with alot less pressure,and a damn site more dets to nice places.I never wanted multi's but now i am here and know what goes on (unlike a lot of the airforce) i am having a great time. So don't knock it till you've tried it!! enjoy the hoasties!

[NOODY]

curry chap.

didn't mean to offend, well maybee but only in a bar banter type way. As for the scottish card, don't get your banter old boy. live in glasgow and spent 2 1/2 years at the St Andrews fighter club on 43.

Be honest though dude..... would you join in 3 years time to be in a band of small, and yes talented, group of truckie / nimrod boys? As a civvie truckie at present i can state that all the cheap first class air travel and nice hotels are not a patch on being a young nav on a fj sqn.

As for the spilling, what can i say, product of a comp sec education i guess.

Enjoy.

[BEagle]

'comp sec education'? An oxymoron perhaps?

[currybuoy]

Ok, so i got a little bit excited, but having been up north for a few years now fairly used to getting grief about the location of kinloss from the fj world. some of them seem to forget that the tonka ocu is only 8 miles away and some of them will end up posted to the sqns there. However i have to say that living in Glsagow is a world apart from elgin and forres. Tis often the case that the boys will go south for a weekend to get back to civilisation i.e Glasgow/ edinburgh. The nimrod job is one of the best kept secrets in the airforce, few people who don't work here know the job and are the first to knock it, i for one am enjoying myself. As for your point about joining in 3 years i have to agree, it has been pointed out that the man on the street sees no future in 10 years time. however that is the man on the street, as for those of us already committed, there are enough aircraft left to keep us busy for years. You cannot join the raf on the assumption that you wil get a branch change, you have to be happy with the job you apply for or don't bother. They are avaliable but only to a few and with the recent cuts in the civvy world the cross over boards will now be even more selective. :( . i am sure that there are navs out there who don't agree in fact i can think of a couple of mates right now, point is life is still good, navs are still needed just not in such large numbers, i am already thinking what to do in 10 years time, well maybe tomorrow, hope you enjoy your hoasties and the duty free! ;)

[Mmmmnice]

Done it again boys - 2 threads with the same (or similar) title. Look - I'm a pilot with a desperately short attention span and a dislike of long words; I'm unlikely want to go hunting around to find out the difference between two "Navigators". Rant over.
On the subject of navs: The ones who know where they are(location, not seat)are the dogs b***ocks - at least there isn't a debate/fight about who's go it is to fly. It also saves the pilot the embarassment of having to admit that he has little idea what all the squiggles on the map mean - that's enough - back to the bar!
PS: it is a shame that it's no longer PC to incinerate them though.

[The Mistress]

BEags

Apologies for taking so long to come back to you. Was hoping the old man would be able to do it himself but he's swamped and has been away from home lately.

I am assured that the Feasibility Study for the Railway IS included in the Local Plan. His nibs is due to give a talk to the Green Party on this very subject in the not too distant future. e-mail him if you want the details.

Anyone stupid enough to think the other half sits around on his laurels all day should try looking him up on google.com - even I was gobsmacked by the number of entries for him, and I KNOW what he does. Trust me, the piles of paperwork in the study make my heart sink every time I look at them. Glad I'm not the one who has to sift through them.

[bad livin']

Shutupand Drive....can I email you off forum with some questions? I talked with you in the bowl one night not long ago, when my mate ST was still on your course.

[email protected]

cheers, hope to hear from you.
BL

[Baby_Obs]

So are all you Crabs single seat or what? Havnt read such drivel in years.

Carl if you are a sensible young man you'll consider Dark Blue. As well as all the advantages of being in the Senior Service, left hand seat rotary is v.fun. As for Jobs after:
a)Civillan companies would great respect for you simply from seeing you choice in service.
b)Anyone and his dog can fly Comercial, ooo shooting an ILS approach is hard, and so what if your compatriots have had a couple more hours stick time, Airlines gloss over that.
c)Not much use in civvie street for supersonic anyway.
d)All the crabs will need soon are UAV operators who are all going to be ex NAVs anyway.

You choice mate, besides the light blue uniform looks crap anyway, seen a woman go up to a Crab at a Cocktail Party, I dont think so. As for Cocktail Parties, in the RN, it's your Cab on the arse end, no one eles!! ;)

[Per Ardua ad Infinitum]

Back to the top. Just for the hell of it :)

[Strobin' Purple]

Oi, Fishboy

Talk about drivel and then have the audacity to post that lot! Is that all Jockspeak then?

[Bernoulli]

Hi Carl.

W*nkers like The Curator, Trash 'n' Navs, 6nobs, Yozzer Wotsizface (that's enough egos -Ed) are one of the reasons I left after 11 years as a Nav. Don't let their juvenille attitude put you off as operating fast jets is one of lifes best experiences.

Join, enjoy (despite aforementioned idiots), make an escape plan and then execute.

What do navs do when they leave? This one has became a Captain on Boeing 757/767s and is having a ball!!

[moggie]

Carl,

Is there any reason why you are not after joining as a pilot? The reason I ask is that as you see there are fewer career opportunities in aviation after retirement for navs than there are for pilots.

As long as there are pilots to be trained there will be a need for ground instructors at flying schools and this is a role filled almost exclusively by ex-navs.

May I suggest that you aim for pilot and if that does not work at at the selection stage then maybe nav will be offered. Also, should you get selected and fail pilot training the nav route is usually (but not always) offered.

It is, however, very difficult to crossover from Nav to Pilot in the RAF - once they have their teeth into you they don't want to let go.

BTW - the best man at my wedding was a Nav - but then yoiu always want to look cooler than the surrounding company in those photos!

[moggie]

Noody you old git - why did you do your JOC at ATP rather than in the sun here? I would have been nice to you - unlike when I was on the sim at Leeming!

[carlstone]

Moggie,

I tried to join as a pilot, passed the aptitude tests but failed the medical due to eyesight problems.

I have had my eyesight tested for the Navy and I've been informed that I'm ok.

I don't know if the navy have the same eyesight requirements, but this is what I've been told. The Navy have been sent a full opticians report and they have said I'm ok.

I am applying at the moment.

I have only one problem! I understand that you can only take the aptitude tests twice at Cranwell. If the tests for the Navy pilots are done at cranwell does this mean that if I'm not accepted into the Navy as a pilot then I won't be able to join the RAF as a nav as I won't be able to take the aptitude tests again? Even though I've passed them before!

[bad livin']

Carl, I was chopped from flying training in the RAF, was not accepted to retrain as a nav and so left the service. The Navy however took me on as an Observer. I've since chosen to return the air force though! All things are possible - be clear over what you want.

Best of luck
BL :D

[moggie]

Carl,

with regard to your questions on eyesight, aptitudes, the RAF, RN and how many times you can take the apptitude tests, well I just don'tknow.

What I would suggest is that you write to both the RAF and the RN to ask them for yourself. Don't tell each that you have written to the other - an independent answer will be useful to you.

I believe (but can't promise) that the "2 goes only" rule means two goes PER SERVICE so you get 2 bashes at the RN and 2 at the RAF. However, if you have passed the RAF apptitude tests then the Navy may not even demand the full works from you (at least, they may let you off the piloty tests - they will still want to see you on their officer apptitude tests).

Again I can only advise that you write to them and then keep hold of the letters when you get the reply - the people you deal with on a particular day may not know what Joe Bloggs to you last month.

Good luck - if you get into any service in any aircrew role you will enjoy it.

[carlstone]

Moogie,

I have sent letters to both services. Navy sent me their eyesight requirements.

And the RAF told me that I was not acceptable, and that was the end of it!

Cheers for the advice!

[Who's Ya Daddy]

Carl,

All the above stands for the good and the bad. I have experience of both non-FJ disciplines. Rotary you get a chance to poll. Top fun it is too and the crew element (pilot, nav, loadie) is awesome and the flying, well, 50ft rocks. On the other side of things, I agree truckie navving per se is not exactly stimulating A to B, however Fat Albert in Swindonia does tactical flying too. Okay, maybe its twice as slow as FJs, but its still mixing it low level in big numbers. Again, loadsa fun. Low level is the key. If you want job satisfaction, I can think of no better. Mates off my nav course who went FJ are loving it. others went to the nimrod and after initial reservations, also love it. Those on rotary, they love it. Its camourarderie like you will have never expereiced - friends for life, beers inthe bar and all that. There is no comparison. Those who say its a naff job, well, just point out a Flt Lt navigator on flyiing pay gets the same money as a Flt Lt pilot with FP (time in the same of course). As for the captaincy tick for pilots, they get that extra pay don't they....sorry my mistake.
Carl, the military is shrinking and as a result everybody knows everybody. Its an excellent job/career/way of life but there is also a lot of bull - its the military. Good luck and enjoy.

[superfurryanimal]

Carl,

Whatever you decide, for God's sake make sure you have a robust back up plan. I went through the UAS route some 10 years ago with a view to joining as a pilot (thoroughly recommend the UAS - what a blast!!!), but chose not to join and left Uni only to find myself unemployed. No back up plan to a lifetime of wanting to go FJ you see (oh, the violins!!!).
However, did end up spending 8 years in retail management (dull, dull, dull), saw John Nichol in Woolies at Ripon (cheapskate didn't even buy any of my lovingly tended pic n mix! - sorry Mr. Nichol sir) and only now am I pursuing a flying career with the airlines. As much as I enjoy my current situation, I'm really not sure that I wouldn't be VERY interested in a job back seating in a FJ, even if it had to be as talking baggage. The lifestyle can be great (I only said CAN), and from experience you wil meet as many plonkers regardless of the branch (or service) you eventually decide on.
Whatever happens, good luck. Oh to be young again.
As far as career opportunities, well the only Navs I know are now (or rather, were) civvy pilots or ground instructors at my FTO.

Flying sure beats working for a living!

[Eagle 1]

I myself am at the very start of the interview process for The RAF as pilot (P2 talk at the mo :)), however, if the RAF were to rule me out for eyesight (I do not wear glasses) how would I go about applying for the FAA or AAC afterwards....eg.g, would there be any complications due to previously applying for the RAF?

Only asking as I have heard that the FAA and AAC have slightly less stringent requirements for eyesight than the RAF. (If this is true, does anybody know why this is and why the RAF does not have the same requirements as the FAA and AAC?)

Thanx guys

:) Eagle 1 :)

[bad livin']

Eagle - no on compications - many people apply to both. As for eyesight standards you need to get the addres for the Air and Admiralty Medical Board at HMS Sultan - either call them or write and they'll tell you what you need to know.

good luck - it's worth every hassle!
BL

[carlstone]

Eagle1,

Send me an email to [email protected].

I have some information which might be of interest to you!

Cheers pal!

CARL

[pushover]

Eagle 1 - The Navy is short sighted. End of dit.

[skywatcher]

I am not skywatcher...but he left it logged on!....just to say that all it is all banter...if you asked the same about being a pilot all the Navs would have jumped in with the same sort of comment....come the day, we need all aircrew!!...so if you can't take the banter now....best you sell fries.