mil jet 'break' landing

[mstram]

Was watching the mil jets land at CYYZ today after the airshow.

Come in to final at 500-1000 AGL (guessing) at 200kts++.

Halfway down the runway, 89.999 degree bank back to close in downwind !!!

Descending turn down to final, "normal landing".

Impressive. ... specially when done 2 or 3 at a time. Snowbirds, 9 planes , 3 sets of 3 landing side by side.

Question: technical / operational reasons for this ?

Or just another part of the airshow ? ;)

Mike

Mike

[oldpinger]

Not sure, they tend to do it rather a lot so I suspect it wasn't just the airshow. I always thought it was designed to cause maximum disruption to all other airfield operators (particularly me!!)

Can't quite work out however, why you need to do a break in a PC9/(Tucano)..... :D :p

[mrfish]

the buzz and break apch was developed by the royal flying corps in ww1.....but was more of a 'flyover'

the intent was to allow commanders to literally count how many acft came home (remember no radios etc)

as faster acft were developed the b+b became the fastest way to get a high speed acft onto the ground. its major benefit is in getting formations onto the ground quickly...imagine your 9 snowbirds all trying to join via base or final.....fricken chaos!

tactically it also means you can maintain a high 'combat speed' until literally overhead your own defences; admittedly since the development of stand-off weapons this is rather defunct.

i dont know the canuks rules but ours are: 500ft @ 360kts (although 250ft at 420+ is ok too!)

[BEagle]

500 ft at 360 KIAS?? That's a bit 'Womens' Auxiliary Balloon Corps' for a FJ?? What do you fly, the JP6 (otherwise known as the Hawk)??

[mrfish]

you flatter us sir; arrrgh what i'd give to be in the womans aux balloon corps.

probably have better kit than us too.

"treat your kite like you woman...pip pip."

[Ali Barber]

Try Gibralter. If the road is open (it crosses the runway) then no breaks below 200 ft. If the road is closed don't go supersonic and don't go into Spain! Yee Haa.

Lets everyone know it is RAF Gibralter, but we let the civvies use it as well.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

MrFish, you and your training sqn buddies haven't been obeying the break minimas for months now!!

Keep an eye out for 50ft, 550+ on the RTB from Singapore!

[fobotcso]

Beagle, Hear, Hear!

I seem to remember it was Balls to the Wall and if you're high enough to be able to look at the ASI then you're too high!

[Jed A1]

In the days of no radio (or incase of) used by the daredevils at the pointy end to check out the airfield and see if it's been overrun by baddies.

[fobotcso]

Yes, that might have been the case at one time, but at 30/30 or 200 a side there were few options for going somewhere else even if the baddies were in residence.

[BEagle]

I thought that's what you took off with?

I was banned from VRIABs at my UAS by the utter ******** of a boss we had at the time. He didn't like 'all levers forward' at 100ft and the break overhead his office, idle power, steep turn and pop it on the RW26 threshold numbers to turn off at the short exit. Well, at night at any rate!

[Jackonicko]

And that's when he was a stude.....

Once witnessed a Russian multi-ship run and break, where alternate jets broke into LH and RH circuits. Staggering, and apparently deliberate!

[AffableGuy]

I was at Pearson too watching the landings and takeoffs, alternating between 24R (all the landings and breaks) and 23 (takeoffs).

Well, in terms of rules, I have no idea. But I was sitting beside the firehall today, when the Hawk literally flew in front of a AC DC-9 in position on 24R, at no more than 150 ft off the ground, before he broke. The DC-9 took off, before he came back to land. Very impressive.

The Transall C-160 was the funniest one. Had the smallest turning radius, did his break and land within one square mile, I'm guessing.

The Tornado pilots were a bit wimpier, though. More like a thousand feet when they did the flyby... :D (Us spectators are picky.)

Two other things of note:

a) What happened to Snowbird 9? Made an emergency landing, and because I was right beside the firehall, got treated to a loud dose of sirens which blocked out my radio. The plane was alright, though, seemingly, though the firetrucks decided to follow it to the de-icing pad anyway.

b) The Thunderbirds takeoff run was quite spectacular. 4-2-2 formation (kinda like Football), full afterburner...amazing stuff.

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: AffableGuy ]

[mstram]

Affable,

Ya, I saw the Tbird takeoff, were you in the cargo parking lot ?

I heard on my scanner that they were initally cleared to 23,000 after takeoff, and the controller was asking if they wanted higher than that. Didn't hear the reply though.

It was so hazy, that I lost sight of them after takeoff though !

(Normal clearance is to 5,000. I've heard late at night when departure has cleared a plane to FL230, but never from takeoff).

Too bad they could'nt clear them to FL40 or something, so they could do the 'rocket straight up takeeoff ' ;)

Heard on the news tonight that SBird#9 apparrently had some kind of vibration in the cockpit.

Mike

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: mstram ]

[AffableGuy]

On the radio, I heard they were cleared to FL230, then 270. But by then, they were long gone. No spectacular verticals...

In fact, they tried to contact Toronto Centre, and no one responded...odd.

[Ali Barber]

The Red Arrows did a spectacular run and break at Muscat in Oman last year, breaking from a diamond 9 loop into a bomburst with left and right breaks. On the runway the Hawks kept to the left or right side depending on their break, and kept the middle of the runway as a fast lane. The last Hawk down had brake problems and had to use the fast lane, going between all the preceding Hawks as it took off again to wait for a clear runway. I think they should keep it in their show!

[mrfish]

as much as i respect your right to question, i say no to your scanners.

anoraks at 12 paces gentlemen......

[Flatus Veteranus]

The tactical aim of the fighter break and stream landing used to be to get the formation on the ground as quickly as possible for refuelling/rearming. The section approached the airfield at operational speed in low level battle formation ( deeply echelonned finger four)and the leader broke over his No 2. Approaching the airfield unnecessarily fast entailed more time to kill speed and so took longer.

In my time, for normal purposes, the section would approach the airfield at 360-400 KIAS in echelon starboard (for a LH circuit) at 50 ft (for a single section). At the caravan the leader broke left, reefing it up at about 4g, popped his brakes, power off, 30% flap at 200KIAS, brakes In and gear down at 175 K/1000ft, continuing into a curved approach feeding down more flap as required, not touching the throttles and, ideally, rolling straight and putting it on the numbers at 110K. Nos 2,3 & 4 followed him at precisely one second intervals, which gave them a short downwind leg. The idea was NOT to have to use much power, and so give the chaps behind a rough ride. The other sections were close line astern to the lead section and, if people kept their fingers out, it was possible to have 16 on the runway at once. I seem to remember 111 (the Black Arrows) had 20 Hunters on the Farnborough runway at once in 1957. Some squadrons used a fan break, using increasing turn radii to space thmeselves out, but I don't think that looked so smart. Even spacing downwind and on finals was the tell-tale whether the fellas knew their stuff (or not).

[Marine]

Formation breaks to multiple runways are both fun and can be valuable learning experiences. Figuring out how to do what you want and not getting hammered. Tacan to missed approach transition to VFR downwind translates to tacan above gear and flap speed (don’t legally have to configure as no intent to land) down to missed approach HAT, followed by an expeditious turn to down followed by a climb to pattern altitude then configure to land. Also applicable precision approaches or random lows (not that we have really trained for those lately).

Be advised to stay away from homefield or adults eyes. While one can certainly weather the a** chewing the direct order prohibiting such training can put a damper future endeavors. Pick your opportunities

[802j668]

Always done it like that - good tactics and, more importantly, impresses the **** out of the anoraks!

[FJJP]

The NATO standard break is 1000ft level onto the downwind leg.

Then there was the 'Canadian Break' which used to be favoured by the F4 fraternity - level at 1000ft, Derry turn onto the downwind leg. Like the mate at Leuchars some years ago who did it but got it wrong, departed controlled flight and both banged out.

Anybody out there still doing them?

:D

[Gainesy]

Some Iranian F-4s had a sqn visit to Akrotiri back in 1970-ish. Their four-ship run & break was painful to watch with Lead breaking just over the threshold and the Number Four eventually breaking some 20sec later just off Episkopi. Sharp as a sausage.

[Zoom]

I believe that another reason for the break was that the pilot of a war-damaged aircraft could shut down his spluttering engine over the threshold but still have enough speed to fly the set pattern without having to rely on the engine again.

Regarding the NATO standard break, I'm not sure what the USAF called its breaks in the 70s but they were dangerous in most of the hardware they had at the time, such as F-4s and F-105s, which didn't handle well at low speed. They approached in echelon at 300 knots and 1000ft and flew a level turn at 5 seconds spacing onto downwind. During my USAF exchange I suggested that the squadron should try it RAF-style (battle formation, 250 ft, 420kt, all wrapped up in 20 seconds) for a while. After weeks of papers, letters, presentations and soul-searching, a trial was arranged but, unfortunately, the pilots weren't given enough time to get the hang of it and the breaks initially were rather shambolic. That was all the powers-that-be needed and with a joyous cry of 'We told you so' they stopped the trial, feeling that they had nothing to learn from the RAF anyway.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I should have mentioned that the SOP was 250 ft; but in Egypt there were only about 2 ins to the foot. Nobody gave a stuff, anyway!

[Al Herbs]

Referring to the F4 Canadian break which ended in the loss of a departing aircraft it occurred at Wildenrath during the production (I believe) of a Man Alive TV programme. I take task, though, with Zoom who infers that breaks in an F4 were dangerous (only to those below who were covered in decibels and half burnt paraffin). Anyhow, 4 ship battle breaks from 420kts were not only manly but kept the exposure to a minimum when you realised you had pitched into Bruggen circuit and not Wildenrath's, by mistake, in the appalling vis that used to be known as "Brit VFR" in those days.

[FJJP]

Al Herbs.. The Canadian Break accident happened at Leuchars. I know the plt concerned - initials JH. Got away with it because of inexperience on type. He was ex-V Force, recently converted to FJ.

[Zoom]

Al Herbs
No, I didn't infer that all breaks in an F-4 were dangerous - only the USAF ones at 300kts and level.

Al Herbs & FJJP
You're both right about the Canadian Breaks (formerly known as the Raynham Break). The RAFG one took place from behind a camera-toting C-130 so it was probably initiated at 300kts or so (see above) and without enough nose-up. I knew the pilot from the Towers and Valley - a really good egg. He began life on Lightnings and, in this incident, possibly forgot momentarily that the F-4 just did not handle at low speed as well as the Lightning. Many of you will have seen the footage of this tragic moment as it has been used in various flight safety films. The Leuchars incident occurred shortly afterwards - I think they were practising for a show - and probably should not have been authorised so close to the earlier one.

[Gainesy]

Was "The Scottish Officer" involved in the Leuchars auth chain or am I confusing it with another accident/incident?