United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser [Archive] - Page 4

BOAC

20th Dec 2009, 21:31

korrol - if you refer to this supposed 'poisoning', may I attempt to relax you a little? I shudder every time this old chestnut is resurrected here (try a search for it).

I and the vast majority of pilots have never experienced anything like the 'Racasan Sauce'/Visine/body fluids etc you are hearing about. On a significant number of 'socialising' events with crew this 'story' has inevitably come up. I have been re-assured that it is just that (perhaps based on some historic/apochryphal event) and I gather it is a story put around (effectively, obviously) to frighten some of the dinosuars with which the crew have to work - as, perhaps, a 'warning shot' if you like. I have flown with c/crew of all levels of intellect from 'just-started ex school' to degree educated and I do not believe any of them would be so stupid as to contemplate such an action. You will find posts ASSURING the reader that xxx has done it and that 'I know it happens'. All I can say is that in my experience it doesn't and I suspect I am far from alone. In all my 'crew' flying time I have had two 'upsets', one of which began just before the flight and the other was confirmed to be caused by the crew-food, and affected others. I have also had more than one event when flying solo, military and civil - obviously the crew food?

belfrybat

20th Dec 2009, 22:47

This thread lay dormant and mostly forgotten until in post #650 you pop up once again, with gloat setting dialled to 10. Obviously you have some kind of agenda or something else to gain from stirring the pot. So far there has been only one uncorroborated story, telling the FA's side of things. Your antics of late do nothing to make it more believable.

[...]you're hallucinating or wishing for something that doesn't exist.

Out of place vehemence and invective do nothing to convince me this is the whole story. Evidently it's treated as a minor issue as there have been no additional reports, witnesses or other materials or efforts to back it up. Or shoot it down, as the case may be.

DownIn3Green

21st Dec 2009, 03:27

BoF...You don't know whether I can do "Down In 3 Green", as you don't even know what that is...and BTW, I (and from the general feeling of the rest of us on this post) don't really give a toss about what you think...

Go on over to the Cabin Crew or Wannabee forum, you silly little person....

411A

21st Dec 2009, 03:34

It would appear that BoF is a troll, best ignored.:}

stilton

21st Dec 2009, 05:14

Based on Bullsh*t

You and your mentality are largely responsible for the tensions, pathetic, selfish behaviour and lack of professionalism that we see in the cabins of US carriers these days.

Time for you to pi*s off

:=

Obie

21st Dec 2009, 06:36

I'm surprised that no one has asked BOF to explain his statement that the CC involved works as a nurse on her days off? :ok:

adsyj

21st Dec 2009, 06:38

Based on Fact

Shut up do your job correctly and do not ever undermine the commander of an aircraft. YOU ARE UNSAFE TO FLY WITH.

Don't know about the rest of you but i have had a gutful of based on facts.

YoDawg

21st Dec 2009, 11:04

As for "the tampering with food." Are you people for real!?! He's flying the damn airplane!! I don't think ANYONE on our crew had a death wish

But when he's on the ground and you're all safe, he's fair game?? That's really warped, I think you need help!

So glad we don't have "old boilers" where I work..... :D :p Say Hi to your cat for us!

Bealzebub

21st Dec 2009, 11:28

Wheat and chaffe notwithstanding, BOF is a person on this thread that is in part, presenting one seemingly informed viewpoint. It is unfortunate that the argument or information is being so wrapped up in aggressive armour, but that may be as result of wandering into the dragons den?

This is a very unusual event, although the CRM issues it raises (usually to a much lower degree) have a significance for everyone, if only from a general interest point of view. In other words there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere. To that end perhaps we could "can" some of the more churlish comments and either discuss it more seriously or simply read and listen.

I am not for one minute suggesting BOF is either right, well advised, or has the moral high ground, but it doesn't hurt to listen, rather than simply offer a churlish retort.

Mr Optimistic

21st Dec 2009, 11:31

...but if this is believable to people in the know, shouldn't it be reported into the authorities ?

Bronx

21st Dec 2009, 13:32

This thread lay dormant and mostly forgotten until in post #650 you pop up once again, with gloat setting dialled to 10. Obviously you have some kind of agenda or something else to gain from stirring the pot.
Amen to that. :ok:

Don't know about the rest of you but i have had a gutful of based on facts.
If folks keep feeding her she'll keep coming back.

http://www.trollhunters.org/files/trolls/troll-01.jpg

BOAC

21st Dec 2009, 13:55

Perhaps if we could persuade our 'keyboard finger-happy' troll-feeders to take a breath, we could have another 4 months?

epc

22nd Dec 2009, 05:46

But when he's on the ground and you're all safe, he's fair game?? That's really warped, I think you need help!

She's clearly saying 2 different things:

1) No cabin crew is gonna tamper with the food of the pilot who's flying the aircraft they are on. As she said, "I don't think ANYONE on our crew had a death wish."

2) However, no one in the cabin crew likes / trusts this capt.

stilton

23rd Dec 2009, 04:17

So apparently this Captain is back at work.

If it were not already, it makes everything 'based on bullsh*t' has said completely and utterly irrelevant.

:ok:

rgbrock1

23rd Dec 2009, 14:26

stilton,

What makes you think the Captain is back flying aircraft?

Anthill

24th Dec 2009, 05:55

I have followed this whole thread for sometime and there have been some most pertanent CRM issued raised. Some of these may or may not have applicability to the case in hand, depending on the established facts as opposed to the rumour and innuendo that has been giving here.

For a start, CRM entails the safe and efficient use of all available resources. This is an ICAO definition. It is not one that I have made up. Whilst good CRM implies safety, excellent CRM also implies that decisions are efficient as well.

Let me be crystal clear on one thing: Good CRM is not some warm-and-fuzzy-feel-good-Dr Phil-meets Oprah-in-a-hot-tub kind of I’m ok/your ok-psycho-babble, good CRM is a tool that allows the decision makers to make good decisions. This means that input from subordinates is encouraged and where this input has validity, it is to be accounted for. When it does not have validity, it can be safely ignored. How a Captain goes about doing this a called command style. Remember, a flight crew is not a democracy.

Command decisions are not put to a vote and are not about making people ‘happy’. Command decisions are about safety and efficiency.CRM training is (or should be)about reinforcing this concept. Unfortunately the trend in recent years has been to misinterpret what CRM training and philosophy is all about. The blame for this trend falls squarely at the feet of CRM program developers and trainers (of which I am one). The contemporary outcome of many CRM courses is that subordinate crew members feel that they now have a licence to usurp authority belonging to the Captain. That is a million miles from the desired outcome.

The issues of generational cultural differences (esp. Gen Y) need to be accounted for in CRM training so as there is no mistake whatsoever that the Captain is in charge and that the chain of command is Capt-FO-SO/FE then CM and cabin crew. A surprising number of CC pupils in CRM training(many with years of airline experience) think that the Cabin Manager is 2nd in charge of the airplane, after the Captain!

There have been several posting regarding the issue of respect. I refer to the notion that respect needs to be ‘earned’. In the airline industrial environment nothing can be further from the truth. The reality is that all airline crew are paid (that’s right, paid) to be respectful of each others’ professional position. It goes without saying that CC and the CM are thus paid to be respectful of the Captain and conduct themselves accordingly.

Disrespectful conduct is a CRM threat (communication barrier) and should be treated as a legitimate safety issue. Shoving a Crew Dec. under the door without a courtesy call on the interphone to say that you have done so is an example of discourtesy. So is (as previously posted) holding paperwork slightly out of reach and looking at the FO with a ‘WTF?’* look on your face. These behaviours are also examples of workplace bullying. If you check the company HR policies at any Western airline, you will find that bullying is a form of workplace harassment.

In this off-loading issue, the Captains decision needs to be evaluated in terms of safety and efficiency of the operation. It is plain that we are deprived of all of the relevant information to make a judgement on the Captain’s decision. The issue, at least, has raised some worthwhile discussion.

*I had a CM pull this stunt on me once and I plainly asked her why she was giving ‘that look’ to the FO. She could not give an answer. I told her that if she disagreed with or did not understand my requests she should seek clarification from me. After this, the behaviour stopped.

411A

24th Dec 2009, 06:26

*I had a CM pull this stunt on me once and I plainly asked her why she was giving ‘that look’ to the FO. She could not give an answer. I told her that if she disagreed with or did not understand my requests she should seek clarification from me. After this, the behaviour stopped.

Likewise, some years ago.
However, in the CC malcontents case, she persisted, whereupon she was offloaded, right now, and sent to base.
She was terminated forthwith.
That company, nor my present company puts up with any BS from CC, of whatever type.
Ever.
Suits me to a T.

Obie

24th Dec 2009, 06:56

The post by Anthill is the best I have ever read, on any subject and especially CRM, in 10 yrs or so of Prune involvement!

Any Chief Pilot, in any company, ought to adopt his post as mandatory reading for all airline employees!

Well done! :ok:

Anthill

24th Dec 2009, 09:20

Shucks Obie....:\

TIMA9X

24th Dec 2009, 10:27

To Anthill,
Just a quick note to say that not only do I agree with what you have said it is my view Generation "Y" CC have confused "empowerment" a trendy term used by the corporates back in the 90s with today's ongoing CRM training. The Captain and then the FO are the chain of command. What ever happens behind the cockpit should always remember this. Somehow over the years some CC have fused these meanings empowerment and CRM into their own version of self-importance.

mary meagher

24th Dec 2009, 13:41

From reading this thread - yes, all of it! I have gained the distinct impression that the person/male or female encrypted as 'BASED ON FACT" is probably the cabin crew purser who was asked to leave at Miami. The vitriol is way overboard for anyone else who remained on the aircraft to destination; these all seem to be sensibly silent.

We have all suffered from the Big Chief power syndrome that sets in with people in command, from before the time that Fletcher Christian and his associates set Captain Bligh adrift. But as jet aircraft do not commonly take two or more years to reach destination, if Captain Bligh is in command, as innocent passengers would unwittingly suffer from any crew conflict, cabin crew who feel put upon should carry out their duty without complaint and certainly without fomenting mutiny. Just write a letter later.

Even though trolly dollys no longer have to serve and smile, and can carry on into their late middle years, all the same they are more easily replaced than experienced aircrew.

RatherBeFlying

24th Dec 2009, 14:53

BOF could be one of many people. I suspect that the least likely candidates would be be people on duty for the flight as they would likely have been instructed to stay silent.

Deadheaders, copers, retirees or relatives can make up a large pool of candidates who both know the staff and company issues and share their stories with other copers. BOF may even not have been on the flight, but could be a significant other who feels he or she is beyond the reach of HR.

DownIn3Green

24th Dec 2009, 18:29

It dosen't matter re: BOF...Thankfully, he/she has gone silent on this thread...hope it stays that way.....

bearfoil

24th Dec 2009, 19:03

There is not a hint of anything from the Company, or the crew involved. I expect there will be none. Done, are we?

rmiller774

26th Dec 2009, 04:19

In addition, who else would have been in a position to say (Post #140 as BOF) "... She slide sic them under the door and timed that they were not picked up by anyone in the cockpit for 37 minutes". How bizarre that she would be timing this happening to the minute and not very not long after departure. She seems to have had an agenda planned from the outset.

gandernext

29th Dec 2009, 21:55

Saw him at TK last month getting back up to speed, so yes, by now he is flying again.

Yenaldlooshi

30th Dec 2009, 12:21

When I'm Captain if you have an issue with me, I can accept that, ... and you have the right to disembark the aircraft at any altitude you desire. I will assist you with that. People know better than to screw with this Captain or they will walk the plank with assistance from the rest of the crew. That's real CRM.

DownIn3Green

30th Dec 2009, 17:51

What?????????

letterman

31st Dec 2009, 05:49

While new to this thread, I find it most amusing. On one hand there is a group willing to crucufy a captain. On the other hand there is a group that have the "I am captain, hear me roar." If assisting a crew member off the aircraft at "any altitude" is your example of CRM...it's no wonder there are issues between the cockpit and cabin crews. Shouldn't the captain be able to handle situations and crew members to ensure safe flights for all? If captains have the "I am God attitude" doesn't sound like much of a leader but more of a tyrant. Makes for troubling thoughts for passengers.

TSR2

31st Dec 2009, 08:25

Me thinks (or hopes) Yenaldlooshi's comments are very much tongue in cheek. Note his/her age and current occupation.

Johnny767

31st Dec 2009, 16:36

Remember, CRM stands for "Cockpit Resource Management!"

letterman

31st Dec 2009, 17:30

After inquiring...at United...they have a program for all Flight Personnal (cockpit & Flight Attendants) called, "CLR." "Command, Leadership Resource." This is a program that aides communication between the two groups. It does not take away captains authority but is in place so the the two groups can work together more easily, considering the climate of flying in this day and age, perfect example last week on Delta flight from Amsterdam. The Flight Attendants are the "eyes and ears" for the cockpit. From my, understanding, there is not a lot of "chest thumping" of, 'I am captain', but a much better working reletionship between the two groups. In this thread...I must say...there is quite a bit of the "chest thumping" attitude. And it sounds like much of it is from retired pilots. Many entries begin with, "when I was captain" or when I was flying" etc. Attitudes and times do change. Captains authority does not change but, how one handles that responsibility and exercises it says alot. In my opinion, if a captain lands an international flight because of a dislike/personality clash or whatever with a flight attendant...that appears to be a sign of a pilot who is not a skilled leader. After all, the captain, male or female, is the leader of the crew. I highly suspect that a "food tampering" issue was NOT at stake. If I read this thread correctly, the Purser was not removed from flying or suffered any negative consequences and that says alot right there. but the captain has not flown. While, I do believe that a captain has the right to land if he/she feels the necessity, this seems way out of proportion. If a captain that is in comand of an aircraft can't manange to continue to fly the remaing 2 hours to final destinaion after being in the air for over eight hours because of a problem with a flight attendant, I find concerning.It appears there was no imment medical emergency, threat to the crew or aircraft...if there was, by the Purser, would he have not been detained in Miami?! Apparently, none of these problems existed, therefore; I find the actions of this captain, "over the top" and that is more disturbing than anything.

iceman50

31st Dec 2009, 23:50

letterman

A friend of BoF are we.

Your "qualified" insight comes from what experience?

This has been done to death and the only people that know the real story are the Captain and the Chief purser.

It is not a democracy, the aircraft only has ONE commander.

niged

1st Jan 2010, 00:37

"This has been done to death and the only people that know the real story are the Captain and the Chief purser."

so baring this in mind letterman might have a point for goodness sake

parabellum

1st Jan 2010, 01:05

Well I think it would help if Letterman had taken the time and trouble to both read and comprehend all of the previous posts before making any comment.

Clearly he hasn't bothered, or has 'skimmed' and missed some very salient points already made and answered. Cityfan made several points worth considering.

letterman

1st Jan 2010, 04:40

Yes, I have read the posts on this thread. I have more than skimmed them, after being told about it"s existence from a friend of mine, a pilot at United Airlines. I stand by my observations. There seems to be a straight forward approach to this situation. The captain chose an action, the flight attendant did not suffer any consequences and the pilot is not flying. From what i read these are facts. Anything else seems to me, to be speculation.

martinmax69

1st Jan 2010, 04:56

I was hoping this thread would die.
Around and around again.
Nothing new.
Please, no more feeding.

Rainboe

1st Jan 2010, 07:35

letterman, I don't think people are prepared to take such pronouncements of opinion from an unknown newbie with no history who makes no mention of experience or expertise in the industry. So I suggest you shut it. For all we know, you could be a teenager flipping burgers for a living. This is not a place for everyone in the world to make a pronouncement- it is supposed to be where industry professionals come together to discuss matters. That goes for niged as well. The only reason there is access in R&N is because it is impractical to physically restrict access to experienced professionals, but comments from completely unknowns who don't even have the courage to put their experience down are not taken a lot of notice of....especially when they have plainly not bothered reading the whole thread!

Bealzebub

1st Jan 2010, 12:37

While new to this thread

Oh come off it B.O.F The only thing new to this thread is the username you are using. Too many "tells". I can accept you would have a different viewpoint, but you are starting to lose credibility by morphing in this manner.

niged

1st Jan 2010, 13:14

"So I suggest you shut it"

You seem proud of your badge of honour mr rainboe "toxic".
Do you speak to people like that at work also?

Rainboe

1st Jan 2010, 13:27

Most professionals are tired of ill-informed comment being made by everyone who thinks they are a sudden instant expert on CRM, command authority, running an aeroplane moving at 600mph and human factors. This place is a discussion forum for professionals, not an 'everybody who has something to say, chip in- the more opinions the better!' forum, particularly when they obviously haven't followed the whole discussion. That is why the same old menial points keep being raised as a 'new discovery'. You and letterman (whose aviation qualification is having a 'pilot friend at United') feel qualified to join in at a late stage and offer your opinion. Why should anybody listen to you? What expertise do you have? 2 posts, no bio- what makes you think your opinion has any validity? Some would say only the people who have worked this life have any opinion worth listening to! I did, and have done, for 38 years. I don't think you have any valid opinion worth reading.

TIMA9X

1st Jan 2010, 13:32

This is not a place for everyone in the world to make a pronouncement- it is supposed to be where industry professionals come together to discuss matters.

Have to agree with Rainboe, his contributions to this website have been outstanding, not always agree with him, may be he is misunderstood by some (including myself sometimes) but his experience and knowledge regarding current aviation matters are always an interesting read and to the point.

Also agree with martinmax69,I was hoping this thread would die.
Around and around again.
Nothing new.
Please, no more feeding.

there is not much more that can be said on this matter other that the Captain is the boss. (in my view)

by bearfoil: There is not a hint of anything from the Company, or the crew involved. I expect there will be none. Done, are we?

Yep, let's hope so!

niged

1st Jan 2010, 13:52

A bit more measured this time, thankyou!
You may have a point there but telling people to shut it
is only going to inflame matters and I was quite happy to be
quiet untill you in all your abundant all knowing wisdom decided
to be quite so rude. If you want less posts by non aviation
related professionals you could start by being less rude.

Thankyou

wozzo

1st Jan 2010, 15:22

Have been following the thread for a long time, and I thought lettermans post was a very reasonable assessment of thread and incident. Reactions from professional "chest thumpers" kind of validate his post.

letterman

1st Jan 2010, 15:47

I don't feel it matters whether I'm in your profession or not. As a frequent passenger, I have a vested interest in what happens with crews on airplanes! Your rude not to mention crude approach is more in line with the 1940"s and Hitler. I hope you're retired, you're not a benefit to any airline ot the passengers it carries.

747JJ

1st Jan 2010, 16:08

I've got a vested interest what happens in the operating room and operation conducted by a surgeon, yet I know bloody nothing about the matter and mostly understand when to shut my gob to hide my ignorance on matters medical.

Rainboe

1st Jan 2010, 16:46

That surgeon thing is a good analogy. Having every Tom, Dick and Harry blunder in with a opinion on what was going on in that aeroplane and how inter crew relationships should be conducted is akin to me going into a medical forum, not reading the threads, and passing an opinion on the operating theatre surgeon's relationship with the staff and how he speaks to them and what his personality is! I don't do that, why do non aviation professionals feel they can come in here and give us the benefit of their (zero) experience, and have the arrogance to start criticising a captain's alleged conduct?

That seat can be very isolated sometimes. Low fuel, bad weather, technical faults.....add on prima donna crew- it can be very difficult sometimes. If an experienced captain makes a decision, his motives should be listened to. He can conduct himself, within reason, how he likes, as long as he does the job right. So all the 'shoot from the hip' judgements about his alleged conduct are worthless. It is not a popularity contest. Like the surgeon in an operation, he has the ultimate authority to conduct it as he sees fit, and if the surgeon cancels out during the procedure, he's doing it from the basis of his experience. Some of you should remember that. It is not a home judgement of his decision on your remote control: 'press red button if you think he was right, blue button if you think he was wrong!' If United decide his decision was not valid, they will handle it. We don't need idiot laymen here ponderously deciding the outcome on minimal information. We all know most surgeons probably have buried a few of their poor decisions, but somehow some of you are looking (and hoping!) at this as a career termination matter. A safety decision was made, nobody was hurt, and the passengers continued with minimal delay. On that plane it might have felt serious, though safety was not compromised. Off that plane, it was a storm in a teacup, nothing more.

Some of you need to keep out of this matter!

Old School Flyer

1st Jan 2010, 19:41

Who are the "we" that you have elected yourself to speak for exactly, niged? Yes, you are allowed to come on here and post about a subject that you have no experience in whatsoever and no real knowledge. Because you have been a PAX, does that give you any credibilty to be speaking with such certainty about a subject that you have not been trained in, educated in and have no experience in? You think that makes your opinion (and that is all it is) valid? (My comments apply to letterman as well and others).

You think that you have the right to comment on a profession and dress down Professional Pilots on this forum? When you show a total lack of understand and respect for what all Pilots must endure and what they have sacrificed to get to their position with any carrier, you not only demean them, but you demean yourself. If you had a clue of the education, all the licenses, the ratings, the expense, the sacrifice, the struggles and the total committment, talent, hard work, the years and determination required just to get to first base at an Airline, you would not make such off-hand flippant remarks here.

Those of us who flew in the glory days and then lived through the strikes and walked the lines, deregulation, 9/11 and the demise of our once great industry have walked the walk and talked the talk. You have not.

Those of us who made it to the left seat and have coped with a plethora of issues with our carrier, i.e. bankruptcy, lowering of pay, crumbling pensions, greedy CEOs, and hundreds of other negative changes to our profession that would fill this entire forum, is ON TOP OF being a Pilot In Command. You will never be able to comprehend being in charge of and responsible for thousands of lives, multi-million dollar A/C, your crews, or having often, mere minutes to deal with all the issues that can and do arise with the operation of the A/C, WX, the Crew, the PAX and more, unless you have been there. You will never know the stress, the fatigue, the pressure, the never ending vilgilance, the responsibility, or the daily enduring sacrifice that Pilots experience and the obligation and personal resolve that they make to do the best damn job that they can, each and every day that they fly you off to see your Grandmother.

The Captain has the first, the last and the final responsibility. The joy, the fulfillment of his dreams, the satisfaction, the pride and the burdon, the accountability and the onus are on his shoulders. He is where the operation of the A/C and all of it's entities come together. No human being is perfect. When faced with a difficult situation in which there are several options, look for the most conservative solution. Everyone is subject to making an error in judgement. If you make a mistake, you admit it, correct it, learn from it and move on and resolve to always do better. Never be afraid to seek advice from others. You will not always have the answers. What you will always have, is the responsibility for making all the final decisions, as the Captain. Your quest for excellence never ends. That desire comes from you and you alone.

So when you come on here with such a certain and arrogant know-it-all attitude, and believe you have a legitmate opinion about a subject of which you have neither the education, background, training, knowledge of, true understanding or experience in, you really don't. I am not slamming you nor starting a fight with you or anything of the sort. I am however, trying to educate you.

I have been a reader of this forum for awhile and just recently, a poster. I see a lot of this nonsense going on between the "public" and the Professional Pilots. I felt an obligation to try and explain for you, why this is an issue for many Pilots, in the hope that you might be able to begin to get a grasp of what we mean and how we feel.

If you had come here to ask a polite question or make a comment that has not already been made and rehashed a dozens times already, or if you had really bothered to read this thread throughly and tried to comprehend the posts before commenting, and if you had even begun to realize the limited scope of your actual knowledge, you would have been greeted in a much different and more positive way. I really resent such cavalier and ignorant behavior on here just because anyone on the planet is allowed to post. Along with that freedom should come some semblance, insight and recognition of your own limitations in doing so and not the degradation of Pilots who do know and understand what they are speaking of.

Wiley

1st Jan 2010, 20:22

Don't hold back, Old Schoolie, tell her what you really think!

-----

Seriously, there's a modicum of truth in what Rainboe and Old School Flyer are saying here, and, as unpalatable as it undoubtedly is to many who are reading and contributing to this thread, when it comes to operating an airliner, "it ain't a democracy" is the final rule of survival that every crewmember needs to understand.

Unless you believe "Capt Queeg's" actions are going to quite literally kill you, if you're not wearing the four bars yourself and (more importantly) have not been given the tech log to sign for that particular sector by your employer, you swallow your pride, take careful notes on all the unreasonable behaviour he's exhibiting to be acted upon later - and then, most importantly, get on with your job and submit a formal complaint after you and your crew have reached the destination.

In my experience, it's amazing, on most occasions, how, when you sit down after the flight and catalogue all that unreasonable behaviour, on paper and in the clear light of day, (which is where your bosses are going to be when they see it), it looks like the petty storm in a teacup the high emotions you feel at the time really are. ("He didn't pick up the document until 37 minutes after you you slipped it under the cockpit door? Really? 37 minutes... Tell me more.")

TIMA9X

1st Jan 2010, 20:24

By Old School Flyer Those of us who made it to the left seat and have coped with a plethora of issues with our carrier, i.e. bankruptcy, lowering of pay, crumbling pensions, greedy CEOs, and hundreds of other negative changes to our profession that would fill this entire forum, is ON TOP OF being a Pilot In Command. You will never be able to comprehend being in charge of and responsible for thousands of lives, multi-million dollar A/C, your crews, or having often, mere minutes to deal with all the issues that can and do arise with the operation of the A/C, WX, the Crew, the PAX and more, unless you have been there.

Says it all, I for one listen to the pilots who can put their career history and make strong points all in one post. I read and take note of what these guys have to say. I dip my hat to Old School Flyer and Rainboe as they have seen it all! These days they are under continuous pressure to be on time, use as little fuel as possible and deal with the traditional holiday period coupled with over stretched ATC delays. I too have read this thread over and over again, and completely agree with what Old School Flyer Rainboe BOAC and the many other pilots who can see why letterman bof and niged have set themselves up for a bit of firm but professional replies all for good reasons.
Again I quote bearfoil: There is not a hint of anything from the Company, or the crew involved. I expect there will be none. Done, are we?

A Comfy Chair

1st Jan 2010, 22:12

While I agree people should not be subjected to abuse, I can see why sometimes Rainboe takes the stance he does. I often do not agree with his views or his manner, however when people who have no experience nor expertise continuously attack the profession and the essential role of the Captain (mostly propogated by "empowering" CRM sessions that have got it all the wrong way around), I can see why people get a bit firey.

I, like many others, am sick of reading opinion on operational matters on a PROFESSIONAL forum from those who have clearly never been involved in the operation of an aircraft. Questions are fine... most of us are 'aviation people' and are happy to share that... but when it turns into a "No, all of you old Captains are wrong, this is how it must be done" by people who are not qualified to give that opinion, it is very offensive.

The surgeon example has been given a few times, but there are others - how many industries tolerate abuse and insulting comments from outsiders? I can't think of many.

Unfortunately, ignoring is not always an option. There are MANY young and upcoming aviators and other interested people reading these forums, and the professionals here just can not sit by and allow the drivel that comes out of some people's keyboards go unchecked. There is nothing more deadly than giving someone wrong information on a flight deck, and the same principle applies here - giving uninformed opinion as fact (like so many seem to do) is very bad for the industry and needs to be corrected.

I would repeat the calls of the others - if you have a genuine question, please do ask it. But do not pass off uninformed opinion as fact, and if you decide your tactic is to insult us by questioning the actions of a flight crew member without intimate knowledge of the role, then expect someone to bite back.

bearfoil

1st Jan 2010, 22:28

The debate has been rather 'loopish' for months, here. The information is lacking for a definitive or conclusive wrap up, and the delineated 'personal' positions are patent and predictable. Every incident is a chain; there are so many links missing here, the original post has lost all relevance. So much energy being lost in argumentative noise. This occurrence may end up an airborne myth, lasting generations. Degenerated into personal insults and claims of no standing, I frankly concede this post is Off Thread, but so what? What a Bitchfest. The pros gain no respect, and the ams gain no stature.

bear

belfrybat

2nd Jan 2010, 01:56

Now that I think about it, those 37 minutes seem a bit strange. Not "over 30 minutes", not "about 40 minutes", but precisely 37 minutes. Can it be supposed that she slipped the papers under the door, checked her watch and spent the next over a half hour keeping an eye on them? What was she doing in the meantime? :confused:

Wiley

2nd Jan 2010, 05:07

Well spotted, belfrybat. My point exactly.

Some US cabin crew used to wear a pin-on badge saying "I'm here to save your ass, not kiss it." That badge speaks volumes about their attitude to service to their customers - and by extension, their tech crew. (It's been my contention for many years now that if the cockpit crew aren't being looked after satisfactorily by the cabin crew, I can safely assume that the passengers aren't being looked after satisfactorily either.)

Yes, I accept that cabin crews are there to provide a vital and important job in the event of an emergency, that of saving passengers' lives. However, in the meantime, they're fulfilling a rather important commercial job as well, that of being the major point of contact for their employer with the customer and providing a service to their employer's customers. I think there'd be quite a few who'd agree that a substantial percentage of the US FA fraternity (or, more accurately, sorority), particular those of 'a certain age', have long forgotten that part of their job description.

If the purser in question was too busy to have the time to knock on the cockpit door and provide the documents the captain asked for face to face, but somehow had time to see that he - or someone - from the other side of the cockpit door didn't retrieve the document she left half under the door until 37 minutes after she had put it there, someone (like her line manager) reading her report in the clear light of day might be forgiven for asking how she (or some member of the cabin crew) spent the 37 minutes between her putting the papers under the door and that someone seeing they were retrieved.

misd-agin

2nd Jan 2010, 16:41

37 minutes? That they noted the exact time isn't necesarily unusual. It's not unusual for crews have elapsed time, or time remaining, running on timers, clocks, or their wristwatches, and to be aware of the time.

Eg, saying goodbye to passengers last trip and a F/A's watch alarm went off - "that's when we were supposed to land". She set a countdown timer because they had certain services to start with X time left.

When giving written reports sometimes the times I report are close estimates and sometimes the times are exact. It just depends if I, for whatever reason, was able to recall exactly when an event occurred.

parabellum

2nd Jan 2010, 22:38

If, as it was reputedly stated by the senior CC in question, she was too busy to bring these forms to the flight deck then it seems highly unlikely she would have time to note when she placed them under the door and note exactly when they were pulled in by FD crew.

It would help if we knew precisely what the CC did say/report, the 37 minutes could have been thrown in later by her colleagues or it could just be a guesstimate based on other events during the flight.

letterman

3rd Jan 2010, 05:56

Has anyone actually spoken to the lead Purser or has he posted anywhere on this situation?

violator

3rd Jan 2010, 10:02

This threads shows the diference between the perception of flight and cabin crew, their egos and reality.

Cabin crew don't exist for safety anymore, they exist to serve the customers. They are the waiters and waitresses at restaurants. The safety functions they provide are minimal. Even the active ones they do provide can be automated (eg door arming). Door opening and evacuation initialisation can, and has been, done by passengers. In fact there are many cabin crew around the world who almost never open doors, let alone open one in an emergency.

Indeed, the only apparent health and safety-critical tasks they do are food preparation and tending to ill passengers at the level of a Health Care Assistant. These are not skilled jobs.

As for flight crew, their role is being reduced to that of a shop manager. Certainly pilots are not equivalent to surgeons! They don't need a good degree, when they have degrees they are low-ranking three-year bachelors from low-ranking universities. There are people successfully flying large commercial aircraft in the UK with minimal training or experience. We are in a situation where crews can, and are encouraged, to sleep - without any harm resulting. Aircraft can fly themselves better, smoother, more efficiently than a human could, they can land themselves, soon they will taxi themselves and soon they will take off without crew control input. The aircraft can workaround problems, fix itself, diagnose itself, prognose itself and knows it's systems better than the crew. The majority of accidents are still caused by flight crew mistakes. The flight engineer has been successfully removed from the flight deck, the first officer will be next.

We live in modern times. Technology is making pilots redundant. A population with increasing intelligence and improved tehnology is making safety-related cabin crew redundant.

This incident was the result of egos that were too large given their relative contribution. This thread shows that many are so on awe of their own ego that they don't realise the inevitable: market forces having already started to make their jobs unnecessary and will make them totally un-needed shortly.

parabellum

3rd Jan 2010, 10:50

We live in modern times. Technology is making pilots redundant. A population with increasing intelligence and improved technology is making safety-related cabin crew redundant.

market forces having already started to make their jobs unnecessary and will make them totally un-needed shortly.

Whilst I can accept that technology will one day be able to carry out most of the tasks involved in getting a passenger aircraft from A to B I don't accept that they will ever become pilotless. The simple reason is security, imagine the mayhem if dedicated terrorists took over a ground control station, either by force or by jamming a ground station with powerful equipment, the resulting carnage would be worse than a world war.

As for flight crew, their role is being reduced to that of a shop manager. Certainly pilots are not equivalent to surgeons!

And no one has suggested that they are, only that it seems a lot less likely that people with little or no specific knowledge of medicine would dare to cast aspersions on a medical forum compared to the many, similarly unknowledgeable of aviation, that frequently come to an aviation forum such as PPRuNe for just that malevolent purpose, your post here being a classic example.

violator

3rd Jan 2010, 10:55

Whilst I can accept that technology will one day be able to carry out most of the tasks involved in getting a passenger aircraft from A to B I don't accept that they will ever become pilotless. The simple reason is security, imagine the mayhem if dedicated terrorists took over a ground control station, either by force or by jamming a ground station with powerful equipment, the resulting carnage would be worse than a world war.

Why would control be centralised, or even based on the ground?

And no one has suggested that they are, only that it seems a lot less likely that people with little or no specific knowledge of medicine would dare to cast aspersions on a medical forum compared to the many, similarly unknowledgeable of aviation, that frequently come to an aviation forum such as PPRuNe for just that malevolent purpose, your post here being a classic example.

There are two differences. Firstly, medicine is a wide-ranging field. Lay people (and even medical professionals) don't have a wide-ranging knowledge of medicine. Aviation, on the other hand, is relatively simple.

Finally, it seems that yet again the assumption is made that if you don't agree with a certain clique here then you're branded as someone 'unknowledgable of aviation' - without even checking if I work in the industry!

parabellum

3rd Jan 2010, 11:12

Yet clearly you came to this forum to have a dig at pilots and CC. I suspect you may be an engineer and pilots are usually very wary about offering opinions to engineers.

No matter where you put control of pilotless aircraft it will be vulnerable and airborne control is likely to be more expensive than pilots. It will never happen.

I am glad you find aviation relatively simple, fortunately most aviation professionals don't and work at it to maintain a very high standard of professional competence.

lowcostdolly

3rd Jan 2010, 11:37

Violator.....seldom have I seen such an opinionated post from one who apparently knows nothing about either the Pilot or CC role.

Firstly can I admit to not having read every post on this thread or was I onboard this plane at the time of the incident. I therefore consider myself uninformed on this aspect. The only thing I have an opinion on is the alledged conduct of the PU. IMHO it was disgusting and had the potential to compromise safety. The crew dec incident is indicative of a much bigger picture I feel and I also feel the Captain recognised that. I don't know that as I wasn't there.

There is no place for ego's on a plane. There doesn't need to be. It's why we have a chain of command. At my mob it goes on a non training flight:

Captain
SFO/first officer
Senior cabin Crew Member (thats me)
Cabin Crew. My deputy is the person whom I consider appropriatly experienced to take over my duties should the need arise and manage the rear of the plane.The buck stops with the Captain as the aircraft commander...end of. A commercial jet is not a democracy. I am technically "in charge" of the cabin but anything that affects the safe operation of the flight either actual or potential gets passed through that door and we discuss it. It is a command decision as to what is done.

That said our commanders will listen to their crews and evaluate the info given to them by the people actually in the cabin. That applies to whether it is a crew member or a pax and is called CRM. It is based on mutual respect and effective communication amoungst other things....none of which seemed in evidence on this flight.

Your comments regarding the role of CC I will ignore as they are beneath contempt.

As for our "shop managers"? Well the last time I looked my local manager at Tesco's couldn't land a plane on the Hudson River saving over a hundred lives and yes he does have a degree. I wonder if "Sully" did?

I don't think "sully" used the computer either......he did it all by himself because that is what he is trained to do.

If the computer had landed that plane (if indeed it could be programmed in those circumstances) there may well have been a different outcome........I could stand corrected by that by a Pilot which I'm sure you are not.

The day we ever take our people away from the pointy end will be the day I never fly again.

747JJ

3rd Jan 2010, 12:04

Lowcostdolly. Nice post. I was going to comment Violators post but you got to it before me. Well put nuf said.

Gipsy Queen

3rd Jan 2010, 18:38

Thank you, OSF, for reminding a long-retired flyer (multi-engine 1948) of the half-forgotten sacrifices and commitments needed to reach the port side seat.

The responsibilities were onerous enough in my day - it takes an unusually special person to effectively command in today's climate. I remember becoming somewhat tongue-tied with nervousness as I greeted the 15 or so passengers with what I hoped was a cheery "Good morning, everyone" as I ascended the aisle to the Lodestar cockpit and hoping that a mag drop would not spoil everyone's day. Weather and engines were pretty well all we had to worry about. There's no way I could ever cut it now, even if I was 25 again.

Sadly, being a PAX in the security-driven paranoia attendant upon current air travel also requires unusual facets of character but that's something different.

Others should consider your comments and reflect before rushing into print with the control locks in - like wot I have done . . .:rolleyes:

mizwings

4th Jan 2010, 11:59

@ based on facts

re: post 140 and 153 .....

We, the crew told the Purser that we indeed wanted to walk off with her for several reason. Support, loyalty and we did not feel safe with a captain who made such a poor judgement call and was displaying such erratic behavior. Thanks to our Purser who displayed concern for our welfare and showed us what professionalism truly is, she asked us to continue on to ORD as the plane had to get there, the passengers needed to get there and she did not want us to suffer any potential negative repercussions. She was concerned about the passengers and crew alike...unlike the captain, who basically needed to feed his ego. Hope he enjoyed it as it cost him his career!!
To be on an aircraft as a crew member and not to feel safe with the captain in charge is a very terrifying feeling and you feel very vunerable with absolutely no control. Thanks to the efforts of our Purser, we were able to "keep it together" until we landed.

:eek: If I ever felt that way about a skipper or any other crew member for that matter I would most def have done what I could to ensure the flight did not continue with said skipper in control of the aircraft. Passenger safety would have been foremost in my mind, not my crew losing their jobs etc ...... just a thought :hmm: