Continental Express pilots having landing problems in Quebec City

[PaulBnv]

A local newspaper reports that Continental Express does more go arounds flying into CYQB in bad weather than any other airlines, sometimes being the only ones not to land.

Here is a Google translation, from French:

Google Traduction (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cyberpresse.ca%2Fle-soleil%2Factualites%2Fjustice-et-faits-divers%2F200911%2F26%2F01-925499-les-pilotes-de-continental-airlines-perdent-des-plumes-a-quebec.php&sl=fr&tl=en)

Do you guys have any idea about why that is?

Is it lack of experience? Different training? Continental Express is also the only airline that flies Embraer ERJ's into this airport. Are these planes harder to land in bad weather than the Bombardier CRJ's used by other airlines?

Many thanks,

Paul (long time lurker)

[Obbie]

Average age of a Captain at Jazz - 47 with 15,000 hours

Average age of a Captain at CE - 26 with 3,000 hours

Draw your own conclusions.

[777AV8R]

Too many accidents have been caused by pushing the situation. It appears that the Continental pilots have developed a 'culture' based on 'If it doesn't look/feel right', Go Around! And good for them!

And why shouldn't you?

[cheeky cough]

I believe it is more to do with a few non precision approaches that are frequently used in CYQB . I believe that their aircraft equipment or lack there of and FOM, limit Continental Express from doing them.

:)

[clunckdriver]

Cant speak for Quebec, but in Ottawa some of the American second and third tier outfits have been known to go back to the USA rather than do an NDB when the ILS was down, just one of the many reasons I wont step foot inside any American feeder.

[Willie Everlearn]

Our American colleagues are trained to fly an 'overlay' just like most other "glass" operators. Jazz guys and gals know it as the SCDA. The ERJ135/145 every bit as capable as the CRJs, Boeings, Airbuses, you name it.
VNAV guidance for a NPA is too easy. Much easier than the old 'dive and drive' NPA. Highly unlikely a BC, VOR, or NDB has anything to do with it.
NPA proficiency, or lack of proficiency is not a likely reason for missing as the NPA is required on all 61.48s AND in Continental Expresss' case, a 121.441.
10,000 hours versus 3,000 hours is a non-starter. Continental Express out of the NE has just as many bad weather days as YQB or any other Canadian airport for that matter.
As for the stat itself, some months you're up, and some months your down. Never shy away from a missed approach when it's called for. That's why we brief it.

Willie :ok:

[777AV8R]

You hit the mark, Willie!

[leslat]

I was number 2 in approach behind those guys. Here are the facts that you can verify by listening to the ATC tapes.
Winds were barely over 10 knots from the west, night time with a broken ceiling of around 1300 feet.
4 types of approach were available: RNAV 24 or vor-dme 24, rnav or ndb-dme 30 and ils 06.
According to the conversation, they were unable Rnav because their system was out of service.
Their plan was to go for ils 06 but they were concerned by the strenght of the wind (limitation of 10 knots tailwind)
Why not ils 06 then circling? I suppose it is forbidden by their ops manual.
They elected to shoot on 06 then ask for radar vector for 24 (good way to navigate trough the restriction of their ops manual!)
Now, why not vor-dme 24? That, I don't have an answer.
Good marks for those guys from me: they made it safely, they respected the regulations, they respected their ops manual, they respected their limits. I've seen too many pilots playing heroes with my family aboard.
Bad marks for CYQB International airports: an international airport without an ILS on the runway facing the predominant wind!!!

[ajet32]

Good thinking!

[777AV8R]

:ok: Precisely! No use playing heroes in this day. If in doubt, go around and think about it. No one should ever second guess a pilots' decision to go-around and get out of an unworkable situation.

There is no such thing as egos in this business. That type of thinking kills people.

Airlines that require a pilot to make a long winded 'pilot report' after a go-around are not helping the situation, either. The fact that the crew went around should be cause NOT to write up a 'miss, what this does is nurtures a culture of safety within the organization.

I have worked with one such airline that actually deletes any FOQA data up to the point of missed approach. A miss is considered good airmanship where a decision to land may actually compromise the safety of the flight.

..come sit in my CRM class

[Willie Everlearn]

ecoute

Never worry about the crew in front of you or the crew behind you. Whether or not they were/will be successful on a low viz takeoff or approach. Precision or non-precision. Low x-wind or hi x-wind. This is not how you make decisions or judge the results. Is it? :=

In the early 80s, an L1011 (heavy widebody) encountered turbulence and windshear on approach to Dallas. The result of that approach was disaster. :eek::eek::eek:

The aircraft immediately ahead was a Lear Jet. It landed safely. Accounting for wake separation, big difference in the results of both approaches. N'est pas? :sad:

Know your limits, especially if they don't fit your ops manual and, for whatever reason, you don't feel up to it on the day.

[stultus]

Obbie, the conclusion that I'd draw is that 100% of 96% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Continental Express is not an airline anymore, it's only a marketing tool, so I'm not sure which airline they are talking about here.

[PaulBnv]

About runway 24 not having an ILS: indeed that is strange. From my own observation the dominant wind from the West almost always becomes from the East in bad weather in Quebec City. I guess that's why they put the ILS on 06 first. I wonder if the ATC had not been privatised they would have a second ILS by now. The article says Nav Canada asked the airlines and they said they didn't need it.

About circling: I have heard/seen that only once in CYQB, from a CE pilot in fact, last summer. They did ILS 06 circling to 12. Didn't know one could circle all the way to 24. (I'm just a spotter.) The Jazz pilots requested "Contact" approaches to 06 that day.

[RWEDAREYET]

I can't say for Canadian operators, but most of the 121 operators in the US do not allow circling approaches unless the weather is VFR. The FAA will put a VFR only circling approach restriction on your type rating unless you do the training and checking in the sim.

Being a cost driven industry, most of the airlines have decided not to provide the training or checking to have the restriction removed. Not saying this is true for every operator, but it is true for many.

Just my two cents.

[Flexable]

Come on the YQB and YOW airport sped millions of $$ upgrading their terminals buildings but little was done to improve the approach/navaids facilities.
Can anybody tell me why the contry capital airport is not fitted with cat 2 ILS approach/runway?

[planett]

Approaches, lighting and runways will always take a back seat to statues, waterfalls, and terminals that operate like shopping malls. The real money is in attracting the highest paying renters to your property. Jetloads of passengers are coming anyway, no need to spend a few million on ILS's when Airport Improvement Fees are earmarked for terminals and parking lots.

We wanted everything to be run like a business in Canada, airport authorities included, now they bend to the will of the most influential players.

[Willie Everlearn]

...a Cat II ILS in Ottawa???
who the h*ll is big enough or important enough to require access to/through Cat II approaches?
...and how many times (days that is) a year would this facility be needed?
and is CYOW 'really' an international airport?
Gimme a food court anyday and I'll sit out the delay there.

Swiss Chalet anyone? :ok:

[Obbie]

Extra dipping sauce for me please !!!!!!