Professional Pride

[Neptunus Rex]

"Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots."

Ladies and gentlemen; enough is enough. I have been mortified by the brouhaha over the Norfolk Island ditching. The wannabes and the puerile can vent their spleens on other sites or fora; please let us keep the ethos of PPRUNE Rumours & News as stated above.

I know that this has been raised before, and not without good cause, but our once venerated site has been humbled by the illiterati and incognoscente who pretend to be our professional peers.

I suggest that the Rumours & News forum be the unique preserve of aviation professionals who are willing and able to provide our long-suffering Mods with their credentials, such as:

ATPL
CPL with 1,500 hours
Flying Instructor Class 2+ with 1,500 hours
Military aircrew, second tour
ATCO with three years experience
LAME (or equivalent) with three years experience

It would be up to our Mods to decide, but let us have at least one forum where the crass comments of tyros are simply not allowed.
One more point. There should also be a 'Three Strikes and Out' rule. Anyone who submits an unacceptable post would have it deleted by the venerable Mods. The third such deletion would attract a ban for a considerable time.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/please.gif

[JW411]

It will never happen but it would be absolutely wonderful.

[BOAC]

NR - a much floated (NPI) and noble idea, but which post/thread on R&N has prompted this mortification?

[glad rag]

Is this an annual thing?

[GearDown&Locked]

After making an educated guess (searched pprune hehe) I think it's probably this one (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/396269-merged-pel-air-westwind-ditching-off-nlk.html)...

glad_rag, it's like the flu - the usual one I mean.. :{

[Jetdriver]

You're right, it won't happen because it is simply not workable.

We do try very hard, and around the clock, to keep the Rumour & News forum as a front page forum for Topics and News that are of headline status, or are particularly relevant to a broad cross section of professional pilots.

Sometimes that means leaving a topic to see how it develops balanced against removing or moving those topics that their authors feel deserve the widest audience irrespective of the reality. On top of that we have dozens of specific forums that were created to host particular topics, and although they may not command the highest audience figures, they are nevertheless the natural locations for many topics.

We have a few restricted forums, where membership is by application and qualfication. The private airlines forums are just that. However the reality is, that the content of those forums shows no great leap in overall quality, and indeed the limited membership results in a very weak uptake and usage. If our front page forum were to be subject to the criteria, it would both fail to satisy the peception and it would fail to be our front page forum.

As a forum for the combination of news, discussion, rumours and opinion we try and restrict the general headline thread content to those subjects that have the best combination of professional pilot current interest, Newsworthy interest, contributory discussion, global importance, and anything else that may be deemed worthy of "front page" prominance. These editorial decisions are often easy to arrive at, but sometimes they provoke far more back room discussion than many would appreciate. When a particularly busy thread is born out of a very high profile event, we will usually have a host of moderators removing every irrelevant or sidetracking post simply to keep the subject mangeable. Despite this on a thread such as the AF447 thread, the post count went to over 2 million in a couple of weeks. However when that thread degenerated into little more than discussion between the same half dozen contributors it was moved to another forum. In a dynamic world, as something happens to bring the subject to the fore again, it can be moved back to R&N as appropriate.

It is never going to be perfect, or even close to it. The site is largely open to anybody, and whilst we will continue to edit and steer the forums to provide the best product from the raw material to the intended target audience, it has to be appreciated that access is open to the widest audience and as infurating or irritating as that might be from time to time, it does provide the widest range of source material and global interest. The site is popular and widely read. We understand that is a result of compromise, and that compromise is something we are very conscious of, and debate endlessly. Restricting access would do nothing other than kill the usefulness and certainly the global interest in the site.

Finally, this isn't a subject relevant to our front page forum either, and it will be moved sooner rather than later. Nevertheless it is worth pointing out from time to time that we do often agree with criticism that is levelled, but sometimes it is also necessary to point out the wider picture.

(In fact in the time it took to type this reply it has been moved.)

[tail wheel]

Yes JD, the Dunnunda Mods also agree with the criticism, but restricting forum access to "qualified professionals" is not the solution.

The PPRuNe Forums you read are not "PPRuNe policy", Danny, the Mods or Admins or our personal bias - they are the direct product of user input.

Sometimes I want to beat my head against the wall in frustration with some posts. And if we remove or edit an inappropriate post we cop an abusive PM or email!

My pet hates:


Fatal accident thread - endless condolence posts from users who never new the pilots or company involved.

Norfolk Island thread - who cares and what does it have to do with aviation that the guy featured in Cleo, Playboy, Mechanics Illustrated or Beano comics?

"I have a CPL - where do I find a job?" Do a forum search and get off your @ss and go look!!!

"Which flying school" or "Is Fred Nurk's Flying Circus a good flying school?" Do a Forum search and get off your @ss and go talk to the schools and look around!!!

"Anyone know a good aviation tax accountant?" You ask pilots about accountants? :{ :{ You believe a pilot's assessment of an accountant you'd believe anything! Try asking a politician or the Packers - they probably pay less tax than the rest of us!

"Should I do an aviation degree?" No, of course not, stupid! Go and do a medical degree or study law and become a politician - that is where the real money is!

Naming individuals. We have over a million page views each day. Would you want your name up in lights on PPRuNe for all to see?

One line "Agreement" posts - e.g. "Yes, I'd agree with that."

Those in love with the sound of their own keyboard and repetitiously post worthless dribble.

Users with multiple user names who continually either debate or agree with them selves. Get urgent medical treatment for your schizophrenia! Remember, you are not fooling the Mods. We can see each poster's IP address, compare and search IP addresses and trace IP addresses back almost to a suburban address.

Malicious libel posts from "anonymous" users. No, you are not anonymous. We record all IP addresses and you can be traced to your front door very easily - as others have learned to their peril and personal expense.

The 150 hour CPL "expert". I almost choke on my coffee with the "professional opinion" on technical issues by those who have only earned a license to learn! I often wonder at the standard of Australian flying schools. We have very high time, experienced professional pilots and engineers who post on PPRuNe - learn from their competant comments. Better to post nothing than post and everyone knows you are a fool!

Spelling police. We're not all perfect but how about you leave the editing to the Mods?

Qantas, Qantas, Qantas, Qantas....... The Australian aviation industry is not just Qantas. "Qantas did a go-around at Adelaide this morning. Anyone know why?" Yes, I do. The Captain made a command decision in accordance with SOPs. End of thread!

The childish bitching and hand bag slapping by some obviously immature and bitter QF CC. As a group you have been tossed out of Dunnunda and CC Forum and are currently back in Dunnunda under sufferance. You give yourselves, your colleagues, your airline and the industry a bad name. If yiou don't like Qantas or being a CC - have the guts to get another job you do like!!!

"Qantas only pay me $55,000 per annum as a new Dash 8 FO". Whoopy-do! Graduate accountants start around $35k per annum after four years of self funded study. Your colleagues and union voted in your EBA - I had nothing to do with it. Two choices: Ask for more money if you think you are worth it; or get a job that pays more. Simple!

Repetitious allegation of Mod bias simply because we edit a post, close or remove a thread etc. If that were fact, I must be on the payroll of every airline in Australia! I've never worked for or had any connection with any major Australian domestic or international airline and have no allegiance to any airline or aviation operator. Indeed, I have not been employed in the aviation industry for seven years.

"Is flying a profession or a trade?" Neither. It is a job and vocation like any other. Get your head out of your @ss and understand you are no different to any other working Australian. Like pilots, ship's captains, bus drivers, tour guides, police and taxi drivers all wear epaulettes. Why are you any different or better?

There are many other types of post which frankly, are nothing more than a waste of band width and do not belong on PPRuNe. I'm sure the other two Dunnunda Mods will agree and add their pet peeves.

Do you think the three Dunnunda Mods volunteer many hours of our time every day, unpaid, just to be abused for our decisions by disaffected users? Why shopuld we cop Danny's wrath over declining forum standards when it is the result of a very small minority of users whose fathers got into the gene pool when the life guard wasn't watching?

I have a big red BAN button just waiting for your next shot over my bows! :ok:

The Mods have often discussed screwing down the posting standards in Dunnunda. If that is what the majority want, we're more than happy to oblige!!! :E

But don't be surprised or complain if you find you can't access a thread, the Dunnunda Forum or PPRuNe.

And if you are not a professional pilot, engineer or airline/aviation industry employee with something constructive to add, HERE (http://www.totallyfreecrap.com/2008/09/19/free-crayons-and-coloring-book/) is just the site for you! :}

[dogcharlietree]

Crikey. I had better have a cup of tea, a bex and a good lie down. I agreed with a mod. Well said Tail Wheel. :ok::ok::ok:

[Keg]

I agree with Tail wheel! :E :}

[Oxidant]

I agree with Tail wheel!

Agreed, even if it falls foul of item #7 on your list!:E:}

[Mr. Hat]

Great post Tailwheel. I must admit I've been guilty of a few of the above. Now I know what not to do!

This is gold.
Users with multiple user names who continually either debate or agree with them selves. Get urgent medical treatment for your schizophrenia! Remember, you are not fooling the Mods. We can see each poster's IP address, compare and search IP addresses and trace IP addresses back almost to a suburban address.

I've never worked out why someone would go to the effort to make other tags.

The childish bitching and hand bag slapping
Gold.

Just an idea I'm sure you've discussed it before but why not ban based on actual IP numbers? I suppose this does penalise the 4 other pilots living in the same house but it will make your life easier! I think the news websites do this.

[tail wheel]

.....why not ban based on actual IP numbers?

Simple. You have a dynamic IP address allocated by .iinet.net.au each time you log on (yes, I know where you live! :E). If we banned your current IP address 124.xxx.xx.xx next time you logged on and were allocated a new IP address, you would avoid the ban. And someone else allocated that IP address at log on would be banned!

If we banned your ISP, iinet.net.au we would also ban other users who use that ISP.

Thinking of one particular serial pest connected to that ISP, that may not be a bad idea!!! :E :E

And no, Mr Hat can not be traced from the information I've given in this post. Mods releasing personal details is a cardinal sin, worse than lusting after your Mother-In-Law. :=

[troppo]

So why don't you just 'out' some of the clowns or their street addresses so it becomes a self imposed ban because their peers think that they are idiots?
It's probably a bit harsh but it never hurt to make an example of someone :E

[tail wheel]

I received a PM only this week:

After giving it much thought, I have decided to end my years of being a Member of PPRuNe, both as XXXXXXX and as you know Xxxxx too, it is just not the same any more, too many nut cases, I think most of the Pilots I worked with for decades have left.

I tried to sort of cancel my Membership but cannot see how to do it, could you PLEASE?

Thank you for your help over the years,

Best regards,

That is an old timer, respected for his input to PPRuNe and due for his ten year PPRuNe gold watch, wanting to quit due to "....too many nut cases,..."

I sincerely hope I've talked him out of quitting PPRuNe. This forum would be a poorer place for his absence.

Why should we let the morons run the assylum, to the detriment of those who have earned the right to be here?

[tail wheel]

I see you aren't in Fiji at present troppo? :}

No, a Mod can "not" out any user, for any reason, to anyone, at any time. User details are sacrosanct.

We protect our users, whether moron or genius.

[boardpig]

I can't disagree with anything that’s been said here. I've followed many a thread here during which the first 3 or 4 posts have been relevant, then the chest beating and stupidity starts and you're left wondering how these morons even got enough cells together to get to a testing centre, let alone pass atpl exams.
Why don't they realize that they are creating an impression of the industry to others which is far less than complimentary. By attacking each other for all to see it almost illustrates what is fundamentally wrong with aviation as a career choice these days, these guys are supposed professionals?

Anyhoo, here is my solution to the issue. Write a little app (active x etc) which will run each time you visit the site. This app will take the mac address of the NIC and construct a table of three strikes vs mac address. Then the numpty can be prevented from using that pc for posting here if their 3 strikes are up. Yes they can use another pc, but I reckon they'd get tired of that soon enough.

Yes a wild and wacky idea... (or is it :E)

BP
(and yes I know you can spoof a mac address too :ugh:)

[Brian Abraham]

I suggest that the Rumours & News forum be the unique preserve of aviation professionals who are willing and able to provide our long-suffering Mods with their credentials
As much as I admire and agree with the intent of your suggestion Neptunus it's interesting the difference of opinions, and often heated exchanges, that can take place between folks who possess all the qualifications you list as prerequisites of entry. For example wandering into some of the threads with posts from employees of our premier carrier you could be mistaken for having wandered into a creche. And these are the people driving wide bodies? Look else where at the beating 411A gets whenever he voices an opinion, or Rainboe.

A vexatious problem, that to give the Mods their due, do an outstanding job, for which a medal should be struck. And I know I have tested their mettle.

[Mr. Hat]

I've been trying to come up with an idea but don't have anything really. Maybe the IT minded like boardpig will come up with a solution.

An idea i did have was to have a rewards system maybe. But I'm not sure if this will actually create more work. Say for example someone like ITCZ for example have "pprune contibutor" on their tag and the opposite for trolls. I don't know.. but i do know its getting harder to have a decent debate without it getting silly.

[breakfastburrito]

I see PPRuNE is powered by vBulletin, and this has the capability to add "User Reputation" (http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/main/vboptions_reputation) functionality. That way, users could rate each other.

[Tidbinbilla]

Tail Wheel,

you forgot:
Stupid threads between board mates which end up as "mutual admiration societies" stroking their egos, because their xyz aeroplane is better than the other bloke's abc :ugh: Penis envy guys, penis envy...........
People that, rather than search for an appropriate running thread to post in (or who would prefer to draw attention to themselves - "Hey! Breaking news!") start a new thread, making life for those that can be bothered using the search function hell.
Members that flame others because they don't possess the intellect to construct a valid argument.
Qantas Cabin Crew bitchfests. Oh, you already mentioned that, TW...I have a chuckle at the regular accusations of bias. I'm one of the mods who does work for an airline. It seems I'm always editing or deleting posts that are libellous or abusive toward airlines that are in opposition to the company I work for. :}

Some members here don't realise that one of the reasons this board was created was to bring like-minded people together in a friendly environment. If you scroll back through the past few years in D&G, you wouldn't think so!

Many of the original (and highly qualified/respected) members of D&G don't even bother posting here anymore, which seems to confirm TW's post regarding a long-termer wishing to cancel his membership. It's a pity when such a good place is taken over by small-minded, smart-arsed know it all's. :\

Such a shame. When I first joined back in '96, the tone in the D&G forums was completely different to what we experience here today. We always tried to help each-other out. Sure, there was "robust" discussion on some topics, but there was a sense of "community", which hasn't existed in D&G for some time.

Hopefully this thread will serve to get people to reconsider the way they conduct themselves in D&G.

TID.

[rmcdonal]

Tail Wheel
Excellent List.... now what can we talk about? :E

[Centaurus]

Interesting points made by Tailwheel and others on the multiple usernames. For some that have been contributing to Pprune for may years, it is not hard for employers to pick their style of writing and with a nudge nudge wink wink to the contributor tell him to lay off or risk a DCM. The adage that a prophet is never accepted in his own country, is true. A good post read by discerning readers overseas will often be rubbished by the local bogan clique on the Oz Pprune pages who readily recognise who the writer is.

I have no problem with those who elect to use a different name occasionally. Guilty as charged. For example, Dick Smith has the moral courage to use his birth name in all his posts yet the penalty for that is he gets unmercifully hammered just because he is Dick Smith. Would that occur if he slipped in another username instead in order to make a valid point for all readers to ponder? I doubt it.

I am sure those contributors that opt for multiple usernames would be happy to stick to one if there was a system on Pprune to entirely delete or archive old ones.

[777WakeTurbz]

Careful rmcdonal, thats almost a one line agreement! :E

Great Thread :ok:
With luck, this will help some of the users interact in a more professional manner and create a more informative environment for those who actually try and use it as such.

Err, Im not sure if I just broke one of the pet hates. Apologies in advance. :oh:

[Cypher]

Bring on the User Reputation function.. :ok:

It works on numerous other Bulletin boards, and I'm quite surprised it has not been implemented onto "The Pprune" earlier....

Even YouTube has a function to grade comments, maybe the same function on individual posts would work well... it would allow the 'community' to self-moderate to a degree....

[tail wheel]

We're not opposed to multiple user names. More than a few of us have "multiple personalities"! :E :E

To some, it is a highly amusing art form and gives me a chuckle when I see what appears to be multiple users, same IP address! :}

The vexatious, schrizophrenic morons that use multiple user names to argue with them in order to sensationalise a subject that has no interest to anyone else - and usually no right to be on PPRuNe - are the users I was referring to.

You are right about Dick Smith. I admire his courage in stating his opinion and using his own name; whether I agree or not with his opinion is entirely irrelevent. Not all users are able to use their own name due to employment and other constratints, something Dick occasionally overlooks. It is not a Mod's prerogative to express an opinion on the content of any post, nor do the opinions of others interfere with any action we take in Moderating a thread or forum - if I have a personal opinion I will post that using (one of :E ) my personal user names.

Because we take Moderator action on a thread or post, it is not a reason to believe we are influenced in any way or paid by Qantas, Virgin, Dick Smith, CASA et al! :=

[Dropt McGutz]

I remember an apology a couple of years ago but has anybody actually been sued from comments on PPRUNE?

[Propjet88]

I was quite intrigued by this thread which appeals for improvement in the level of professionalism on PPrune.

I have been a member since day 1 and under my current username for over 10 years. I am not a frequent poster but started a thread on "Airline Pilot - Trade or Profession" 6 days ago and to date there have been 68 replies - the vast majority of which have been edifying. There have been no examples of profanity nor any personal attacks. Amongst other things, the posters discuss the very relevant current issues associated with seniority systems vs DECs that are topical in light of the recent Virgin Blue DEC decision / thread.

The thread was specifically about airline pilots so I was a bit surprised to see it moved by the moderators to the GA forum. This caused some thread drift away from "airline pilot" to "pilot" but the tone remained sensible. Therefore, I was even more surprised to see that my topic is posted on the list of "HATES" of one of the moderators which is amplified by the moderator's statement on this thread.

QUOTE:
• "Is flying a profession or a trade?" Neither. It is a job and vocation like any other. Get your head out of your @ss and understand you are no different to any other working Australian. Like pilots, ship's captains, bus drivers, tour guides, police and taxi drivers all wear epaulettes. Why are you any different or better?
UNQUOTE. (my underlining)

Over 60 PPruners obviously thought that the topic was worth discussing politely and there is no mention of epaulettes, better / worse etc. A moderator obviously doesn't agree. I apologise unreservedly if my thread offended the moderator.

As an aside I mentioned in the other thread that a really good read is "Flying the Line - A History of USALPA" which reveals that seniority systems were introduced by airline management in the 1930s to control pilot mobility (i.e. leave and you start at the bottom). Another favourite book of mine is 1984 where oligarchy rules OK.

Fly Safe PJ

[airsupport]

Excellent posts ''tail wheel'', keep up the good work. :ok:

[Anthill]

Personally I return to prune to glean info from the very knowledgable people that exist here, work out how to filter the wheat from the chaff so to speak http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


True Owen..

However, I hold in distain the human lemmings in our industry who substitute rumours for truth with no regard for the consequences of their actions.

To some, I suggest that they read the Defamation Act, 2006 for a bit of an eye-opener. Of significance is that perpetuating a malicious falsehood leaves you just as open to damages as if you originated it.

Not only that, but the onus is on you to prove the truth of your statement not for the litigant to show that a damaging statement is false.

:ooh:

[tail wheel]

Propjet88. I responded to your PM. On re-reading my original post I probably did not express myself very well.

I did not object to your thread "Airline Pilot - Trade or Profession".

What concerned me was that it would attract that small minority, particularly amongst airline pilots, with big watches, big wallets and an ego to match, plus the young turks that wear their eppaulettes and wings to Maccas for a burger, who think the world revolves around them. By definition, commercial flying in all it's forms, is probably a professional vocation, in the same way aircraft maintenance and air traffic control is also a professional vocation.

When you commenced the thread, out of curiosity I checked the Dictionary:

Profession:

a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science:
any vocation or business:
the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling:


Trade:

any occupation pursued as a business or livelihood:
some line of skilled manual or mechanical work; craft:
people engaged in a particular line of business:


Your choice! :}

DG&P Reporting Points Airline and RPT issues in Australia, enZed and the Pacific is effectively our "front page". It is the appropriate forum for breaking aviation news and particularly airline news and credible newsworthy rumours. We don't want the front page forum bogged down with non news worthy issues.

DG&P General Aviation & Questions is the "inside pages" for GA matters plus all the non news questions and general interest items, whether airline or GA and the "general natter".

Your thread was by nature, a question, not a current news item.

...I hold in distain the human lemmings in our industry who substitute rumours for truth with no regard for the consequences of their actions.

I'd certainly agree with that! :ok:

[pithblot]

Pprune has certainly changed a lot over recent years. D&G, in particular, seems to have suffered at the hands of people who should probably spend their time elsewhere. I hope this is not an accurate reflection of our industry.

Maybe we should all go for a friendly drink together, and let Jake the Muss sort the wheat from the chaff.

Pprune warning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsStUicYQlA)

or

Pprune eviction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCHe-0w9KX8).

[The PM]

Tail Wheel
Excellent List.... now what can we talk about?

Macca:...beer of course!

:ok:

[Tidbinbilla]

Macca:...beer of course!

Get Back to Dubbo, that man! :}

[The PM]

Already did that, hence the requirement for and interest in beer......

:}

[Neptunus Rex]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have now had 37 posts on a topic without one rat-bag input, and with an injection of humour! My especial thanks to 'tail wheel,' 'Jetdriver' and 'Tidbinbilla' for taking the time and effort to explain the Mods inputs. The site is in good hands.

Chees!

Neppie

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/headphones3.gif

[Brian Abraham]

I thought it interesting that other forums here on Pprune regard Dunnunda as being where Rottweilers roam. Given that some of the worlds safety authorities regard the Oz safety record as being a result of their healthy disrespect of authority, I wonder if there is a connection.

[tail wheel]

I thought it interesting that other forums here on PPRuNe regard Dunnunda as being where Rottweilers roam.

I've heard Danny's opinion of Dunnunda Forums a number of times, but your description is far nicer! :}

It is probably true that over the years Dunnunda Forum has caused many problems for PPRuNe, however it is also probably true that a greater percentage of Australian aviation employees participate in PPRuNe than any other country. I think Danny recently suggested that between 25% and 33% of all visits to PPRuNe are from Australia and New Zealand.

[rmcdonal]

Its ok John I was keeping up your beer quota while you where away. :ok:

[GADRIVR]

""Mmmmmm:confused:....(sits up, wipes drool from chin, starts activating long dormant brain cells)...."could this be the beginning of something rather groovy?"...(farts, giggles then sits back to watch):ok:

Brian A....I will get back to you....just haven't had a chance.

[OpsNormal]

Yes Macca. Many of us have seen those pictures.... :ok:

I think Danny recently suggested that between 25% and 33% of all visits to PPRuNe are from Australia and New Zealand.

Wow, I had no idea! :ok:

[Pseudonymn]

How much of that 25-33% is to JetBlast? :E

[Jamair]

Hey Tailie, you would have to include "How do I write a Resume" on that hate list wouldn't you......:yuk:

I'm due for my 10-year gold watch in March next year; I'll be onto ya.....:}

[tail wheel]

Hey Tailie, you would have to include "How do I write a Resume" on that hate list wouldn't you......

Yes. I feel for that guy trying to make his resume stand out in the crowd, but this forum is not the place for advice. Googling "resume" is an excellent start.

March 4, 2010 will be your 10th anniversary. I believe the tradition is that you buy a slab for the Mods! :}

To correct something I posted earlier - Danny's actual comment was:

Australia/New Zealand is the 3rd busiest area for visits to PPRuNe (1st is UK and 2nd is USA). Recently we've been getting approx 218,000 visitors from Dunnunda a month.

Considering there is probably less than 20,000 pilots of all flavours in Australia and New Zealand, that statistic may reflect a very high participation rate?

[geeohgeegeeoh]

Nope. its not pilots. f'rinstance, I'm not a flight professional. I just lucked into this list from external references and I read it daily because its entertaining. I do 6-8 J class trips internationally a year, and I appreciate what is being thought behind the curtains and up the pointy end.

(I have no intention of ever posting again btw. As far as I'm concerned, getting to read you lot is sufficient privilege. It never ceases to amaze me people *stay* in the industry, the stress must be awful.)

[Pseudonymn]

geeohgeegeeoh,

Don't worry, I'm not a pilot either, although I have been mistaken for one in the past. :ooh: Apparently I'm good at parlour talking :}

[The PM]

It's all that bad company you keep......

:}:}

[Chocks Away]

Tailwheels' Point 3-"I have a CPL - where do I find a job?" Do a forum search and get off your @ss and go look!!!
:D:D:D
Amen
Also, re above, there's too much unrelated dribble and inane waste here. Go onto other more appropriate, "unprofessional" forums to waste your aimless time and banter please and save this for those in the industry with more to offer than waffle.

[billyt]

And 8 minutes after you wrote that chocks, you then posted on the Mike Pero thread a whole pile of what you suggest others don't.

[Swanrider]

Chocks Away commented on an current Aviation topic in NZ, which certainly wasn't "waffle" but cutting comment that tells it like it is, as far as I can see (well that's how I read it:))
Abit of bad luck then, if you don't like what or how it's said, billyt.

[billyt]

Just uninformed comment from him thats all.

[Pseudonymn]

tail wheel, thanks for clarifying that.

As for Chocks Away, why do I (or anybody, for that matter) have to justify my presence and very infrequent postings on this forum. If you work it out, it is less than 2 posts per month over the 8 & 1/2 years I've been here.

Maybe I should hand back my PPRuNe badge (yes, I really do have one!) and hang up my keyboard... :rolleyes:

[OpsNormal]

Also, re above, there's too much unrelated dribble and inane waste here. Go onto other more appropriate, "unprofessional" forums to waste your aimless time and banter please and save this for those in the industry with more to offer than waffle.

Does that include your own post Chocks? It adds nothing except a good whinge. Stop being precious. If you remember back to the original couple of years after Pprune became a BB after the email ring, it was the type of place that many thought of as similar to a bar/pub - that is a group of good friends/mates having a little bit of friendly cut and thrust. Those days became numbered of course with the first rash of major moderating around the '89 thread times.

No, this username is nowhere near my first either, the originals (ToppaDescent, BufordT etc) got lost along the way, which might be a good thing...:ok:.

[tail wheel]

ToppaDescent - registered 23 December 2000 - still current.

BufordT - no record. (Probably lost in the big PPRuNe melt down.)

[Horatio Leafblower]

So... is there a Husband/wife tag-team going on here or does one just have the log-on of the other? :}:E

[Jabawocky]

Jamair

How about ditch the Mods and a carton...... Just your shout at the Brekky Ck next time you are in town, last time was a good night out. And make it soon while Chuckles is here....coz he will want to be in on the action! :ok:

[Snatch]

I don't know but there is definitely (or as they say on PPRuNe, definately) something going on here. :hmm:

[OpsNormal]

Horatio, you know exactly what is what here (we don't share log ins) and you would be well aware Pprune is/was one way that many couples kept in touch when they were split-up by this industry, and again as we are now. The uses of Pprune run a lot deeper than many might think.:D

Thanks Taily, the member list doesn't appear to us mere mortals these days!:ok:

[teresa green]

And yet for all of the bitching and complaining, none of us cannot but heap phrase on the excellent forums such as the DC9 and the B727, the great forum on the return of the B707, so admidst all the sh^t there is also some great stuff posted, from Keg, Chimbo Chuckles, Wiley just to name a few. As in every community there is disention, personalities, why should Pprune be any different. Yes we are supposed to have half a brain, but then so should politicans, they actually run the joint, and after last week what more can I say. People will come and go, vent their spleens on the rest of us, some will agree, some will not. Aviation is a progressive business and changing rapidly, I belong to the past, but the past is what made it what it is today, and one day you blokes will be like me, glad and grateful for the job you had and enjoyed and tut tut over where it is all heading. So be grateful you are pilots (and engineers) be glad you are doing something you love and keeps a roof over your head, and safe flying. :D

[frigatebird]

Zen Teachings.. A few of my favourites..

1. Always remember you are unique. Just like everyone else.
2. Never test the depth of the water with both feet.
3. Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
4. Some days you are the bug; some days you are the windscreen.
5. Good judgement comes from bad experience.... and most of that comes from bad judgement.
6. Generally speaking, you aren't learning much when your lips are moving.

[teresa green]

And going on professionalism, who are the clowns who emailed such abuse, to a female journo in the Sunday Telegraph (page 28) who the week before, made a fairly harmless statement of why do pilots wear uniforms. (I would think it would be fairly obvious why) but to somebody not in the airlines perhaps it is a bit of a mystery. The article in the paper the week before was fairly tongue in cheek, but here we have pilots? giving names to accompany their abuse, to the said journo. I can only hope it was a bunch a young blokes in GA who have yet to learn discipline, I cannot even imagine current blokes even writing such crap, let alone identifying themselves.:ugh:

[frigatebird]

tg & tk
that's amazing. don't read the Big Sinny papers - whoever did that to her (as they do here to each other - where the journos trawl for subject matter - deserve the follow up she did on them)

And what a sorry state journalism has descended to as well, that it can't understand an Industry in the present era and write such drivel as 'entertainment' and page filling. (Justifying own employ in a news drought)
THEY deserve to be lampooned in exactly the same way if that is their 'style' - To Take The Mickey.

[j3pipercub]

She's a crack up she is. And she doesn't even really apologise, just makes another pathetic swipe at pilots. The poor fragile thing

j3

[bonvol]

The dopey pilots have shot themselves in the foot here.

Their illiterate responses make it Claire 10, Pilots 0.

Dear oh dear, what would Wayne K say? :)

[Cypher]

If she can't stand the uniform thing, I suggest Claire that you either take the train, or learn to swim when you go away on holidays...

You have a choice love, just don't fly... ever..

:ok:

[airsupport]

In her defence, she does have a point. :ok:

You are talking about Airline Pilots obviously, now I have flown all over the World for some 40 odd years with all sorts of different Crews, sometimes just as a pax and sometimes part of the Crew, NEVER in all that time has there EVER been any doubt in anyone's mind just exactly who was in charge, who was next in line etc etc. :ok:

So although these uniforms are probably a good idea with a Passenger Airline, the epaulettes are NOT needed to show members of the Crew just who is in charge etc, some of the best Pilots I have ever flown with, VERY SENIOR Pilots, often didn't wear them. :ok:

The Pilots that defend them so strongly probably wear them to bed too. ;)

[Mach E Avelli]

I have never met Claire, but she sounds like she would be fun. For once a journo demonstrates an understanding of some branches of the pilot species. Maybe she was targeting YOU based on YOUR past performance (as related to her by her girlfriends of course). Maybe she genuinely does not fancy us. Oh, the rejection.
To those taking offence at her gentle satire - get a grip.

[C441]

I cannot even imagine current blokes even writing such crap, let alone identifying themselves.

Really, Teresa? Don't you read any of the other post on here?:rolleyes:
(However, as you say, their anonymity protects them somewhat here.)

Remember that timely phrase you blokes.
"Never miss a perfect opportunity to say nothing."

[Tibbsy]

I know that context and tone can be hard to detect in writing sometimes, but jeez fellas... stop taking it (the article) and yourselves so seriously. It was light-hearted humour, nothing more sinister than that.

And for the outraged Defenders of The Profession (or was that The Trade :}) who responded to Ms Harvey, whilst below par spelling on Proon might be acceptable, if you're going to take on a journalist it'd probably be worth using your spell-checker before pressing send.

[DutchRoll]

Correct, Tibbsy.

This sort of crap just posts us all in a bad light. All for the sake of a few bloody fragile egos.

It was obvious from the first paragraph that it was tongue-in-cheek. Now I have my very own - professionally educated with a ludicrously long bunch of letters after her name - wife (who for entertainment glances through the posts once in a while) saying we're all a bunch of tossers.

Oh great.

[teresa green]

Airsupport, I never felt dressed without my slides, not because I thought I was anything special, just because they came with the job. (though I gotta tell you the best flying was on the mineral deposits DC3 when we wore stubbies, RM'S and baseball cap, until the TAA boss found out and ordered us back into uniform). So there we were flogging ourselves around the Simpson Desert with a couple of scientists for company (who were clad in shorts and boots) so we simply packed our gear, shed our uniforms, and back into the stubbies until landing. Like a bunch of kangaroos and camels cared what we were wearing. It was as hot as buggery, so there were times we got down to the budgie smugglers and boots, and we used to have a laugh about what ol Capt Frank Ball would say if he could see us now, they sure as hell would never use us in their Up Up and away TAA adds. Best diet I have ever been on that job, lost 10ks from pure heat.:D

[airsupport]

I just thought it was quite funny, what she wrote. :ok:

Really though especially now that the Pilots are locked securely in the cockpit and away from the pax and everyone else, the gold bars are of little importance. ;)

BTW, it is not just Pilots, many years ago (decades ago) while I was working Line Maintenance at an Outport, one of the other Engineers although he wore overalls all day every day AT work, used to travel to work and back home including shopping etc after work in full uniform with epaulettes etc. :rolleyes:

[DutchRoll]

You can take this however you like, but I wrote a very polite email to Claire after the second column saying that I found the original one funny (which I actually did), pleading my case that we're not all complete d**kheads, yet conceding that some of us have proven we are by our reaction.

Here's an edited version of her response with pleasantries & associated bits edited out:

Dear [Dutchy],

......

I’m mates with a few military and ex-military pilots and I’ve massive respect for what you guys do, as well as the commercial pilots … I have enough trouble doing a reverse park in my ancient Honda civic and I can’t imagine how complex and difficult your work really is.

To be honest, I was just trying to have a bit of fun in that original column … oh well, I’m glad you got it, at least!

Thanks again and take care

Claire.

It's getting a bit sad when we can't laugh at ourselves. Even sadder when we decide we need to heap abuse on someone who is. The forwarding email from the news editor hinted to me that not many of the responses were particularly nice or humourous. Very poor show from some of my "colleagues". Arrogant, humourless, obnoxious, and thin-skinned, all rolled into one. The stupid thing is she wouldn't have even written the second one if "we" hadn't been dumb enough to hurl crap at her over the first (and if we could bloody spell). :=

[Captain707]

I have been flying for many years and pride amongst pilots is very low at the moment. The state of uniforms around the terminal look terrible! Polished shoes is a must, starched, ironed and white shirts a must. Clean shaven, unless in "movember", a must. Hats must be clean without looking crushed. The sad thing is, the guys in my age group(40+) seem to be the worst. Hire car divers look better presented!

Good on you guys for at least writing to Claire, even in a humerous way(some made serious points too) and making her apoligise! A lot of people l know took offence to her article and they are not the pompous type, but have a high pride in aviation!

[DDTL]

Dutchy when are you going for coffee with Claire?

[scarediecat]

Thanks to the mod's and other's who have clarified the things that need to be clarified. I really enjoyed the rants but a litle overdure. Maybe you should be a tad more pro-active in keeping things on track. ;)

[DutchRoll]

Don't like coffee. :yuk:

I just felt some weird obligation to go around and help pick up the doggy-doo a few people left behind them while demonstrating their superb intellectual prowess in dealing with the public and media.

This airline/pilot/flying thingy job can be done without becoming a complete w*nker. Well, that's my theory anyway. Some are evidently working on falsifying it. ;)