Aer Lingus to Leave Dublin Forever.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Sooner than I thought, and by different means, but here you are.

From journalist Abi Bray. Emphasis is mine.

Aer Lingus may be on its way out the Republic of Ireland and may base itself out of London or Belfast in a bid to reduce costs and avoid further problems with unions.

According to The Wall Street Journal, the Irish airline has made a formal application to the civil aviation authority in the UK for an operating license.

If granted, this would mean the carrier could legally base its corporate headquarters in either Belfast or London.

The move would permit the struggling airline to start over which would ultimately force their current staff to reapply for their positions under the new Aer Lingus UK brand.

Aer Lingus is going through difficult negotiations with its unions at the moment. The carrier needs to cut 676 jobs which it says would be carried out via voluntary layoffs in order to help save $150 million by the end of 2011 in order to remain active.

Aer Lingus has given an ultimatum of November 30 to the unions to get the labor cuts, after which it would consider a different solution to reduce the size of the airline through route reductions and compulsory layoffs.

On of the biggest problems facing Aer Lingus is the one stemming from its long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well. At Ryanair by comparison, the pilots earn half as much.

Meanwhile, the carrier has admitted that more voluntary redundancies are needed by the carrier.

Some aviation industry experts have claimed that Aer Lingus is searching ways to get rid nearly one fifth of its staff. The carrier said it had a preference for voluntary redundancies, but added that compulsory one has not been ruled out.

Aer Lingus is far from being the only carrier in this tight situation. Other airlines such as British Airways and Japan Airlines are also going through major union disputes.

So, just how viable would a new Aer Lingus (UK) be, operating to the Republic from LGW and LHR, rather than the other way around as is currently the case? Is there a viable future for AERL long haul at all? What about if they rebranded themselves to operate across the pond using their 50 LHR slot pairs? It seems to me a bit of creative management thinking could indeed yet save Aer Lingus from the boneyard of aviation history.

Discuss.

[quazz]

long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well. At Ryanair by comparison, the pilots earn half as much.


Ryanair don't have any long haul pilots so there is no comparison. :hmm:

[Skipness One Echo]

long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well.

Please stop being silly.

[EI-RB]

long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well.

EI Management say there are 60 pilots who cost the airline €20m a year in wages and pensions.

[lomapaseo]

[quote]long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well./QUOTE]

EI Management say there are 60 pilots who cost the airline €20m a year in wages and pensions.

there is a difference between cost and earn in the numbers being bandied about in the many posts above .

The actual cost to the airline includes pension benefits, medical, overhead etc. etc.

The pilots might actually earn a lot less depending on these mangement factors.

However, no doubt that Aer Lingus will be better off if they shed them and hire lower pay pilots eager for the work :}

[Say again s l o w l y]

So that's why they wanted a UK AOC.

I don't know why people are arguing about unions etc. If they are having to do something like this, then it sounds all over, no matter what the management try.

I'm very sorry for any of the staff of EI, but it is a matter of when, not if...

[DrKev]

Source for this wonderful article please? Type "Abi Bray Journalist" into Google and this thread is what comes up. This is after all, still a public forum, and I have rights to read and post, the same as Mr Camel, so I ask him to cough up some more info before taking this seriously, which I probably won't anyway because...

EI Management say there are 60 pilots who cost the airline €20m a year in wages and pensions.

If indeed true, that implies about €330,000 which far below the half-million quoted in our unconfirmed article. It's above the €250,000 figure I hear from Aer Lingus pilots but that's neither here nor there. We are also told in this 'article' that €250,000 is what Ryanair pilots earn. But those Ryanair pilots are all short haul and Aer Lingus short haul pilots certainly don't earn that much, so in fact Ryanair pilots MUST be paid more WAAAYY more compared to Aer Lingus short haul pilots. Now, if Aer Lingus can't survive because of how much the pilots cost (and it is indeed a problem that needs addressing) how can Ryanair survive if their pilots cost so much more?

So it would seem, logically, to me, humble SLF, that Leo Hairy-Camel has just told us that Ryanair is in trouble.

K.

[postman23]

Abi Bray (http://www.self-catering-breaks.com/news/author/abi)
Abi Bray is a young college student who lives in the United States. The major she is studying is English, and so that she could help pay for some of the expenses of schooling, she decided to try writing online. Abi has been writing for self-catering-breaks.com, learning about other places and sharing some of her knowledge with others through her travel writing. She loves writing news for now, but hopes to become a popular novelist after graduating.
Very convincing credentials indeed....

From the same journalists: Ryanair Flight Makes Emergency Landing | Self-Catering-Breaks News (http://www.self-catering-breaks.com/news/26021545.html)

[TURIN]

but hopes to become a popular novelist

Looks like she already has. :suspect:

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Forgive me.

The same story repeated by John Morgan (http://www.fly.co.uk/news/aer-lingus-may-move-base-to-gatwick-or-belfast-1981685.html), Abi Bray (http://www.self-catering-breaks.com/news/49821545.html), Katie Davies (http://www.asap.co.uk/news/aer-lingus-could-move-to-uk-to-fend-off-labour-issues-5634584.html) and Martin Fellowes (http://news.carrentals.co.uk/aer-lingus-looks-to-move-for-the-long-haul-3429791.html). Journalists all. Can't say whether they're all interested in novels, though. You'd need to ask them.

As to the subject at hand?

[postman23]

Almost seems like someone is trying to sell cheap tickets or make me rent a car on your top journalist list.

Abi Bray is a young college student

Just thought I'd enlarge that for ya there. Working on the audio version, gimme another second.

[postman23]

And another one from that respectable news organisation. What was that again? Even bad publicity is good or something? Please allow me to do the favour.

O’Leary suggested that the weaker demand during the coming winter would force a further reduction in prices of up to 20 per cent, which would result in a loss for the next six months.

All joking aside; if an airline is in dire straits, I can support a business decision like the suggested one more than trying to rape its employees and the industry with let's say asking pilots to pay cash for their resume to get processed.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Don't suppose you'd shoot this messenger too (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece), would you? Once again, emphasis is mine...though it were needed!

A group of 66 Aer Lingus pilots are earning almost €20m a year, an average of €300,000 each in salaries and financial perks. They are also entitled to a “gold-plated” pension fund, to which the company is contributing 21% of salary each year.

Last week, Aer Lingus revealed losses of €93m for the first six months of this year and announced its intention to cut salaries. An internal committee of board directors, comprising Colm Barrington, the group’s chairman, businessman Leslie Buckley, and Danuta Gray, the chief executive of O2, have identified long-haul wages, terms and conditions as a key area in which savings can be made.

The high-earning pilots fly on average 600 hours a year. This compares with close to the legal maximum of 900 hours worked by most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year.

The former state airline has achieved savings in pay and conditions for short-haul pilots, but has not tackled long-haul operations, where expensive work practices have become embedded.

These include:

All pilots and cabin crew flying transAtlantic are given a €160 a day cash allowance. No receipts are required;

Pilots and cabin crew staying over in American cities are put in luxury hotels. In Chicago, they stay at The Drake, a top hotel which has hosted Princess Diana and Frank Sinatra. In other cities they stay in four-star hotels, including the Hyatt in San Francisco, the Marriott in New York and the Sheraton in Boston;

Long-haul pilots who work more than 590 hours a year are paid a performance premium on top of their salaries;

A seniority list enforced by trade unions ensures that the company cannot switch younger, less expensive pilots onto long-haul routes. The longest-serving pilots are on the best-paid routes;

Rostering practices on long-haul flights make it almost impossible for the airline to require pilots to work for more than 600 hours.

The Aer Lingus cost-cutting review will seek up to 500 redundancies and double-digit wage cuts across the group. It will particularly try to reduce costs among its 590 long- and short-haul pilots.

The company wants to renegotiate the 21% contribution requirement to the pension fund to which pilots themselves are required to put only 9%. For a pilot on a basic salary of €250,000, the pension contribution amounts to another €52,500 per annum.

The airline is also hoping to cut down on other minor costs including a dry-cleaning allowance for pilots’ uniforms.

The Irish Pilots Association, which represents pilots in Aer Lingus, is expected to fight any attempt to cut pay or terms and conditions for long-haul staff.

Last week, a group of four pilots began a High Court action against the airline for failing to pay an increment due earlier this year.

This is worth an extra “couple of hundred euros a month” to the pilots.

Evan Cullen, a pilot and a trade union representative at the airline, said the court case prevented him from commenting about pilot salaries. Aer Lingus also declined to comment.

The company’s cash reserves decreased by €400m over the past 12 months, reducing them to €439m. A new chief executive, Christoph Mueller, starts on Tuesday. He has been given a mandate to reduce costs and reform working practices.

The pilots believe that they concluded a deal in 2008 which meant that, in return for some reforms, they would not be subjected by the company to any further cost-saving initiatives until 2011.

Aer Lingus pilots are nursing heavy losses from a €20m investment they made in the company’s shares shortly after Ryanair made its first hostile takeover approach for the company in 2006. The pilots purchased stock in the airline at up to €3 per share. These are now trading at €0.53, leaving the 500 pilots who bought shares nursing average losses of €40,000 each.

Aer Lingus, which is losing heavily on some long-haul routes, said last week it might scrap its Shannon-New York service if it cannot make the route profitable.

[postman23]

Eeehhh mate......,
I was kidding about the glasses and all but the article that you now quote (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece) does not reveal any details on Aer Lingus moving out of the country. Maybe a quick pitstop at the local optician's could be of help?

Personally, I don't believe in violence and therefore don't shoot any messengers. Reverse logic would imply me having blown the headmaster of Skank Airways out of the water a long, long time ago :}:}:}, worst news since uniform hats. Again working my funny side here (thought I'd say that up front this time).

[DrKev]

From the original post...

long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well. At Ryanair by comparison, the pilots earn half as much.

Therefore, short-haul pilots at Ryanair earn up to €250,000. Is that correct or not? And how many Ryanair pilots earn that much money?

Leo's backtrack is basically what has already been stated by someone else...

66 Aer Lingus pilots are earning almost €20m a year, an average of €300,000

Was your original 'journalist' now wrong? Has another journalist come to your rescue?


A new chief executive, Christoph Mueller, starts on Tuesday.

So this is an article from September? It's nearly December old bean, do try to keep up. Then again I'm impressed your dentist has material that recent. You must have lovely gums. No evidence of teeth, though, sadly.

Aer Lingus to pull out of Dublin for ever? Ryanair pull out of airports all the time. What's the big deal?

Other than seeking attention, which I'm sorry I gave you and promise not to do again, what exactly are you trying to achieve, Mr Camel? All you've done is come across as smug and clueless in equal measure and seemingly without any point.

Funny old place, the world, eh?

[autobrake3]

Why this Hairey chap has anything to do with aviation given his pathological distaste for pilots, I struggle to understand. Why not get involved in something where you can demonstrate a mutual respect for your fellow employees. The stress and obvious insecurity would no doubt be far more manageable. Airlines come and go, the market will decide on Aer Lingus not someones personal hate campaign.

[Farrell]

"66 Aer Lingus pilots are earning almost €20m a year, an average of €300,000"

€300,000 at today's exchange rate is $450,000

"its long-haul pilots, who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well."

So he's not that far off the mark to be fair. Assuming the above is true, and as an Irish tax-payer, I don't think I would be alone in saying that it's time to get rid of Aer Lingus - it's gone, they've f*cked it, time to start over.

Farrell

[Desert Diner]

They have pretty much put their toe into the "Euro water" already with their mini hub in Gatwick as well as their potential "Spanish Adventure."

There seems to be a bit of MOL in their recent moves.

[hoofie]

Very convincing credentials indeed....

From the same journalists: Ryanair Flight Makes Emergency Landing | Self-Catering-Breaks News

Dear god - in no way, shape or form could you call that article journalism - my 7 year-old has a better grasp of English.

[INNflight]

The high-earning pilots fly on average 600 hours a year. This compares with close to the legal maximum of 900 hours worked by most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year.

So that would be nothing but your own fricking fault then if you work for Cryanair, riiiiight? :E

[crazy idea]

I love the fact that some people in here are saying the story isn't credible as is from a student obviously learning journalism, and questioning the stats when

1) This is a forum called "RUMOUR & News"

2) she actually gave her name to the story and being questioned by people who are posting anonymously


I am not saying I agree with people who post stories that only stir things up - I'm not, have seen too many of them myself and journalists often annoy me anyway

I'm just saying that you have to put it in context of the environment where it's being discussed - in a rumour forum! (and in case anyone says it's also a news forum, that is what the student posted).


On the subject however, I don't believe an airline should move from the country - Aer Lingus is the Irish flag carrier, it should be based in Ireland.

I personally have the same thought about national football managers, that they should only be managed by nationals just like the players! But I digress.

[The SSK]

Why this Hairey chap has anything to do with aviation given his pathological distaste for pilots, I struggle to understand. Why not get involved in something where you can demonstrate a mutual respect for your fellow employees.

Leo Hairy-Camel is a semi-official mouthpiece of Ryanair. There's a clue in the name - it's an anagram - go figure.

[DFC]

As has been widely reported in the press, Aer Lingus is in the process of making an application to the UK CAA for an AOC.

This AOC will enable Aer Lingus to expand it's route network out of the Gatwick and Belfast bases to destinations outside the EU such as Russia and Turkey etc.

Simply put, Aer Lingus has UK bases from which it can't operate on routes it would like to unless it gets a UK AOC.

Never mind the Aer Lingus Ryanair pilot cost comparison, it is reported that the cost of Aerlingus' UK pilot and cabin crew members based at Belfast and Gatwick is 50% of the cost of crews based in Ireland.

Now there is the crux of any cost-benefit analysis.

[EI-RB]

A group of 66 Aer Lingus pilots are earning almost €20m a year, an average of €300,000 each in salaries and financial perks. They are also entitled to a “gold-plated” pension fund, to which the company is contributing 21% of salary each year.

If these figures are true then I think these untouchables should be given a golden hand shake to leave the company asap. These sort of wages and benefits are a joke. No wonder the company is losing hand over fist. WW wanted to shave an additional €100m off costs in 2004. This additional €100m cost cutting plan was never implemented after WW left. Its only now five years later when the company is loosing again that they are taking this action. I hope EI Management are making best use of this crisis.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Jeez Autobrake, did you you get out of bed on the wrong side or did you have a baseball bat - sans lubricant - inserted?

All Leo did was report on a piece of "rumour" and / or "news": what's with jumping down his throat?

And SSK....are you that naive?

[NFF PLS RTFM]

"If you always do what you always did you always get what you always got"

Aer Lingus will not and cannot survive the current climate as it stands. The management must come up with fresh ideas on how to survive. The UK AOC is one option open to them in order to generate revenue. The premise that this means they would pull all operations from Ireland is nonsense.
That they will use this option as a stick in negotiations with unions is not. If they can reduce the cost base by moving more of the operation to the UK they will.

The short haul market (EU) they can currently compete on from the UK but what are they offering that is different to all the others - very little. Therefore to build on pax numbers looking long haul is a viable opportunity from the UK. They have the current infrastructure and experience in this market.

Good luck to them as I support the idea of creating viable employment. Viable employment can only exist within a viable company. If the existing staff need to look at reductions to their current package then so be it. Better to have X - 10% then no job. Unfortunately this is never seen until it is too late.

There are other options open to them and I hope someone is thinking outside the box and not putting all the eggs in this basket.

[bnt]

To my nose, this has a whiff of "bargaining chip" about it - a ploy to get more concessions (tax & more) out of Leinster House. Still, if EI was to leave Dublin, why the UK? I'd think Amsterdam would be a better idea, with its favourable tax regime. Hey, it worked for U2 ... :cool:

[The SSK]

TRSS - no of course I'm not that naive, for God's sake. But it's highly probable that he has official blessing and that his posts are vetted by the corporate media machine.

FR most certainly has a 'communications strategy' and nowadays these include blogs, tweets, bulletin boards and the like.

Hey - I might be doing the same thing.

[Capriati]

bnt: no need for trying to obtain a dutch AOC. All you need is a post address...

Regards
Capriati

[Microburst2002]

Ah, Europe...

How cool being european!
It has to be, because being european hasn't brought us any benefits.

Europe is great, yeah... for the big fishes! now they can squeeze us so easily. Borders were not so bad, after all. Inside them rules had sense and we were protected. Now they are gone, we are in the open.

We (not only the pilots but all the workers in Europe) are like a herd of zebras in a zoo where all the fences had suddenly gone down. To the left, the lions, to the right, the tigers, in front leopards and behind the bears.

But it is cool being european, isn't it?

[EI-RB]

I don't think the EI board would approve of the airlines HQ moving to the UK. By obtaining the UK AOC this will enable EI to serve new markets beyond Europe from the UK. Obviously the Airline will have lower costs in its UK subsidiary. This move could involve a possible long haul JV with another carrier too you never know. EI are possibly looking at developing a 3rd UK base (possibly Man) once they get through the current cost cutting. By obtaining the UK AOC they are reducing their dependence on the Irish market and growing the Airline which is needed for EI to be successful in the long run. Leo is just stirring up his usual stuff.

[Callsign Kilo]

Dublin is the epicentre of EI's problems. Having operated out of the airport for the last year or so, you can get a feel for the extent of their hurt.

For one, passengers numbers have completely bottomed out. Whether it be business, leisure, discretionary travel, tourism; label it as you wish. Its all declined considerably. It has kicked both EI and FR in the goolies. They are both competing for scraps to the point that it seems that each and every minute one is launching some kind of revenue generating sale.

DUB isn't a cheap place to operate from. I don't see the DAA striving to drive down costs for its customers, especially with the vastly overbudgeted hulk of glass and steel that is T2 opening next year. For one they want to see ADP increased due to the nature of their own problems. Each and every operater based at the airport has called for it to be dropped.

As stated, EI's place in the longhaul market has tumbled significantly. It competes with American, US Airways, Continental and Delta on its routes to NYC, Chicago and Boston. Washington has been cut for the winter and I think LAX is gone. Everything out of SNN is understandably under constant review, however its operations from this airport are a constant political hotbed.

Staff costs are high and productivity is crap. In 2008, the average staff cost was 82000e. This related to 2600 passengers handled per staff member. Ryanair showed a 50000e with 9700 passengers handled. I have heard rumours of baggage handing supervisors, largely because of their time in service, on close to 100K a year. EI is well above industry levels of pay for cabin crew, once again due to length of service and final salary pension benefits. I see these guys park up at DUB in their BMW and Mercedes coupes. They totally outpass the 'typical age' that I or any other would consider applicable to cc. Why leave a job like that?

The airline is massively unionised at all levels. Implemeting any chage won't be without it's difficuties. Bringing in the UK AOC will cause a massive rift, regardless of how the management present the reasons for it. Nuff said on that front I think.

Above all I wish the guys at EI well. I have said it before, the airline has an absolutely massive brand appeal. But it has to get its costs under control. I'm positive that people realise that if it doesn't its position at DUB is a dead duck!

[Dodo56]

The Irish unions have a tradition of hanging on to their historic high salaries and perks in the fond belief the government will bail them out forever. No longer the case, as was proved at TEAM Aer Lingus, and will be the case at EIN as it was at SWR and SAB, if they don't wake up and smell the coffee. Unless EIN can get its costs down it will follow them into history and to a large extent that means staff costs, one way or another.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Perhaps a solution would be for FR to takeover EI completely and integrate the short haul operation into the FR model whilst retaining, and expanding the long haul ops, as a discrete premium brand.

[lm07]

can they not just go into administration like GM did and come out with a NewCo and leave the horrible labor set up behind in OldCo

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Not when the Irish Government owns a quarter of the company with an election due by 2012 at the latest, and the Finance Minister has just been voted the worst in €urope. (http://www.irishelection.com/2009/11/brian-lenihan-is-europes-worst-finance-minister/)

Intractable unions believe even their most unreasonable demands will be met by a compliant and passive Taoiseach, as was ever thus. Meanwhile, the new broom seeks order with a Prussian efficiency, gloriously oblivious to the fact that getting Irish Unions to point in the same direction is like trying to herd cats. Scheisse!

Meanwhile, in a fact not lost on many and various as yet unseen hands, Aer Lingus is 4th on the Heathrow totem pole when it comes to slot pairs (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/airline-business/2009/11/for-sale-bargain-heathrow-slot.html) after Golden Balls (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/home/public/en_gb), The Red Lady (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/index.jsp), and the Luftwaffe's new English Patient (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/25/335470/bmi-restructuring-culls-a330s-and-threatens-600-jobs.html). These are worth, depending on time of day and terminal space availability, between one and forty million pounds each. That makes AERL, in slot terms alone, worth somewhere between fifty million and two billion quid. In your individual calculus, do bear in mind that AERL slots are premium time slots, lavishly spread throughout morning and evening peak hours, so one presumes a valuation toward the upper end of that range. Yummy.

Here's a thought Christoph, meine Liebe, rather than bend over and watch IALPA's latest and increasingly bizarre attempt at autoerotic asphyxia (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Recruitment%20Bans/10IND043%20Request%20for%20Mutual%20Assistance%20-%20IALPA%20-%20Ireland.pdf), why not use those lovely 50 slots pairs a bit more creatively? Lovely, green A330's, all big and full out of Heathrow across the pond sounds very nice to me. May as well go down fighting, oder?

[Cymmon]

I would love to work as crew for Ryanair but I can´t afford to pay to work.:{

[jmc-man]

Not a snowballs chance in hell that ANY pilot group would refuse to fly their own aircraft on Aer Lingus flights in this age of survival. To start with, in the UK it would be illegal, leaving BALPA and any of the pilots who refuse the work open to personal litigation ( courtesy of Maggie Thatchers laws introduced during the Miners strike on Secondary Picketing) . Similarly, when the chips are down ( as they re just about everywhere), it's every man for himself.

Sad...but true!

[blackred1443]

I must say i never quite figured out why mol and ruinair wanted to buy AL. Lets face it, the writting has been on the wall for a long time at the green machine. Why bother buying it when chances are its going to do what alot of national carriers seem to do.....go bust.

No one likes to see all these AL crews and staff out of work but its hardly a surprise is it.

Excuse my ignorance but in the event of a RYR takeover what on earth would MOL do with a load of heathrow slots.it hardly fits in with your business model leo camel, now does it.

As for this idea that the Aer lingus brand is valuable, i fail to see how?
Most people associate EI as being a full service carrier outside of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.

PS Congrats on the lisbon treaty vote leo....you must be thrilled:}

[bnt]

As for this idea that the Aer lingus brand is valuabe i fail to seem how?
Most people associate EI as a full service carrier out of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.
From here, it looks like little more than national pride. Is Air France-KLM a Dutch airline or a French one? It's both, of course, for reasons of national pride. You're not a Real Country unless you have an Airline. ;)

As far as I'm concerned, Air Lingus could merge with British Airways at a corporate level, but keep the callsigns and the green paint. However, there would be massive political opposition to that, in a country where anti-Englishness is a semi-official government policy. They'd hand EI over to Ryanair first, just to keep it "Irish". :hmm:

[australiancalou]

Very simple solution to solve this problem.
With such salaries why don't these guys buy the Airline via a LBO.
When on the management dance floor, let them figure about the way to keep their toy flying.....

When your are a simple employee all the personal efforts you will do will be of usefull need for some financials slave traders.

Employees are modern slaves and also customers.
Financials are the slave traders and owners of the food shops;
Let's take powership on our own destiny if courageous enough......:}:}:}

Your dedicated World Nation's President

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

With such salaries why don't these guys buy the Airline via a LBO.
What an excellent question, australiancalou.

In this unhappy case, though, your otherwise faultless logic fails to take into consideration the endlessly amusing antics of IALPA (http://www.lkshields.ie/htmdocs/whats_new/w_new005.htm).

May I draw your attention to Tailwind Nominees (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0710/1224250386211.html). A furious and heroic venture borne in the breast of defiance, only to be dashed on the rocks of the stock market (http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-2834002/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbmRlcGVuZGVudC5pZS9idXNpbmVzcy9pcmlzaC9sZXR0 ZXJzLWNoYXJ0LXRoZS11bnJhdmVsbGluZy1vZi10YWlsd2luZC0xNjg4NDI3 Lmh0bWw/cj1SU1M=). You'll have heard about margin lending, I assume?

Tailwind Nominees (http://www.politics.ie/transport/56232-300-aer-lingus-pilots-lose-up-50k-each-2.html) had heard about it too, but only partly.

The moral of our story, girls and boys? Leveraged negative equity (http://www.allvoices.com/s/event-2834002/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbmRlcGVuZGVudC5pZS9idXNpbmVzcy9pcmlzaC9waWxv dHMtZ3JvdXAtdGhhdC1ib3VnaHQtc2hhcmVzLWluLWFlci1saW5ndXMtY291 bGQtYmUtbGlxdWlkYXRlZC0xNjg4NDI4Lmh0bWw/cj1SU1M=) is a real bitch.

[Pako9]

Oh the fools Leo, thinking you were the devil himself:). You really don't know where to get off do you?.

I hear you're a Celine DION fan, and a former man of the cloth...Not!:ok:

[Love_joy]

Leo,

Hypothetically speaking of course, if AL was your trainset - what would you be doing with it now to get it back in shape?

How do you see this playing out?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Love Joy

Leo would bring me in to slap those union bitches around :D:D

[blackred1443]

no slim not quite......he'd probably charge you another 33k to fly the bus though

[skyloone]

FR gets hold of ALingus. Get the UK AOC.

Short haul reduced
Keep the LHR slots for now. New big deal over at Gatwick perhaps. Maybe even added as an FR base to help 'feed' traffic?
Budget economy seats down the back and Business up front.
Pit Boeing against Airbus for an order of say 50-100 A330's/ 777's
New contracts for all Staff etc..pay your own TR's etc...
All service supply contracts renegotiated
Reduce EIDW long haul until the airport relents on charges there too.
Not so fancy hotels and perks for long haul staff.
Keep the good bits of AL's infrastructure.
For sure... good for some, not so good for others, but at the end of the day, return on wonga is what matters. However much we enjoy flying, planes, whatever, its got earn its keep.

My own view is that the Irish government as the holders of a block of the shares has a duty to the tax payers best interests. Its the tax payer that owns these shares. They should have taken the FR offer and left them with the problem. One way or the other the tax payer is going to end up with not much for its considerable investment. Governments have no business running airlines for the sake of votes or pride.

...ok... I crawl back to my cage.

[The Real Slim Shady]

blackred, nah, Leo wouldn't put me on the bus.......he's not evil you know.:D

Skyloone,

Short haul reduced...........integrated into existing operation. No more main airports etc.
Keep the LHR slots for now..........Sell them. Too expensive to operate to LHR.
New big deal over at Gatwick perhaps. Maybe even added as an FR base to help 'feed' traffic?.......Good plan. Make Easy's eyes water.
Budget economy seats down the back and Business up front. No chance. Only on long haul.
Pit Boeing against Airbus for an order of say 50-100 A330's/ 777's Nope. Show Airbus and Leahy what happens when you dump a whole bunch of their jets on the secondhand market.
New contracts for all Staff etc..pay your own TR's etc... Like bmi?
All service supply contracts renegotiated Use existing FR contracts cancel others.
Reduce EIDW long haul until the airport relents on charges there too. Agreed
Not so fancy hotels and perks for long haul staff. Tents mate.
Keep the good bits of AL's infrastructure. This is the point that I realised you must be on something. ;) What good bits?

[homerj]

No surprise really. The Airline is full of deluded muppets .Like all the public sector workers who went on strike in Ireland yesterday the employees are living on another planet,and its their delusion thats going to bring the airline down.

Most of the pilots in there are there since they were 19 or 20 , the havent a clue what its like in the real world.

There has always been the rot of state run wastefulness in there and even though its privately owned its still there.

Id hate to see it go but its going to happen.

Lads remember , bring your uniform and a few tea bags with you when it goes tits up cause Ryanair charge you for them, dont bother with the peaked cap

[Righteous_Pilot]

Its a lot more complex than national pride and also the Aer Lingus brand would still have a lot of value for the Irish market and possibly further afield.

I also wouldn't agree with the anti-englishness as a semi-government policy and it's only a minority like yourself who would think like that in a corporate context - e.g. Eircom had many foreign owners

[postman23]

Quote:
Very convincing credentials indeed....

From the same journalists: Ryanair Flight Makes Emergency Landing | Self-Catering-Breaks News
Dear god - in no way, shape or form could you call that article journalism - my 7 year-old has a better grasp of English.My point exactly Hoofie.

[JayPee28bpr]

the Aer Lingus brand would still have a lot of value for the Irish market


To put this into contect, the Irish market in population terms is roughly the size of north London. In other words, irrelevant in terms of ensuring critical mass for any airline.

Aer Lingus has a LoCo revenue structure allied to a legacy carrier cost base. It is operating in the worst performing economy in Europe, not expected to return to economic growth until 2011. It has two significant shareholders that no airline that might wish to acquire it would want to see on their own share register, namely the Irish government and Ryanair. Consequently, any acquisition impliclity requires these 55% of shares to be taken out for cash. In the curernt environment, nobody will be interested in doing that.

Aer Lingus has no strategic value to anyone. It ought to be put out of its misery. That would allow others to cherry pick assets, such as: LHR slots; Irish (ie EU) operating entity allowing development of an intra-EU network (possibly attractive to a non-EU domiciled airline). If this happened via an administration, current staff T&Cs could be ripped up and more realistic terms imposed. Much easier than negotiating with the Trogs that are the Irish TUs (think of Alitalia for a comparison).

I disagree with the notion expressed by others that, as usual, the Irish government will somehow bail out Aer Lingus. There really is no money left here. The State's credit rating has been cut twice already this year. There is EU pressure to rein in the deficit. I somehow doubt there will be much voter support for bailing out Aer Lingus at the same time as slashing things like child benefit (being widely trailed as a budget measure here).

[australiancalou]

I had a dream.

Leo

There is a big difference between unionized and unified.

Imagine the very next future.
People realize they have to save our common cheese cake: The Earth.
This generation is thinking ahead and as a sacrificed one is trying to preserve the future of the next to come: their child's one.

Imagine a virtual economic model at the beginning.
Some people from every nations of the World decide to build their own virtual country.
They create their own bank, own shops, buy their Companies and more and more join the system.
In a few years the majority of the Earth citizens join the "World Nation".
The World bank become the only one and garanties all the salaries and pensions as well, as money does not mean anything anymore.

One common goal. Leave a clean place for next generations.
Only one problem, Earth demography has to be controlled.

The actual system is based on growing and is condamned by the simple fact Earth cannot stand more human beings and that's the reason why the entire actual economic system will fail.

Economic rules have been made complicated just because we have different money and because of the competitions between nations.

What Micky's job could be in this future?
Star in a oneman show could be.

If Employees start to buy their own business and unify under a Worldwide organisation completely independant of the Nations then byebye golden parachuts for the actual financials and managers....

Don't treat people as stupid job seekers.
One day the fall will be hard for the ones who don't understand the value of human being against the one of money.
Just because time as come to save our mother Earth for the future of our childs.

Your dedicated World Nation President:}:}:}

[australiancalou]

By the way I didn't forget the H in "time as come...", Micky smoked it yesterday:}:}:}

[AlpineSkier]

@ Righteous Pilot

" The Aer Lingus brand would still have a lot of worth in the Irish market..."

....and how much is that worth a year in profit terms ?

"...and possibly further afield ..."

Possibly, maybe , err, err ????

Another Celtic Tiger that turns out to be a kitten with cat-flu.

[CamelhAir]

who earn up to $500,000 per year and benefit from incredible pension plans as well. At Ryanair by comparison, the pilots earn half as much.

Leo, you've just claimed ryanair pilots earn $250,000.
You also claim:
Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year

But the new DUB captains salary is €49,000. If that's the case, and the average is €150,000, where are all those earning vastly in excess of €150k?
Or perhaps you're compulsively lying? I suppose a ryanair pilot on $250k is a better piece of propaganda that the facts that fr pilots are the worst paid in Europe.

Slim:
Remind me again why you really don't like your colleagues in green.

[ItsAjob]

With the right management Aer Lingus can work.
Its been around for how many years?
Look at its extensive network - Heathrow, New York, Boston, Munich, Paris, Rome etc...
It has solid roots, efficient aircraft,little debt.

All this spin about crazy salaries, they are in line with the likes of Lufty, KLM etc..

If everyone decides to fly into third world airstrips miles from any main city who exactly will serve the quality established routes and airports?

I see the need for Locos but we still need the quality carriers.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

I see the need for Locos but we still need the quality carriers.

I agree with you, Itsajob, but they have to make money these days too, something Aer Lingus in its current form is plainly unable to do. In fact, it's currently burning through €2 million every day. QUite heroic when you learn they've got less than €300 million in the bank. That's five months of lifeblood remaining.

Curiously enough, April next year, five months from now, is when the Court of First Instance (http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2009-03/cp080016en.pdf) is due to make two rulings. Firstly, whether or not AERL may compel its largest shareholder to divest its 30% holding, and second, whether or not its largest shareholder will be permitted to acquire a controlling interest. My prediction? No, and yes. In that order.

[Alexgv1]

If you've seen Dublin Airport recently, you will easily tell who the big player there is. From my memory of going there this Summer, 7/10 aircraft at least were Ryanair on a busy Summer day. I saw some long-haul A330's on the round concourse, but at most 1 or 2/10 aircraft in the airport were Aer Lingus. This is reinforced by the fact that Ryanair has had their own dedicated councourse opened (Pier D if my memory serves me well). Although Aer Lingus is the Irish national airline, and Dublin is the Irish national carrier, there is no need for them to be based there, indeed it looks like they're already on their way out.

I do, however believe that they should be based in Ireland if they are to be a true Irish carrier, or rebrand if they move to the UK. I would argue that they are the last true Irish carrier. Ryanair has become British as much as Irish, and if anything I would now argue they are a European carrier more than anything. CityJet is a subsidiary of Air France, and Aer Aerann is too minor a carrier to fill the gap.

I remember reading an article in Flight International some time around April this year and did a report picking out Aer Lingus specifically for "weathering the storm" in relation to the economic climate. Obviously things have taken a turn for the worst and they will have to drop their luxurious wages. Seeing as they are now trying to compete with the low-cost market, maybe they should start acting more like a low cost airline and at least adjust their salaries and business plan accordingly. This is even if it means dropping the salaries a long haul national carrier pilot would expect - I'm sure there are many more willing and capable of filling the slots.

(1st post so I thought I'd introduce myself - Hi I'm Alex)

[Sir George Cayley]

Good evening Alex,

Oh, the courage of yoof! Your obs on the recent state of play at DUB help paint the picture, but be careful - here be dragons, tigers, cheaters, backstabbers, trolls, but alas for you young man, no Cougars.:uhoh:

We can play rough here, so join in at your peril. BTW have you any ambitions pilot wise?

Sir George Cayley

[liffy2A]

Alex, Planes dont make money sitting round pier A in Dublin, If you think Aerlingus is a small player in Dublin thats because they are in the air trying to make money.

[Alexgv1]

liffy2A:

Fair point, but you would imagine they would represent the overall traffic at the airport. You can hardly say that Ryanair don't utilise their fleet, with a 20-30 minute turnaround and aircraft flying 15+ hours per day, their aircraft dont spend too long on the ground at any airport.

As for my opinion on Aer Lingus, it is different to my observations - I didn't mean any offence to you by my post - and naturally as one of my national carriers I support them wholeheartedly, and was actually going to book a Christmas holiday with them from Gatwick to Knock because they were cheaper than Ryanair in this case.

Sir George Cayley:

I know, was wary about posting because there seems to be a lot of immature b*tching in this forum, so I posted on something I feel strongly about and may have something relevant to contribute.

So far I'm doing a masters in Aeronautics and Astronautics at University of Southampton and would like to become an airline pilot in my 30s after some work in the Police as a PC.

[ItsAjob]

Somebody must know the place where Alex can go and see a lot of parked up Ryanair airplanes!

[waffler]

Can I remind all the spotters, armchair chief executives and Ryanair sh1tstirrers that this website is a professional pilots site and while I dont know nor care who this Leo Camel is, his agenda speaks for itself.I am an Aer Lingus pilot who bought shares to keep Ryanair from buying Aer Lingus and I consider my money well spent as it has succeeded so far.Things are happening which will be revealed shortly to those concerned.
Can the Mods spare us from more uninformed bull and send this thread where it belongs, down the jacks.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Good evening, Waffler. Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us on just how much you spent on your stake in Aer Lingus, and more to the point, how large the personal guarantee you signed since the value of your leveraged investment has declined from your purchase price of nearly €3 to today's closing price of 52 cents?

Moreover, perhaps you'd care to explain why you bothered in the first place since Ryanair's objective is to prevent, and indeed reverse, the decline of Aer Lingus, to invest massively in the company and have it not only survive, but thrive, with employment, profitability (imagine that) and all the other fruit to fall from the tree of success? Why would you object to such a vision of the future?

I would genuinely like to know, and if you are who you say you are you're in an ideal position to comment, why on earth would you and your Aer Lingus colleagues object to Ryanair rescuing Aer Lingus when your airline is in a moribund financial state, moments from total ruin, losing €2 million daily and where by any reasonable measure, Michael O'Leary and Ryanair is about success, growth and a positive future. Why on earth would you elect, by your foolish and failed investment, not to be a part of that?

I put it to you that IALPA and it's incompetent leadership have so poisoned the well of Irish aviation, so befouled the cause of truth, that you have permitted dogma to eclipse reason.

[Desert Diner]

As I recall, the long haul fleet consists of 8 330s and there are about 35 or so 320/321s

[AlpineSkier]

@ waffler

To use the same kind of patronising tone of writing:

Can we remind you that in spite of the name, this is an open forum - there are closed forums on the site as well - so you will just have to put up with your opinions being viewed and - possibly - critiqued by the hoi-polloi ( Oh Mother ! ).

Since you say you are close to the heart of that mighty transport organisation that is Aer Lingus, maybe you have something enlightening to tell us rather than the teasing, troll-like comment " Things are happening which will be revealed shortly to those concerned. "

[TheRedVonBaron]

Invested roughly 50k so far. Over 3 years since mick tried to take us over. I believe dub captains now getting paid 56k basic salary in RYR. So with that in mind, 50k well invested.

How much is Micks 300-400 million he invested worth at 52 cents per share?

[no slot]

Agenda, Agenda, Agenda.......
School yard bullying at its best. Ryanair V Aer Lingus. AL Pilots ( Ialpa ) V MOL.
Very tiring.
Some facts, not agenda driven bullying.

ALT is fat, but it can lose weight ( alot of it ). Watch the media in the next 5 days, some of that weight will be shed.
Ryanair is not fat ( Its loan book is! )

AL is cash positive FACT. Ryanair has net debt FACT.

ALT can improve, Ryanair must expand ( Trees dont grow to the sky, look at the Irish property bubble and all the developers gone bust, look at Lehman Brothers..... etc etc )
Expansion in a contracting market is a risky strategy, especially if you're heavily in debt. If things further decline Ryanair may have to further collateralise whats left of its debtless or low debt assets. The interest rates on the borrowings will increase, thereby reducing the ability of the assets to perform. Fares will have to increase, load factor will decrease..... The perfect storm. Yes there is 2.4ish Billion cash on the balance sheet, but MOL has already ( worryingly ) suggested this be allocated to shareholders as a dividend, Why? He had to in order to quell the exodus of shareholders who now realise expansion is over.

Stelios of Easyjet ( perhaps more agenda here ) has stated in public he feels Ryanair has over extended themselves. Take it or leave, may be agenda.

To defend Ialpa's purchase of shares, they have on numerous occasions stated that the purchase was not to make money but to block a hostile takeover by Ryanair ( which has succeeded twice ). I'd imagine ( if the figures mentioned above are correct ) 2 years ALT salary has more than compensated Ialpa members compared to 2 years of a Ryanair salary. Ironically, Ryanair, I'm told is one of the reasons the Pilots pension fund is in better shape than most other pension funds, when it bought ALT shares around the time of the first takeover bid it was compelled to sell a % of its exposure to the ISEQ, they sold the Irish bank shares before their collapse! Ialpa should have sent MOL a bunch of flowers!

Why does Ryanair want, what they continue to call a basket case zombie Airline? My opinon, because its not a basket case, if it were, Ryanair would have commercially destroyed them. ALT has existed in one of Ryanairs biggest bases now for as long as Ryanair has existed. You dont run laps with an Olympian and not get fit yourself.

Ryanair IS a champion business, FACT. They will survive this downturn. MOL may not, the shareholders are getting uncomfortable. Without continuing expansion you need a product with some sort of quality. MOL is unable to deliver that product the Herb did at Southwest.

Expansion in a contracting market has killed many a business.
When the growth is over, the product must be strong.
Following every boom is a bust.
Economics is simple and obvious, believing it, extremely difficult.
Trees don't grow to the sky.

Rds
no slot

[Sober Lark]

Aer Lingus are trying to operate in a very challenging environment (deeper felt in Ireland) and it hasn't been able to spread risk like others.

Aer Lingus has positive brand recognition so if the opportunities exist elsewhere (and they have key competitive positions in LHR) then it is the shareholders who call the shots. Go for it Aer Lingus! Antitrust concerns will protect you.

What would happen the island of Ireland if there was only one operator. Don't people ask why is Aer Lingus important to Ireland?

[Love_joy]

Leo,

In response to your reply to Waffler, from my point of view its plainly clear why he objects to hostile take over by Ryanair.

I am also a pilot, originally from the Emerald Isle and desperate to return. I spent my childhood gazing at green shiney jets, the sense of pride in the national carrier instilled from birth.

Ryanair delivers a good product to the end user, cheap (if you play by the rules), no frills and punctual. But at what cost?? The crews work tirelessly, but for minimum reward. You tout high salaries, and good working conditions - they might look good on paper but when you become personally responsible for uniform, insurance, pension, car parking, sim checks etc etc.... it doesnt look so good.

Pilots in other carriers may have a similar package, albeit company funded benifits, but the respect element is worth so much more. Knowing that your not simply a 'contractor' working one day to the next. Having a unified voice in order to simplify discussions between management and the crews... You dont have to listen too hard to hear the bitching and moaning from FR crews about how they are treated.

Waffler, and many others have poured blood, sweat and tears into AL to make it the success it has been. They can be proud, and rightly so of what it has been in the past and what it will be again. Just not at any cost

[McBruce]

Once again the camel turns a blind eye to the FR salary questions... :D

[lm07]

"no slot" great post
lovejoy good post
fyi i bought stock in EI last week
thanks for insight

[JayPee28bpr]

On 10 November, Aer Lingus new CEO was quoted as saying that Aer Lingus' chances of survival were only 50-50. A link to one article quoting this is below. I am sure there are others.

Aer Lingus cuts long-haul flights to focus on battle with Ryanair - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6910219.ece)

Aer Lingus has shed some €400 million in cash so far this year. It shows no signs of returning to profitability, with consensus estimates being that the airline will lose over €80m this year, and a further €50m next. Contrast that with Ryanair's position. It is making operating profits, though like the Aer Lingus pilots, has taken a bath on its Aer Lingus shareholding. Ryanair does have potential issues with expansion, but will overcome those simply by cancelling its next 737 orders if necessary. It has nothing like the problems of Aer Lingus. It is more along the lines of "can we continue to expand or have we become an ex-growth company?". Aer Lingus, as the CEO himself admits, may simply not survive.

It is not a robust airline. It never has been. Some of you display a misty-eyed romanticism for this airline that, frankly, astounds me. It is not that long ago that it used to charge people a minimum of £200 to fly bewteen London and Dublin, and that in the days before passenger tax etc. Pre-Ryanair, the average Irish resident's holiday choices were those where charter airlines flew in summer. It was an airline run for the benefit of its workforce and friends in government. Passenger interests were simply ignored.

The idea that Aer Lingus has brand value is simply laughable. Its market share in Ireland plunged as soon as Ryanair started offering cheap fares. It is now easily the #2 airline in Ireland, in a two-airline market! In any case, its home market is roughly the same size as north London but not as rich anymore.

And before you dismiss me as a Ryanair stooge, let me point out I avoid using Ryanair because its charging policies verge on the criminally corrupt. Even where this involves me having to fly to a less convenient airport and hiring a car, I choose Aer Lingus over Ryanair. However, Aer Lingus is a deeply flawed business as a result of weak past management, government interference (eg Bertie sticking one of his mates who lent him money to fund his divorce onto the Board), and the economic condition Ireland is now in. It should be allowed to fail, and stronger airlines (but not Ryanair) allowed to cherry pick the assets they want and impose more realistic working conditions on the still-bloated, still-cossetted workforce. The DAA should be encouraged to give any new entrants or those aggreeing to exand services into Ireland a better deal on fees etc than Ryanair currently has, simply to level the playing field a bit.

[Desert Diner]

What would happen the island of Ireland if there was only one operator. Don't people ask why is Aer Lingus important to Ireland?

Probably nothing.


More people will do TATL via LHR/AMS/FRA
BA will have to start flying to DUB
FR will continue to nickle and dime their passengers while still only "charging" next to nothing on the base ticket fares.

[scandman]

Don't suppose you'd shoot this messenger too, would you?

Ryanair pilots earning on average €150k per year? :confused:

They must have accidentally given me the junior FO contract then? I'd better give them a call right away to clear this up. Cha-ching! :D

[no slot]

JayPee28bpr,
[QUOTE]Aer Lingus has shed some €400 million in cash so far this year/QUOTE]

I'm almost sure we had this conversation in an other forum recently. I will dismiss this sensationalist nonsense that I hear far too often in many lazy media articles about ALT's uncontrollable cash burn.

ALT Cash June 2008 803million euro
ALT Cash June 2009 440million euro = 363million euro burn
However,
2 Aircraft bought for 184million euro CASH ( 75% returned to balance sheet after first half 2009 results announced in a leasing deal ), and
97million euro once off redundancy deal ( resulting in staff cost savings ).

So, 363million euro burn ( minus 184million euro and 97million euro ) = 82million euro ( mostly bad fuel hedging ) which is a more transparent figure when trying to decide if investing in ALT is worthwhile.

82million euro is not 400million euro. It still is a worrying cash burn and needs to be addressed, however, considering the industry is due to lose 11 Billion euro in 2009 ( IATA ) in possibly the worst ever downturn to hit the aviation industry, I believe ALT to be well situated, with a conservative balance sheet, and strong cash reserves. Project Greenfield is about to deliver
another 100million in savings on its cost base.

No wonder MOL and Ryanair want to buy ALT. Would I invest, I already have....

rgds
no slot

[blackred1443]

What 2 aircaft did AL buy for 184 million euro?

Isn't a new 320 about $75m?

A 97m euro redundancy package....how many people?

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

No slot, I enjoyed your post and thank you for it, sincerely. You demonstrate perfectly the central point I'm trying to make. I believe emotion has got in the way of common sense at IALPA, but no matter in which of many ways you try to drown the truth, it keeps bobbing to the surface to spite you. They say nature abhors a vacuum, and I can barely hear you above that dreadful sucking noise emerging from the IALPA of your thinking. First of all, a few factoids to set the record right.
Agenda, Agenda, Agenda.......School yard bullying at its best.
I have no agenda and have never thought of myself as much of a bully. On sober reflection I think my tone quite moderate, unlike yours, but then I'm just a private individual with a vision for Aer Lingus' future. You, on the other hand, seem desperate to preside over its destruction and do so by clinging, like so many demented limpets, to several and various outrageous untruths.
ALT is fat, but it can lose weight ( alot of it ).
All evidence to the contrary, and in any case, not quick enough I fear! Do you really mean to suggest that your bloated A330 drivers, who currently cross the pond with 17 paying customers and 70 staff (I **** you not) on a good day, will forgo their €400,000 salaries for a while? Perhaps they may, and we shall see in Monday’s big announcement.

So much for price, but at what cost? Let me guess. Scope clause to scupper the Astraeus deal and an insistence that any LGW expansion is made with IALPA members on a LIFO basis, thus furthering IALPA's stranglehold around the neck of a crippled and spluttering Aer Lingus? Sound familiar?

Beware the woman in black for she is fat. Beware the airline in green for she is fat with devious, dumb-as-dog**** unions. You'd do well to remember, no slot, that it is in the very nature of certain viruses to destroy it's host. You, or rather, IALPA is the virus. We are the cure.

AL is cash positive FACT. Ryanair has net debt FACT.
On the surface of it, no slot tells the truth. But a picture paints a thousand words. Refer here (http://www.ryanair.com/doc/investor/present/Half_Year_Results_2009.pdf) in general, but pages 7, 8 and 9 in particular.
Before taking a €407 million bath in Aer Lingus scrip and a €346 million share buy-back cost (hardly the act of an airline concerned about its financial future) your debt argument evaporates into the nonsense it is. Describing AERL as cash positive, though, caused me tremendous amusement. Tell me, no slot, did you type that with a straight face? It's a bit like Eric Cartman describing himself as big boned. Comforting self-delusion, but hardly addresses the core nature of the problem.

Aer Lingus is financially screwed, no slot, a fact well known by both of us. Whilst you may be cash positive this week, losing two million €uro a day, or if you prefer, €84,000 every hour, hardly bodes well for a happy tomorrow, now does it?
To defend Ialpa's purchase of shares, they have on numerous occasions stated that the purchase was not to make money
Success beyond your wildest dreams, then! You must be so proud. How big is YOUR personal guarantee, no slot? Waffler's gone quiet.
but to block a hostile takeover by Ryanair ( which has succeeded twice )
Ah, no. Your tiny gathering of underperforming stock is akin to the sound a dwarf makes when farting into a Typhoon. Well intended strenuous effort, funny from a distance, but hardly memorable. It wasn't Tailwind that blocked the acquisition, no slot, it was Steely Neelie Kroes (http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/kroes/index_en.html) who did that. Well, she and Bubbles Ahern, but Bubbles is gone and Neelie ain't so steely any more.

Let's see what the CFI (http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/jcms/Jo1_6308/) has to say on the subject next April. If you're still around then, that is. As an Irish person and regular customer of your delightful airline, I sincerely hope so.

[Tooloose]

You won't find the new competition commissioner any more to your liking, Leo.
The jig is soon to be up!

[akerosid]

The one thing that bothers me right now about EI is that we've had a major focus on cutting costs - and just that. The staff, who have made a lot of sacrifices in recent years, are being asked to make sacrifices, but without the knowledge of any change in the airline's strategy or direction. If I were an EI person, I think I'd be asking "ok, you want us to make sacrifices, but in the absence of ANY evidence of change in strategy or direction, how do I know that the sacrifices I and colleagues make won't be frittered away by poor management decisions, or just inaction?"

People have referred to collapsing pax numbers and yields, yet I've seen no evidence that EI is looking at anything smaller than the A320, a 174 seater. In the current environment, and indeed going forward, shouldn't EI be looking at something around the 100 seat mark (and there are plenty of acft in this class) if it has any hope of staving off FR?

On long haul, not the slightest evidence of change - still, despite the v. poor economy, 24 J class and no sign of any more to replace this with a Premium Economy section or to go down the long haul low cost route, a la Air Asia or Jetstar. Always the follower, never the risk taker ... perhaps that's why EI is where EI is and FR is where FR is?

Why does EI need an acft - the A350-900 - which is even bigger than the 333 and will prevent EI from expanding beyond its current core cities. Surely something around the 250-300 seats would have been a better idea?

Maybe Monday's announcement will give some indication of the airline's planned direction?

[CamelhAir]

Leo, you must have learnt by now that arguments carry more credibility when you answer directly those questions posed to you. Otherwise you run the risk of being dismissed as a mere propagandist. Now I know you'd hate to be thought of as that, so let's try a little discussion about a central point you made at the outset of this thread.
Let me remind you, you asserted that FR pilots earn either a) $250,000 or b) an average of €150,000. So, can you confirm that this is an actual factual situation or if not, why not tell us what the real average FR pilots earnings are?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel, what a pilot with FR makes, Leo or otherwise, doesn't make have the square root of sweet FA to do wth EI survival.

Get a life.

[no slot]

I posted today approx 5pm or a little after, its no longer live. Why is that? Is it censorship? If so i'm disgusted. I'm very much a moderate. My posts are always polite and measured. Would a moderator please have the courtesy to explain why my post is no longer live?
rgds
no slot

[Bearcat]

I note some contibutors can call others, names like pigmy etc, put vile u tube links of animals etc but when the finger is pointed elsewhere mr slot, selective censorship prevails.

[Wacked]

Your tiny gathering of underperforming stock is akin to the sound a dwarf makes when farting into a Typhoon. Well intended strenuous effort, funny from a distance, but hardly memorable.

Leo, you made my morning. I have tears from laughing. You are incredibly elequent and right in so many ways. But isin't that the trait of the great liar, to be able to tell you a lie with just the right amount of truth that you believe. O'Leary has been doing it for years with the skill that has me convinced he must be the Devil himself. Who can forget the "Pilots only work 18 hours a week" comment.

So if Olearys the Devil, I guess that makes you a sort of Beelzebub, or lesser Devil. Whispering convincingly in the ears of the greedy and weak.

But you are right about Ialpa, they are misguided and ineffectual. The pilots of Aer Lingus need to wake up and smell the stale coffee served in the dole office.

The problem is that the top 10% of Aer Lingus pilots and cabin crew don't give a **** if they lose thier jobs and they don't give a **** about the co-pilots at the beginning of thier career. As long as they get their cushy pension. They are the ones with the most to lose from a paycut and the least to lose from the Company going under, as long as the pension fund is ok. And they pull the strings in IALPA.

What Aer Lingus really needs to do is try something different and stop copying Ryans every move. DO SOMETHING ORIGIONAL!!!!!!.

One last rant...Leo, you are an endless source of entertainment and have nearly had me convinced on occasions. Then I Blink and shake my head when I realise that while you are stroking my ego and greed, you are sliding a blade in my back. **** off back to hell and take your cloven hoved father Oleary with you. Life is about people, not JUST profit.

[CamelhAir]

Camel, what a pilot with FR makes, Leo or otherwise, doesn't make have the square root of sweet FA to do wth EI survival.


Au contraire my dear Slim, it means everything. It's called the "market rate." If EI pilots are getting the market rate, then any fault attached to the problems of EI is not attached to the pilots pay rates, i.e. they are not overpaid in comparison to the opposition.
What I am trying to establish is if EI pilots really are paid better than FR. Leo claims that the average FR pay is €150,000. By verifying the accuracy of that statement, we can then deduce if the supposedly high pay of EI pilots is out of line with the principal opposition. The logical corrollory to that conclusion is if the avereage EI pay is less than €150,000 (which I believe it is), then it is in fact lower than at FR so in that case, the pilots pay is nothing to do with the problem.
So Slim and Leo, why not end the argument by verifying the actual average FR pay so we can then deduce how much fault to attach to ialpa?

[merlinxx]

Wouldn't that be serving the largest Irish population outside of the USA :confused:? At last count I was told by an Irish Lady, there are more Paddies in the UK than in the Republic, and god bless em:ok:

Come hither Shamrock, you've opened up at LGW, come on over for more:E

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel

Regrettably in a formidably unionised envrionment like EI, "market rate" goes right out of the DV window! That is why you have posters claimimg that the baggage handlers can earn €100K plus.

If you want "market rates" check with your chums at IALPA or BALPA: they have the numbers. Market rate for an FR Captain is in the region of € 145K gross, LTCs etc about 15% - 25% more.

[DrKev]

for an FR Captain is in the region of € 145K gross

and from post #13 by Leo...

most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year

We can expect FR captians to earn more than the average pilot. Clearly Leo's post here suggests that FR captains make a lot more than €150,000.
Who is correct?


If you guys want to make comparisons between FR and EI (with a view to thrashing EI and it's pilots) get YOUR numbers straight. The onus is clearly on YOU. The credibility of YOUR arguments hangs on it.

Once and for all, lets see just how highly paid EI pilots may or may not be, just how badly paid FR pilots really may or may not be and how how far outside the industry norms they all may or may not be. I don't have these numbers. And I'd like to know.

EI long-haul senior captains make a lot of money and it's a problem. We all pretty much agree on that and I know many EI pilots will agree too. FR don't fly long-haul so that's out of the comparison. Compare like with like.

1) How much do FR and EI captains on similar routes REALLY make?
2) What is the average wage across all pilots at FR and again at EI?
3) What are the European market rates for similar pilots?

Answer those questions, honestly and correctly, preferably with quotes from a good industry source and then we can have a reasonable discussion.

A bunch here are blabbing like they know everything and everyone else are bunch of pathetic fools but there is precious little agreement between even themselves. Let them put the money where their mouths are. Tell us what you REALLY know. If not, please STFU.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Err, just so we're all singing from the same songsheet, I'd like to address the following snippet lifted from the quoted material made in my post number 13, as requested by DrKev and queried by others.
The high-earning pilots fly on average 600 hours a year. This compares with close to the legal maximum of 900 hours worked by most Ryanair pilots, who earn an average of €150,000 a year.
I never made such a statement. The reason it appears in a big blue block and separated from my text is that it is a quotation from another source. In this particular case, Times journalist Tom Lyons. Let's do try and focus, folks.

This isn't about what Ryanair gets paid. It is about the imminent destruction of once proud Aer Lingus by a coterie of self-interested, bloody-minded unions who fail to grasp still, the fact that what was once state indulgence is now thrown to the commercial wolves. It is unfortunate that they're compelled to compete will the world's best run and commercially successful airline in their domestic €uropean operations, but trying to do so on price when their cost base wildly exceeds that of their principal competitor is just foolishness. Worse, it's emblematic of the sort of short-term thinking that has defined Aer Lingus since privatisation.

Why is this so? I'm the first to admit Aer Lingus is a lovely airline to fly with, and I do so regularly in my travels around €urope, but why is it that their long term goals have never matched their short term potential?

Recent Vice President Gore of the United States may have an anthropological explanation. This from a recent essay...
Behavioural economists believe they have the answer: our brains are hard-wired to think short-term because evolution has rewarded serial short-term successes such as avoiding predators and other dangers that faced our ancestors. Their survival ensured our existence – but predisposed us to the same kind of short-term thinking. As a result, even though our world is very different from theirs, long-term decision-making remains the exception, not the rule.
That's as may be, but in the meantime, we still have a famous airline to save. According to the surprisingly timid 'no slot' and even more timid 'waffler', Operation Greenfield, shortly to be announced, will be the maiden's last chance in terms of saving Shamrock from itself. I rather think a better title might well be Operation Scorched Earth, but as 'no slot' remarked before erasing his post, only time will tell.

May I leave the final word to Albert Einstein.
We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
A lot of good people are facing terribly uncertain futures here, ladies and gentlemen. Lets, all of us, try to keep our eye on the ball, shall we?

[ItsAjob]

So it seems the whole of Aer Lingus has lost so much money due to a few long haul pilots wages.
Quite amazing!

[DrKev]

The eye on the ball, and how people will judge your arguments, is the accuracy of the sources that you chose to quote in support of your argument. Are you now saying that what you chose to support your argument is not worth the virtual paper it's printed on?

"It wasn't me, gov, it was that other bloke in the newspaper".

You brought up the comparison between EI and FR pilots the moment your quoted those sources. It appears that you won't stand over those figures any more. So give us some numbers that you will stand over, for both EI and FR and the rest of their competition and then lets see what conclusion we can draw. The strength of your argument depends on it.

[CamelhAir]

Leo, the good doctor is indeed correct. It is incumbent upon you to inform us which pieces of the evidence, which you chose to introduce, are truthful, accurate and can be relied upon. If the veracity of some portion of the report is in doubt, so is the rest until you can prove otherwise.

[Sober Lark]

Mr. Leo Hairy Camel, why hard wire your brains so much to invest in Aer Lingus then state you wouldn't make a third bid?

[irishpilot1990]

Hello,

To sober lark.... why would they make a 3rd offer? I wouldn’t. I would sit it out....:}
Wait for government etc to phone him and BEG Ryanair to take their share before its not worth a penny!!! Also Aer Lingus I believe is a super brand name, perfect for Ryan long haul fleet don’t you think? The new AOC helps that idea. But MOL is delaying that idea for at least 4 years, so another reason to wait.
He can leave Aer Lingus cull its staff, struggle along then come in and be a saviour not an enemy! So wait, get a bargain, instant long haul ops and at the time he decides to move A.L will be a much smaller hole in his wallet then it is now!!!

drkev...why are you moaning over figures between Ryanair and Aer Lingus? What has ryr got to do with it??? Irrelevant to the future of Aer Lingus...it doesn’t matter if the Ryanair pilot is on 10euro a year or 10 million euro…Aer Lingus must reduce pay by whatever amount necessary to make profit.
The only figure that matters is the 100million loss the company is making:eek: and the fact the pilots and everyone else in the airline is paid more then other airlines, and hence cant compete.
And why is everyone blaming the long haul pilots…hmm I doubt they are the sole or even majority reason for that 100million figure, I stand to be corrected!

[airmail]

Slightly off topic (for which I apologise) but a quick questions about RYR's aircraft.

We all know the interior layout in terms of where the safety card is and the lack of trays etc etc. Whilst they got a good deal with Boeing on this basis (and the number of aircraft ordered), how does this layout have an impact on any resale value? The aircraft will only be kept for a certain period of time and then sold on elsewhere but surely the layout will increase the amount of work (and therefore cost) that would need to be done as they are the only carrier (to my knowledge) that kits their aircraft out like this.

Of course they could be bought by another LoCo but they would have to change everything internally anyway as I'm sure that RYR wouldn't want their colour schemes on another airline.

No axe to grind, just curious.

airmail

[bia botal]

'Flipping' used aircraft was a major source of revenue for Ryanair until recently but they haven't sold one for quite some time now and unless the price reflects the the work required to bring them up to spec thats not going to change anytime soon. Worrying times for Leo and the boys

And yet the company managed to make 380 million over the summer, with predicted annual profits of 220 million.

With some major surgery Aer Lingus could be saved

For Aer Lingus to be saved it will take more dirty tricks and back handers than even MOL could come up with, more than likely only resulting in a short-term delay, for as always the unions will bore in, demanding that the cuts need not be so severe, the the lay-offs are to many and the pay cuts are to big, the management will waiver as always, and Christoph Mueller just like Dermot Mannion and Willy Walsh before him will rolls his eyes to the ceiling, thinking this sounds familiar and wonder where his next job is at.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000c75f10dr.jpg
No agreement at Aer Lingus talks

Tuesday, 1 December 2009 10:50

Talks between unions and management at Aer Lingus on a cost-cutting plan to secure the future of the airline have adjourned at the Labour Relations Commission without agreement.

The decision to adjourn was taken following more than 16 hours of talks, which began yesterday afternoon.

It is understood that the airline has tabled its final set of proposals to the five groups of workers involved, and other counter proposals have been tabled by the unions.

The company is to consider the submissions and progress at a board meeting later this afternoon, while union leaders are to consult with their members. There are no plans to reconvene the talks, but sources suggested this might happen after the company's board has met.

Sources close to the talks are optimistic that a deal with head office workers, ground handlers and craft workers is close. But it is understood that there remains substantial unresolved issues between the company and pilots and cabin crew.

Among the proposals currently being considered are ten days unpaid leave for most employees, changes in work practices, a 10% pay cut for the higher paid and a large number of voluntary redundancies.

The redundancy offer would be statutory redundancy plus four weeks per year of service, with a ceiling of two years - far less than the deal given to workers during its last round of restructuring.

Pilots are said to be unhappy with the proposals, which would see them deliver savings of €30m, because they feel they would not be getting sufficient return recognition, given their equity stake in the company, and the role they played in fending off a takeover by Ryanair.

[JayPee28bpr]

Pilots are said to be unhappy with the proposals because they feel they would not be getting sufficient return recognition, given their equity stake in the company


Surely the solution is for the pilots to show even more faith, and buy even more shares? I'm sure somebody will lend them the money if they need it, in return for a seat on the Board perhaps (one Mr B Ahern can advise on how to structure such a transaction). Then, having bought enough shares, the pilots can sack the Board and appoint themselves as Directors. Problem solved. I don't think peripheral matters such as excess costs and inadequate revenues should be allowed to obscure what needs doing here.

[ItsAjob]

I have the solution!
I have had a message from the gods.

Increase the ticket prices to make a profit.

It seems to work in every other industry.

Just drove past my local petrol station, guess what, fuel price has gone up.

[Love_joy]

Increase the ticket prices to make a profit.

Don't worry - they are on to it. Just had £20 added to a return trip just for honour of paying!

[Skipness One Echo]

ncrease the ticket prices to make a profit.
Have you perhaps ever heard of "Ryanair" and why prices were driven down across the board? You should write to the CEO at Aer Lingus and share that thought....

[EI-RB]

RTÉ Business: Aer Lingus chief warns of more lay-offs (http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1201/aerlingus.html)

Aer Lingus warns of 'immediate' lay-offs

Aer Lingus chief executive Christoph Mueller has said the airline will go ahead with cost-cutting measures, after failing to reach agreement on a restructuring plan with all of its unions.

The statement came after a board meeting this evening to consider progress made in overnight talks with unions at the Labour Relations Commission on the restructuring plan.

Mr Mueller said Aer Lingus management would now reduce capacity and eliminate loss-making routes. He said this would result in fewer aircraft, which in turn would lead to additional redundancies beyond those included in its restructuring plan. 'It is very likely that these redundancies will commence immediately and will be compulsory,' he warned.


Mr Mueller said the airline had narrowed the gap with most unions, and was close to signing a deal with them, but he said the 'exception to this promising outcome' was the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) and to a lesser extent, cabin crew.

IMPACT, which represents cabin crew at Aer Lingus, tonight said it did not wish to contemplate what would happen if the board of the company went ahead with unilateral plans to cut costs.

Earlier, sources close to the talks had said they were optimistic that a deal with head office workers, ground handlers and craft workers was close. But it was understood that there were still substantial unresolved issues between the company and pilots and cabin crew.

[Love_joy]

And this one; Aerlingus to implement cost savings (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1201/aerlingus.html)

The Aer Lingus board has decided to proceed unilaterally with its plans to cut €97m worth of costs from the airline.

The move follows the failure of management and unions to reach agreement on alternative plans during seven weeks of negotiations, most recently at the Labour Relations Commission.

The decision was announced by Aer Lingus Chief Executive Christoph Mueller at Dublin Airport this evening.

Mr Mueller said the decision would most likely lead to further redundancies, possibly compulsory, above the 676 voluntary redundancies being sought under the draft plan.

'The board and management will now move to reduce capacity, further eliminating routes which are loss making as a result of our high cost base,' he said.

'This will result in the operation of fewer aircraft, which in turn will lead to additional redundancies beyond those included in the Transformation Plan. It is very likely that these redundancies will commence immediately and will be compulsory.'

Mr Mueller added that they had come close to agreement with the unions on a number of matters and praised the efforts of employees during the negotiations.

However, he said the exception were pilots and cabin crew, with whom agreement was not as close.

He said: 'The exception to this promising outcome is the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA) and to a lesser extent, cabin crew.

'Instead of sustainable savings of a structural nature, only temporary savings over a short few years were offered by IALPA.'

Mr Mueller did not rule out further talks however, saying what had been achieved could be used as a basis in the future.

But he said equal treatment of all employees means that all employees, including flying staff, must agree.

IMPACT's Christina Carney reiterated that the union believed it had developed proposals that will go a very long way towards meeting the company's savings targets from cabin crew.

IALPA President Evan Cullen had no comment to make in relation to tonight's announcement.

[eu01]

No agreement at Aer Lingus talksWhat about an Irish equivalent of Berlusconi? Well, I do not necessary mean O'Leary...

[wxjedi]

Sad news for all the Pilots and Cabin Staff that will be let go.
Best of luck to you all.

Tom

[JayPee28bpr]

It was sarcasm, aimed at various posts above stating what great shape Aer Lingus is in. Tonight's announcement shows, I'm afraid, just how wrong that they were.

Incidentally, without the announced cuts, Aer Lingus has about 6 months' cash left. The fact that redundancies will be compulsory (with much poorer severance terms than previously) and immediate, shows just how desperate Aer Lingus' position is. I still think the Irish aviation market would be best served by Aer Lingus going into administration, allowing stronger airlines to cherry pick what they want to the exclusion of Ryanair. That way, all contracts can just be ripped up, and anyone taken on by an alternative employer would either be on that airline's terms (whether on an Irish contract or otherwise), or new contracts could be put in place with more realistic terms and conditions. Anyone with any sense would structure things so that all five of the Unions involved lose any recognition rights.

The above would leave Irish passengers with some level of provider choice, though we have to accept that Ryanair is going to be dominant. The alternative to the above will be a steady erosion of choice but with no incentive either for new entrants to the market, or any realistic takeover of Aer Lingus as a going concern, given that 55% of shares are held by the government and Ryanair. No acquirer would want either on their own share register.

[68+iou1]

I’ve seen something similar in Aus in ’89. Senior pilots control the union and could not give a dam about anyone below them on the seniority list!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The Dwarf strikes again.
Operation Greenfield lads? Really?

The Irish Times - Wednesday, December 2, 2009 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1202/1224259892134.html)

Aer Lingus warns 1,000 jobs may go after talks fail

CIARÁN HANCOCK Business Affairs Correspondent

Aer Lingus warned yesterday that more than 1,000 workers could be made redundant over the coming months after the airline failed to reach agreement with unions on a plan to cut €97 million from costs by 2011.

Chief executive Christoph Mueller said failure to agree a deal meant the airline would ground aircraft in the new year and close loss-making routes. This strategy was decided by the board of Aer Lingus at a 90-minute “extraordinary” meeting at its headquarters yesterday evening.

The board will meet again on Friday to decide the scale of the cuts, Mr Mueller said. Aer Lingus’s hardline approach has raised the prospect of industrial action, possibly before Christmas.

Aer Lingus had originally sought 676 job cuts but Mr Mueller said this would now be “north of 1,000”.

Talks with unions broke down at about 8am yesterday morning following seven weeks of negotiations. Mr Mueller said the two sides were “so close to an agreement this morning [Monday] that it was almost ready for a signature”.

“The board has decided today to move,” he said. “It is regrettable.”

It is understood that agreement was close to being reached with craft workers, ground operations, and head office and support staff. But there was still some distance to be bridged in talks with pilots and cabin crew.

“We haven’t reached an agreement with the pilot association and to a lesser extent with the cabin [crew],” Mr Mueller said.

He said proposals from the pilots, which included an extra 4 per cent stake in the airline, were “not sustainable” and the price was “too high”. It is understood that the pilots offered cost savings of €30 million a year. This included pay cuts of 10 per cent, extra productivity and other concessions.

The pilots are also thought to have proposed that the company establish a tax-efficient share-saving scheme that would have given them access to an extra 4 per cent stake in the airline. These shares are currently worth about €12 million. The pilots already own about 4.5 per cent of Aer Lingus.

No comment was available from the pilots’ representative body Ialpa last night. Impact, which represents cabin crew, said it was disappointed with Aer Lingus’s decision. The union said it had submitted cost-saving proposals that have been “checked and verified” by accountants Grant Thornton.

“The union remains available to discuss alternatives with the company,” a spokesman said.

It remains to be seen if the National Implementation Body, the State’s main troubleshooting mechanism under social partnership, will once again seek to get involved in the dispute.

Siptu divisional organiser Gerry McCormack said the union “would welcome an intervention to get this resolved”.

[GobonaStick]

Industrial action threats at a loss-making, relatively small national carrier, heading for financial schtuk. Mueller must be having an epic deja vu.

[corsair]

Aer Lingus and the unions always indulge in brinkmanship when it comes to negotiations. I used to work for a subsidiary, it was a tiresome and worrying ritual every couple of years.

The problem with brinkmanship is the potential that both parties to fall over the edge. There won't be a parachute from the government this time. Dangerous days ahead for the airline.

[EI-RB]

Mueller's statement has been carefully written designed to show the pilots are not willing to accept changes compared to other staff. Nobody will have sympathy for the pilots if they go out on strike not even the other EI staff.

[Bearcat]

ditto Corsair. As for the original poster, his wet dream.....the chap is living on his pc these days.

[Sober Lark]

All statements are a form of manipulation. Leo must quake when he sees the result unions got for the public sector over here today.

[the grim repa]

what a sad few days just gone where we have once again been subject to the insane rantings of loopy leo and slime shoddy (the self appointed lo-co experts)e.t.c..how sad can your life be that all you can do is bait other professional pilots and wish ill upon them,in what i believe is a sick attempt to drag everyone down to the ryanair level.being at the base level,both leo and slime,i am sure you both would be happy to see all of aviation dragged down to your level,so you could once again try to justify your suppossed position as the best paid scumbags in europe.shame on you!!!

[Romeo India Xray]

So, they (the unions) are happy with 10% pay cut for management types?

NICE!!!

As a heads up for these guys, 2 years ago I took a 50% pay cut (redefinition of contract), a year ago I lost a further 25% when all tasks additional to my role (for which I was remunerated) became obligatory and non-remunerated, and then I lost a further 20% of that this year. In total, that is just 38% of what I was paid 2 years ago.

I am now paid less on an hourly basis than my friend pays some of the waitresses who work in his cafe!

AND, I am entrusted with upholding flight safety at NAA level.

If the guys at EI can bite the bullet and take cuts like that, then there may be a chance for many of them. I somehow suspect that pilots with 20 years experience will not be willing to do as I did and would prefer the dole queue. Me, I'm simply too proud for that.

RIX

[yoland]

Sad day for the National carrier.I wish all involved the very best.:ok:

[Dodo56]

Love it. Costs are too high, and it's the fault of management for failing to manage. Management try to cut costs and immediately they're the villains!

I wish Mr Muller the best of luck in trying to bring a national airline with a proud tradition back from the brink of self-inflicted extinction. It will not be an easy task and he will get scant few thanks.

Those crew who think they are being so hard done by should remember they do have a choice and there is another local airline who would doubtless employ them if the terms offered by EIN are so bad.

[milehighdriver]

For all those arm-chair critics: The Facts!

Aer Lingus Staff Information Notice from IALPA

Aer Lingus reject IALPA’s offer of €35m in annual savings

Dear Colleague,

You will already have seen the Staff (Mis) Information Notice in which Aer Lingus tries to blame IALPA for the lack of final agreement at the LRC negotiations. While negotiations are still ongoing, it is important that you and the rest of our colleagues should know the real truth and IALPA is therefore issuing this bulletin in order to correct the misleading information given by management.

In its Staff Information Notice, Aer Lingus alleges that:

• IALPA has not offered “sustainable savings of a structural nature”
• IALPA has offered “only temporary savings over a short few years”
• IALPA has looked for “very high compensation in return”

Unfortunately, each of these statements is incorrect. Our CEO, Christoph Mueller, said on 7th October 2009: “What is most important to us is that we reach the savings amount as a total, but there might be different ways to get there…maybe there are other ways to get the same amount of money.”

IALPA has offered real, significant and verifiable savings worth in excess of €35 million per year to Aer Lingus for the life of the plan. This includes, but is not limited to:

• Pilots have offered to take a 10% pay cut on the basis that the debt of the Tailwind Trust is made good. Aer Lingus recognised the real and tangible contribution made by the Tailwind Trust to the airline throughout the LRC negotiations. This is worth €8.1m per year.

• Voluntary redundancy, valued at €15.2 million per year, according to Aer Lingus’ own figures.

• Increase in long haul productivity. We say this is worth €9 million per year; even Aer Lingus accepted it was worth at least €5 million per year.

• Increase in retirement age by 5 years and an increase in pension contribution by pilots of 4% of salary. We say this is worth €5.85 million per year; Aer Lingus say it is worth ZERO, despite their constructive obligation to the deficit in the pension schemes – which has yet to be properly accounted for by the company.

In relation to the proposed pay cut of 10%, it is exactly the same percentage pay cut as our CEO and his senior management team are prepared to take. Our proposal is very simple. When the pay for senior management is restored, we want our pay restored too. We think this is fair. Aer Lingus management don’t. Management were asked repeatedly in the LRC to agree to Pay Restoration for all staff on the same basis and at the same time as Pay Restoration for Aer Lingus senior executives (including those who had negotiated ‘golden parachutes’ for themselves in the event of a takeover). They dismissed this proposal out of hand. They want permanent pay cuts for us and temporary pay cuts for themselves.

But they want to blame us when we don’t agree. You may know that IALPA’s pilots have already spent €30 million of our own money buying Aer Lingus shares to defend the company from hostile takeover attempts. As well as the €35 million plus per year offered to the company in cost savings, pilots also offered an extra reduction in variable pay of several million per year. In return we asked for additional equity in the company to assist in the defence of the company in the event of another hostile takeover attempt. We think this is reasonable and in the best interests of all Aer Lingus staff.

We believe that all Aer Lingus staff should be given a similar opportunity to acquire shares.

There is one aspect of the current negotiations that management have not made you aware of – they have proposed that the pilots alone ‘shall shoulder the entire (pilots’ pension) scheme deficit’. At the last actuarial valuation (March 2009), this was estimated to be in the region of €147 million.

While IALPA approached the negotiations in good faith and reached a tacit agreement on over €35m in annual savings, management continued to pursue a tactic of outsourcing both here and the UK.

IALPA is very disappointed by Aer Lingus’ attempt to wage a propaganda war against its pilots. We think it’s important you should know the truth. We will arrange a meeting in ALSAA to which all Aer Lingus employees (including members of management) are invited.

We will give you the full background to the current situation and answer all your questions. We are committed to this airline and we have put our own money on the line to defend its independence. We want to join with the management and all employees of Aer Lingus in making this a great airline once again. We want management to stop fighting us and to start fighting the competition. We believe the current management team has demonstrated that they have the ability to do so. We hope they have the will to do so.

In the meantime, IALPA is as committed as ever to reaching a fair and equitable agreement to secure the airline’s future. In this context, we remain available to engage in negotiations with management.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

The Truth Will Set You Free.

The post above from milehighdriver is most illuminating. Naturally, it first needs to be de-dwarfed in order to determine the reality of what it tells us. Permit me to take this thankless task upon myself.
• Pilots have offered to take a 10% pay cut on the basis that the debt of the Tailwind Trust is made good.
The pilots have spent €30 million of their own money, an average of €56,604 for each of their 530 strong number, in purchasing a 4.5% holding of the 534.04 million shares on the register. That's 24,031,800 shares by my calculation. What they don't tell you is that the shares were leveraged, or to put it plainly, the Dwarf used this thirty million as a deposit to borrow more money to buy even more shares, thinking their futile and reckless effort would halt the attempted take over by Ryanair. It didn’t, of course. They were left short, in more ways than one.

Ryanair wants, or rather, wanted to make a massive investment in Aer Lingus to have it thrive, with employment and futures for all. For reasons best known to itself, this is what IALPA is twisting itself inside out to avoid, ladies and gentlemen, even if they have to destroy Aer Lingus to do it. On present trends, they will achieve precisely that.

Their shares were purchased at an average of €2.80, and with shares last trading at 55 cent, they’re looking at losses of over 81% of their initial capital, plus ALL of the leveraged funds. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and others, are holding de facto mortgages, secured by personal guarantee, over all contributory Aer Lingus pilots, and as an industrial bargaining chip, they now demand of the airline whose future they have sabotaged, to be saved from their own voluntary, hubristic stupidity and the consequences of a failed investment! Surely one for the history books, but wait! There's more. The Dwarf continues.....
But they want to blame us when we don’t agree. You may know that IALPA’s pilots have already spent €30 million of our own money buying Aer Lingus shares to defend the company from hostile takeover attempts. As well as the €35 million plus per year offered to the company in cost savings, pilots also offered an extra reduction in variable pay of several million per year. In return we asked for additional equity in the company to assist in the defence of the company in the event of another hostile takeover attempt.

Basic maths time. Government shareholding 25%, employees trust (ESOT) 18.5%, devotees of the Dwarf (DD) 4.5%. Grand total? Forty Eight Percent, which casts their curious and outrageous demand for an additional 4% into an entirely new light.
We think this is reasonable and in the best interests of all Aer Lingus staff.
I think the exact opposite. I think the Dwarf thinks this is the best way to maintain his hose in the trough for the longest possible time before the inevitable happens. But wait.....
There is one aspect of the current negotiations that management have not made you aware of – they have proposed that the pilots alone ‘shall shoulder the entire (pilots’ pension) scheme deficit’. At the last actuarial valuation (March 2009), this was estimated to be in the region of €147 million.
There's no better way to get the hair up among a group of legacy pilots than by fiddling with their pension fund. What a shame they hadn't taken responsibility for themselves like the rest of us do.

So much for the lies of IALPA and the no-neck polyester dwarf who runs it. Lets hear now from a transcript of conversations heard in Dáil Éireann (the Irish Parliament) in very recent days.

This from Enda Corneille, Aer Lingus' Director of Corporate Affairs.
That is the key issue. Our costs are too high. We have a duty to the plc to address all of these challenges to shareholders, employees and customers. The future is in all of our hands and we must embrace a new strategy. If we do not, we face a bleak future.
He goes on.....
The new strategy is in two parts: the first is to do with reducing cost and the second with generating revenue. I will not dwell on the headlines; it has been pretty well reported that the industry is in turmoil. It is also a fact that airline demand correlates with GDP, and it is no surprise that given the turmoil in the consumer markets, aviation is not unaffected. IATA, which is the global body representing aviation, usually makes one forecast of outturn per year for all its members. For this year it made its first forecast in December 2008, stating that the global aviation business would lose €2.5 billion in 2009. It is now on its fourth forecast, under which the projected loss is €11 billion. The issue for Aer Lingus is that the gap between the fair yield we can generate per passenger and the cost of providing the seat is widening. This is something we must address.

In summary then, the airline is over a barrel, facing certain death and in return the pilots want their Tailwind losses covered, an additional 4% in company stock given to them (stupidity premium, one presumes) and that their pensions are funded from outer space, the good fairy or the ghost of Michael Collins, because heaven knows their ain't no money in Aer Lingus for it.

More later, including the Dwarf's revealing testimony to parliament, verbatim.

[Lord Lardy]

Leo as always your infatuation with Aer Lingus amuses me. ;) You seem to dislike a certain someone called the 'dwarf'. Go on please tell, what's he done to you, after all you did start the thread :)

Quite sad really.

[suasdaguna]

the more i read posts by leo the more i'm convinced him and racedo share the same bed sit.

[EI-RB]

Enda Corneille, corporate affairs director at Aer Lingus, told The Times: “We are going through the process with the Civil Aviation Authority, which will give us the opportunity to reflag the airlines and fly them from the UK so that Dublin would become somewhere to fly to rather than from.”

He said that the move would allow pilots’ contracts to be changed in line with the terms under which its Gatwick-based pilots already operate. However, he emphasised that the process could take “a number of months”.

Irish carrier may quit Dublin for UK after pilots refuse pay cut - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6941437.ece)

No agreement with IALPA = self-inflicted extinction

[EI-BED]

Aer Lingus are looking for US pilots:

http://www.airlinepilots.com/jobs/airline_pilot_first_officer/uk_airports/a330_first_officer_washington_dulles-9639.html?refid=apJOTW-pos1-id9639 (http://www.airlinepilots.com/jobs/airline_pilot_first_officer/uk_airports/a330_first_officer_washington_dulles-9639.html?refid=apJOTW-pos1-id9639)

[Coquelet]

Fascinating how History can repeat itself for Mr Mueller; a few years ago, he was in exactly the same situation with Sabena ...

[milehighdriver]

You know as pilots were supposed to be able to see the big picture here! Unlike Leo Hairy-Camel I won't get down to the mud slinging and name calling.

However, If I was to stick my own head up some-body else's hairy hole, then I'm sure I'd find it very difficult to see what's going on in the real world!

A few pointer's on your last post

thinking their futile and reckless effort would halt the attempted take over by Ryanair. It didn’t, of course.

Well you can debate the how's and why's, but so far two rejected attempts. Tailwind was never purchased as a financial investment. It's a mechanism to prevent the same fate that occurred when Buzz was taken over. Money well spent there me thinks...

Ryanair wants, or rather, wanted to make a massive investment in Aer Lingus to have it thrive, with employment and futures for all

I'll blame that statement, on the fact that you've had your head stuck up there too long. Cherry pick and then flog off those well equipped airbus..

There's no better way to get the hair up among a group of legacy pilots than by fiddling with their pension fund. What a shame they hadn't taken responsibility for themselves like the rest of us do.

Well thats because Ryanair don't provide one. Be-grudgery or what!

[racedo]

Maybe he'll get it right this time....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

A dog pisses on the lampost the same way every day so no chance with Herr Mueller of doing anything different.

[curser]

Racedo I see you're on line and a quick check reveals that Leo is off...funny that.

[Sober Lark]

"A dog pisses on the lampost the same way every day so no chance with Herr Mueller of doing anything different. "

Sometimes they get electrocuted and can never do it again.

[drfaust]

Just my two cents worth. First I'd like to say that it's a tragedy that yet again one of our own in the industry is facing these kind of difficulties. In our industry, if it's going crap at one place, trouble can't be too far away for us. However, at some point people will just have to man up to the realities of the world and act and not just talk.

If I would personally have the choice of a career switch (i.e. bankrupcy) or let my workplace be degraded beyond any reaonable measure by the likes of Ryanair, I would surely choose to do something else. I agree as much as anyone else that a business has to be profitable for it to have a right to exist. Therefore all concerned in the company and their livelyhoods depending on that institution should consider a little solidarity and taking pay-cuts to rescue it. It does not warrant one set of rules for employee group x in comparison to a different set of rules to employee group y. It seems to me that IALPA is considering just that. There are ways to twist and turn about pension and compensation for buying stock, but personally I do not find it appropriate. No investor gets a refund if they lose money, so neither should they whether they are employees or not. It's just a shame that they are the only ones that initially invested the amount. Protecting other peoples interests from a hostile takeover with their own money, but that is a choice and risk they took.

If there are cuts, temporary or permanent, of any form -- everyone must bear responsibility in equal measure. From management on down. No preferential treatment for any group of employees. Still, any outcome is preferential to a Ryanair takeover from where I stand. If the industry standard is reduced to that (which thankfully it is not, albeit just yet) I really doubt alot of us would want to stick around.

But then again, in the world of the hairy camel everyone should be paying to do a job out of their own pockets so I guess I'm just from another planet.

[Ancient Observer]

As one who nowadays only lurks on R & N, I have to say that post 139 is not the most articulate of arguments in this discussion.

Get back to the basic debate - can Legacy carriers in Europe survive?
In my view the Economics are against them. No "temporary" savings will work.

[Cymmon]

Aer Lingus €6,000hr, Ryanscare €166.67hr.............................
erm, let me think who i´d like to work for. Thanks Leo hairy Camel for that info.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

That's as may be, Postman23, but calling them that tends to make them cross, in my experience. Good luck, though. Nice to see the old misogyny still in common use in today's modern age.

Well you can debate the how's and why's, but so far two rejected attempts.
Indeed we can, milehighdriver, but lets not delude ourselves. Your 4.5% is not now, nor ever was, sufficient to block anything more substantial than your Great Aunt Trudy's bowel movements. The deal was eventually scuppered, as you well know, by the recently replaced EU Competition Commissioner. You're right in that two attempts have failed, though. They certainly have, and in the days to come you might care to explain to our fellow Irishmen, customers, shareholders, investors and stake holders in Aer Lingus why you remain committed to the ridiculous notion that destruction is the objective when the complete opposite is the truth?
Cherry pick and then flog off those well equipped airbus.
Thanks to Aer Lingus' inability to compete, there are no cherries, milehighdriver. I'm not sure of how the world looks from the rare air of Howth and Mallahide or wherever it is you have your palace by the sea, but in the real world, there IS no market for airbus narrowbodies, well-equiped or otherwise. Ask Easyjet. In fact ask anyone not quite so deaf, blind, dumb and stupid as IALPA. No, milehighdriver, your Airbuses would have been used by us for what they're intended. Running a wildly successful airline. Grace and good breeding prevent me from pointing out that this is something that we're quite good at whereas you...well, you get the picture.

How do I get this thought through your Dwarf-addled skulls, which seem to grow thicker by the hour? Ryanair wanted to save Aer Lingus, to expand it, and offered cast iron guarantees about employment, The glorious West, the mad hatter's tea party you like to call your pension fund, and even those delicious 50 slots pairs at LHR. Guaranteed, in writing, and still you stood in the way. You don't often find that sort of commitment to failure in this day and age.

I've observed epileptics sharing a bowl of noodles who display more grace and committment to their futures than IALPA demonstrates over Aer Lingus. People wonder why I'm so viscerally anti-union, well here you have it in nutshell, folks. IALPA are holding their own airline hostage, demanding to be reimbursed for something approaching €80 million in funds lost on the stockmarket. The truly great comedy moment, though, the great 'Tah-Dah' in all this insane mélange of hubris, comes from knowing they also want another 4% stock given to them for the part they played in saving their airline from the jaws of certain rescue. Rather like burning your lifeboats just as the famous green ship goes down, very fast by the stern. When the dust settles on all this, your antics will have sealed the coffin on pilot unions once and for all, so I suppose I should thank you. Naught but a footnote in future classrooms of Hubris 101.

In the meantime, though, you evidently think striking in the runup to Christmas will save your bacon again, like so often in the past. You are wrong. Unless you come to your senses, and soon too, Aer Lingus will be a little more than a smudge on the pages of Irish history. I wonder how the Irish people will feel knowing the reason Aer Lingus is no more, boils down to 5 little letters.

I.A.L.P.A.

[milehighdriver]

Your 4.5% is not now, nor ever was, sufficient to block anything more substantial than your Great Aunt Trudy's bowel movements.

I'll refer to my previous statement - Well you can debate the how's and why's, but so far two rejected attempts. I've been able to sleep somewhat soundly knowing that I don't have to answer MOL and his cronies!

Thanks to Aer Lingus' inability to compete, there are no cherries,

So why the two failed attempts and a third one on the way?

milehighdriver. I'm not sure of how the world looks from the rare air of Howth and Mallahide or wherever it is you have your palace by the sea,

Actually, I'd say I'm located closer to the Mullingar Pikey. Howth or Malahide would be nice, I'll give you that!

Ryanair wanted to save Aer Lingus, to expand it, and offered cast iron guarantees about employment, the west, the mad hatter's tea party aka your pension fund, and even those delicious 50 slots pairs at LHR. Guaranteed, in writing. As still you stood in the way.

Oh please, when has cast iron guarantees and Ryanair ever been used in the same sentence!

People wonder why I'm so viscerally anti-union, well here you have it in nutshell, folks. IALPA are holding their own airline hostage, demanding to be reimbursed for something approaching €80 million in funds lost on the stockmarket.

As I said before, you've obviously had your head stuck up there too long. Otherwise you've spent too much time reading the Irish independent!

[Bearcat]

i note the talks have collapsed.....all sorts of conspiracy beliefs being aired (a) the company from day one had zero intention in engaging the unions but had to be seen to be going through the process before they pulled the pin and (b) Michaels ex hench man being able to deliver the company on a silver platter to him Jan 29th 2010.

[c220cdi]

Leo let it fail, clean house sometimes its the best way. A new start without the ialpa clowns. Leave them out at the roundabout with the mileholediver. Dont take up time and resources dealing with these clowns when ryanair has bigger fish to fry. Finally once and for all like a sick horse put them out of their misery . The irish tax payer is sick of aerlingus over paid peacock pilots holding us to ransome.Tailwind? more like tailspin down the toilet with everybody's cash.

[ItsAjob]

The irish tax payer is sick of aerlingus over paid peacock pilots holding us to ransome

How does that work?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Leo

You might like to add that the slots do not "belong" to Aer Lingus: they in fact, belong, to ACL, ergo they have no value.

Incidentally, how much value do they have to anyone when LHR 3rd runway is rejected and changes are imposed to cut emissions at LHR

[170to5]

C220

You might want to have a quick look at the Aer Lingus company profile before you make comment. They're a private company now, in fact, they have been for some time.

Do you have newspapers where you are?

[irish lad]

so will aerlingus sell these aircrafts or move them to the UK?

Ive been reading that it could remove 7 aircrafts from dublin... surely this will just give ryanair even more potential and profits at dublin airport, leading to a complete demolish of aerlingus in ireland eventually!

It really looks to me that its only time b4 The Harp becomes the national carrier of the republic :eek:

[no slot]

Leo,
Your command of English is extraordinary ( your content and effort, unfortunately, borders on insane ). Just wondering, would you consider giving my son grinds? I'll organise a visa for Howth.

In relation to ALT, time will tell. The imbalance in your protest highlights a deep insecurity. Is it fear? Your unhealthy obsession with AL and Ialpa is akin to that of the bunny boiler in Fatal Attraction.

Kind Regards,
no slot

p.s. go take a walk in Howth, it might clear that claustrophibic midlands mind.

[c220cdi]

170 to 5
Yes we do have newspapers and on occasion read them. You are the one who needs to research before you post. I am well aware to the company profile and alot more aware of it than you but you are too young to remember so let me give you a brief history lesson on aerlingus. Basically before it was a private company the place never made a profit (fact) they stumbled from one chrisis to another propped up on goverment handouts (pre 1991) . Then on two occasions in the recent past when the Tax payer had some chance of getting something back ,2.80 per share from ryanair they turn it down and what are they worth now 50 cent per share. All this to keep them flying when we dont have enough nurses on the wards. The end is near for aerlingus they have to face reality sometime. Where is the 150 million going to come from to plug the hole in the pilots pension. The country is going down the tubes and it looks now like we might have a strike before christmas. Enough is enough

[milehighdriver]

c220cdi,

I am well aware to the company profile and alot more aware of it than you but you are too young to remember so let me give you a brief history lesson on aerlingus. Basically before it was a private company the place never made a profit (fact)

I think old age is getting the better of you there. Before it was privatised, it never made a profit (fact). Oh really, I suggest you do your homework before giving us the arm-chair verbal diarrhoea.

All this to keep them flying when we dont have enough nurses on the wards

To keep who flying? Let me guess the over-paid pilots again! Have you had your head up in the same place as Leo?

[curser]

c220cdi, I remember. Aer Lingus was an employment centre for north Dublin and a centre of excellence in aviation for the nation. Aer Lingus was set up to connect our little isle to the world. Those years of loss that you remember where post deregulation and at that same time RyanAir was lossing vast sums of Tony Ryans personal wealth in order to keep his boy in employment. For the last few years Aer Lingus has done quite well, it has expanded hugely and connected Ireland to most of Europe, it has been largely profitable but has suffered as all airlines have in this crisis (RyanAir returned to loss again this year). The share price has no relation to the wealth of the company as minuscule stock is traded due to the current dead lock. If indeed you are what you pro port to be a concerned citizen concerned that we the people may not get our monies worth then join with us and insist that RyanAir sell its stake there by freeing up the free board and allowing the share price to realize its true worth. But that's not really what you're about, is it?

[170to5]

thanks lads!

[curser]

Got your back Chief.

[apaddyinuk]

Ah lads seriously, Stop giving c220 a hard time....his tirade of delrium is entertaining!!! I love whenever a new crack pot arm chair enthusiast joins the professionals in Pprune!!!!

[Bamse01]

Aer Lingus Recruitment
First Officer - Washington Dulles
On March 28th next, Aer Lingus will commence daily scheduled service between Washington Dulles and Madrid. This service will be operated in conjunction with our code-share partner United Airlines and will capitalise on the opportunity presented by the Open Skies agreement between the United States and the European Union.

We are currently looking for experienced First Officers to join Aer Lingus at our new long haul base in Washington Dulles. This is an exciting opportunity to be part of this new team from the beginning.

Aer Lingus will operate A330, twin class aircraft flying exclusively from Washington Dulles to our launch destination Madrid, Spain.

To be considered for a position as Aer Lingus First Officer, applicants must be able to meet the following criteria:

Key Competencies include:

Highly motivated and keen to take responsibility and accountability.
Strong leadership potential with well developed teamwork skills.
Excellent communication skills combined with proven interpersonal skills.
A broad awareness of our customers' expectations.
Flexible and adaptable with an enthusiastic and positive attitude to change.
Qualifications

FAA - ATPL with current A330 rating or JAA - ATPL with current A330 rating*.
Current Class 1 Medical.
Minimum 3000 flying hours with at least 1000 hours on A330 aircraft*.
English Language Proficiency (ELP) ICAO level 4 or higher.
Must fulfil government-required criminal background checks to qualify for unescorted access privileges to airport security identification display areas. Must secure airport authority and/or U.S. Customs security badges, if applicable.
United States citizen or possess the legal right to work and live in the U.S. without restriction.
Possess a current unrestricted worldwide passport.
Capable of arriving at Washington Dulles airport within 1 hour when on reserve duty.
Be prepared to adhere to all Aer Lingus uniform standards, including that no tattoos, body piercings or tongue rings are visible in the Aer Lingus Uniform. Tattoos may not be covered with adhesive bandages or by other methods, to render them not visible.
A minimum of 5ft 2in (1.58m) to a maximum of 6ft 3in (1.93m) in height, with weight in proportion, such that the ability to perform all job functions is not impacted or hindered. Qualified pilots who are taller than 6ft 3in (1.93m) may submit an application but will be required to undergo a functionality check to confirm their ability to meet the requirements of the seating positions in the Aer Lingus fleet of aircraft.
*Please note: In the event that we do not receive sufficient applicants with the required A330 rating, we will accept applications from First Officers who hold a current EU/JAA licence with an A320 rating and a minimum of 1000 hours on type.

To apply for these positions: Please complete the attached Application Form and return it by email to [email protected].

The closing date for receipt of applications is 12.00 noon EST on Wednesday 16th December 2009.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

From the Sunday Independent. (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/endgame-at-aer-lingus-1965676.html)
Sunday December 06 2009

BOLSHIE trade unions who obstinately refuse to accept economic reality, an organisation that is rapidly going broke, a business model that has been rendered totally obsolete by aggressive competitors. The longer the Aer Lingus saga drags on the more it seems like a microcosm for Ireland as a whole.

After eight weeks of shadow-boxing, the Aer Lingus endgame is rapidly approaching. This week the company's board decided to establish a taskforce to implement compulsory redundancies and reductions in the airline's fleet. The move, which looks like triggering a strike at Aer Lingus, comes after the trade unions refused to sign up for the €97m cost-cutting package unveiled by chief executive Christoph Mueller on October 7.

While some of the 4,000-strong Aer Lingus workforce have indicated a willingness to accept the Mueller plan, which includes 676 layoffs and 10 per cent pay cuts for all staff earning over €35,000 a year, two groups -- cabin staff and pilots -- have refused to agree.

The strongest opposition of all seems to be coming from the pilots.

Apparently these horny-handed sons of the soil, who are legally restricted to working a maximum of 900 hours annually and earn up to €300,000, are demanding a 4 per cent stake in the airline, among other things, before signing on the dotted line.

Get real. Aer Lingus is rapidly bleeding to death with its cash balances plunging from €654m at the middle of last year to just €440m by mid-2009.

Analysts reckon that the company's cash balances will have shrivelled to less than €300m by the end of this year. At this rate of cash burn Aer Lingus will be out of business by the end of 2010.

With Ryanair eating Aer Lingus alive on short-haul and competition from US airlines having turned the transatlantic market into a bloodbath the status quo is not an option. If the Aer Lingus trade unions make good on their strike threats will the airline's workers have jobs to go back to?

[c220cdi]

Apaddyinuk
Arm chair enthusiast i wish. Crack pot , possibly after all i was an ialpa memember for a few years until i realised what these guys were about.

[curser]

stop the lights!!! the indo doesn't like us!!! FFS leo if you must post, post news.
Now its 300,000 last week 400,000 if the indo keeps giving me pay cuts like that I shall shortly be paying to come to work, hmmm... wonder if that will catch on?

[VANWILDER]

Well Leo..,hows things....! 400000 to 300000 its really getting like ryanscare now....! First off we had a post a few days ago stating ryanair get 150000 now we all know thats :mad:....! Uk Capt get just about 95000p.a all in.....,as for the rest of euro....well apart from Dublin get 118000 and dub 125000.....! So I can understand how the rest of my work mates dont want to do a deal with management .., because no matter what :mad: they feed to us we know that as soon as we sign that dotted line are t+c are doomed like your work mates Leo who have none.....! I understand we are in bad shape but putting the blame on high wages is :mad:.., its a contributer but by going in and slashing wages and having a hard line approach has pissed off alot of people...! Ok come to the table with an open mind not with an ultimatum....!

[the grim repa]

I tohught we at ryanair,are supposed to the best paid pilots in europe.Does this mean that mol has been lying all along,shock,horror!!!!

[milehighdriver]

I told you Leo read the Indo. A quality read, that never lets facts get in the way of a good story!

[beernice]

Ladies and gentlemen,
what has always amazed me when talking to AEL pilots and cabin crew is the firm unshakable belief that the company cannot be allowed go bust. " Somebody" will step in to save them and worst case if redundancies have to be introduced the terms will be so generous it will tide them over for a few years and then they can reapply. Not one of the posts from the shamrock guys conveys a sense of " hey we might be in a spot of trouble here".
AEL is entering the end game, don't take my word for it, don't take Leo's just look at the share price. No company can continue to haemorrage cash at that rate and survive. AEL main market has bombed and coupled with a serious hike in Airport charges in Dublin we can expect passanger numbers to plumet for all airlines. Northern Ireland is also in the depth of a severe recession.And while AEL made an attempt to diversify in LGW it was too late. AEL are taking on an excellent well known orange brand in their own back yard. ( Hey LEO what you think of easy's yields being higher than FR?). FR is running out of Ireland to sunnier more profibable climes. So guys, the question any investor will ask, show me the money!! Where is it going to come from??
Those in AEL are of the firm belif that they are far better off alone and its only a matter of time before the miracle happens and the money rolls in.The rest of the world disagrees. So what if AEL is forced to merge? Whats it got. To non Irish companies it has slots in Heathrow. To spite what an company making an offer for AEL might say and what promises it gives it will only be after the slots. AEL long haul is shot and can you see any company commiting the resorces to take on FR in its back yard in a market that is on its knees? They will buy and asset strip- no question.
Then there is the FR offer- not my call.
As for the AEL pilots share holding- Do you really think holding over 4% of shares will make an differance to a take over. This will be decided between the cash starved goverment and the EU. And make no mistake this goverment is desperate, selling its stake in AEL would mean it could roll out a cervical screening programme for teenage girls. What do you think would go down better with the voters?

So whats going to happen? The old boys in AEL run IALPA and make no mistake, sacraficing the company to ensure their pensions is a small price to pay. Just keeping the company struggling along for a couple of years means a huge amount to these boys pensions, ( By the way how much does AEL owe the pension pot?).
A while back I would have said the future is AEL hands but not any more, its too late for that.

[heidelberg]

AL unions/employees better realise the end is nigh if they do not agree NOW to the new T&C's requested by management.
I use AL whenever I can - so long as the price difference (nearly always dearer) is within reason when compared to other airlines within Europe or when crossing the big pond.
It is - almost - entirely the fault of the AL unions/employees it is now near the end game.
The past is past and the good old days will NEVER come back.
(This applies to thousands of businesses in the ROI)
If the necessary changes now requested by management are implemented AL might survive - but there are no guarantees because it's main customer base, the ROI, will not recover economically until at least 2013/4. Can it hang in there in the meantime?
I will not put my NAMA loan on it!
(For those of you located outside of the ROI, NAMA is the National Asset Management Agency set up by our Government to take the toxic building loans off the Banks at the taxpayers expense - God help us).

[TheRedVonBaron]

Beernice,

the government, ultimately the kingmakers in my opinion, where as much at their knees last february when they rejected FR's second approach. They have stated that they support a "two airline policy". The money they would receive at current EI share price would cover only half of the money the government here are losing per week. The cervical screening scheme is a very worthy project, but funding it by handing FR a virtual monopoly of Irish air travel would be very questionable. MOL himself was very concerned about this very cause last year when trying to convince the public about his bid for AL. Im sure if he ran a charity campaign along the lines of his lisbon referendum campaign, a lot of money could be raised for such a project. Times are tough here in Ireland, and for the government, its no longer a popularity contest. Tough decisions have to be made, and there will be a lot more pain to come for all of us, as Irish citizens, on wednesday with the forthcoming budget.

[Love_joy]

Pie in the sky this, but IF O'Leary/LHC could sever all ties with Ryanair - would he then be the right man to run Aer Lingus?

He'd have my vote. But even if he took the reigns tomorrow, would there still be an airline for him to run in 6 months time?

I genuinely hope that AL pull through this slump. It was the dream of flying for them that brought me into this industry and I still maintain today that it will happen.

Best of luck to all at AL

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Editorial Comment from Today's Irish Times. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1208/1224260292838.html)

Aer Lingus faces crucial decisions

THE SCALE of the problems facing Aer Lingus are reflected in its sizeable losses – €108 million last year and a further €93 million in the first half of 2009 – and the rate at which the airline is haemorrhaging cash as it struggles to return to profitability. Time is not on its side. By last June, the company’s net cash position had almost halved in just 12 months – declining by some €363 million. And since then, its cash balance has deteriorated further. Unless the airline makes far-reaching changes to its cost base, its future as an independent operator is not sustainable.

In negotiations with trade unions representing its workforce, the airline is seeking major job and pay cuts as well as changes in work practices to produce annual savings of €97 million. Progress has been made in talks with cabin crew but there is no agreement with pilots, the highest paid cohort within Aer Lingus. And in the absence of an accord with all unions, a management taskforce was established last week to consider the possibility of compulsory redundancies and fleet reduction. Chief executive Christoph Mueller has indicated that it will seek “north” of 1,000 job losses as it grounds aircraft and closes loss-making routes.

All airlines are operating in tough market conditions, beset by a range of uncertainties including the economic downturn, fluctuating oil prices and intense competition between carriers as a price war escalates and passenger fares are cut. But Aer Lingus has encountered its own particular difficulties. It has defeated two hostile takeover attempts by Ryanair and the past 15 months have seen major management changes at chairman and chief executive level.

The big problem confronting Aer Lingus is its continuing status as a high-cost airline struggling to compete against low-cost carriers such as Ryanair and EasyJet. The latter have much lower cost bases and operate with greater efficiency in a low fares market. Aer Lingus has engaged in a succession of cost-cutting exercises in recent years but as the economic downturn intensified, it has struggled to compete in both the short-haul and long-haul (transatlantic) markets. Payroll costs at the company remain far higher than at its counterparts.

For Aer Lingus to survive as an independent operator, it must make a very painful adjustment to its cost base. Otherwise it will be vulnerable either to a third takeover bid from Ryanair or to a scenario, as Michael O’Leary predicted recently, whereby Ryanair will be responding within a couple of years to an Aer Lingus request “to rescue it”.

For now, Aer Lingus remains master of its own fate with a brand that continues to command significant customer loyalty. But for how long that remains the case will be determined by the success or failure of the latest attempt to turn it around. As a company in which the employees have a substantial shareholding (19 per cent), the interests of workers and shareholders are closely aligned. That should make a resolution of its difficulties more achievable. But there is no minimising the risks and challenges involved.

[Cacophonix]

Leo

What's your skin in this game fellah?

Nb

[milehighdriver]

Leo

What's your skin in this game fellah?

That will be staying up late, drinking coffee and stroking his own ego! Sad little man!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

From today's Financial Times. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/592e3aa6-e437-11de-bed0-00144feab49a.html)

Aer Lingus chief warns of Ryanair threat
By Pilita Clark, Aerospace Correspondent


The new head of Aer Lingus has warned that the Irish airline risks being taken over by its larger rival Ryanair unless employees agree to his plans for sweeping cost cuts.

“If Aer Lingus isn’t capable of mastering its own destiny, then of course the likelihood that some form of non-independence might occur is more likely,” Christoph Mueller told the Financial Times on Tuesday.

Asked if this meant a takeover by Ryanair, Europe’s biggest low-cost carrier, which has made two thwarted bids for Aer Lingus, Mr Mueller said: “Yes.”

Under Irish takeover rules, Ryanair can make a third bid from late January.

“I believe there is a correlation between our ability to have an agreement with the unions and the likelihood of a bid,” Mr Mueller said. Ryanair holds just over 29 per cent of Aer Lingus. The Irish flag carrier’s staff own 15 per cent of its shares.

Mr Mueller, formerly of the TUI travel group and Germany’s Lufthansa, has been Aer Lingus chief executive since September. He has made progress with cabin crew and ground staff in talks on a €97m cost-saving plan involving job and pay cuts, but is still negotiating with pilots.

“I know that it is the desire of all our employees to stay independent and that is the reason I feel obliged to do everything I possibly can to reach an agreement with the unions,” said Mr Mueller. “One group of employees is resisting and bringing Aer Lingus closer to a situation where we might lose our independence.”

Aer Lingus reported a pre-tax loss of €119.7m for the year to December 31 and analysts say a failure to cut costs could jeopardise its independence.

“If there is a failure in the negotiations it leaves Aer Lingus much more vulnerable,” said Joe Gill of Bloxham stockbrokers in Dublin.

“If talks collapse you are back to looking at a business model that is fundamentally impaired. That will be reflected in the share price, so it’s easier for Ryanair to say they can come in and do a better job.”

Ryanair first bid €2.80 a share for Aer Lingus in October 2006, valuing the company at €1.48bn. That takeover was blocked by the European Commission on competition grounds.

A second bid worth half that of the first in December last year also failed after the Irish government, which has a 25 per cent stake in Aer Lingus, said it undervalued the airline.

Michael O’Leary, Ryanair’s chief executive, told the Financial Times recently Ryanair was “highly unlikely” to make a third offer for Aer Lingus, but added: “I think the government and unions will come here to us and ask us to help restructure Aer Lingus in a sensible way, probably ask us to manage it.”

[Sober Lark]

Who pays this filibuster to post as Leo?

[TRY2FLY]

Pilots say Aer Lingus talks collapse

RTÉ Business: Pilots say Aer Lingus talks collapse (http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1209/aerlingus.html)

[170to5]

35 million euro in cost savings and the company say that the pilots haven't delivered enough?

Are we to take it, then, that what the company actually wanted to achieve was 30 million euro (the figure I believe they asked for) and the disbandment of the union.

Such a shame, seeing as Muller was so keen to prove that a 'unionised airline could work' - as long as, presumably, the union was happy to bend over and cave in whenever the company came up with yet another remarkable, heavy handed and inappropriately named plan?

:ugh:

[shogan1977]

Aer Lingus strike fears grow as 1,000 jobs axed - National News, Frontpage - Herald.ie (http://www.herald.ie/national-news/aer-lingus-strike-fears-grow-as-1000-jobs-axed-1961107.html)

Have tickets booked from Brussels to Dublin to be with family at Christmas... should I have back-up plan with Ryanair? How serious are the chances of a strike over Christmas period?

[EI-RB]

RTÉ Business: Aer Lingus finance chief resigns (http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1209/aerlingus.html)

[QUOTE]The number two executive at Aer Lingus has resigned his position and is also to leave the company's board.
Chief financial officer Sean Coyle had joined the airline from Ryanair only 17 months ago, in August 2008. A statement from Aer Lingus said Mr Coyle would leave his job at the end of the year by mutual agreement.
[QUOTE]

I wonder is Coyle after the Easyjet job since Andy Harrison has said he will resign from June of next year. This is a surprise announcement.

[170to5]

Hark! Even the darkest clouds have some form of reflective lining!

I trust that he is leaving to allow him to "spend more time with his family", and we would all, I'm sure "wish to thank Sean for the valuable contribution he has made to the company since he joined". (Or should that be "for the valuable withdrawals he has made from the company"??)

Indeed, we may even want to "wish him all the very best of luck for his future"

Anyone looking for a PR man?! I can e-mail a CV!

[45989]

Word is he could'nt learn German. Was well signposted
Not many will miss the mole eitherway

[c220cdi]

170 to 5
Dont have a party just yet. What is it they say about rats off a sinking ship. You just might find yourself in the near future spending a little more quality time at home with the family.:=

[Tooloose]

Only three of the Golden Parachute Regiment still in the departure lounge. Word is at least one of them will not be waiting long.

[CamelhAir]

Word is Coyle was antagonistically looking for IR trouble in a way anathema to even the rest of management. Now who might excessive IR chaos at EI benefit most? No suprises as to who he was really working for all along. The only surprise is it took EI so long to figure it out.
How long before he's back in the white house? Only this time without the promise of running "ryanair operated by Aer Lingus".

[c220cdi]

Camelair
No surprise who he was working for?
What on earth could he learn working in aerlingus, possibly how to blow 700 million. Ryanair has no big secret to learn from arelingus i suspect aerlingus could do with sending a mole accross the street to ryanair ,might learn a thing or too. Willy walked away to better things.

[CamelhAir]

c220, you're a bit off the mark there. Try again. Think somewhere along the lines of the consequences of having your own man inside if you want to take over a company.

[170to5]

c220

What a great, sobering response to what I thought was quite an amusing little post! I have now learnt the error of my ways. Thanks, Merc man.:hmm:

[no slot]

C220,

you said " rats off a sinking ship ". The first ship he jumped off was blue and white. On the green ship, looks like he may have been given the bullet for miscalculating a recent redundancy and migration package, and for failing to reflect a considerable DB pension deficit on the balance sheet.

Which ship did he jump from first? and second? was he pushed?

rgds
no slot

[peacock1]

....so,if he's "spending more time with the family", from now on, how,s about a suggested reading list?

1.) King RAT.....by James Clavell

2.) Secret diary of Adrian MOLE...

any more witty suggestions, lads?

[EI-RB]

Drama Drama you could write a book on this stuff.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Irish Times. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1210/1224260427347.html)

CIARÁN HANCOCK, Business Affairs Correspondent

AER LINGUS has told Enterprise, Trade and Employment Minister Mary Coughlan it will seek 1,065 compulsory redundancies if it fails to reach agreement on its €97 million cost-cutting plan with its trade unions.

A letter from Aer Lingus human resources director Michael Grealy, dated December 7th, which has been seen by The Irish Times , outlines to the Minister the airline’s “proposed collective redundancies” on a “compulsory basis”.

Aer Lingus said 590 staff would be cut from its ground service operations in Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports from a total of 2,000 employees in this area.

Ground services comprises management, operatives and clerical, and maintenance and specialists staff.

Aer Lingus will seek 336 redundancies from cabin crew at these locations from a total of 1,400.

The airline also plans to cut 139 pilots from 520 based in Dublin and Cork.

Aer Lingus said the redundancies would be implemented between January 1st next year and the end of March 2011.

“In the case of Dublin, Cork and Shannon airport, Aer Lingus is forecasting significant losses for 2009 and beyond,” the letter from Mr Grealy states.

He said it was “critical” for Aer Lingus to “immediately take steps to radically change” its staff costs base to align it with other airlines. “It has not been possible to achieve the necessary savings by agreement, hence the need for compulsory redundancies,” Mr Grealy’s letter added.

Aer Lingus has been in consultation with its trade unions – Siptu, Impact, pilots’ body Ialpa and the Craft Group of Trade Unions – since October 7th.

Ialpa said yesterday that talks between pilots and Aer Lingus broke down last night without agreement.

The pilots’ representative body said Aer Lingus had rejected a cost-reduction package proposed by the pilots which would have amounted to €33 million a year.

Ialpa said this involved pay cuts, pay freezes and a substantial reduction in pilot numbers.

Aer Lingus disputed this. “While some progress was made, the level of savings offered by Ialpa fell significantly below what was required by the company,” the airline said.

“Much of the savings came from reductions in pilot numbers at the very top of the scales. However, the level of pay cuts/pay freezes proposed from those who will stay with the company were insufficient.

“Other employees recognise the financial position of the company and are prepared to act accordingly, Ialpa are not.”

Enda Corneille, Aer Lingus’s corporate affairs director, said agreement had been reached with Impact, which represents cabin crew, Siptu and the craft union.

“There is simply no movement from the pilots,” Mr Corneille added.

Evan Cullen, Ialpa’s president, rejected this and said the union remained open to negotiation. “We are always available for talks subject to our roster duties,” he said.

[Bearcat]

Following on from Leo's deft skills of cutting and pasting. There's more to this than meets the eye.

AER LINGUS has parted company with its chief financial officer and head of short-haul operations Seán Coyle, who was headhunted from Ryanair just 16 months ago.

It is understood Mr Coyle had disagreed with Aer Lingus’s new chief executive Christoph Mueller on the future strategic direction of the airline.

Aer Lingus said Mr Coyle would leave by “mutual agreement” at the end of December to “pursue other interests”.

Mr Coyle has also resigned from the board of Aer Lingus.

Aer Lingus said it had begun a search to appoint a new CFO “in due course”.

In a statement Mr Coyle said: “I would like to thank the board and my colleagues for their assistance and support during my time with the company and I would like to wish Aer Lingus every success in the future.”

The new CFO will be the fourth person to fill this role since 2005, following in the footsteps of Brian Dunne, Greg O’Sullivan and Mr Coyle.

It is understood that Mr Mueller, who took the reins in September, wants to reshape the Aer Lingus business model to include more alliances and joint ventures with other carriers.

He is believed to have given the green light to plans for a transatlantic alliance with United Airlines to fly from Washington DC to Madrid.

There has also been speculation that Aer Lingus might rejoin the OneWorld airline alliance.

Mr Coyle is believed to have wanted to continue the process of making Aer Lingus a low-cost, point-to-point, short-haul carrier, using a model similar to that of Ryanair. Mr Coyle, who is 36, was headhunted in August 2008 by then Aer Lingus chief Dermot Mannion, who himself left the airline earlier this year.

He was the first Ryanair executive to defect to the former State-owned airline.

Mr Coyle, a qualified chartered accountant, was director of scheduled revenue at Ryanair. He had joined Ryanair in 1998, serving initially as a personal assistant to CEO Michael O’Leary.

Mr Coyle had been touted by many analysts as a potential future CEO of Aer Lingus.

In a note to clients yesterday, Bloxham aviation analyst said: “To say this is a surprising development would be something of an understatement. There is no indication that he is joining another company at present.”

[Tooloose]

Bloxhams must have their heads firmly embedded in some dark place. The dogs in the Aer Lingus Street have been waiting for this for the past two months. The board eventually found it impossible to ignore the amount of "confidential" information at MOL's disposal. And to describe him as No. 2 at Aer Lingus is a bit of a stretch. He was No. 2 in scatological order only.

[racedo]

He is believed to have given the green light to plans for a transatlantic alliance with United Airlines to fly from Washington DC to Madrid.


So Herr Mueller is apparently giving a green light to a service detailed and agreed last January with fares on sale for a considerable time :ugh::ugh:

United, Aer Lingus boost trans-Atlantic pact - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-01-23-united-aer-lingus_N.htm)

[John_Mc]

My friend works in Ryanair head office and she was in the office the day he handed in his notice. MOL had him escorted out by security and he mad a big speech to all staff like his usual pomous vulgar self, asking if anyone else wanted to move to a mickey mouse airline.

If Coyle has been spying, as some here are suggesting, then it would seem MOL is quite the actor!

[racedo]

My friend works in Ryanair head office and she was in the office the day he handed in his notice. MOL had him escorted out by security and he mad a big speech to all staff like his usual pomous vulgar self, asking if anyone else wanted to move to a mickey mouse airline.

If Coyle has been spying, as some here are suggesting, then it would seem MOL is quite the actor!

Its funny that so many EI people think getting rid of Coyle is great news because he worked previously for FR...................got a funny feeling that they will realise their mistake soon enough.

[Bearcat]

I aint EI but am against one single aviation authority holding court in ireland, being FR which is on the cards. If it happens so be it if there are no implications, likewise EI departing dublin as a base is not without foundation.

[EI320]

Following on from Leo's deft skills of cutting and pasting. There's more to this than meets the eye.

AER LINGUS has parted company with its chief financial officer and head of short-haul operations Seán Coyle, who was headhunted from Ryanair just 16 months ago.

It is understood Mr Coyle had disagreed with Aer Lingus’s new chief executive Christoph Mueller on the future strategic direction of the airline.

Have you a link to this article?

[Finn47]

Here:
Coyle to leave airline after 16 months - The Irish Times - Thu, Dec 10, 2009 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1210/1224260427419.html)

[ska-bearbaiter]

Following on from Leo's deft skills of cutting and pasting. There's more to this than meets the eye......So, Leo, you're pretty adapt at the old cut and paste then............I dont suppose it was you who wrote Arstraeus' A320 Ops Manual by any chance??????:rolleyes:

(Sorry about the thread drift there....just couldnt resist!)

[flygj]

That Christophe Mueller was appointed as CEO of Sabena years ago, and we saw what happened. His comments today are the same he did in the past. He was probably paid to dismantle Sabena, and I wouldn't be surprised it's the same now with Air Lingus....

[Lord Lardy]

if anyone else wanted to move to a mickey mouse airline.

Is this the same mickey mouse airline the company he works for is desperate to get hold of? :hmm:

[threemiles]

Expert in ruining every place he was. Müller was incapable of doing any of the CEO jobs he had. Sabena, Tuifly.... even working together with him at Lufty was a nightmare. Whoever decided to make him CEO at EI was either drunk or at drugs.

[ItsAjob]

Expert in ruining every place he was. Müller was incapable of doing any of the CEO jobs he had. Sabena, Tuifly.... even working together with him at Lufty was a nightmare. Whoever decided to make him CEO at EI was either drunk or at drugs.

Your right there.
Job to job, to jobless, to bluffing his way into Aer Lingus.

Who in their right mind would hire him as CEO after looking at his history? Maybe he has a totally different CV?

[MCDU2]

Well lets not forget that these muppets were the same people that employed Sean Coyle who has now left under "mutual agreement" after less than 2 years in the job following his mate Mannion and the old HR stalward Liz White. In other words don't let the door hit you on the way out. Lots of allegations flying about of the real reasons but nevertheless it highlights that there is a real power struggle going on at the head office. Those such as herr mueller that believe we should provide a degree of bang for the customers buck and be back in the One World Alliance and those such as Coyle that wanted to race to the bottom. Not hard to see who won that argument.

Without getting pprune sued lets just say that the rumours of Coyles departure (apparently he has been gone a wee while) tend to follow a similar theme. Perhaps shall we say he left his previous employer on better terms than most?

[beach_life]

Aer Lingus cfo resigns | ABTN (http://www.abtn.co.uk/news/1113520-aer-lingus-cfo-resigns)

[h&s]

that's a fantastic news for aer lingus, maybe the airline will finally survive!!!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Irish Times. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1218/1224260883985.html)

Connections are everything when it comes to business

NET RESULTS: Aer Lingus’s dropping of its two-year-old direct Dublin-San Francisco route has been more than just a frustration, writes KARLIN LILLINGTON

IF YOU were looking for a location to set up your office in Ireland, what would influence that choice?

The majority of people would say location. For a small subset, “location” might be a beautiful, relaxing setting or a small village they love, all off the beaten track. But for most, a good business location means somewhere that is well connected – a reasonably easy commute, with good transport connections.

The same holds internationally. The more hops you have to a journey, the less attractive that journey becomes. Direct links make for easier flight connections, and a more attractive location for investment or to form relationships with partner companies.

It’s one thing if you are planning a holiday trip to, say, Vietnam or Kenya, which might involve two or three flights and some awkward connections. The unique nature of the holiday means you are likely to tolerate the tedium and inconvenience of the journey. But what if you had to make that journey many times a year for work? The route could quickly become exasperating.

That’s why Aer Lingus’s dropping of its two-year-old direct Dublin-San Francisco route has been more than just a frustration – it has caused alarm among many of those with interests in the technology sector. Yes, we do have a direct flight still to Boston, another tech centre, which has been important. I recall a conversation with one chief executive who told me the main reason he based his technology company in Boston years ago was the direct Dublin flight, and the lack of same to San Francisco or San José meant the company didn’t go there.

I know many feel Ireland benefited from having that brief, direct flight into San Francisco and saw it as a real selling point to form connections for foreign direct investment and to encourage Irish companies out to the Valley.

Since the flight ended, the topic has come up regularly as a frustration among entrepreneurs and those who work for the Irish operations of Silicon Valley-based companies.

Just before the flight closed indefinitely, I ran into the Enterprise Ireland Leadership 4 Growth group of chief executives heading for Stanford University, queuing to board the flight in Dublin airport. The ending of the route was a concern for many of them. On my return, I noted the Aer Lingus desk at San Francisco had posted a welcome sign for a group of Irish-American Valley chief executives – those desirable diaspora – coming across for an investment event.

Ironic, then, that just as we are trying to forge Valley connections for Ireland, it will become far more tedious to get back and forth. My most recent trip, via London, involved an exhausting journey in both directions and the loss of an entire work day on arrival due to poor midday Dublin connections from Heathrow.

Okay, so you get a bit tired, you say, but does a little personal inconvenience really matter? In the giant scheme of things, of course it is merely an annoyance. But the loss of our direct link to Silicon Valley is worrying at a time when most of the smart-economy impetus and so many of our big multinational tech-sector employers come out of this region.

When I recently interviewed serial internet entrepreneur Ray Nolan, whose Web Reservations International, parent company of Hostelworld.com, had just been sold for in excess of €200 million, he felt the loss of the flight was a big negative at the time when the State is trying to encourage techsector investment and creativity.

He thought it would narrow opportunities because it adds a layer of hassle, and is of the opinion that Irish technology start-ups need to be looking at Silicon Valley as a destination and learning centre.

Google’s director of finance and business intelligence, David Martin, raised the issue during a recent Leviathan public debate at TCD’s Science Gallery. I missed the event but rang him to get his perspective.

“It’s great that we’re all committed to building out a strong economy, but we need linkages,” he says. “The lack of a direct flight really hampers that development. Obviously, having it helps foster more interaction and it acts as a catalyst for meeting up with people.”

For companies such as Google, a direct flight makes it far easier for senior people within the company to get to Ireland, which can help spur further expansion or prompt investment in the first place. Yes, Google set up in Ireland before there was such a flight, he says, and it clearly isn’t critical. But such links help.

“The reality is that a lot of smart-economy companies are based on the west coast of the US,” he says. A direct flight “is an enabler, and could be an important enabler”.

Many in the business community will be waiting with fingers crossed when Aer Lingus announces its spring schedule and will pray the direct flight returns – or that another airline picks up the slot, perhaps when Terminal 2 opens with US passport clearance.

Here’s hoping.

[Gulpers]

Don't feed the Camel.

[stansdead]

Leo,

That's great news.

When are Lufthansa starting DUB-SFO?

Much love,

Stan x

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

They already run the service, Stan, via FRA and MUC.

Get it?

[Tom the Tenor]

Another opportunity for Ryanair to start Dublin to St Johns and then a loco code share with Westjet to San Francisco via Calgary. Only Euro 19.99 per sector. Ireland's low wage dot coms would save a fortune on those business class fares!

[stansdead]

No Leo, sorry, I don't.

Are you trying to insinuate that you are going to try fly the route (you pushing away from behind - as usual) on your little blue 737's?

I do hope so. It would be lovely to see. Truly, it would.

I'm sure it's just what all passengers have been waiting for.

And what with an expert, well trained, worldwide capable team like Ryanair have in their flightdecks it's bound to be a raging success.

Bring it on I say. Just like I do when your "girls" bring round the "charity" calendar. Anything to ease the strain on my eyes in the cabin.

Will you still sell those exceptionally good value sandwiches/pre boarding/scratchcards/buy one get one free bullseye baggies/stansted express tickets/smokeless cigarettes/cabin crew training courses/type ratings..............that will make it grindingly familiar at least.

It's bound to be huge. I can't wait to see it.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Howya Tom,

We already have airport agreements in place at MHR. Just waiting on the planes.

Nice drive from there to Silicon Valley.

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, folks, yez all heard it on here first - one of the first long haul destinations by Ryanair to North America will be Sacramento.

If Boeing are playing hardball with new 737 orders why not offer to buy some new 767s - a post 9/11 kind of sweet deal would surely be agreed to by Boeing on 767s and would be a softish, less risky entry to long haul?

I should guess that most of the BA, DL, AA, CO, UA 767-300s are still flying on the line so they got to be doing something right?

[LAX]

Blimey Leo.

Sacto as a base??? Lived there for a couple of years. Great mountain bike trails by the River, San Fran to the west, Lake Taho and great skiing to the east.

In fact - didn't the gold rush start in Sacramento, yep.

I'll call PB monday and ask him to put me top of the list for a base transfer.

I think its the high tax that makes these europeans whiney!

Thanks:ok:

[Pako9]

Where do you get off my friend on other peoples miseries. Well, they do say 'Misery loves company'. :O It's all such a load of baloney you write:=.

[170to5]

...surely that article misses the whole point. If there was enough call for a direct link, it wouldn't have been dropped? The people who used it will miss it, but if that only amounts to 20 people a day, tough luck. Even Ryanair, the masters of the universe (we are led to believe), wouldn't keep it going! What was your point when you posted that article, Leo?

You're not suggesting that Ireland's struggle to compete on the world technology stage is thanks to Aer Lingus pulling out of San Francisco are you?!

[Just a spotter]

A poor article by the Irish Times IMHO, written with as much insight into business decision making as most tabloid writers demonstrative about aviation.

Having worked as a senior manager for an Irish arm of a US multinational I know for a fact that direct flights were not a significant consideration in locating an operation in any location. Any airport in Ireland is one hour from the LHR or a little more from CDG, FRA or AMS, all very well connected. So long as connectivity to the main hubs is accessible and esay it is not an impediment.

For companies such as Google, a direct flight makes it far easier for senior people within the company to get to Ireland, which can help spur further expansion or prompt investment in the first place. Yes, Google set up in Ireland before there was such a flight, he says, and it clearly isn’t critical. But such links help.Well, the owners of Google have matching 767's and the company owns a number of private aircraft. They, like most FDI companies, are in Ireland primarily for the tax regime, secondly for IDA support and thirdly for the workforce.

If Irish businesses want to attract investors here then they will and always have, had to go to where the money is. Businesses go where they can make the most money, not where it's simply convenient to get to (one could say that also holds true for the airport selection of a certain airline).

JAS

[cactusbusdrvr]

Mather (MHR) - you've got to be kidding. SMF has plenty of gate space and the passengers would get lost trying to find MHR.

Sacramento is a long way to Silicon Valley compared to the other airports in the Bay area. OAK has always been the low cost entry into the area. SJC has a nice 11000 foot runway they lengthened for American so they could have all those Asian bound flights out of their hub there. Oops, that didn't last too long. Lots of space in SJC, too.

FR are going to fly nonstop to a remote California airport in a new type in a marginal market? Good luck there.

I do not understand why you all are bashing the EI long haul skippers for making a good wage. That should be the going rate for an experienced international widebody captain. That's what the JAL and ANA native skippers make. Even Southwest Airlines has some pilots pulling in over 300K US per year, flying their butts off, working the system. The pay should be in that range, the post 911 race to the bottom for pilot wages is a manager's wet dream. Pencil pushers hate pilots, we think too much and we can sift out bull****e better than other work groups. Engineers (the designers, not the mechanics) would love to eliminate pilots because they can't do what we can do. Their love for the computer will not stand the thought that a human could actually be better at responding to emergencies than their beloved machines.

Plus the fact that an A330 holds at least twice the pax load of a 737, even one crammed to the gills with "low fare customers". So the EI flightcrew are hauling twice as many revenue producing seats it should stand to reason that they be paid more than the 737 crew. Speed plus payload has been a pilot salary determinator for decades. Pilots should not be made to pay the price for manageent incompetence, pilots should be paid for the skill set and the experience they bring to the table. If you want to make a concession during a company's difficulties then by all means negotate said concession, just don't let that concession be made permanent like every so many negotiations have been since 2001.