FAA withdraws flightcrew duty, rest NPRM

[Shillin3]

FAA withdraws flightcrew duty, rest NPRM | Pilotbug (http://www.pilotbug.com/?p=1668)

The FAA issued a withdrawal (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-28054.pdf) of its 1995 Notice of Published Rulemaking (NPRM) on establishing rest, duty and flight time limitation of flight crewmembers. In that document, the FAA stated the NPRM had become outdated and because it raised so many issues that the FAA needed to address it decided to that new proposal will follow. Long before and in the 14 years since, the rest, duty and flighttime requirements have been studied continually and proposal after proposal have been put out there and nothing has come from it. The February crash of Colgan 3407 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407)in Buffalo, NY was just the last of the so-called “clarion call” regarding what to do about tired pilots. It is simply unbelievable that a NPRM has languished for nearly a decade and a half without any final rule on duty and rest.

[413X3]

I thought we were blaming < 1500tt wonders for all crashes

[411A]

These day's there is no time for a run nor swim, no time for sleep, just confinement inside that tiny cockpit. The job is no longer a healthy occupation. (Years ago a pilot had free time to run & swim even while on an airline trip.)

Negative.
The problem is...commuting.
ALL pilots should absolutely be required to live at the location of their assigned primary duty station...period.
No excuses.

Then, plenty of time for off-duty rest.
Sadly, pilots are their own worst enemy, in this regard.

Airline managements need to crack down on this commuting nonsense, pronto.
Pilots...don't like it...pack your bags and leave, and don't let the HR door slap you on the behind, on the way out.
Plenty of recruits in todays marketplace to take your place, make no mistake.:E

[act700]

411A, unfortunately there is no one size fits all solution to this.

For example, there are some airline bases, that even if you paid me millions, I still wouldn't want to live there!

...and on and on and on...

[varkdriver495]

411A

Step away from the bottle...what a blockhead statement...most individuals would rather live in/near their base...many started out that way, until their airlines closed that crew base. Commuting the last 19 years was not my idea...but those are cards that were dealt. Want to count how many pilot crew bases have closed the last 20 years...your head would spin if you chased after every desirable base.

[Dan Winterland]

The F/O in the Coglan crash couldn't afford to live at her base. There are a lot of factors as to why pilots commute and in this case, inadequate remuneration plays a part.

[sb_sfo]

The F/O in the Colgan crash probably couldn't afford to live at any base- she was living with her folks in SEA, I believe, and based in where, JFK? That's insane...

I'll make a prediction here, the FAA will do fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif-all on this issue.

[411A]

... inadequate remuneration plays a part.

A very large part, as it turns out.
This needs to change, pronto.
And, until this situation changes, especially for the regional airline pilots in the USA, expect continued problems.

[stilton]

I have commuted for the last 19 years. The hub my Airline fly's out of has some of the most expensive real estate in the world and a commensurate cost of living.


No salary adjustment is made for this and yet there is one in one of our much smaller hubs in the Pacific. For myself on a single income it is prohibitively expensive.


As far as commuting and fatigue are concerned, not a factor for me, flying almost exclusively long haul with evening departures I take the first flight up from home in the morning, on arrival I have lunch then take a long snooze in our rest area all afternoon showing up well rested for departure.


Unlike many of our locally living Pilots who often show up tired after battling rush hour traffic and or dealing with issues at home all day.



In fact I don't know any of our commuting Pilots who are not equally conscientous.



411a, as usual, in matters other than the L1011 has it completely wrong.

[snaproll3480]

411,

In the current state of the industry few pilots have the chanve to live in base. For example, there is a large contingent of Continental pilots who live in Denver having moved there when CAL has a base there. Now its closed, has been for a while now. Do you expect all of those pilots to uproot their families, sell their houses etc, to follow the airline's business plan? Perhaps YOU do, but it simply isn't practical. Now let's look at the regionals. These airlines, and I worked for one for almost 10 years, open and close bases sometimes yearly. How could anyone move an entire family to follow this pattern? The only way is to find a place that you like with lots of flight to wherever you might be based. There is one more issue. There is no way to support an entire family on a regional pilot's pay in the NY/NJ/CT area. I know, I lived it. The airlines, not the pilots, created the commuting situation.

[tailstrikecharles]

Why you guys feel the urgent need to jump up and shout vociferously at 411A's barbs is beyond me! :p Can you not see he is having a little fun at your expense?

The real issue is not commuting time nor, as 411A generously suggests, compensation, its simply that duty time is not calculated as duty done and you could have many additional hours of real WORK before you even touch a joystick or yoke - and afterwards. Tons of paperwork to do (not to mention the infamous Northwest rostering system that consumed them on their laptops).

[Springer1]

"(not to mention the infamous Northwest rostering system that consumed them on their laptops)."


Actually NWA has one of the best computer rostering systems of all the airlines. It was the antiquated Delta system that they were trying to learn along with a new, complicated Delta medical plan selection that had a time constraint.

[taildrag]

That's right, a big part of the problem is commuting. But you omit the salient factor; why pilots commute. Junior regional pilots, making peanuts, are often assigned to hubs like NYC, BOS, and other large cities where costs of living far exceed what is possible on their paychecks. So, they commute. So do pilots who are upgrading to a higher paying seat or airplane, for liveable schedules,due to bumpbacks or furloughs, or to keep their families settled in community life and schools among friends, ,etc. etc.

If the airline and the FAA prevails, maybe the airlines should be forced to build company accommodation in, say, NYC, perhaps renting parts of a building at market rates to others, or to pay huge cost of living differentials for pilots forced to live in such places.

Fat chance of that!

To avoid hotel bills for overnighting crews, many regionals base pilots at outstations where the planes overnight. This often puts strains on pilots and families when the airline pulls out of a small town where the pilot has settled, or puts a different aircraft on the route.

The recent publicity about the "RV parking lot" at LAX reserved for a large contingent of pilots, who live in caravans on the hot,treeless macadam, revealed many are senior captains, who choose that Spartan lifestyle above moving to Los Angeles from their homes far way, or paying usurious big city hotel costs to come in the day before their trips.

Crash pads aren't the answer. Ask those who've been there, done that.

I worked for a crappy little commuter airline in upstate Utica, New York, a depressing "rust belt" city, in dire economic straits. The cheapskate owner protested he didn't want allow jumpseat agreements for his crews. "Why
should I let my pilots ride free? Screw 'em. Let 'em live in Utica."

The chief pilot set him straight: "If you don't let them commute, you won't have any pilots." The skinflint relented. A good majority of his crews were commuters.

Your satirical post is not a joke. Thousands of pilots are trying to resolve this problem, with little success.:ugh:

[muduckace]

Labour action? Grow a pair or get out of the business. Aviation is not a family oriented business and will not be in the future unless the employees decide to change it.

Commuter pilots having fly out of large uban cities, sing me a song. Take it, leave it or change it.

One poster whined about the RV city in L.A. Hell I had to pay my rent to park my R.V. When times were tough and I decided to bring my family along with me as opposed to leaving them at home with a paychech as a substitute for a husband...

[stilton]

What is a 'paychech' Mudace ?



and what position are you advocating ? your post makes no sense.

[alouette3]

take a long snooze in our rest area all afternoon showing up well rested for departure.

Stilton,
Help me out here. Is this "rest area" the same as the crew lounge which was brought up in the Colgan accident? According to reports, Colgan has a policy forbidding crews from resting in the crew lounge. So is this something different your airline is doing?
Alt3.

[411A]

most individuals would rather live in/near their base...many started out that way, until their airlines closed that crew base.

And this is somehow unique to airlines?
Do you really believe that this is not a fact of life in other industries?
Are you really that poorly informed?

Like it or not, the airline industry is a transient one...like it or say goodbye..
Oh...cry me a river...the company doesn't care... boo hoo:{
What else is new?:}

[stilton]

Happy to help you out alouette3.


We have a dedicated crew rest area that is kept dark and quiet. It can be used by any crewmember 24 hours a day.



I am not sure why you would mention inadequate rest facilities at a commuter Airline and assume it is the same industrywide.

[stilton]

Do any other members have 7051 posts :eek:

[cribble]

Thread creep...
some have been good, some carp. Good gen on L1011 ops, a fair amount contentious. we are left in no doubt , though. Can't complain about that.

[ChrisVJ]

I had a friend flying for an Oriental airline out of Vancouver to Taiwan, he was commuting from Oslo.

[411A]

I had a friend flying for an Oriental airline out of Vancouver to Taiwan, he was commuting from Oslo.

That would be a different kettle of fish than the sort of commute that regional airline pilots do...a long term commute, whereby you stay flying for three-four weeks, then return to you domocile for days off.
Nothing wrong with this, IMO...its the short commutes weekly that are tiring, and pilots should be paid a reasonable cost of living base allowance to enable them to rest properly....at base.
Of course, regional airlines will say this is far too expensive, so tired pilots will continue to fly tiring schedules, and more accidents/incidents are likely to occur.

[sharpshooter41]

Sorry for the topic creep

"some have been good, some...." . Ha Ha !!!! You must be joking

Is there any policy to take a well earned rest after 7,000 posts

[411A]

Is there any policy to take a well earned rest after 7,000 posts
Negative.
If you somehow object to my posts, send an email to management.
Be advised, this has been tried before, with limited success.
411A tells it like it is not how you might want it to be.

And, as far as traveling where the base of ops is...411A no doubt holds the record...10,000 miles.
Quite a long time ago, to Singapore, for a B707 Command/Training (TRE/IRE) position.
Go where the big bucks are...and take your kids...they are likely to receive a better education in that foreign location, anyway.
Afraid of leaving friends behind?
Make new ones at the new base.

And, in some cases, collect your salary tax free.

[Spooky 2]

I seriously doubt that 411A has EVER worked for a major US airline, thus he has a hard time getting a grip on the convulsions this industry has sustained from a purely line pilots point of view. Base closing or equipment scheduling is more like musical chairs than airline operations. The convulsing realestate markets along with cost of living in some of these bases inhibits if not outright prevents "following the time" in many cases.
Working someone like Saudia solves the problems before they start. You simply dont commute on a trip basis. Maybe monthly, but not every trip.

He is right though about commuting and the pilots are their own worst enemies in this areana. Pretty hard to have sympathy for someone who commutes from the west coast to say JFK and then flies an all nighter to Europe. Not that I have ever done that.:}

[411A]

I seriously doubt that 411A has EVER worked for a major US airline...
True enough, I avoided that problem and advanced to heavy jet aircraft directly to the LHS, overseas,
All, tax free.
No problemo.

[Spooky 2]

411A...Did you ever yank gear for anyone and if not :}, please tell us how you became worhy of a DEC slot at SIA?

[411A]

411A...Did you ever yank gear for anyone and if not , please tell us how you became worhy of a DEC slot at SIA?

Yank the gear...pistons/turbopropeller types, yes, as a First Officer.
SQ?
Joined as a DEC with 2000 hours Command in the airplane, in my early thirties.
All prior training at PanAmerican.
It really is quite simple...you are either prepared to actually go where the job is, or you ain't.
My bags are always packed.

Next?:}

PS.
Airline flying can (and many times, is) a very satisfying job, however...you have to make the choices that are necessary, to obtain a senior position.
IE: make your own luck...not depend on some company to make it for you.

[AirRabbit]

Well aside from all the potshots at 411A I think it is criminal that all the commuters out there are forced, probably some at gun point, to work for the dreary jerks who establish a base of operations where the pilots don’t want to live. Maybe sometime in the near future all those commuters will unite, find those dirty SOBs, and go lynch em! That will assuredly fatten the paychecks of each of those poor guys/gals who had to commute to their jobs.
:confused:
Oh, wait. If the owners are pushing up the grass, it might be that their inflow of cash might stop and therefore stop the operation … hmm… oh, well. These guys were looking for a job when they found the rotten one … right? They probably can go find one of those hundreds of $1000/hr captain jobs in Orlando or Houston or … hmm … where were those jobs again?
:bored:
Well, maybe we could pass a law … “all airline pilot starting salaries would be $80,000 per year – guaranteed to go up 10% a year for the first 5 years and then 25% a year for the next 10 and have the airline provide housing (of a “suitable quality”) for each person that desires homes at the airline’s base of operations. That way everyone who wanted to be a pilot would have a great career to look forward to. All we have to do is pass another law that says minimum airline tickets would be $10 a mile plus fuel surcharges.
:ok:
Yeah … that otta do it.
:hmm:

[Spooky 2]

What is this all prior training at Pan Am. You make it sound like Pan Am was running some sort of an ab initio program back in the 60's. NOT.

Amazing that SIA would hire anyone with 2000 hours as a DEC on the 707? Maybe that was 2000 in type? And where might have that come from?

[dieselsix]

There is only one good solution; HOME-BASE
If wannabe airline owners like 411A can't afford it, they shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

[411A]

What is this all prior training at Pan Am. You make it sound like Pan Am was running some sort of an ab initio program back in the 60's. NOT.
Amazing that SIA would hire anyone with 2000 hours as a DEC on the 707? Maybe that was 2000 in type? And where might have that come from?

Amazing the spooky is unfamiliar with all the contract training PanAmerican did for other carriers, and stranger still that he is unfamiliar with foreign airline ops...as though airline flying stops at the border...:}
If spooky wants further details, a PM will suffice...and will provide details of foreign airline ops, and the pilots that have been there, done that.
Spooky excluded, no doubt.:bored:

I think it is criminal that all the commuters out there are forced, probably some at gun point, to work for the dreary jerks who establish a base of operations where the pilots don’t want to live.
Airlines are not the least bit concerned about 'where you want to live'.
You either accept the job as is...or walk.
Take your pick.
Those airlines really don't care...at all.
Plenty of applications at the HR department.:rolleyes:

[alouette3]

Thanks for the clarification ,Stilton.No, I did not make the assumption that it was the norm industry wide. Just curious to know which airlines do the right thing and which just say they do the right thing,as far as providing good rest facilities to commuting crew.

Cheers!
Alt3.

[Semaphore Sam]

I've had my disagreements with 411A over the years, but he is SPOT ON with the idea that you look at the conditions on offer, and, accept or reject; don't take a position, and then whine about conditions. There are alternatives; I did my military time in the '60's-70's in the Air Force, and looked for the non-existing 'DREAM JOB' with Eastern, Pan-Am, Braniff, etc., then, when nothing good was on offer, went overseas, because that was WHERE THE WORK WAS, and, WHERE THE DECENT PAY WAS, and I had a family to support. If you whine that you don't wanna leave the good ole USA, just take what is on offer, and SHUT UP. There are great opportunities overseas...I've seen them, in the Middle East, India, Far East, etc. even in this impacted economic morass. The USA's future is grim, because of the last few Administrations' monetary policies...the dollar is tanking, and will go much lower. If you insist on the US, don't friggin gripe about conditions...you have rejected much better opportunities overseas; it was your choice. Sam

[stilton]

You are welcome, Alouette3. Great user name by the way.



Spooky brings up some good points 411a. Why not answer the question ?
you trained at Pan Am and say you had 2000 hours when you were hired by SQ as a DEC on the 707.


It would be very hard to believe they would hire you with 2000 hours total time. Curious to know where you got 2000 hours in the 707 ?



You've never been shy before, why keep it a secret ? !

[411A]

It would be very hard to believe they would hire you with 2000 hours total time.


Suggest you read my previous post again, stilton.
I will make make it easy for your good self...
Joined as a DEC with 2000 hours Command in the airplane
That would be the B707 airplane.
Where?
Offer me a position and I might send my CV...provided of course you have the deep pockets to actually pay....:rolleyes::}

[stilton]

Yes 411a, I offer you the 'suspected not confirmed' position of 'most prolific contributor to PPrune' :}


Ideas for prizes might be a Fifth Stripe, a megaphone or a larger mirror, take your pick.


Still no details forthcoming on where you attained the 2000 hours 707 command time for your Direct Entry Command though..

[411A]

Still no details....

I'll give you a little hint, stilton, think of the dark continent in the early-mid nineteen seventies, and all the 707's flying around, especially the ones between Angola and say...Lisbon.
Also, think of the loads of cargo that departed Accra.

Do a little research and you might even find a few photos of the 707's that I flew...mostly old straight pipe models ex-PanAmerican and TWA.
Even a couple of Conway powered ones, from time to time.
And yes, I stepped straight into the LHS.
It's a big world out there, stilton...it doesn't just end at the US border.

[stilton]

Interesting,


But why just hints, it sounds like a fascinating time, is there a reason to shroud your history with such mystery ?

[AirRabbit]

Airlines are not the least bit concerned about 'where you want to live'. You either accept the job as is...or walk. Take your pick. Those airlines really don't care...at all. Plenty of applications at the HR department.
That was sorta my point. I can't help but get tired reading the complaints about how good it used to be and how bad it is now. Perhaps my attempts at "irony" weren't recognized as such ...

Each job comes with a salary and working conditions - those should be made clear to any applicant ... and if these conditions aren't explained, it's the applicant's responsibility to find out BEFORE they sign on. And, once working, there isn't a law that forbids someone from resigning from a bad job.

I would wonder about the mental facilities of someone who goes to work every day, day after day, complaining about the work, the hours, the pay, the ... whatever. If it's so bad ... for cryin' out loud ... go find something else to do! Sheesh.

[Piripi]

They need to put some limits on commuting. Maybe no more than a 2-3hour commute. That would prevent people going coast to coast and then going on duty.

I heard recently of a Republic FO commuting from Honolulu to New York and going to work after. Fatige, maybe it doesnt apply to them since they fly 70 pax or 99 for the price of 50.:ugh:

[AirRabbit]

They need to put some limits on commuting. Maybe no more than a 2-3hour commute. That would prevent people going coast to coast and then going on duty.
I heard recently of a Republic FO commuting from Honolulu to New York and going to work after. Fatige, maybe it doesnt apply to them since they fly 70 pax or 99 for the price of 50.
:=
The problem is that in cities like New York, Washington DC, San Francisco, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angles, etc., living more than 5 miles from the airport could easily result in 2-3 hour commutes in rush hour traffic. So if you move that up to 4-5 hour commutes ... you're right back to living in Phoenix and commuting to New York - unless the restriction is placed on the commuting means; like roller skates, 10-speed bicycle, etc. However, then you'd get into the physical liabilities and exhaustion just prior to flight. Maybe we could require that flight crews spend the 10 hours immediately prior to flight INSIDE the terminal from which they will depart? No, wait. That would likely raise issues about noise and other such rest/sleep deprivational issues. Or ... maybe we could just shut up and let professionals do what they think best - and if the professional shows up drunk, half-asleep, or on drugs ... we simply point out the severance pay window.

[be1900]

:= do you own an airline?:mad:

[AirRabbit]

do you own an airline?
:rolleyes:
No. I don't. And, from that question I would gather that you don't think very highly of my suggestion to let the guys flying the machines make up their own minds about what constitutes rest? I was trying to point out the futility of putting together a regulation that will adequately address the issue of rest. Requiring crewmembers to reside in the city from which they will depart on a flight or series of flights does nothing to ensure the crewmembers are adequately rested. Similarly, limiting the time to commute to the airport from which a crewmember will depart on a flight or series of flights does nothing to ensure that crewmember is adequately rested. The same thing holds for drinking and flying - most regulations say 12 hours between bottle and throttle ... some are as thin as 8 hours. Those regulations don't seem to prevent the problem of crewmembers showing up when "under the influence." Detecting when someone is inebriated is a lot easier than detecting when someone is fatigued or ill-rested - and I would submit that the recent instances when a crewmember was suspicioned as being inebriated on their way to the airplane are not the only times when a crewmember has shown up in that state. What test could be envisioned to identify "lack of rest?" Therefore, my suggestion ... due to the inherent futility, I suggest we back away from the fervent intent to find a regulation that will work, and let the ones who want to "press-to-test" the system, show up drunk or flat out exhausted, fire the jerk, and let the existing rules and regulations, as interpreted by the legal system, work their collective wonders.

[wilyflier]

What happened to Air rabbits post at 7.47 this morning?
Shown on the index, nothing today on the actual thread ?
It may have been Schillings post , but missing anyway
Moderater delete this , its only in passing ,there seem to be a lot of odd computer crashes on pPruNe