Civie Salaries

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Guys & Gals -

Take a look at the thread at the bottom of the main page called Terms of Endearments - Its all about commercial salaries.

For all of you thinking of making the career jump to civi street - take a look at this page first and be prepared for some real eye openers.

Basically the salaries are shocking, even compared to our measely military ones (even without our benefits!)

Good luck :eek:

[gijoe]

Are you a URO ?

...Unit Retention Officer... :confused:

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Fortunately not - but for the greater good of morale and dispelling that golden myth that the grass is greener...et al..

[You want it when?]

Know you all love to fly (or why be here) and excuse a civilian - but the Mil Training regime makes an excellent feeder into IT careers. Good presentation skills and problem solving ability + discipline makes for great project managers and senior technical types. I'd say take all your training and convert to PPL(a) or (h) and fly for fun. Use the exit period to gain business / commercial skills and you're a cinch for the £40K + benefits entry roles.

Just my two pence worth but it is based on knowledge - YWIW Senior was a commissioned navigator (Vulcans 101 / Shackeltons 8 + others - well I was very short) who was RIF'd in the mid 70's, and has done pretty well since, and the sort of candidates skills I look for when hiring I'm Project Managers (but I may be biased)

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Dear YOU WANT IT WHEN

I don't suppose you feel like expanding on your statement above, rather than just giving us a lick of the lolly and then taking it away.

Large / small company - what benefits - location - supernumary packages - security - pension etc....

Being ex-mil yourself you know that a HUGELY attractive package will have to be on offer to attract an aviator away from.
a. His airplane
b. His closeted and protected military environment.

Comment please....? :D

[You want it when?]

Right JP. I guess I asked for that. However all please accept that these are my thoughts only (always state the get out at the start)...

The commercial market is exceedingly wide (and varied) so it is not easy to match package to package as companies will always vary. My initial comment was not made to try and tempt pilots away from their craft but to remind them that flying can be for fun only and that good paying jobs exist outside of the airlines and often at better rates.

I should point out that I'm not an ex Mil type (here by grace of an open forum), YWIW senior is, but I've interviewed a lot in the past and got drunk with my mates who are in uniform. In the commercial world there is a change of mindset required - the market is very results orientated, and the training investment is generally lower. i.e. if someone drops a bo**ock then out/off they go. Training is as needed only and refresher courses are seldom offered.

IT is not just a technical or nerds role. In brief it is the ability to convert a business concept into a technical solution and to apply it back to the business in such a manner that a perceived reduction in operating costs can be achieved. Or it is the ability to keep IT running so that perceived savings are continued.

This is a skill that companies pay good money for!!!!

IT Technical roles start at about £18K and go up to the late £30s. Entrants would need to be literate and able to work through problems - it also helps if you have some idea about computers / keyboard use! Programming roles start in the low £20s and just go up for the right language. Flavour of the month appears to be either JAVA / web based ones or Visual Basic, but old third generation ones such as Cobol still command good money.

However (and here is where you can score) Project Management roles tend to start around £30K for junior types and mid £40s and up for experienced ones. Specialist skills like SAP command more - so a project manager who understands financial systems might earn £55 to £65K. Following on from Project Manager would be Programme Manager / Head of IT type roles - in these cases often salaries can be around the £60K mark as starting figures.

Different companies have different pension plans, some have none, some you contribute to and some you don't. A common offering these days is 10% of your basic salary as benefits and you decide how to draw that (gym membership, pension, hospital plan, CASH!). Almost all management roles either have a car or a car allowance (normally between £5K and £9K per annum).

It has been my experience that the military turns out pretty good logical thinkers, the ability to work under pressure and think out of the box. But also people who can go "ramp up a gear" when needed to - and understand that the working day doesn't necessarily finish at 17:30. I'm not a recruitment consultant or a careers advisor but given the choice I hire ex Mil every time - if I could, I've a pal in the Army who is great with computers and comms gear , he's a medic, trained HGV driver etc.. on about £22K per annum for a seven day week - and people get to shoot at him. He really wants out but is worried about adapting - if he'd take the plunge he could be on a cushy £25k, five day a week with no bull.

I hope this gives you some flavours, however it is almost impossible to answer your question, locations vary, roles vary, pay varies. However in last weeks Computer Weekly (a weekly trade rag if you hadn't guessed ) there was 10 sides of job adverts, probably over a 800 positions vacant, and next week there will be another 800. If you've done your 12 years, or 20 then IT can be a real option.

If anyone is intrested (please don't swamp me) then I can try and help re-structure a CV to channel it more towards civilian minds. I've done this for a couple of pals historically and they transferred into IT and both have good roles.

This is my longest post - so forgive any spelling errors please :D

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Dear You want it When

very many thanks for that comprehensive and personal view into the realms of the REAL World.

An extremely tempting alternative for some I am sure - especially those who have some G / J6 background (means nothing to you but to those who it does look in!).

To give you an idea of the packages you will need to offer to be comparable to a Mil aviator; this is in broad terms what he/she gets now:

SNCO / Offr (OF3 & below) Basic Salary in service @ 35K
Flying Pay, about & up to 10K
free medical & dental care
excellent (one of the best) pension schemes
Boarding School Allowance of about 3k per child per term.
Cheap & sometimes very good accomodation.
free uniform
Travel to / from work expences

A nice and tidy little package when you add it all up. So for those of you in service and considering leaving - do not just look at the basic salary - look at the total package and compare.

OH - It is extremely rare, that any of us get shot at.

Last time that happened to an aircraft - anyone like to comment...?
:eek:

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

One for GIJOE

Bet you looked though......! :D

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[You want it when?]

JP - just trying to be helpful. Which is the REAL world you refer to :confused: we're all in this together surely?

It would appear to be an excellent package (circa £60k ish) that is being offered in services that any commercial environment would be hard put to match. I'm in no way trying to tempt people over but either you retire and put your feet up or you have to do something else for the next twenty / thirty years. Not everyone can get a flying role - so its worth hearing about what skills are transferable.

£60K per annum roles are rare unless you have some high value skill to sell - so I guess it's back to bucking for the LHS of a British Airways jet. :D

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Dear YWIW

No offence meant and probably not directly aimed at you. Indirectly I suspect I am aiming my messages at those who may have itchy feet - and to get them to look at totality rather than what exists at the bottom of their pay statements - You will be amazed what is taken out at source..!

I hope you don't mind too much at being a tool for my explanation of what we are in reciept of.

And that package goes up by more than inflation each year...Just have to watch out that we don't get too sidelined with the benefits under current government.

ITS ALWAYS A THREAT.

best wishes and thanks...JP :)

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[You want it when?]

Dear JP - don't mind being your tool (surely a joke in here somewhere :)), no problem to burn up my lunch time answering posts etc.. bit worried about the "probably not aimed" statement. Either it was or it wasn't. Enjoy life. :D

Edited: After 7 of 9s post....

One of the most common statements you hear when someone leaves a role is "Money". However when you start to dig (exit interviews) you normally find that there are other issues - usually pertaining to a personality clash, or a feeling of lack of direction or just being hacked off. Money is just the easy one to hang a hat on to.

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

[Seven of Nine]

Jemima,
Agree with a lot of what you say - the Military package, as a whole, is pretty good. However, what you must also factor into the equation is the pension and gratuity available at the 38/16 point - not an insignificant amount for a Sqn Ldr. Add those to your civvy salary and things look a lot better. However, all my mates who have left for the airlines agree that money was not the main factor in their decision to leave the Service. Family stability, time away from home, p*ss poor management, second rate equipment etc are among the reasons that they left. These are the same factors that will force me out - not dissatisfaction with my salary.

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Absolutely concur.

And the fact that with so many people leaving, the pyramid becomes shallower, and thus promotion up to the top becomes easier..

In a real world...everyone of us must make our own decision based upon our own circumstances.

Regards.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I think that using a military aviators' forum for trying to lure military aviators out of their service is a cheap shot.

One of my best mates PVR'd into a deepening recession and the only job he could find was at the tatty end of the charter airline business. Operating standards were scandalous. The CAA was so short of cash that they employed one of the senior captains as their agent. There was competition between the captains as to who could uplift the least fuel to make destinations like Teneriffe, where he reckoned that every arrival from his company was legally in a fuel emergency; but none was declared. The company went bust evnetually and was bought out by BA. Even his pension fund was dodgy at one stage.
He died a couple of years ago (of cancer) still vituperating about civil aviation.

[You want it when?]

Hey FV, Was that shot aimed at me? If so read the f**king thread - I was trying to help JP in an honest question - she is the one that twisted it.

What the heck, bo**ocks to you and your mates (all close ranks - I figure civis arn't welcome here anyway) if that is your attitude. I will stay out of this forum for the future.

No big loss until one of you is on the other side of a recruiting desk <G> Very unlikely. :eek:

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

2nd Aug: Following Beagles comments on page 2
OK - here in lies the danger of replying in anger (having had a bad day - no excuse). FV sorry for your loss, but I most certainly was not trying to tempt people away - far from it I was trying to highlight an alternative route having made the decision. If there is anoter RIF then IT is an option to run in parallel with General Avation - sure you're not going at 500kts + anymore (lucky to hit a 100Kts in a C150) but you're still flying.

And as I said to JP in a private message - of course I will still hold Mil experience / training as a major plus in any recruitment cycle. Nuff said? :)

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: You want it when? ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

OH DEAR

it seems as if we have all lost the plot - what started with a genuine observation and some light hearted chat with a well meaning visitor has been twisted. No intention was meant in any way to anyone..

For those of you who have bitter pills to chew about poaching etc.. we are all big boys and gals and make the decision to leave having done as much research as possible on what the future may hold.

I suggest that this forum may be just one of those research tools. It is certainly not a bitching area for those of you who have had mates who made the wrong decision at the wrong time.

Enough preaching...lets all be adults and if you are to partake in this thread, do it like a responsible adult, with some constructive comment please.

Again many well meant thanks to all of you have given me your opinion and in some cases help. :p

[Jemima Puddleduck]

for Flatus Veteranus


Actually what has dissapointed me most is you Michael.

The fact that you are not even military but seem to be destructive, and have little to add really grinds of hypocrisy when reading your last and only input.

So however many posts you make..do them somewhere else.

Bye Bye OLD MAN.
:mad:

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[BEagle]

Oh the intemperance of youth. Learn to distinguish between opinion and personal abuse please! I was finding this thread quite interesting until it deteriorated into yoof-cuwcha abuse. Incidentally, the pension at 55 is far from good as it is based on only 75% of an aircrew officers' annual salary whereas it's based on 100% for some blotter-sucking rubber desk johnny!

That someone's best friend succumbed to terminal cancer might at least evoke some sympathy rather than just blatant rudeness.

Now off to bed with you!! Smacked bottom and no hot milk!!

...oh well - back to my copy of 'The Oldie'!

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[DESPERADO]

Er, beg to differ, but having read again what was a light hearted discussion with some interesting comment from YWIW and Jemima, it was FV who butted in and became rude. I don't believe that what YWIW was a 'cheap shot', quite the opposite. What he said was of value and interesting. As for sympathy, well guess what, I imagine all of us have lost friends and relatives to cancer, not sure of the relevance to the discussion though (and I am genuinely sympathetic, don't get me wrong).
To YWIW, don't let the over agressive contributors force you out, especially as these are the same people who thought that it was appropriate to abuse Mach t Knife on a different thread for asking if we can have more aircrew input.
As a general comment I wonder why so many of the threads descend into personal abuse and vitriol. Is it because those of you that think it is ok to abuse someone for just stating their opinion are hiding behind the veil of anonimity?

The fountain of Saint Elias, sulphurous and saponaceous, was renowned for its calming influence on all who suffered from abuse of lechery or alcohol, or from ingrowing toe-nails. - Norman Douglas

Another vaguely irrelevant quote next week.

[Cooperman]

Got to admit I saw the thread a little differently.

Very interesting info and it is true that many mil guys see the grass greener on the other side.

If mil aviators are that easy to 'lure' then we are in a more sorry state than we all realised.

It's also true to say that most aviators opt for the obvious - airlines. There 'may' be lots of other equally interesting/challenging careers out there for the ones who want to leave other than in aviation.

Moosa Aswayita! :cool:

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Anyhow - now hopefully that that small interlude is over, does anyone else from a non flying related employment (Perhaps someone who works in airport management) have any value to add to the thread.

I find it facinating to hear views from outside of the Military on perceptions of the "Typical": either officer or SNCO/WO.

Please continue - I await in hope...!

[Brunel]

......or indeed do any ex-mil flying types now working in any non-flying civvie job wish to pass on their experience. Is the grass greener out there?!! :confused:

[gijoe]

Interesting thread JP and YWIW.

JP - my first comment was tongue-in-cheek but, hey, you're doing a very good job in making people think before they sign on the dotted line and head off for the supposedly greener grass over there.

YWIW - Got any jobs in 2008 ?? Hopefully I'll have a set of crowns, or maybe more, on my shoulder by then (civvyspeak read Major)an indexed-linked pension, a gratuity of a few quid...and hopefully an MSc in Design of Information Systems to top up the BEng Aero Eng. Gijoe is also available for part-time work in the evenings and could start today :cool:

But seriously, JP you hit the nail on the head. I have been a URO and at some units I been to it almost appears to be fashionable to be leaving. It this attitude wise as the world teeters on the edge of a recession ?
Your list of benefits is very comprehensive but didn't list the adv trg side of life. My own case this year: skiing with the French Army in Feb (Free), skiing with the Brits in Austria Mar(£100), sailing for a week in April(£10), planned windsurfing instructors course in August (£25), planned skiing instructors course in December (free)...and yes I do do my day job.

This is aside from the PPL flying which the boys in green subsidise quite well through the SLC scheme and pay me petrol dosh to get there. There's loads there if you only get off of your backside and , firstly, find it and then do it !!

YWIW - project management was involved all of the things above but probably not in the form you're used to.

Just reread this and it really isn't meant to swing the lantern but simply add something else to the debate. ;)

[You want it when?]

gijoe - speak to you nearer 2008!

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I am ex Mil, Army, and took the jump about 5 years ago after 13 years. Best thing “I” ever did. One of the earlier posts that say it is not the money is true. I was prepared to come out and earn less money just to get away.

Second rate everything, senior management who deny there are any real problems, seems to be the way of the services these days. Trying to manage good people with no support and resources is what forced me to go. I just did not see the point of working long days to achieve F**k all. :(

I now work as a telecomms consultant, and have done so for 3 years. The money is very good and the work interesting and varied. People say it has no security but I disagree. If you are good at what you do then you will always find work. So there is a very nice life after the military and civvies don’t have such a blinkered view on life as some in the mil do. I miss the Army like a hole in the head :)

At the end of the day it is an individual choice on whether to stay or go. I guess some people fear climbing out of the cosy mil environment, I did. It is not that bad out here. If you can be successful against the best the mil has to offer and succeed then it is going to be much easier out here where there are a lot less capable people around.

The grass may not always be greener but it sure tastes better :)

[gijoe]

Vortex - like everyone else you probably enjoyed the army up until it p****d you off one too many times and then signed on the dotted line. Excuse me if I'm wrong.

But all of the time there are positive sides to staying in I'm going to do it...and when the time comes I'll be off like you.

I'm glad to see you have made a success of the transition to civ div. Were you anything to do with telecoms whilst in ?

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]

[Flatus Veteranus]

OK,OK folks, cool down! I admit that my post was written after "dining well". Apologies to the wounded.

I only meant to make the point that those who think that they will wave bye-bye to pi$$-poor management when they leave the service are deluding themselves. The services have forgotten more about management than most civvy organisations ever learnt. Civil Service, Banks, Lawyers, Financial advisers, travel agents - one's contacts with them are a farrago of cock-ups - leastways this side of the pond.

It wasn't just my dead mate's airline. I am sure you saw the TV series on Sleazyjet. The episode that sticks in my mind was the one where the flight from Stanstead to Nice was told that there was a problem on the runway at Nice and asked by ATC whether it cold accept a short hold (20/30 mins?). The captain said not and elected to divert to Lyons. No reason given - left to the imagination. At Lyons he discovered that the fuel companies would not honour his credit card, and had to get a Director to phone the fuel company. The flight was 3 hours late into Nice.

[Danny Boy]

OH - It is extremely rare, that any of us get shot at.

Last time that happened to an aircraft - anyone like to comment...?


[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]



Just a quick point but I belive it happens very frequently over both Northern and Sourthern Iraq, you might want to check it out if you are interested???

Danny Boy :)

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Danny Boy ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Danny Boy - excuse my naivete, and thanks for enlightening us.

It seems now that we have a very interesting thread going.

One type of employment that seems very "SPIN" at the moment is Resource Management. Has anyone any experience in this highly competitive line of work and one for which most military officers could do extremely well in their sleep. (My opinion).

Look forward to some further interesting experiences - good and bad.

Best wishes - JP. :rolleyes:

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[BEagle]

Yes - for an excellent resource management simulator, get yourself half a dozen plates and half a dozen bamboo canes. Put plates on bamboo canes and spin. Then keep plates spinning whilst:
1. Someone rings you on your mobile.
2. You are ordered to reduce the number of occasions when you are allowed to wiggle the canes in order to save money.
3. You have to complete a risk analysis for hazards caused by falling plates.
4. You are ordered to keep spinning the plates all night, but you won't be allowed the use of any lighting because that's too costly.

Oh for the days when we just went whoosh and zoom in jet aeroplanes that the public adored............

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Beagle, that is very good :)

gijoe, Yes that is about right. Most of it was fun and I would do it again I think. It’s true that one day, as happens to everyone, they do pi$$ you off once too often and so you move on.

I am very happy now but do have fond memories of my time in.

Really all I was trying to say is there is nothing to be scared about when the time comes to leave. If you are any good you will succeed whatever you do.

And yes I was in the Royal Signals.

[EESDL]

Opened this thread in the hope of finding some good info about 'Civvie' rates of pay!!

Freelance Rotary Single Engine Day VFR only;
£45/hr Charter
£55/hr Pleasure Flying
£150-£200/day rate (ie fly someone to the races, hang around all day, read everything available, sleep in the back, leer at the Mercedes girls.., then fly them back home)

There we go, was not so difficult was it?

[cheese]

Guys

Despite some inevitable "rabbit warrens", an interesting thread. In too have looked at the terms of endearment forum and was surprised at low levels of salary.
For what it's worth...I left recently to become a Management Consultant within the IT sector (sure I had done an MBA in my spare time, but thats part of preparation).
The package(even when you allow for the 2 kids at boarding school)was extremely competative; the work can be (but is not always)interesting. Thing that we would consider "trivia" can be important to some people.
My advice would be not to undersell yourself and start preparing early.
To put this threads "poaching " argument into perspective. Yes I miss the flying, yes I miss happy-hour but there is a bigger picture.
Finally, the bottem line is, you WILL know when its time to leave, you just will (although you might not act on it)

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Talking to a freind of mine he says the daily rate is normally closer to £300 than two. :) Well thats a bit of good news then.

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Cheese - many thanks. I'd be really interested to hear how you actually went about getting a job.
What hoops you had to leap through, and did you actually end up in your current appointment by accident (as often seems the case) or did it all work out just as you planned?

regards - JP

BEagle - keep going, but mind your T6.

[only1leftmate!]

Oi Beags

I'll swap your 75% master-race salary for my 100% desk blotter salary!!!

[Sadbloke]

Beagle

Often thought you spoke my language (1950/60's RAF) - just wondered how you shifted from fast jet to trucking - medical or ability? Keep up the top work filtering the ramblings of the eternally sad.

[John Eacott]

Australia has a Federal Award system for most categories of employment. The awards can be found at http://www.wagenet.gov.au/index.html
, follow the link through "Fact Sheets" for awards and pay scales for various flying types, eg General Avaition, Offshore Helicopter, GA helicopter, Qantas, etc.

Also, http://www.wages.com.au/ has links to pay rates around the world.

[Nil nos tremefacit]

Of course, the flying option is only open to pilots and some flight engineers. As a former nav and ops officer the world offered a different set of choices when I left.

There are virtually no civvie navs in the Western world and those that there are are ground based. Airline ops salaries are low for the areas they tend to be in - living near Gatwick/Heathrow isn't cheap. I did get offered an ops management job in the midlands - 20k, no benefits, long and antisocial hours (freight goes at night).

I went into IT sales, but was selling the right product, right time, wrong price. Very hard work in a very competitive market. I also did a load of Y2K and computer auditing work as a sub-contractor. Rates are not as good as you think when everyone takes their cut and margins are squeezed. IT project managers are, however, in demand and I know several ex-RAF types who have walked into those jobs, but they did prepare, they know some IT and they have had at least one supervisory tour.

I've had my own company - interesting what you can get as a MD that you can't get otherwise. I created the company for a short-term project and folded it afterwards. I still have my own trading names for business purposes, and I still have a varied flow of opportunities and contracts. Cashflow is king when you're on your own.

That ultimately is the bottom line out here. No-one is owed a living and you can find yourself doing almost anything if you do as I do and choose to be self-employed. I currently have 5 sources of income - pension, non-executive directorship (handy little earners if you can get them), temporary work (lots around to top up the pennies), money for some public service things I do and occasional profit from sales of products as well. I'm waiting on the results of 3 contract bids, but everyone goes on holiday at this time. I offset lots of things against tax - or rather my accountant does.

Must admit, with hindsight, that being in the military is in many respects a doddle. The package is good, as previously explained, and there are perks that if you take them (3 sailing expeds and subsidised sport in my case) do not occur so often outside. Try paying for every visit to the gym, every swim in the pool, every game of squash or tennis or even a Summer Ball/Christmas Draw where the staff are paid out of your ticket. Officers' and Sergeants' Messes are v.cheap compared to a half way decent country club.

Finally, we are probably not on the edge of a recession, but are actually in one (hence the latest cut in interest rates). This is critical for anyone making a decision to leave. In telecomms there has been a reduction of 290,000 jobs worldwide so far this year. Nearly 20% of last year's award winning websites don't even exist anymore as companies are going under. Advertising budgets are down. I was talking to a businessman last night and his concern for his sales of high value luxury goods was real. This will impact on the whole flying market by the end of the year. At the moment people are taking holidays paid for and booked several months ago and they've just splurged on the high street to get their things to take with them. I would not make a move from military to civvy until I'd seen September's sales figures and the Government growth forecasts for the last quarter.

[Flatus Veteranus]

NNT
Yours is a balanced and honest piece of advice. Only one thing to add; watch out for the sharks. There are many more lurking out there than in the Service.

Another mate o'mine, brilliant, youngest serving GD Wg Cdr, got fed up and left. Joined a major electrical roods retail chain, who put him through LBS and then made him Sales Manager. He did wonders for the firm for two years - ranch in Surrey, Ferrari in the garage, boat on the Hamble - and was then head-hunted to be MD of a consumer electronics retail group. It was only once he was in the chair and looked at the books that he found that the firm was technically insolvent. He got out of it, I believe, by finding a buyer for the company; but his reputation was hopelessly compromised in the places that matter. Last heard of as a professional charter skipper in the Caribbean.

[DESPERADO]

Anyone else out there done an MBA? I, like many, intend to leave at 38 (not bitter and twisted, just believe that fj flying is still a youngish man's game, and no other type of flying interests me). Don't wanna be an airline pilot. Not highly qualified as I only went to ULOO (University of Linton on Ouse). Am told by clever people that to get into management outside, MBA is the way to go? Anybody got experience of this? Still got a few years in which to do it before I leave, how long does it take if you still have to run a fulltime military life around it? I am really interested as to how people like Cheese manage to juggle full time military job and presumably the part time MBA. I am sure that general comments on how to educationally prepare oneself prior to leaving would be of interest to many aircrew/non-aircrew, on the forum, who don't see their future in airline work. Anyone out there done an MBA without a first degree?
As an aside, I will be doing my ATPL as a fallback option, coz someone else will be paying for it and I won't have to study for all those nasty exams now.
P.S. my apologies to FV for getting @rsey with him earlier.

'Tis education forms the common mind, just as the twig is bent, the tree's inclined. - Pope

Another vaguely irrelevant quote soon.

[You want it when?]

DESPERADO - You could try the Open University in Milton Keynes. They have a two track professional (recognised) MBA, three years if you've got a degree or four if you haven't. Workload is no more than 10 hours a week as it is all distance stuff with occasional weekends away on study / residential stuff.

A lot of this distance learning is worth it to start to get the brain into student mode again (allthough not with so much beer this time round)

[cheese]

As a Nav I felt my options at 38/16 could be limited, so in an effort to TRY and make the decision mine(stay or leave) I did the part-time MBA with Durham University.

(i) About 10-15 hrs work per week.
(ii)I did about half of it whilst I was on a FJ sqn (gets you through the time in the Gulf etc), and half on ground tour (easy).
(iii) Cost about £7000 total, although you can get tax relief on this.
(iv) Mostly good fun and interesting, although it did confirm my opinion of accountancy.....boring.
(v) Helps build confidence of commerce and networking opportunities when/if leaving.

Lessons learnt:
(a) DO a project that may be relevant in the field you are aiming at.
(b) if you have the time and money, do a fulltime course rather than a part time course.
(c) Don't expect an MBA to get you a job, but it will probably get you to the table for an interview.
(d) My advice would be to look at the Warwick Business school part time course, a little more expensive but better regarded. Above all make sure the course you do is AMBA accredited.

I have no axe to grind, no poaching, merely knowledge share so if anyone wants any more, send me an e-mail.

[navbag]

I echo the above sentiments.
Leaving at 38/16 option shortly and quite pleased too...can't stand any more rumours!!
I started on the OU MBA and got as far as passing the Diploma until time and finances got the better of me. It was hard work, both in terms of the actual work and finding the time!
However, it has been absolutely invaluable in understanding the outside market place. More importantly when attending recent job interviews there was always a HR person present to ask questions on current business trends and to see if you would fit into the team! Without the knowledge from the Business Courses I would have been in trouble.
Have now landed a very nice job indeed thank you (and will continue with the MBA as soon as i can). :cool:

[Mowgli]

Something I realise changed for me when I left a couple of years back is that out here there are opportunities which you don't think about when in the mob. I now keep an open mind and pick and choose which opportunities to follow up.

My advice is to have a gameplan which has a good chance of achieving being able to pay the bills and follow it through while keeping a few other irons in the fire. I keep in touch with a few mates; mostly because they're mates but a consultant headhunter type would call it networking. It's helped get me my current job, and resulted in a mate inviting me to his office for a chat about something completely different with a very large exciting company called xxx. Fact is I quite like current job, but I'll go and have a look anyway.

If your a pilot you have a set of skills which you can reasonably confidently convert into a not too bad job/lifestyle. One that will pay the bills while you work off your bond but position yourself for something which you may find more rewarding. Or, you may be able to run both jobs concurrently. (flew with a skipper recently who is MD of a company while he and his wife run a residential home) = 3 jobs.

My advice: network, go for a job that you know you have the right skill set for, then branch out from there.

[RRAAMJET]

Mowgli made an important point there:
one of the lifestyle bonuses of airline flying can be a large ( predictable ) amount of time off; if you have other skills, you may wish to run 2 careers simultaneously. I have several acquaintances that do this ( everything from Doctors and Dentists to a bloke with a Harley dealership...)

Worth a thought....could be hidden income potential you hadn't considered.
:cool: :cool:

[Gypsy]

Guys - I'm ex RAF; left several years ago. My experience - really enjoyed the change and got a payrise. Biggest thing I missed - dining in nights but have been lucky enough to get the odd invite. Also been to some wild crew parties that would take some beating. Pleasant surprise - don't have to go to work if not flying.

My advice - if you leave (and thats a personal choice) get into the first division and by that I mean get onto a Boeing or an Airbus

(Sorry if thats bit controversal for some but I think it is in general true, both in salary terms and standards - however I acknowledge there are always exceptions to the rule)

Second advice is to join a Company where you will not be a F/O for too long. Don't know what mil pilots get nowdays but in general F/O's on Boeings or Airbus will be in the £35K area but Capts about £60K (basic salaries). So you want to try and be out of the RHS within about 3 yrs. Good companies then have some or all of the usual benefits (pension, insurances, staff travel etc) and duty pay will add a few thousand more to your take home. Line capts in my outfit gross about £75Kpa including duty pay and annual bonus and F/O's about £40K to £45K.

Is it fun? I've enjoyed it - fact is pilots are the pretty much the same type of guys whatever uniform they wear.

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Gypsy ]

[Jemima Puddleduck]

BEagle - perhaps you would like to share with us, some of your experiences as a Company Director...!

Many thanks and regards

JP

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: Jemima Puddleduck ]

[BEagle]

Since you ask, mate:

1. No matter how sound your business plan, something unexpected will come along. Such as a supplier going into liquidation.

2. Don't run a bigger fleet of aircraft than you have customers for.

3. Fuel prices invariably go up by far more than you expect.

4. Do your cost analysis very carefully. But don't forget that the income from your customers will only be realised at the end of the period and you'll need a way to remain solvent if the bills come in before the income does! Particularly if your fixed costs have to met this way.

5. Be very prudent with anything reliant upon the British weather! Remember the impact of seasonal fluctuations.

6. Be fair but firm with staff expenses.

7. Trust subordinates to look after things but limit their powers of spending company money.

8. Keep your aircraft in the very best condition - never cut corners with maintenance. People will grow tired of scruffy old rattle-traps with a host of unserviceabilities, but will be keen to fly something smart and serviceable.

9. Always pay the maintenance organisation promptly. Then they'll try to help you out if you need short notice maintenance.

10. Review your pricing structure at least twice per annum.

11. Never mix personal and company business - or money! If you're unsalaried, don't give yourself any 'company perks' or you'll be liable for tax. Pay for things exactly as your customers would.

12. Always twist on 12, never buy!!

[Beaver]

Totally agree with Gypsy. I'm ex-Army, did my time, left with a pension at 40 plus, week-end off then straight into the LHS of an Airbus. Two and a half years later, changed seats, now happily earning £62,000 plus allowances (c £6000 pa) plus my pension. Sure, I miss the banter and the Mess parties but when you get down to it it's quality of life that matters and having quality time to spend with your family not wasting time in a 12 by 12 somewhere in the middle of nowhere. I don't regret any of my time 'in the mob' but once you get to pensionable age it's a different ball game.
I reckon I have one of the best jobs in the world now, working with excellent equipment and with really good people. All this 'Civvy' vs 'Military' thing is pure tosh, most civvies in the airline world are just Mil people dressed differently!

Just one tip for anyone considering leaving -look at the package on offer, don't just assume that all similar companies will offer identical packages and jump at the first job you are offered. There are marked differences in what is on offer, particularly with regard to pensions. My company puts in 15% of my salary if I put in 5%, a similar company only offers 12% to your 5%. Add that up times £62,000 over a few years and spot the difference!

Incidentally, prior to leaving I looked into Personnel Management and was shocked by the number of hoops you had to jump through to obtain any kind of qualification (no credit given for time served) and the starting salaries were a joke!

For anyone thinking of leaving, I would say "Come on over, the grass is actually greener when you get here"!!

[nigeriley]

Interesting point of this thread is posts are either from still serving peeps, or those who have left and made a success of their new career; but if we think I'm sure we can all remember someone who has not made it, for many reasons, unwilling to relocate, family committments, lack of drive etc etc, it is worth pausing for a moment before jumping to conclusions that the grass is always greener, although it might be.

[peterl]

I agree with the majority within this topic, but add my bit from an engineers standpoint. I did my 22+ years and have a pension, during my last two years I managed to gain sufficient qualifications to get reasonable start in the civvy airline industry and yep its all worked out very well, I earn more than I ever did in the Mob, have a better quality of life, fairly fixed shift pattern and am enjoying life to the full. Regrets? none, I had a great time in the RAF and whilst there are not so many p*ss ups, that is no bad thing (my waitline has benefited from less "sauce")
Any differences, again not too many, I still wear a uniform and a tie and still put lots of hours in.
As to whether the grass is greener, well if you prepare well for the "transition" whether you are flight deck or engineering then I think the grass can be greener but choose the company with care
:D :D

[gijoe]

F700,

Wise words..but if someone left and didn't make a success of it they are hardly going to come on here and tell everyone about it!
When the usual mess debate about this topic starts I take the same standpoint as you and caveat the debate by saying most of the things on this bulletin board. As someone who has seen civvy and service life, I am still enjoying the latter but, as my earlier posts said, will be making plans now for my departure in 6 years time.

:cool:

[ 14 August 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]