Starting PPL

[Irish Guy]

Hi all first post on the forum i am about to take the first step on the long road to a cpl (starting PPL next week) have decided to do the training in Ireland due to family and work commitments and was wondering what advice you would give someone starting out and what you think the job prospects will be in eighteen months or so when hopefully i will be coming to the end of training. Thanks in advance.

[whistling turtle]

Hi there,

I'm from Ireland too and did some of my training in Ireland so I will try and give you some info regarding my experiences that may be helpful to you I hope.

Firstly I think it is impossible to predict what the job market will be like in 18 months unfortunately - who knows really?

I did my PPL in Ireland, some hour-building and CPL here too.

I think this goes without saying, Irish weather is a huge hinderance to Civilian Flight Training I am afraid....huge! And I do think the weather has actually gotten worse here in the past several years.
Suffice to say winter time is more or less a complete write-off and the rest of the year is very hit and miss so try and plan your flying around that.

Costs....In my humble opinion Irish flight schools like most other goods and services in the Republic are way over-priced unfortunately for what they are.
Expect to be flying +20 year old aircraft if you are going fixed-wing.

Instructors...most of the instructors I have encountered here are very good but you will find some hour-builders everywhere so try a few and then do your best to stick with one or two you like or find good for you. With the way things are now it is unlikely they will be leaving unexpectedly for the airlines which was a problem during better times.

I will probably get jumped on for saying this but I do think a lot of Irish people are a bit lazy(I am Irish myself btw) and a pattern I noticed from even just walking into different Irish flight schools is that many instructors do not bother to do a proper pre-flight brief and post-flight brief with their student. The excuses usually range from they don't have the time and need to get flying with their next student to they are not going to hold your hand for you. Having visited and trained with schools in several different countries with more students for the same number of instructors and planes you simply should not accept these cop-outs.

These briefs are important for keeping you the student in the loop regarding where you are in the syllabus prior to the flight and give you food for thought on the specific areas that went well and those that need to be improved on afterwards.

If many instructors abroad under the same time-constraints etc can do it then they should be able to do it here too. It's true that you need to put in 100% effort yourself to your training but at times you do need your hand to be held for the simple reason that you are learning so don't be afraid to tell your instructor you need extra help in problem areas.

Expect a lot of delays to your training from bad weather to the aircraft going tech etc. Also SOME Irish flight schools I have seen are not the most organised or structured so anticipate this and try and work around it.

It can be a long, hard, frustrating and costly slog training in Ireland at times for the above reasons and more but the main challenge is to stay positive and keep on pushing forward in spite of the obstacles. Training to CPL ME/IR level is tough enough at times anyway without taking into account the idiosyncrasies inherent to doing it in the Irish training enviroment.

Finally I would recommend doing your PPL groundschool and get those exams finished before you start the flying training as it will help you being forearmed with the theoretical knowledge. Back when I did it you usually started it after you first solo'ed for some reason but it was inefficent doing it that way I felt.

I'm sorry in advance if I come off as very pessimistic but I didn't want to sugar-coat what to expect for you. I see that you have family commitments and will continue to work as well so I can see why you would want to do it here but I would honestly look at all the other options out there too if I were you.

Best of Luck!

[Irish Guy]

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply i really dont have any choice but to train over here as the cost involved dictates that i need to keep working.

How bad does the weather have to be to stop you from flying at a school does it depend on wind speed or visibility or a combination of both? How heavy does the rain have to be to prevent flying?.

As regards costs i have been looking at this for the last number of years and have noticed some schools have lowered prices this year.

I am doing the ground school in conjunction with the flying for the PPL i thought this might be the best option.

Once again thanks for the reply i really am green to all this.

[737-500]

Well the minimum weather for VFR(Visual Flight Rules) which you will do most of your training in differs according to the airspace your flying in. For example if your in Cork- Class C you need 5Km vis and 1500 Feet cloud base. However most schools would not take you up in that, its a waste of your time and money. Wind is another story, anything above 20 knots and your pushing it. Even then when you start your instrument rating even though you can legally fly with a 200 foot cloudbase on a ILS it's not a good idea, if you have an engine failure you need to be able to glide to a field and the wind can mess up holding patterns etc. Also there is roughly half the year not flyable in Ireland.

So basically in Ireland you need lots of patience and will power. It is tough work and some days you wish you never started! Don't see how you are going to get it done in 18 months, took me that to get my PPL(partime). Took me 5 months to get MEP,CPL and MEIR(fulltime). Forgot to mention it took 6 months to do the most "fun" part the ATPL written exams.

By the way which school are you going to?

[Irish Guy]

Thanks for the reply eighteen months sounds like a long time for PPL i thought i could do it in about four months how often were you flying was it because of the weather it took you that long? How long did ground school take and did you do it before or at the same time as flight training?

[star57]

Move to Canada ....!!!!
Around Calgary the flight hours per year for VFR are possibly double of Ireland.
I just finished my PPL and took for ever, but I'm 52 and alwayes flying back to Europe for Holidays and Business (Portugal)
No Smart Remarks Please....
Costs in Calgary are $60.00 CAD per hour for Instructor and about $140.00 per hour for AC wet a 172N.

Transfereing to a JAR is a PIA so I understand, but it is what it is, cost of living here is half of Ireland, if you are single its a nice place to be if you talk funny ...women dig it! dont take it personnally, I have been here for 35 years and I talk funny...LOL

I have a 2000 172 SP C-FARC, and will do another 100 hours and will get a T182T.
Good Luck on your career, if anyone needs any info on Flight training in Canada feel free to PM me, almost as cheap as USA but you dont get treated like a terrorist in training.

Cheers

[Donalk]

Having flown in Ireland and experienced the weather, I would suggest that doing it part time in four months is just not realistic. You would need to book somewhere in the order of 9 lessons per week and be lucky to fly 3 of those.

If your work comittments mean you can only fly at weekends then 18 - 24 months would be a more realistic time frame. However be prepared for a bit of family 'down time' if weekend flying, and factor this into the overall frustration level.

If you cannot live with this timeframe then perhaps you should think about an accelerated course in more favourable climes.

[737-500]

I had to work while doing the PPL and could only do it at weekends so the weather was a big problem, one time I was 6 weeks trying to get weather good enough to get my solo X-country qualification flight done! I have friends that got theirs finished in 7 months fulltime that's a realistic time in Ireland. Also do not expect to get your PPL in the minimum 45 hours, the average would be 60 to 70 hours so factor that into your cost and also the small things add up such as paying the IAA crazy prices- 275 euro to get the MEIR added to your licence which is one slip of paper added to your licence book! I got the MEP,CPL,MEIR finished in minimum time but if you have a bad day during your MEIR test in a twin that costs 460 euro per hour it will cost the bones of 2 grand before you do the test again.

As for the PPL ground school it took me 4 months doing 2 classes of 2 hours, per week and did it at the same time as the flying.

[vore2008]

Hey Irish Guy,

I did my PPL in Ireland also. First of all Id say take things one step at a time, as in concentrate on the PPL for now. Dont worry yet about what the job market will be like in a couple of years. If youve definitely decided to do the PPL in Ireland part-time then I have a few suggestions.

Dont start it this time of year, Id wait until the spring. That way you have a good run at it for the rest of the year and youre starting at a time when hopefully the weather will be improving a bit and the evenings will be getting longer.

Its very important when training part-time to fly as often as you can, one lesson every week or two is no good, you just wont progress. I see this with some people in the school I trained at. For the past two years theyve been coming in for a lesson here, a lesson there. Theyre just wasting their money. When you start training, go at it full on and keep at it.

I would try to fly both Saturday and Sunday if possible, perhaps taking more than one lesson per day. Then as you get in nearer the summer with the longer evenings you could look to doing lessons during the week after work. I know you may have money, time or family constraints but just be aware that it is an option. You will progress through your training much better if you fly more often, say two or three times a week. Work out based on your budget how many lessons per week you can afford and go for that. And as the other guys have said youll find that a few of your lessons will be cancelled due to weather so maybe anticipate this and book more than youll actually take.

As for deciding where to train, make sure you sit down with someone from the school or club and aside from the obvious things like price find out things like whats the availability of aircraft like? Whats instructor availability like? Id strongly suggest sticking with the one instructor rather than switching between them. The reason for this is that all instructers have different habits, different approaches to teaching things. Youll find that if you fly with one guy and he tells you to do things a certain way, youll fly with another guy and he'll tell you no, do it another way. Youll just get confused. So ideally get a full-time instructor and stick with them unless theres some problem or reason to change.

Also, Ive seen schools promoting themselves purely based on the fact that they have nice shiny new planes. You can learn to fly on an older plane just as well as a newer one so I wouldnt be drawn into this kind of mentality. As long as its well maintained, the age of the plane is irrelevent.

As for the written exams if youre someone who can discipline themselves to studying themselves then by all means do that. But also be aware that many clubs and schools run ground school. These will be evening classes, usually theyre run over the winter.

Also let us know what part of the country youre in, we might be able to point you towards good schools or clubs.

Hope this helps you to not make the mistakes I did.

Vore

[eharding]

start57

Have you actually ever undertaken flight training in the US?


Star 57 - don't answer that question! - if you do, before you know it you'll be wearing a hi-viz dayglo orange rompersuit, a gimp mask and living in (a small part of ) Cuba.

[star57]

Dear American neighbor, I apreciate your defensive tone, and if I was also indoctrinated in the US I probably would have the same.

No, I have not taken any flight training in the US...having said that I have had the utmost unspleasant experience of crossing your border, hundreds of times, simply with the intention of spending my money and helping your economy.
My experience has been less than pleasant, a lot of unsubstantiated arrogange, ignorance and simply said, a total disrespect for human dignity in the way your Border Patrol agents have treated me, and other travellers that I have witnessed.

The process of of applying for a student Visa for flight training is not a very pleasant one, nor are the restrictions imposed upon that student, I could go on..., but its not my intent to over inflame this thread.

The facts are, I, amongst millions have paid an horrific price for the self made problem that the US has with terrorism, and economic policies, which, all of them were self created or exported trough acts, policies or politics.

I happened to be a citizen of two great nationalities, EU and Canadian, highlly admired, highlly respected, and one of the few great places in the world to raise a family...safelly and with medical insurance!!!

Out of respect for your flag, and the freedoom that it used to stand for, I stand up a for the "Star Sprangled Banner" at the beginning of the Hockey gamesn unlike a lot of people around me.

God Bless all !!!

[whistling turtle]

''Star 57 - don't answer that question! - if you do, before you know it you'll be wearing a hi-viz dayglo orange rompersuit, a gimp mask and living in (a small part of ) Cuba.''

LMFAO!!!!!! ;)

[Lister Noble]

I did my PPL in East Anglia,UK,probably one of the least cloudy and best weather areas in the UK.
I started August 2005 and finished May 06,booking two lessons every Friday,Saturday and Sunday,took me 53 hours ...........but I was over 60:}
I have been to West Coast Eire several times in the 60's/70's and Dublin in the 90's,but it never seemed dry for long.
To be honest I reckon you will be lucky to get it done in a year,but really do wish you the best of luck.
Lister:)

[Irish Guy]

Hi all thanks for all the replys i see everybody recommends taking at least two lessons per week how long do you think a lesson should last for? is an hour long enough or should i try for longer? how long before the time in the air ceases to be beneficial?

In response to vore2008 i am living in waterford.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Hi Irish Guy,

Welcome to aviation!

To answer your question above, somewhere in the region of an hour and a half is long enough to have a good, constructive lesson, without being so long it leaves you feeling tired, jaded and unable to remember half of what was going on. That's what the practice qualifying x-country's for!

The best person to consult on this is your instructor, as he/she will be the best judge of your flying ability and capacity to retain information!

All the best and good luck. :ok:

[Donalk]

I agree with Halfbaked - 90 mins is about the instructional limit in the air before fatigue begins to set in and your brain starts to lose it's ability to retain information. One of the most important things to remember is showing up on time for your lesson, well rested, fed and watered and free (as far as is possible) of external stressors.

Get your mind in the cockpit on the journey to the airport and debrief fully after the lesson. Doing this will accelerate the learning curve and make each lesson count.

Turning up tired, stressed, hungover, ill etc is a waste of time and money and will increase your frustration level and slow your overall progress.

Three hours booked lessons per week does not mean you will get 12 hours per month though. If you get half that you will be doing well and at that rate factor on 8 - 10 months minimum to complete the course and be ready for a skills test.

I wish you the best of luck and hope the weather gods are feeling charitable.

[4greens!]

I studied for ppl tech. exams 13 yrs ago so it may be different now,but I doubt it. Remember that a pass for each exam is only current for 6 months. Bad weather and tech a/c etc can conspire to increase the time required to reach the GFT test. So try to time your theory exams carefully as there is usually a charge for marking the exam apart from the sheer ballache of taking them repeatedly. It is not a good idea to get them over with asap, but early study for them is certainly a good thing and besides, its all very interesting.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm a Brit who has lived and worked here for over 16 years and at no time have I ever experienced any issues with entering or leaving the US
There are these days - stuff to do with fingerprinting and giving away more than enough information for identity theft and having your baggage searched ... and that's just to change planes without even entering the USA. And that's assuming that you're comfortable around men with guns who look like they're just itching to use them, which I'm not.

We've decided to go the other way round the world for our trip to the antipodes. And as the Americans obviously don't want us that's a win all round.

[strake]

SoCal App,

This is one I don't think you can win.

Too many of us on here have travelled regularly to the US over many years. In my case, mid 80's to late 90's, both business and private with fantastic flying around Florida and to the Islands. Now, just business.
My passport tells me I've visited over 140 times. Since 2001, it's become a police state. The hassle is just not worth it. If political America wants to know why, it should look in a mirror.
Maybe it will get better in the coming years. One hopes so.
Nothing personal.

[vore2008]

Irish Guy,

Have you gone out to Waterford Airport to see the clubs out there? Waterford Aero Club look interesting, they have very reasonable rates on those Tecnams. Aside from Waterford you have Kilkenny. There are two or three clubs based there. Maybe the only thing to bear in mind about Kilkenny is that because its a grass strip it may not be always usable over the winter months. But Id definitely recommend arranging a visit some weekend.

It might be an idea to take a look on the www.flyinginireland.com (http://www.flyinginireland.com) forum to get opinions on some of these clubs.

[Saab Dastard]

All,

This is a flying forum, not a political forum. You are welcome to discuss the relative merits of US vs. UK airport police etc. in Jet Blast.

Back on topic, please.

Thanks

SD

[TheGorrilla]

If you are serious about doing your CPL, why waste time and effort on PPL studies?

[star57]

At least in Canada its is...you cant become a Commercial Pilot without being a Private one first.

Train for your Pilots Licence where it best suits you! and where your finances allow.
If you would like to know about trainning in the Canadian Prairies let me know and I will give you as much info as I can.
Where I trainned at CYBW there was a Brit fellow and the reason he was here was obvious...savings over Europe and also weather.

Cheers

[Irish Guy]

Hi all thanks for the replys have taken my first two lessons this week and due to start ground school next week. First lesson got cancelled due to bad weather (a sign of things to come?) so i had to reschedule for later in the week all went ok in the air but when we landed and i tried to taxi on the runway i realised that there was a fault with the plane and it was steering with the pedals instead of the steering wheel :bored: hopefully they will fix this before the next lesson as my instructor wasnt best pleased about our shortcut across the grass:=.

[Lister Noble]

I also had this problem,there was a definite lack of connection between the wheel and direction.
I got round it by asking if I could taxi the aircraft around the runway when they were not busy.
They let me have 30 mins or so and didn't charge me,but that's Norfolk for you;);)
Lister:)

[Irish Guy]

Dont think i will be lucky enough to get the plane to practice with as runway is shared between school and commercial flights, might try and get a flight simulator game with a steering yoke and pedals to practise on, not sure how this would compare to the real thing though. Are brakes worked independently of each other? Top of left rudder pedal for left wheel? Thanks all.

[Donalk]

I'm not sure a sim equipped with pedals will give you the required feel but could be worth a try. Yes each toe pedal controls the corresponding brake. Spending some time getting used to differential braking as an aid to ground handling is a useful exercise to do early in your training.

[Irish Guy]

Hi all starting to understand what you all meant about training in Ireland had three flights booked this week and each one cancelled due to poor weather :(. On a plus note though i have started ground school this week did not realise there would be so much bookwork involved, i think airlaw and meteorology are going to prove very difficult. Still determined to complete it in four months.

[Slopey]

If you think there's lots of bookwork for the PPL, you ain't seen nothing yet if you're going CPL/ATPL!

[Azerby]

You really need to focus on what you are looking for. If it's an airline job, then your target should be a school which shares this goal and grooms you from day one. Mightn't be as homely or fun as a club, but it's quicker and will get you through in a shorter timeframe. Pricey though but, to be honest, if you're setting out to get qualifications to get an airline job, you really need a war chest (not necessarily endless) set aside to dip into rather than making a provision of a few hundred a week and flying as you earn.

Use a convenient airfield - if you're in Dublin, pick a flight training organisation at an airfield with a hard runway (I'd recommend Weston) and compare the options there.

From my experience, students who hadn't flown for two or three weeks showed deterioration and spent half a lesson getting back to where they left off on the previous lesson. Those flying 2 or 3 times a week progress better and with fewer flying hours (and cost) to reach the milestones. For many, this is not a problem as they just like flying - many of my students looked forward to their lesson just to get into the air and didn't mind the extra cost of getting a PPL in 70/80 hours over three years.

If you want to do a PPL quickly, you need a school with daily instructor availabilty and to make yourself available for windows of weather. With a financial war chest, book as many lessons as you can each week. some will not work out, but if they do, you may be making up for ones scrubbed the next week. I do not subscribe to the "write off the winter" theory, provided you make yourself available and plan to fly often. Today in the Dublin area was a no- go according to forecasts, but fine for flying up to 1pm. I suspect many students could have flown today but were stood down.

Finally, get good reference for whatever school you choose and make sure their methods suit your way of working.

A few pointers:
- budget correctly. The last thing you need is to spend ten grand and discover you can't afford the step up to the next rating, be it 40 hours for IR or five in a twin. Don't plan to fly only when you can afford it - if at the outset your finances will be stretched, wait until you are more financially confident - unless you just want to fly for fun at first and progress at a slower pace.
- plan your exams. they are only held every couple of months so plan to fail a few and re-sit. The PPL exams are easy relative to the CPL/ATPL both in content and volume - the study commitment is hugely different also but these are all on the critical path to success and a delay in passing will delay your licensing;
- be certain of your medical condition: you will need a Class 1 medical to progress to commercial. It is expensive for the initial test (i suspect close on a thousand) but this could save you tens of thousand if it reveals something which prevents you getting a licence. A lazy eye, some hitherto hidden heart condition or suchlike may restrict you to a lower licence or none at all. Many starting out do not want to think of this but I witnessed a pilot with a foreign medical who had spent a lot abroad getting qualified fail his Irish medical on eye grounds.

Good luck!.

[ACARS]

Irish Guy

Some advice for you.

1. Get your medical early. Everyone says it. I ignored it. My personal circumstances changed within a week of getting my very delayed medicial. I was ready for solo for several hours but delayed my medical because I was worried about failing. I passed and have only flow 2 hours in 2 years.

2. Spend your money on flying. Don't waste money on gadgets or expensive books. I spent £1000 on a Garmin 496 in 2007. I had the money at the time, but I regret spending that much rather than flying. I can lend you some books/video's if you promise to send them back!

3. I don't know you location, but consider Weston. I have done 29 of my 31 hours there. Great airport. I had a great instructor (PM me for details). There is a nice mix of GA and coporate traffic. I even had a "caution wake turblance" call from ATC on a couple of occassion. Weston allows good practice of RT. Can be quite daunting contacting Dublin on 129.175mhz. I managed to screw it up a couple of times. :ugh:

4. Listen to podcasts during your spare time. Best for me are uncontrolledairspace (http://www.uncontrolledairspace.com) and airspeed (http://airspeedonline.com). Both these podcasts and many others provide me inspiration and dreams.

Me - I have managed a total of 31 hours in 10 years. 29hrs were at Weston. I am going for one of the longest PPL's ever. Circumstances will soon allow me to complete my PPL next year. I have started revision for my gorund school exams. Still have not selected a school. I will either head back to Ireland for 2-3 weeks or select a school in the north east of england.

Wish you good luck.

[Cessna 172S Skyhawk]

Good to see there is alot of advise on this site, and honest advise too.

I am starting my PPL, did nearly 4 hours back in 2007, and only had my 5th hour last week, it was great that i didn't forget much at all, not that one has a lot to forget. My instructor said it was strange for someone doing their first lesson again to ask so many questions. Best way in my opinion to learn.

I am doing my training in Skytrace. Any suggestions to speed things up?

[mary meagher]

Any suggestion to speed things up? Yeah, find a nice outfit like Clacton on the east side of England, book 2 solid weeks of flying, and bring your family to the seaside at the same time! The rain comes from the Atlantic Ocean and drops most of it on the Emerald Isle, the rest is dumped on the Lake District and Scotland. At Clacton, you can learn in a taildragger, now that is real flying!

Or pay no attention to all these poor people who are still smarting from the delightful experience of going through customs - in Orlando they have to be nice to people, and Orlando Executive has a nice little airport, your family might enjoy that idea as well.

Rather than dragging out the training over 18 months of the occasional decent weekend, get a couple of weeks intensive work and you will make a lot more progress. But do not pay a lot of money up front. Sus out the operation of the flight school first. The Yanks always want you to commit to the whole package.

I've got a son living in Orlando, if you want to know more, PM and I'll ask him to check out some places.