Pilots Attitude To Engineering

[tested satis]

Having spent a long time working with flight deck, I have worked with people who can only be described as true professionals and also people who viewed engineers as a mere' oily rag'( actual comment!!)
I dont want this to turn into a slagging match but I am interested in how much pilots actually know about how engineering is set up and the various levels of qualifications involved.

Once again please only post respectful and useful comments.

[mad_jock]

3 years or 5 years working on aircraft while keeping a logbook of all work experience gained.

While doing that 14-16 exams depending what they want to work on.

After that a "type rating" on the airframes they work on.

As a pilot it does cut both ways with the attitude. Some engineers reckon you don't have a bloody clue and most faults are due to something the crew are doing. Will never believe any data fed back about none normal engine indications. Although mobile phones with video have aided the cause in that respect.

Others as you say are true professionals where everyone works towards a common goal. A matter of procedure and education is a two way thing and problems are discussed, questions asked and answered. Mutual respect is the way forward.

In fact an Engineer got me my current job as a Captain.

[SeldomFixit]

Mad Jock - 100% correct. The Engineer that slags Pilots is his own worst enemy. Likewise, Pilots.
Aviation IS a team game and if you are a stand alone Prima Donna, in any field of aviation, your peers will have subtle and not so subtle ways, of bring you back to earth. :ok:

[Blacksheep]

I once encountered a captain who would only address a ground engineer through his flight engineer. On the other hand I believe he wouldn't allow the co-pilot to speak directly to the navigator, but to go through him. I think he hadn't fathomed out how the intercom worked after they had taken away his speaking tube :rolleyes:

[Short_Circuit]

Never had a problem with flight crew. I respect their concerns, they respect my conclusions.
Without a two way dialogue, defects can not be properly diagnosed and rectified. I say this from line and base experience.

[vs69]

To echo the sentiments above, if crew take the time to give a detailed verbal debrief in addition to the log entry for a defect then in effect they are making our lives easier when it comes to rectifying the fault - I was mortified to see a colleague dismiss a crew as being drama queens in a flippant manner to their faces (Tested satis - I think you know him and share the same opinion of him as me...)
This kind of behaviour is what can give us a bad reputation but I'm happy to say is rare on both sides of the fence, In my relatively short career I have not come across a disrespectful attitude from crew,most acknowledge what we do,how we do it and I have very rarely left the flightdeck without a handshake and cheerio from Captain and F.O.
What does get to me is the sharp decline in tea offered by cabin crew nowadays.......

[oil additive]

Mutual respect for each other is the answer. Let's face it, we all (well, most of us) got into this game because of our passion for all things aeronautical, so we should be off to a good start in forming a great relationship.

Some of my fondest memories of working with pilots was my time in the air force. A young boggy pilot who was acting all up himself was usually bought down to earth fairly smartly by the senior pilots and vice versa for smart a*@ engineers. Yeh sure you do get the exceptions on both sides of the fence but that always makes for a good bitching session when all the good guys are sitting around having a beer ;)

I love talking to pilots about their workplace and I find that they usually show and interest in ours... we do very different jobs, but do them to achieve the same result, just ask Orville and Wilbur Wright :ok:

[matkat]

In over 30 years in the Industry I can say I can count on one hand (and have a few fingers left!) at the amount of Pilots(F/Es) that I consider to have a bad attitude to Engineers, probably about the same for the other way round also.

[bizdev]

I attended a pilot get together at an airline I worked for a number of years ago - I was there with by boss the General Manager of Engineering - he was asked to make a presentation about Engineering in general. He opened up his presentation with the following statement:

"You pilots are like women car drivers - you know how to drive - but you havn't a clue what goes on under the bonnet"

I winced but realised he was joking - I think!

bizdev

[mad_jock]

Just because there is mutial respect doesn't mean that banter is banned.

The comment above I certainly wouldn't have taken offense to and I doudt any of my female collegues would either, in fact if think the majority of them would agree that under car bonnets are for boys. I certainly don't see them hold back using playing with hair or fluttering of eyes when thier car batteries are dead after being a way for a week. And engineers are a sucker for it.

And an odd comment to an Avionics engineer asking where his A&P engineer minder is to drill out all the rounded screw heads is always taken in the manner it was intended. :p

PS Do they not train avionics engineers to use the correct screw driver for the job? Or is it as I presume BnQ don't sell multi head screw drivers with aircraft fittings.

[Dual ground]

Avionics drill out screws? Why would we keep a dog and then bark ourselves?

[mad_jock]

Good god NO, I wasn't implying Avionics drilled them out. Thats what the A&P minder was for.

[Keepitup]

As mentioned before, Pilots and engineers need each other, whether they like it or not. One is no good without the other.

In the years I have worked in aviation, most pilots/engineers respect each other, some banter goes on, bit most I have encountered are harmless fun.

ie Problem with the Seat to Stick Interface or There a short between the headset.

As you can guess, my back ground is engineering.

[wobble2plank]

Engineers hold my highest respect for the experience they bring, the hard work they put in and the ability to keep some old crates air worthy.

What makes me laugh the hardest is when an Engineer comes up and tells me that something is broken/worn beyond limits. Shows me the reference in the aircraft manual and explains that it will take time to repair/replace. Then, when I relay all this qualified technical information back to the flight Operations department, you know the ones, all those highly qualified technical people, they tell me 'that's all understood, but, if you're happy to take it we can one flight only it!'

Gawd Luv Em!

Best technical description of a fault I have ever had from an engineer was when a rotor blade lock pin on an S61 wouldn't engage. There was 30 seconds of frantic heavy hammering followed by the technical appraisal of the situation:

'The F**k'in f**kers f**ked.'

Had to laugh, summed it up beautifully!

Have fun, look forward to making you a hot cuppa in the galley.

[jmig29]

Well, looks to me your Flight Ops department just looked for a way out in the legislation to bring the vehicle home, which is allowed in some cases. In many cases, it is part of their work. Some have to fly them home "ferry". In other cases, some just don't want to spend the company's money sending a team to solve it. Sad, but true. The first engineer, however is just doing things by the book. Shouldn't it always be like that?

Have to agree with "keepitup".

What's wrong with an avionics guy planting "helicoils" or rivets, isn't it part of their basic training? Seen that, been there... Yet, that doesn't make him a B1...

(Hope I understood all correctly)

[HeliHo1]

Pilots are like slinky's........pretty much useless, but they'll still bring a smile to your face when pushed down a flight of stairs!

[doubleu-anker]

I respect engineers as a group and admire the work they do.

Even if I felt it necessary I would never be rude or condescending to people handling my food. The same with engineers, as they may do nasty things in retaliation! :}

One or two do require special handling and are able to test ones man management skills to the limit!

[TURIN]

What's wrong with an avionics guy planting "helicoils" or rivets, isn't it part of their basic training?

Avionics get basic training??????????????:E

[jmig29]

When you go to basic Training (before type training and before you start to work), you get around 150 hours on the subject. At least, you did some 20 years ago. It may not be the case nowadays, but most of us in the forum have some years experience, such years go before 2042/2003.

[NFF PLS RTFM]

Most people working in aviation have the basic concept that teamwork is a given. If not then even those "older" ones should have picked it up through their CRM / Human Factors training. We all have to work together.
There will always be the odd idiot on both sides of the flight deck door but by and large I think the majority respect the other view point.

[tomtom_91]

As a student pilot, I have a lot of respect for engineers - I can't say that engineering the aircraft is something that rocks my boat but the guys who maintain the a/c I train on are amazing > Its easy to see how long and hard they have worked to be as good as they are!

Pilots and engineers' should work and communicate hand in hand infact pilots should communicate with everyone they work with in a professional manor

[deeceethree]

.... in a professional manorAnd whose big house would that be then? Or did you mean 'manner'? :ok:

[mtoroshanga]

Who on earth would let a greenie go near an aircraft with a sharp object? Good God! I wouldn't let one slice bread.
As regards engineers and pilots, after 48 years in aviation I can honestly say that some of my best friends are pilots and engineers but would you let your daighter marry one ?

[t6 sparky]

pre-madonna? Is that before she became a material girl? or after she became a prima-donna?:ok:

[Piper19]

As engineer I saw and heard several things from pilots that really were not professional toward engineers. To the extend I really didn't bother fixing things properly for them. Fortunately, I changed habit in this by getting to know some pilots (I fly myself), and my view on it changed. Most pilots are good chaps but rotten apples exist, just leave them alone when they are in maintenance trouble.
On the other hand, the same goes for engineers. I've heard engineers telling the most incorrect things to pilots just to get the aircraft away. And I sometimes also am stunned by the technical knowledge some pilots have about underlying systems.
So indeed, work as a team

[faz1989]

To the extend I really didn't bother fixing things properly for them.
WTF???????

[vs69]

Wheel replaced but not torqued up? Oxygen topped up with nitrogen? Or maybe just rigging the toilet up to blow warm effluent over the skipper when he flushes it? Do elaborate!

[tested satis]

Piper69, I hope you were not trying to explain the Engineers 'Professional Attitude' with your statement. Methinks you may have blown it!!!

[Lou Scannon]

I can still remember being a young RAF pilot and having it pointed out to me that you need "O" levels to be an officer and a pilot but "A" levels to make an airman in many engineering trades.

[Alber Ratman]

Simple answer to the Flight Crew vs Engineers arguement is that the first powered aircraft pilots were engineers before they were pilots!:E

[FlightTester]

The military is taking pilots out of the cockpit and making their aircraft automated, there are however no plans to do likewise with the maintenance of the same aircraft!:ok:

[zomerkoning]

I completely agree with all the posts about pilots needing engineers and vice versa, aviation is a team sport and people who don't understand that have no place in it in my honest opinion.

Also, Engineers make me laugh. At my company we have a lot to do with the engineers as the aircraft I fly are nearly (and some as) as old as I am. Usually they come up the stairs to ask us if the aircraft is good and if there weren't any major faults. As I know this I usually already say that directly after saying hello :)

Only last week it turned out I was mistaken...

Me: Hello! Aircraft is good!
Engineer: No it isn't...
Me: No really it's fine, no major problems (me thinking, engineer might have mixed up the aircraft)
Engineer: No really, it's f*cked
Me: Are you sure?
Engineer: Well.... it depends...
Me: On what...
Engineer: if you qualify a massive puddle of hydraulic fluid under the #1 engine and it still leaking out as no problem...
Me: *quiet and humbled again*

[mad_jock]

I am glad your peers have taken exception to that post piper19.

Rise above not sink to the level of the arseholes we all have to deal with day in day out. You will be a happier person for it.

[Blacksheep]

...if you're happy to take it we can one flight only it!'I say Eng, can you have a look at that Left Outer tyre please?

Its OK Cap'n, it has three landings left.


(For those who don't understand, thats one landing at the destination, one for the return and a spare in case of diversion.)

[LeadSled]

Folks,
All this remind me of a long since retired BOAC/BA engineer, many years at Heathrow, always worked on contract customer's aircraft (was also a motorbike maniac, some of you may remember him) because he was so good at diplomatically handling "contract customer's crews".

He wasn't a bad AME, either.

Anyway, we arrived late one morning, having had a rudder defect in Bangkok, where BA's chaps swapped some boxes, and the defect "disappeared".

By Heathrow, now we had a another rudder defect.

On the ground, said chap, very patiently (as he always did) explained to the "engineeringly challenged Captain", ie; me, all about the defect, and what "they" had done wrong in Bangkok.

In the middle of the explanation, he realised that what he had said was a complete explanation of why what he had said could NOT be the "new" problem, and changed gears so smoothly in doing a 180, that even I was impressed. Not even a momentary pause in the flow of "explanation".

As a matter of interest, the real problem all along was not electrical/electronic/hydraulic, but a mechanical failure in a PCU, where they had never failed before, as I found out after a big delay 36 hours later.

Amazing what you find, when you get up and actually have a look. But it took an increasing less diplomatic Captain quite a while to convince "the chappies" that they were going to have to get the cherrypicker and have that look see.

Tootle pip!!

[PENKO]

I dont want this to turn into a slagging match but I am interested in how much pilots actually know about how engineering is set up and the various levels of qualifications involved.


Actually now you mention it...I know there are avionics engineers and the guys that top up the oil so to speak. So no, I wouldn't mind a brief lesson in engineering, because this is a bit embarassing!

[lovezzin]

Design side of Engineering (Qualifications):

MINIMUM at entry-level career.

Engineer: Full-Time 3 Yrs Degree (or 3+x yrs part-time)
Pilot: Full-Time 1.5 Yrs practical flying and multiple choice box ticking.

'nuff said. :}

[mary meagher]

As the owner of a PA18 that lives a hard life as a glider tug, we could not go very far without the TLC of my engineer, a man of great experience, incredible ingenuity, absolute integrity, and all the engineering qualifications.

[mary meagher]

Recommend to all engineers (and pilots) in need of a good laugh, visit ATC Humour sticky, page six, item 115......

[Piper19]

Faz1989, I meant that their comments made me feel bad at that time, not that I would have send an unsafe airplane in the air. Pwew, I hope I saved my day here. Sometimes difficult to express yourself in a foreign language.:ok:

[aveng]

My personal favourite with regards to pilots is " you can teach a monkey to ride a bike - but when the chain falls off he;s f****d! and to flight attendants "Chicken or the beef - seriously how hard could it be!"

I am baffled somedays at how little some of the younger pilots Know about what they're driving. Sign of the times really, too much simulation and not enough banging head on things.:ok:

[HAWK21M]

Im from Maintenance.My Experience says that there are all types of apples.....Most are good ones.
Pilots/AMEs have a good to excellent rappot.However one may encounter the fresher who thinks differently.But its a matter of time before the fresher comes on line.

[mad_jock]

I am baffled somedays at how little some of the younger pilots Know about what they're driving

You and me both mate. And its the lack of enthusiasm to find out as well.

Had a engineer on the jump seat today. His first jump seat ride.
He was a heavy maint engineer qualified for engine runs but had never seen the engines indications inflight. Loads of questions afterwards and a pleasure to answer them as well.

And we spotted him tweaking one of the flight idles down and talking on the phone about re-rigging the old girl when she was next in on check. I think his attitude to lever splits has been changed ;)

Its just a pity we couldn't give him a Effects of Controls part 1 lesson. I suspect he would have had a PPL within a year.

[stevef]

[Im from Maintenance.My Experience says that there are all types of apples.....Most are good ones.
Pilots/AMEs have a good to excellent rappot.However one may encounter the fresher who thinks differently.But its a matter of time before the fresher comes on line.]

Same applies to engineers. (And I are one :))

[morroccomole]

Reminds me of a time when I was working as an Engineer at an Eastish European Outstation for a well known Independent British Company. We were all Engineers and Pilots trying our best to make things work. This effort involved a certain amount of socialising.:D

One evening, some engineers arrived at a party arranged by the locally employed cabin crew, armed with the pre requisite case of beer as an entrance fee. They were met at the door by a newly qualified wet behind the ears F/O who relieved them of their beer and told them 'politely' that they were not invited. As fine upstanding gentlemen, the Engineers left without fuss and went elsewhere. :ugh:

Needless to say, the news of this event started to filter out over the next day or 2.

Fast forward 2 days and I am doing a turnround on one of the Aeroplanes, and the F/O is the very same newly qulaified wet behind the ears chappie. His Captain, was a young guy who had an Engineering background. So, we are all in the flight deck together, and the Captain says to the F/O, pointing at another Engineer doing a walkround next door, "See that Engineer down there? I want you to remember that one day you will need him more than you need the hole in your arse, so treat him and his friends with respect." Then, reaching into his Flight Bag and pulling out a burgundy document with gold embossed lettering that he places on the centre console the Capt says: "Furthermore, you need to know, that I AM ONE OF THEM TOO, so you give them the same respect you give me!" :=

The burgundy document was the Captain's UK CAA Aircraft Maint Engineers Licence (Sect L in them days). He had served an apprenticeship with a UK Airline and done a number of years on the connie circuit before becoming a pilot. :ok:

No further problems were experienced

[muduckace]

Bottom line, it comes down to people skills in my oppinion. I head up on a blockout open the cockpit door and smile.... If I get a smile back we are co-workers, working together to fix what ever problem said flight crew has.

No smile or any attitude and I respond in the same manner any human being would.

I have seen generalized differences between large companies and smaller ones. I have had more personality conflicts with pilots who fly for large airlines. The greatest pilots I have worked with were at smaller companies that everyone was basically being treated like **** at or a few that I rode often as a "ride on" maintenance rep.

Had alot of respect for the Captain that turned around after the pre flight briefing if we did not know each other well and told me if I saw anything wrong not to hesitate to break the "sterile cockpit" rule.

At large airlines I have heard of flight crews warning jumpseating techs not to open the cockpit door because they are armed and will not hesitate to shoot.

What a difference in mentality.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Coming at this from the other end - I wonder about some Engineers.

Not, by and large, maintenance engineers/technicians who in my experience have a pretty much universal interest in how their flying machines work and to a fair extent are operated (although probably never get as much chance to learn as they'd like).


But the graduate/chartered/"professional" engineer cadre who often have little or no grasp of the broader picture of how the aircraft is maintained and operated. Worse still, they very often don't seem to see this lack of knowledge as a problem.

In my opinion, this malaise starts in the universities who (not always, but often) are populated by people teaching who have only very narrow knowledge of stress/aerodynamics/whatever and think that because this is how they're allowed (and to a fair extent, encouraged) to function within a university, this is normal and healthy practice in a real engineer. So, they push out graduates who believe that they're doing their job properly by being as blinkered as possible - aerodynamicists don't need to understand structures and vice versa, and neither apparently need to know anything about how the aircraft is actually maintained and operated.

G

[Eructation]

Kingston university offer Aircraft Engineering as a three year Hon degree with the B1 licence. Many graduates are joining us and are excellent being both practical and technically knowledgeable. Employed as B1 or B2 they are very competent and enthusiastic and I feel that aircraft maintenance will have an even more professional workforce as a result.
I hold a B1 and an ATPL and both require a lot of study and hard work so in my opinion we are the same but British society does not agree with me and never will!