JPI Engine Monitors EDM700/800/730/830

[PH-UKU]

Anyone out there in EASA-land with recent experience of fitting a JPI EDM ?

Looking to purchase an engine monitor and like the look of the new JPI 730/830 (http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_730_830.html).

Although I can get one of the older 700/800 models (http://www.jpinstruments.com/edm_800.html) pretty cheap.

As usually happens with US manufacturers .... :ugh: ....the JPI STC SA2586NM (http://www.jpitech.com/manuals/01/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20MEL101FF-REV14.pdf) misses out all the French built Reims-Cessnas. So, it may be TSO'd but it aint STC'd.

I've asked the manufacturer if they would consider getting the French Cessnas added onto the FAA STC, then they can apply to EASA under the bilateral agreement. (This is exactly how we got a pair of floats approved by EASA). But they don't seem interested and suggest a 'field approval'.

I suspect I will need an approval specific to my airframe, and I have heard it can be a bit of a lottery how EASA react ...

So, the question is ...... how easy (and costly) is it to get either of them fitted and approved in EASA-land? Is it worth the hassle? Anyone recommend an engineer who has recently got one fitted and approved, or who at EASA does sensible approvals?

All assistance greatly appreciated. :ok:

[fholbert]

My hangar neighbor developed the 730/830 for JPI and I've been looking at an 830 since before they went public. Suggest the 830 over the 730.

Have you called JPI and made a request?

Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com

[IO540]

EASA, being European and therefore knowing everything as well as being morally and intellectually superior to America, do not recognise FAA STCs.

Somebody has to generate an EASA STC, and this has to be specific to the aircraft type.

In the UK, I think Lees Avionics is the main firm which generates these STCs and (as well as doing their own installations) they sell the paperwork packs to most of the other UK avionics shops.

[ab33t]

We have th 700 intsalled in our piper and have been struggling with support in the UK for this.

[englishal]

I need to get one soon, and the new ones look pretty cool. I like the oil pressure feature and I guess they do TIT and shock cooling monitoring?

[IO540]

This is a new product.

Guys (or "punks" :) ) - do you feel lucky?

I have an EDM700. Brand new in 2002 - factory option, factory fitted. That product was a few years in the market by then. Did it work when I got the plane? Answers on a postcard...

It actually worked (just as well since it was STCd, and DGAC approved, to replace the primary CHT/EGT instruments) but one could not download any data from it. The software was simply not "quite all together". Maybe the writer did a malloc() for 2MB instead of 2kb, and went surfing before writing the code to check the return code. Not that any embedded code should do that anyway ;)

And their download system was crap for years afterwards, and basically still is. If the queue pointer wraps around (i.e. if you don't download early enough each time) the whole data buffer is lost. Only their most recent software can recover the (any) data, and it cannot save in .csv anymore. Only the Micro$oft .xcl format is available. They used to have a very old DOS program which also worked properly... one used to have to email them the "corrupted" downloads to get the stuff out of them, but they often did not reply.

I would never fit something this all-ecompassing in a plane which I actually wanted to use to go places, and Euro-reg to boot... when it is so new.

[Zulu Alpha]

My EDM700 works fine and downloads with no problems. THe supplied program exports to an excel file if needed.

The only criticism was the lack of oil pressure monitoring which seems to be fixed on this new unit. I'd like to see one before taking the plunge though. Anyone in LAA land have one?

ZA

[PH-UKU]

JPI are not interested in pursuing an EASA STC for the european Cessnas :hmm:

Questions for those that are operating a JPI EDM in a UK registered ac...

Is it on an STC ?
Is it on an approval for that airframe only ?
How much did the paperwork side cost ?
Would you do it again?
Would you recommend a different manufacturer ?

[IO540]

I have an EDM700, which Socata got certified as a primary CHT/EGT instrument on their factory type certificate.

I think the EDM700 is all sorted for a Euro-reg plane and has been for some years. There are certainly many old CAA-approved installs.

Maybe not as a primary instrument replacement but what the hell; you stick the "primary instrument" in the corner somewhere and forget about it. I have the original fuel flow "primary instrument" which doesn't even read fuel flow (it measures fuel pressure and the scale is calibrated as flow; it's kind of OK, +/- 10-20% or so).

It is the more comprehensive "all engine parameters" JPI products which will be tough on EASA paperwork.

The Q I would ask is what net benefit does one gain from collecting all the data in one place, when having it on separate redundant instruments whose data presentation style is the same anyway gets around most of the paperwork, and gives you an easy to maintain system where any AOG situation is fixed with a replacement that can be usually done in the field - "informally" if necessary - in not many minutes.

That, for example, is why I would go for the Shadin (or JPI) separate fuel flow, rather than for the EDM700 with the fuel flow option.

Re a diff mfg, well there is basically just EI (http://buy-ei.com/). You can ask them about EASA STCs :) It's an uncannily similar product and the two firms hate each other because, IIRC, JPI sued EI but lost. I have no experience of EI and don't know anybody who has any 1st hand. It seems that JPI have the export distribution / avionics shop reseller market sewn up. But EI have more sturdy probes. I have had 2 or 3 JPI EGT probes fail (obviously in all cases) but EI would probably be a lot better. And they are all the same type of thermocouple anyway, IIRC (type J or K).

I have seen the EDM700 internals and was deeply unimpressed. A number of tall electrolytic caps which are asking to suffer from vibration. But I have not heard of reliability issues - other than a relative ease with which the DB25 connector on the back can be ripped right out by a clumsy installer.

If I was doing it all again, and had a choice, I would look at EI closely. Their customer service can't be worse than JPI's but one could make similar statements about most American avionics firms, selling stuff to far away and unexplored corners of the unknown universe :)

I would not fly a serious IFR tourer without this type of instrument, ever.

[wigglyamp]

The EDM700/760 and FS450 are approved on grand-fathered UK CAA Major mods (AANs) and these are validations of the FAA AML approvals, so cover almost all American-built light aircraft. As such, they can be used on any EU-registered aircraft that's listed on the FAA STC. Unfortunalely they don't include Robins or Reims-built Cessnas etc (there are routes round this if needed). This sort of engine monitor, where it does not provide/replace a primary engine indicating function does not need to be an EASA STC, but can be treated as Minor change.

The new EDM930/960 full engine instrument displays replace existing primary/mandatory displays so must be treated as a Major change. They are too recent to have got old national approvals, and EASA won't accept the FAA AML STCs. The only solution is to generate a new EASA STC per aircraft type. JPI told me they will provide technical support to an EASA DOA, but the cost of the STC must be borne by the end-user. This will be prohibitive unless several customers of the same aircraft type get together to fund it - look for someting in the region of £8000 + EASA fees of about €1050. This may be OK if you're looking at a group of Cessna 421s etc, but I don't think it's likely to happen for C182s.

[n5296s]

fwiw I have an EDM830 in my plane and I'm very happy with it, had it for about 6 months now. Picture of it in flight:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3608944845_c82005a599.jpg

More pics if you click the picture then follow the "avionics" tag. There are a couple of minor irritations with it but on the whole I'm very happy with all aspects of it.

I'm afraid this doesn't help with the EASA issues though. Americans have a hard time understanding why I feel blessed that we have the FAA...

n5296s

[IO540]

Unless I am missing something (like the picture of the full panel :) ) if the LCD packs up, you will lose

rpm
mp
egt
cht
tit
2.5 US dollars :)
fuel flow
fob
oat

all in one go.

Otherwise I agree it is pretty neat.

I would always back up the OAT, and have done with a 2nd probe feeding the GTX330 OAT option (which can be grossly inaccurate BTW).

And on a long flight, the loss of the fuel flow data will mean a landing ASAP.

[Tinstaafl]

I, too, like segregation between the different types of data & associated displays. The PA31 I fly for the owner had a JPI 760 installed to replace a digital display dual EGT. I think its wonderful! The aircraft already had a Shadin Fuel Flow so no need for the more expensive FF option for the 760. It also means no extra toggle switch to choose display modes of the 760. Instead, FF & endurance are permanently displayed which I find preferable. A downside is that the integral FF option allows fuel data to be included the rest of the data download whereas I have to record that separately. The factory Oil T./Oil P./CHT triple displays remain in place.

There's quite a bit of redundancy in the configuration so a single failure has little effect. Even leaning can be done fairly accurately for familiar power settings/altitudes without the JPI760, now that I've had time to regularly monitor the data.

If you go for a JPI7xx, make sure you specify the USB option when you order. Never thought in this day & age that a crappy serial port version would be the default. Had to send it back so that was a 1 week turn-around + 200 bucks. The serial port version requires a PalmPilot or laptop with a serial port & specific software & rooting around with serial ports & a terminal to download the engine data. The USB model just requires a USB stick and downloads automatically, ready to be plugged into any PC. There's an adapter kit as an alternative that will allow a serial port version to save to a USB stick but it's a bit clunky compared to having a USB conversion and being done with it.

A couple of niggles though:

The data port cable from the unit isn't particularly long. Its length limits where you can mount the data port in relation to the unit. The cable is integral so you can't just replace it. JPI's advice is to use a USB extender cable from any PC supplier. I don't like that because there's nothing to ensure the cable remains attached apart from the USB socket - and that isn't designed to be a locked connection. They should have made cable length an option.

The data is in a proprietary format. It's only a bloody table of data so why they moved away from a universal CSV text file is beyond me. You now need to use their Windows only software to view the data. Even their software allows the data to be exported to CSV (or it might be .XLS. Been a while since I've done it) so they've introduced an extra bit of buggerising around to get a universally understood file format. Bloody idiots.

[IO540]

Agree with the above.

However, an RS232 port is fine. I can sell you a £25 adaptor for a USB-only laptop - this is what I use. The advantage is that the data can come out on a decent quality connector, rather than the crappy USB connector. But this is only a detail.

It would be interesting whether the USB option results in a faster download. I don't think it does. I think all that JPI do is resell a USB-serial adaptor, in a little box :) The EDM is a very old design (1970s) and I seriously doubt they have implemented a USB Slave interface in there, using one of the two chips on the market. But they may have done.

The actual instruments are not really pricey - if one looks at the US list prices. What costs as much if not more money is the sensor installation. An EDM7xx takes a day or two to wire up and fit the probes, and a lot of installers can't do it very well anyway. The fuel flow transducer needs some pipes to be made up (correctly otherwise you get turbulence and massive errors) and the transducer alone is $600 from the USA.

[Tinstaafl]

According to JPI there's a circuit board addition in USB version. I presume it includes a USB chip but I suppose it could be be an internal serial-to-USBadapter. Either way having the USB version means not having to drag a laptop to the aircraft to download the data and possibly a USB-to-serial adapter. A USB memory stick is much more convenient. Even in flight I can download the data conveniently.

The other option - an adapter they sell - is a serial to USB adapter box that needs to be powered from a cigarette lighter while in use. I think it's a clunky solution compared to sending the EDM away to be modified with a replacement USB interface.

[n5296s]

Unless I am missing something (like the picture of the full panel ) if the LCD packs up, you will lose

rpm
mp
egt
cht
tit
2.5 US dollars
fuel flow
fob
oat

True, including the $2.50. In my case I kept all the original steam-era instruments, so there is nothing essential for flight that I would lose. Actually my motivation for buying it is that my ammeter has developed a bizarre fault where it SOMETIMES misreads, so now I have battery voltage and I don't need it. Also of course the data recording capability, which is really the big advantage. I had a first-generation GEM before and this is a lot better - more precise, easier to read, plus the storage.

n5296s