Operation Saif Sareea 2 Information [Archive]

Scorpius

29th Jul 2001, 19:58

Thankfully I'm not going - but talking to the unlucky E3D crew who are going I will be very surprised if they get airborne! Flight safety is the word being branded about. They don't appear too happy about sharing a sweaty tent with a bunch of snorers. So after they've had a good night's kip they will be more than willing to fly an 8 hour mission! Some how how I think some one is kidding some one. Apparently this issue has been raised with the powers to be but the answer came back - "You are still going - it doesn't matter if you don't fly!" The bottom line is that we all have rules and regulations that we follow - and break at your own peril. If the crew were to fly they will have to contravine a whole host of regs. This is OK until something goes horribly wrong! Then you will be hung out to dry as you broke the orders which clearly state .......

BEagle

29th Jul 2001, 20:10

.......so if it doesn't matter if you don't fly, why are you going? Presumably the same fatigue rules will apply to everyone else - so if it all grinds to a halt on day 2 because 'they' wouldn't fork out for the abundant and readily available local accommodation, who will be to blame? Not that I'm inciting rebellion, but the way that morale is these days, I can't see many people accepting being pressured to fly.

"You want to fly it, Sir? Fine - the keys are behind the Ops desk. But you'll be flying it solo!"

We didn't live in $hit in the Gulf WAR, so why are people expected to in a PEACETIME EXERCISE??

Otis Spunkmeyer

29th Jul 2001, 23:06

I'm one of those dreadful snorers. Would it be better for everyone if I stayed in the Intercontinental?

Just a thought.

Adastral

30th Jul 2001, 02:58

It seems like an awfully expensive way of proving that we are no longer able to organize a det of this magnitude... or is it just part of the ongoing aircrew retention drive?! :D

Thud_and_Blunder

30th Jul 2001, 03:08

Scorpius, BEagle et al,

'Sfunny, but I seem to remember a particular corner of the Gulf War where aircrew slept in tented accom during the day then did their 8-10 hour night sorties. We slept like logs, too - except when the Saudi F5 driver pushed the wrong button and pickled his 750lb-ers 2 miles off the end of the threshhold. Flight Safety was not affected by the sleeping arrangements - we'd have moved somewhere different if it had been.

However, as this doubtless goes against the grain of the campaign for peacetime comfort I'll get me coat. And me sleeping bag, Spam folding bed, groundsheet....

For what it's worth, the only snag I ever had on Loan Service in Oman with sleeping in the ulu on those 2-week border patrol dets was believing the myths about camel spiders - which aren't spiders at all, apparently.

Have fun, but don't use minor inconvenience or the perceived scope for discomfort as a Flight Safety excuse. A reason to leave and fly for the airlines maybe, but not a Flight Safety excuse...

(couldn't spell threshhold. Still not sure if I can...)

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: Thud_and_Blunder ]

HEIGHTSGOODBACK5

30th Jul 2001, 08:08

I would have thought there would be no problem sleeping after a hard days work or was that whingeing about no hotels and lack of rates etc.

DRAW UP A SANDBAG AND I'LL TELL YOU A STORY!!

DESPERADO

30th Jul 2001, 09:52

Without wishing to gain the wrath of those of you complaining about the sub-standard accom, I would like to point out that until recently a large number of us were doing equally long stints in tented accommodation in Al's Garage.

It was always a boost to morale to know that when the VC10/Herc unloaded its human cargo the crews were off to the Bahrain Diplomat for a bit of well earned R&R. Don't get me wrong, as far as I am concerned I didn't begrudge you your lovely hotel, I just wished that I could have had the same. As, I am sure, do the current unfortunate Sqn who are occupying the rather unpleasent accom in AAS.

My point however, is that believe it or not, you are in the military, and sometimes we in the military are asked to do things that aren't exactly in keeping with our idea of a cosy life. So what? If you don't like it, go and join the airlines, like many of you keep threatening to do. Continuously whining about a lack of quality accom on a public website is an embarrassment. There are always people worse off than you, who have to do jobs that are as important, and as difficult as flying, without bleating about lack of sleep. B4 anybody asks, yes my Sqn is going, and no, given the choice I wouldn't, but sometimes, you just have to get on with it and maybe set an example by grinning and baring it. With the right attitude you may even enjoy it, God forbid.

Standing by for the tirade & insults.

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: DESPERADO ]

BEagle

30th Jul 2001, 10:07

It's not a question of 'hotels and rates' - it's a question of providing proper rest facilities which will not compromise the ability to mount sustained flying activities in a peacetime exercise environment.

The 'rigid' tentage used in Incirlik was reasonable enough - but was US provided. Somehow I don't see our lot being able to provide anything that good; whether anyone will get much sleep camped out at an extremely busy international airport is a different matter!

The VC10/Herc crew which brought you out to Al's or AAS normally have only the bare minimum time off permitted under GASOs before flying a rather happier bunch of bunnies back to the UK!

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

The Scarlet Pimpernel

30th Jul 2001, 11:09

Before some of the aircrew start whinging, spare a thought for everyone else on the exercise who aren't in air conditioned tents! As far as I can ascertain, the only aircon tents are reserved for aircrew so that they can get a decent night's kip.

Having done several stints in Al's Garage and Q8 I can't see the point in moaning about it ...... life is always a lot sweeter if you accept the fact and get on with it. It's not going to be pleasant, but it'll be a damned sight worse if you have the wrong attitude.

sprucemoose

30th Jul 2001, 11:44

Good to see that my repeated requests to go out and cover the exercise one have been a waste of time, then - thanks Jacko, and good to have you back online!

I'm hardly a subversive ppruner like yourself, though, so I guess I just don't work for a title that's influential enough?

Anyway, I'm off on my hols for a few weeks after today, so don't care - at least I'll have air conditioning!

Moose

PTT

30th Jul 2001, 18:18

Scarlet

Not all of the aircrew are in air-conditioned tents. AFAIK, it's the FJ boys and MT(?) who will be getting the air-con.
If we can undersling the air-con units, though.... :D

PTT

SandyCrevice

30th Jul 2001, 19:45

It's not all aircrew that have got the air conditioned tents. At Seeb, it's only stated that it's provided for the flight deck. So, only 3 of the 13 crew on a Nimrod. Although, it has been decided that of the 2 crews, whichever is flying the next day (assuming both aren't flying), the crew can squeeze into the 12-man air-con tent for a cooler nights sleep.

I agree the noise from Muscat International may be a problem, but I'm not sure how busy it is at night. As for already stating that you won't be fit to fly is a bit of a premature whinge. We all know it won't be as comfortable as the Intercon, but see what it's like when you're there.

It's going to be what you make it, and certainly on the flying side there's going to be good training to be had. The 2 Nimrod crews have chipped in £10 each towards buying stuff to take, like volley ball nets, deck chairs etc. Lets see if I'm still saying this when I get back at the end of October??????????

Tourist

30th Jul 2001, 21:15

My God you crabs whinge a lot!

Odi

30th Jul 2001, 23:17

Tourist - Mrs Odi says exactly the same thing! :rolleyes: She'll be out on detachment with the QARANC :cool:

Bogbrush

30th Jul 2001, 23:53

It's your job, if you don't like it, leave!!

ChristopherRobin

30th Jul 2001, 23:58

Yeah what a bunch of poofters. Call yourself military? I hope not. If anyone was looking for proof that the RAF were civvies in uniform then they need look no further than this forum.

Worried about safety? My arse. Worried about scuffing your nail-varnish on all that sand more like.

Hope you lot aren't in charge of anybody.
Fine figure of leadership you'd be.

Flatus Veteranus

31st Jul 2001, 00:02

I went out on exercise in the desert with a Guards regiment once. The Officers' Mess marquee was fabulous and would have done a Sheikh proud. Oriental carpets, polished mahogany tables, crystal, regimental silver, excellent food and wines etc etc. I mentioned to the CO that this was not my expectation of "real soldiering". He replied: "Any fool can be uncomfortable!"

BEagle

31st Jul 2001, 00:15

For the benefit of those who don't understand, all that those going on detachment are asking is that normal peacetime standards of safety will not be eroded on the grounds of financial expediency. If the Kipper fleet want to bring volley ball nets, swimming costumes and deck chairs with them - fine. If the rest facilities are basic but compliant with peacetime rules - fine as well. But if they're not, then peacetime rules dictate that flying WILL suffer. For those ignorant of the requirements of duty of care, remember that WE ARE NOT AT WAR - so don't be tempted to push any limits.

Stupid "We're well 'ard rufty tufty wocca mates wot lives in ditches and farts in front of ossifers" comments will be given the studied contempt they merit!

Back in the '70s I has a very interesting couple of weeks 'in the field' with the Harrier force in Germany. But even then they watched the rest and fatigue rules VERY carefully! Though that was before the days of financial stringency............

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

ChristopherRobin

31st Jul 2001, 00:33

As pious as ever Beagle, but is that halo shrinking your head? Safety isn't the issue I'm going on about - everyone knows that takes first place.

What I am trying to point out is that some people on this thread are candy-ass primadonnas who whinge.

And you and I know that a lot of those same people would get less rest shacked up in a hotel room with a mini-bar.

Scorpius

31st Jul 2001, 02:52

BEagle - perhaps we are wasting our time. I take my hat off to anyone who is quite happy to let one of my weapons controllers ( E3D mission crew ) vector them around other ac in an exercise environment. Believe me I have watched them being completely maxed out to over capacity. This is how accidents happen and people die! Haven't we lost enough people recently? Or is this acceptable with some of you?

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Scorpius ]

Ed Winchester

31st Jul 2001, 03:52

I don't know about the 'ever-so-refined musn't get me loafers dirty' ME types, but us 'well 'ard rufty-tufty wocca types who fart (and some of us are even officers)' operate under different rules on authorized exercises, which can involve longer crew duty periods than normal, etc.

TRAIN HARD - FIGHT EASY.

Why the emphasis on it being a PEACETIME Exercise; I would have thought that the best time to have an Exercise.

If you are worried about not getting your beauty sleep because you are sleeping next to an international airport, don't. Some of us live on one, and sleep just fine.

Surely if people have Flight Safety concerns over this exercise, they should be voicing them to the IFS. Is there any need to bleat on a public forum, especially when all Rusty wanted was some gen on the exercise.

Rusty, you have stirred up a right hornets nest here (unintentionally, I presume?!)

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

Flatus Veteranus

31st Jul 2001, 15:30

Surely it is accepted in the 21st century that aircrew who have to operate under rapid changes of time-zone, climate and diet need special consideration. This applies particularly to transport crews, civil or military. Does anyone really want to be flown home from the ME, arriving at BZN or elsewhere under possibly limiting conditions, by a crew who have had no sleep for 20+ hours?

20 years ago a C130 night-stopped at Ankara and I (as AA) put them up in the Buyuk Ankara hotel - the best in town and the only one with air conditioned rooms. Next day the aircraft had to be flown most of the way to Lyneham by a CENTO staff officer because the crew were stricken with food poisoning. Shades of "Flight into Danger"!. :(

BEagle

31st Jul 2001, 16:40

1. There is a BIG difference between a peacetime exercise (e.g. EX SAIF SAREEA 2) and a TTW exercise (e.g. EX IMMINENT THUNDER in Nov 1990). During that I had the joy of living at Tabuk in a non-air conditioned portakabin 20 feet from 2 huge diesel generators running flat out with 8 other people in the same cabin. Only time I've ever had to resort to the issue Temazopan (or however you spell it)!

2. I didn't mean to infer that ALL RW mates were 'rufty tufty wocca mates wot lives in ditches and farts in front of ossifers' - just those with that particular mind set. All the SH mates I worked with in the sun-drenched Islas Malvinas were highly professional operators. But the minority who think that they're "well 'ard - 'n everyone else is a soft poof" are the creatures I'm referring to!

3. The Buyuk Cemali in Adana was just as bad in 1997!

Rusty Cessna

31st Jul 2001, 20:08

Ed,

Yes I have stirred one up, and yes it was very unintentional, as you say, I just wanted some info, I was keeping quiet because, well, I didn't know what to say, or if to delete the thread.

My apologies to all,
Rusty

The Gorilla

31st Jul 2001, 21:55

No need to apologise, you have started off a healthy debate. Depending upon which side of the fence you sit, it's either whinging or a valid point for discussion. All I will say, and I'm not going by the way, is that some of the points classed as whinging HAVE been brought up to management. I will state that the ONLY way Saif Sareea can be a success is if the shop floor workers break the rules.

I do not believe it will be a success and I am horrified that all the lessons learnt in 1990/1991, about desert ops, seem to have been brushed aside in order for the new age bean counters to get promoted.

Whatever any one says, the RAF today is punching well above it's weight and Saif dioreea will prove it. The very fact that we have run out of money even before it starts is testament to this.

Neee Nah the train now arriving.... :p

djwarren

31st Jul 2001, 23:58

Can anyone confirm or deny that the Army are already reducing the numbers deployed as they haven't budgeted for enough water?

I'm personally looking forward to dying of thirst, in my tent 400 miles from any city, in the middle of a sand and gravel plain, whilst not wearing the desert boots, clothing and hat I wasn't entitled to and wondering whether SSII wasn't a cleverly designed Treasury trick to reduce military manpower even further.

Oh well, it's only for 3 months after all.
:rolleyes:

Autorev

1st Aug 2001, 01:25

Bogbrush - wise words for a first post
"It's your job, if you don't like it, leave!! "
If you read previous threads/postings, you may realise that people are doing exactly that. Jaunts like SSII is only sppeding up the exodus

As for the hoards of people who would love to leave but cannot, what is your advice to them.....?

Oggin Aviator

2nd Aug 2001, 01:37

Get yourself onto the CVS and enjoy the substantial air con throughout the ship :D

:) :) I'll even treat you to a beer or two (heard a rumour that the RAF det was dry) !!

<OA ducks now to avoid the flak !!>

BEagle

2nd Aug 2001, 02:33

Much as I'm sure my colleagues would love to accept your kind hospitality, oggin aviator matey, regrettably your little boats are a wee bit too small for a 4-jet or two! So they'll have to forego the pleasures of being part of your organic air group, I'm afraid!

Oggin Aviator

2nd Aug 2001, 16:46

Shame ! Would have been nice to entertain you all.
Perhaps if you are still around after it has finished (although I doubt this very much !!), you could come aboard for the outstanding Coctail Parties (and post CTP Wardroom Party) that will be held in a few ports in the area.

........ just a thought !

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Oggin Aviator ]

Albert on Tour

3rd Aug 2001, 00:05

Hot Poop Anecdote from Thumrait.

(I've just got back, via the Crown Plaza, Muscat, naturally!)

The Police dogs in Thumrait are going to be in airconditioned accomodation, but not the humans.

Perfectly good reason for this, but it did rather tickle me.

Gainesy

3rd Aug 2001, 14:46

Do I detect a cunning pre-emptive PR stunt?
"Its OK Joe Public, the troops may be dropping like flies in the heat, but the nice doggies are being looked after", said Brigadier Walter Wall-Carpeting.

TL Thou

3rd Aug 2001, 19:57

FYI To get back to the original question, this is what Buff had to say originally about the forces involved...

MOD ANNOUNCES MAJOR MILITARY EXERCISE IN OMAN
8 November 2000

The Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, announced yesterday that the largest British military exercise undertaken since the Strategic Defence Review will take place in Oman next year.

Over 20,000 British service personnel will take part in Exercise “Saif Sareea II” (Swift Sword II), next Autumn, in Oman, where they will demonstrate the concept of Joint Rapid Reaction Forces.

“Saif Sareea II”, will involve a Naval Task Force of 17 ships led by HMS Illustrious, a Commando Brigade and an Armoured Brigade with some 500 armoured vehicles, including 66 Challenger 2 tanks. This force will exercise with Omani forces and will take place in September and October 2001. The first “Saif Sareea” exercise was held in 1986.

And also Spellar said that 12 Tornado GR4 aircraft are scheduled to Ex SAIF SAREEA, as part of a total of 50 combat aircraft. :o

Albert on Tour

3rd Aug 2001, 21:11

...and some police dogs

Talking Radalt

4th Aug 2001, 00:23

...which will be cool! Unlike their handlers.

MaxAOB

4th Aug 2001, 00:40

So with all the other blurb going on around the world - who exactly will be left defending this country. Just hope some nasty nation doesn't get wind of the fact that we are incapable of doing what the SDR said we would be!!

:) :rolleyes: :p

ChristopherRobin

4th Aug 2001, 01:13

who said anything about defending the country? we'll be defending the oil and that's what matters!

...next to animal welfare of course.

Oggin Aviator

4th Aug 2001, 01:52

"we'll be defending the oil and that's what matters!"

and helping BAe flog some more gear .....

ADIS5000

4th Aug 2001, 03:02

You can all sleep tight in your tents. I'll be defending blighty from a hole in the ground in the north of Scotland.

Who needs a sun tan anyhow?

Cheers, ADIS :cool:

jockspice

7th Aug 2001, 21:53

Having read through the entire post I have to echo a past comment - :mad:
crabs drip like ****ing ten men - its your job, you can leave if you want to so dont poison those who may have the enthusiasm that all the services require.
You do your reputation no favours. :(

BEagle

7th Aug 2001, 22:00

Another well researched and reasoned contribution from some other service's rotary world.

But there again, they're probably going to be spending most of their time bobbing up and down on the briny in some little grey boat during this particular senior officers' promotion course!!

Retention problem in the FAA - nooooh, of course there isn't!!

Tiger_mate

8th Aug 2001, 00:07

Saif Sareea 2 should have been called "Purple helmet II" cause nothing has changed, and remember the fatality 20 mins after the "war" started. No tropical flying suits, not enough water, and sleeping (or rather watching the clock every 30 mins all night) cause of the noisy flying things (Not the Puma/Chinook, the mossies).

We must be due a round of promotions, you can tell who: The ones playing golf whilst everyone else moans.. I wonder how many deaths are written into this one, be careful out there, thanks be to god for making sure I wont be.

How much water are the rations reduced to?

Better take some Headex.

Incipient Sinner

8th Aug 2001, 02:07

Whatever percentage is accounted for fatalities (god forbid), be it due to the driving, flying or the weather conditions, when you put 20,000 guys in a desert the result is almost inevitable.

I agree that the closest some big wigs will get to the sand will be in a bunker. :mad: And don't worry guys, at least we'll be able to make sand castles to while away the time.

jockspice

8th Aug 2001, 02:40

Beags

I'll be one of the many watching them arrive and watching them leave, thanks, in the tent with or without air con.

As for well thought out comment, ask any man on the ground his opinion of preferred mode of transportation.
:D

BEagle

8th Aug 2001, 02:53

Anything which heads out of theatre probably! Whether it has wings, blades, wheels or sails! Or even four legs and a hump?

MOA

8th Aug 2001, 14:28

Heard a figure of 15 or less fatalaties would make it 'a succesful exercise'!? Or I could be talking complete b@ll@cks as I normally do!

The latest I've heard is 5 deaths so far, all RTAs, plus one snakebite (not fatal). It's not so much of a 'fly safe' but also 'dive safe' exercise at the moment...

Now where did I put that Factor 40?

Suit

8th Aug 2001, 15:58

MaxAOB,

Defend the country from whom and against what exactly?

The only remote threat to this country comes from a terrorist bomb or a ballistic missile, and you lot can do nothing about either!

Saif Sera thingy is about politics oil and exports and has sod all to do with any kind of defence

Suit

Ruffled as he was a bit too close for comfort to a certain part of London last week!

Chinese Vic

8th Aug 2001, 16:33

I find it interesting that the last time Her Majesty's finest (be it light/dark blue or green) did something on this scale, it was back in Aug 90 - Apr 91 and EVERYTHING ELSE STOPPED! And bear in mind that the RAF was about half as big again as it is now.
We've had (very) senior officers telling us that this Ex is just as important as the ops we currently maintain, and yet the logistical support is just not there. One of my airmen has just been kitted for SSII, and is missing Desert boots, Desert DPM combat fatigues and the new Sleeping system. He's been told that his Greens, Combat boots and 'maggot' designed for European ops will have to do. Of course, the list could go on...mosquito nets, t-shirts, etc etc
Add that to the decision to halve the daily water allowance to 20 litres per person per day for all uses; tented cities with no external lighting, one light bulb per tent and no other power (this is for the four-man tents that include all ranks up to and including Gp Capt); a seemingly random NFU selection policy that has left me with 40% of my flight deployed...

And weren't we supposed to practice combined deployment training before we embark on SSII? I fully understand why CT was cancelled this year, but that was our chance to sort out the bugs before going to the desert, where mistakes get people killed - seven fatalities already, if you believe the rumours.

Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-RAF and will fight our corner under most circumstances, but I am glad I'm not going on SSII and want nothing at all to do with it. Politics and Money over Capability!

Vic

P.S. Before I get slated as a hotel-loving slacker, I've been on a few sh***y ops in my time including Granby (Thumrait in 90) and most of the other FJ ops since. So there!!!

TL Thou

8th Aug 2001, 18:02

Well, perhaps take some comfort, if the thing is as bad as 99% of people here are saying it will be, at least Buff will be getting his backside tanned. :cool:

trailfinder

8th Aug 2001, 20:43

Talking about accommodation, does anyone have any recommendations for hotels in Muscat? Will be spending some nights under canvas as well but would be good to know some alternatives.

Thanks

Perky Penguin

9th Aug 2001, 09:50

If money is no object try the Al Bustan Palace to the East of Muscat. The Intercontinental to the West, in the diplomatic area is very good too. A search on G**gle will give you a good choice. It must be tough for you Saif Sarrea guys - I did 6 years at Thumrait, but not recently and not in a tent I must admit!

Vortex what...ouch!

9th Aug 2001, 17:54

Very well said JHC. I whole heartedly agree with every comment.

FODA

9th Aug 2001, 17:56

JHC,

I'm glad its not just me that feels this way. Things may well be pants, but its only by staying and fighting against the bad decisions do we stand any chance of improving the situation without an arse kicking by some mickey mouse military first.

augustus

9th Aug 2001, 21:54

JHC
I agree. If we've got to go then at least lets learn something from it. if we can't achieve it in the way their Lordships want then at least have the guts to say so in the PXR. It won't necessarily be fun but it will be what we, at the coal face, make it.

jockspice

9th Aug 2001, 23:19

JHC
Thanks for the support. Thought it was only me putting in sh*tty ROPs! :D It seems too many are happy to drip and not put their signature to it, then drip again over the same snags that they haven't even tried to change. As for those that say there is no point trying to change things, b*ll*cks!!!!
Try telling the whole truth instead of writing what others (of a higher rank perhaps) may want/expect to see. You may be surprised. At the very least you may get something to put on your cv to the airlines....... :p

ChristopherRobin

10th Aug 2001, 00:07

Well done bloke!

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country!"

All those with tartan slippers and briar pipes get over there with the conchies...

The rest of you get down with the home team and start cheering for the big win.

airbreak

10th Aug 2001, 01:56

Well said JHC. It is nice to hear something other than discussion over ATPLs. My best fun in this job has been going to the odd punch-up and it frustrates me no end watching others go off whilst I sit at my desk, despite the excitement of risking paper cuts. Choosing a life in the military has meant accepting the odd bit of hardship.

Anyway, I could ask you to pull up a sandbag and discuss the luxury of actually having light in tents, but that's not for here.

I think the need to train hard is summed up by the following:

"In war, there is no second prize for the runner-up" Omar Bradley
and

"History is littered with the wars which everyone knew would never happen." Enoch Powell

I shall now retreat into my staff job, although if anyone does want to swap, I'm sure I can dust off my flying suit and go to Oman for them...

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: airbreak ]

BEagle

10th Aug 2001, 12:08

I shall refrain from further comment re Saif Sareea 2 save noting that others have made valid points for, but mostly against. The concept of a large scale OOA is one thing, the execution being compromised by fiscal restraint as has been widely noted is quite another.

At the end of the day, remember that it is an EXERCISE, it is neither TTW nor an OPERATION. All participants will therefore be constrained by their own orders for peacetime flying; temptation to push the limits for whatever reason must not be allowed to happen.

And JHC - many of the participants have been away on detachments around the globe in support of real operations for so long that the prospect of yet another detachment, but for merely a peacetime exercise, is hardly surprisingly being viewed with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. Granted it will give those more used to Salisbury Plain, UK Military Training Areas etc, a bigger area in which to practise - but those who have been spending their time in the Balkans, Gulf, Turkey, Falklands, etc etc view things with a somewhat different eye!

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

Rude C'man

10th Aug 2001, 14:14

JHC well said my boy,nice to see someone with some good old fashioned values.
Go and enjoy yourselves people .. so it's a tent .. Batus(last year ) was the most enjoyable time i'd had at work for years,I wish I was going back to Oman .. smashing place . Say hi to the Gulf Air girls for me.

I can recommend the Al bustan and Intercon if anyone gets the chance. The Air France girls were v dirty at the Intercon in the 90's
:cool:

jockspice

10th Aug 2001, 15:11

Beagle
Chance would be a fine thing. We train for war - thats what we do. If that means coming out of an Op to go on Ex then so be it - won't these be the people with most to add to an Ex? Lend your current experience and "train hard, fight easy". Just don't turn up and gob off about how you should be home with your slippers and that you really are going to PVR, once you get home, honest. Might do some people good to stop thumping around at 130 kts and 20 ft with pax in the name of "operational necessity". ;)
As for limitations and constraint - was that ever a question on this thread? I thought it was mainly people whinging about doing their job. :p Flight safety is paramount in any Ex or Op, but the job still has to be done and troops and equipment still have to be delivered. Some people perhaps favour the FS card a bit quickly and a bit too often, in the sake of having a bit more time in their pit, air conditioned or not. By all means, if you aren't happy THEN SAY SO!! At least look outside the tent before you refuse to go out.
Before I attract a barrage of abuse, I have seen the above examples and have been dismayed and disappointed at the attitude and lack of professionalism displayed.
Anyway, get a tan if you can, try and learn something and hope we don't get extended/diverted etc. After all, that is life in the Forces. :D

Autorev

10th Aug 2001, 16:26

Rude C'man
thanks for the encouraging words!
Personally, I can't wait to try out all my shiny new kit that Cotswolds Camping have been good enough to sell me. I suppose it wouldn't be nearly so much fun if Betty had given it to us all gratis. One good point I suppose is that I won't be getting letters from stores, three days after I get back, threatening to scalp my first born if I don't return the kit by last week!

And think of the tans we'll all have for Chrimbo!

Can't wait me.....oh no my mistake....

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Autorev ]

padster

10th Aug 2001, 16:44

what is the point in going on this EXERCISE when we dont have the aircraft or man power to cover normal operations!!!! :mad:

padster

11th Aug 2001, 01:35

Bloody hell chill out JHC I was just stating the obvious for our less experienced military types, didnt realise I would get such an intense reply!!!! You should realise the military has been and will always be the same !!!!! :eek: :cool:

djwarren

12th Aug 2001, 20:18

Heard on the grape-vine that 2 chefs died of heat exhaustion the other day, somewhere in sunny Oman.

Surely if it's true, 'Duty of Care', Health and Safety at War, etc, etc, will be being buffed by some heinous conchy types who think these Arabian Sales Exercises aren't necessarily the best use of limited manpower?

eviltwin

15th Aug 2001, 06:50

I heard that they don't have enough light bulbs for one per tent (oh and they're short of bed spaces). The solution, head torches at the individuals expense. Good job that the troops are entiled to only 1 libary book between 4 per week, coz there won't be enough light to read 'em.
If you like camping so much you should've stayed in the brownies, and I don't mean AAC ;)

jockspice

15th Aug 2001, 14:10

Heard on the grape-vine that 2 chefs died of heat exhaustion the other day, somewhere in sunny Oman

If this is true, how did they get through the three stages without anyone noticing? Methinks the scaremongering machine has moved into high gear. :D :D
It's scorpions I'm worried about! (the six legged variety, not the tracked type) :p

Flatus Veteranus

15th Aug 2001, 19:59

If you don't like camping so much you should've joined the Brownies...

Eviltwin, many a true word... I thought I had finished with camping when I got chucked out of the boy scouts for smoking and (worse) using my lighter to light a camp fire. You don't have to train to live rough (except in the survival and E&E context), you just have to endure it, when necessary. And It takes a lot of convincing me that, having paid for squillions of yards of concrete, and tonnes of bulk fuel installations, and all the engineering and avionic support, they cannot afford anything more substantial than tents for people to live in. There is no virtue in pigging it; the Treaasury civil servants would not tolerate it for a minute! Keep whingeing chaps!

Autorev

16th Aug 2001, 02:43

FV,
I like your style, Sir!

Thud_and_Blunder

16th Aug 2001, 03:27

Tents and aircrew. The Warsaw Pact had an interesting spin on this - pilots (esp FJ) couldn't possibly be allowed to fly unless they'd spent the night asleep in a proper building and had a medical inspection before getting airborne. Saw this for myself on the first UK visit to Drawsko Pomorski (sp?) in Poland, where the deployment site for the nearest Fitter base was located. All the ancillary/admin/ATC/whoever lived in tents or holes in the ground, but the pilots had a white-painted 3-storey building in the middle of the training area.

Now, if I'd been a WP pilot, the balloon had just gone up and there was a risk of a visit from the boys at Upper Heyford or Hereford, the very last place you'd find me would have been in the only white-painted, 3-storey building in the middle of a military training area...

Sorry, FV Beags et al, I'll just have to weather the smelly-SH brickbats and disagree with you on this one.

jockspice

16th Aug 2001, 04:30

Come the day of the race, in a real war/conflict/fight/disagreement, buildings have "target" written on them, so I'm quite happy to continue FOBing for the practice. :D
I suppose it is the same reason we dont wear our wings on dpm - it defeats the purpose. So why exercise without an inkling of realism? Hotels are all well and good, but can we always count on HNS and hard accom? I dont think so. So, please, enough of the "I dont need to live in a tent and I dont want to" comments. It makes us all look childish, spoilt and inneffective at what we do, or are supposed to do. Any civvies reading this thread must wonder what the hell they are spending their tax money on. So, forgive me if I don't join the ranks of the hotel lovers who are quite vociferous upon this thread. It's a stick I don't want to be tarred with and an immpression I don't want to give to the public. :mad:

DrSyn

16th Aug 2001, 07:44

T&B, I don't know how that place in Poland is spelt either. However, at a guess, at least 4 of those vowels are superfluous!

hillsie

16th Aug 2001, 22:57

RAF boys - If you had joined the ranks of the senior service you could all exercise in air conditioned luxury onboard one of Her Majesties fine RFA cruise liners. Fitted with all 1960's mod cons and complete with vibrating furniture. Everyday is a luxury in the Royal Navy. Has anybody got any idea why a north sea ASW squadron is exercising in the Gulf? Bodgit and Scarper planners have been at work me thinks!

Oggin Aviator

17th Aug 2001, 01:43

DP is there an echo to this thread ....?
(see Page 3)

......... suppose thats why you went pinging ! :) :)

hillsie

17th Aug 2001, 22:38

Oggin Aviator!
You're right! Didn't fancy those long back to back front line tours that you boys seem to get either! Besides - had a go at fast jet and it all seemed a little too much like all work and no play! Rotary ta re, the seaking's the girl for me, she ditches so gracefully, rotary ta re ta re! See you around the bazaars.

Oggin Aviator

18th Aug 2001, 01:58

Keep Smiling and remember - combat cabbage collection is an integral part of resupply at sea (and I dont mean VIPTAX's) :eek: :eek:

Rene

21st Aug 2001, 05:08

Just perussing this forum and had to laugh at the hypocrisy of 'the aircrew' That's right the lonely voice of an engineer! Using flight safety as an arguement for staying in hotels or other suitable accommodation is beyond belief. How many times have 'grow-bags' crewed in under the influence? Of course it doesn't really matter when the budget is picking up the tab for a very comfortable hotel room in North America. Flight safety, never heard of it, not over the sound of the imprest officer handing out my rates! We all benefit from the good dets, but take the rough with the smooth and earn your keep like the rest of the world.

Hugs and Kisses, enjoy Oman, I did; the Holiday Inn was fab! Unfortunately not on this det.....it's not good enough! ;)

stbd beam

21st Aug 2001, 13:06

Rene, try posting that thread again after you're sat in the plane of your choice, on an important trip, and the pilot walks on, looking like death warmed up 'cos he got a crap nights sleep at the side of the runway, or he was kept awake by some other disturbance. I imagine you wouldn't sound so smug then my old chap, when your life is at risk.

Rene

21st Aug 2001, 16:08

SB, sorry to offend, but the point is that when everything is sweet flight safety is a secondary consideration. We have all seen sorties go ahead regardless of crew 'fatigue' or 'snags' with the a/c. I'm sure you're aware that this scenario is very common. It is something we all accept, engineers and aircrew alike, but don't bring flight safety in as a point of arguement when it is clearly flouted on too many other occasions. You're right my confidence would falter if I spied the pilot looking like crap. I would be equally concerned if I witnessed an engineer with the same symptoms completing a hydraulic union for a control surface and you have air-con in your tent.

Although I'm not on this det' I have been in similar circumstances and I don't remember any moaning, except from the odd bad apple, and that apple was on both sides of the fence!

I'm not looking for enemies, but the same boat comes to mind....sink or swim, the choice is yours. :rolleyes:

djwarren

21st Aug 2001, 22:17

Unofficial death-toll on this ex is now 9 (and 2 squaddie chefs did die of heat stroke). Everybody has to be worried about safety on a junket like this one.

It's OK though as the budget is for no more than 25 dead and one crashed fast-jet before questions start being asked!!

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: Mr Rotavator ]

Chox Away

22nd Aug 2001, 23:53

The Gorilla -

Are there any trains in the desert, or is it the wrong type of sand?

Choo choo :D

Met-Loada

23rd Aug 2001, 23:03

Having just read thro' all previous posted on the subj I now understand why i get so much banter at work! Whingeing grobags basically! Hotac blah blah, noise blah blah, climate control blah blah.

As a lightblue job on temporary loan to Pongo & Co, the boot is on the other foot for me. I have some recent-ish experience (2.5 yrs in total) of the whole peninsular area in question and generally, though not exclusively, from the comfort of 1 Hotac or another and taking in 1 or 2 excellent cocktail parties compliments of HMS Various!

Unlike some previous correspondents however, I am prepared to take the rough (current tour) with the smooth (previous tours ) and while not excited at the prospect of my stint on SSII, I accept my return to the area with the brown jobs on SSII as part of the JOB!

I have 2 useful suggestions for those not happy with their lot on SSII:

1. Try the Thumrait Motel just outside camp gates for anyone not happy with canvas - a fine estab it is too!

2. Try those excellent foam earplugs the truckie mates are so quick to hand out down the back of Albert while they enjoy proper headgear and crewmeals etc!!

Bottom line guys, stop f***ing whingeing and show some respect for the few.

"Talk to the hand coz the face ain't listening"

M-L :mad:

Incipient Sinner

24th Aug 2001, 13:22

If the death toll is nine already, I can't wait till it all kicks off for real next week.

The two latest ones just show you shouldn't go playing around with snakes, apparently they're dangerous.

EESDL

25th Aug 2001, 18:20

Met-Loader
Why do you not take your own ear defenders?

You are very welcome to come up the front and put my headset on
Whilst you're at it, you can do the radios, flying and navigating...then you can eat your re-heated plate of sheet, that's meant to constitute a meal, balancing it on your lap because to eat eat infront of the pax would be torture, remembering of course that we will be doing it all again the next day/night......
give me a hammock and a good book anyday!

6nandneutral

26th Aug 2001, 02:20

Met-Loader
I've done the (Hotel from Hell) Thumrait Motel and it was the worst nights sleep I have ever had, I would like to know how they manage to get so many lumpy bits into such a thin mattress. By the way Fat Alberts oven only does 5 meals at a time and even then we are lucky if we get one as the oven usually goes t*ts up. So top tip if you do get into the hotel from hell take a camp bed or an air bed. It is air conditioned but you have to switch that off as it is too noisy..........enjoy. :)

Junior Jet Club

26th Aug 2001, 12:53

Also just come back from 18 hrs in theatre. Shambolic cannot describe the setup @ the mo!
Tents for visiting aircrew? What tents?
Comms? What comms?
Enough gnd equip? Where?!

Had to chuckle at the Thumrait Motel though. Must be the only hotel in the Middle East where you sleep in your own sleeping bag on the bed (Have YOU seen how dirty the sheets are?) and wash the following morning from the bottle of water from the local shop as the shower is either:
a: missing its head
b: exploding with ants
c: or has an unturned bucket with a blackish 'substance' underneath it in the middle of the cubicle!

Very reasonable food though.

Just a few thoughts... :D

cloudybeer

26th Aug 2001, 23:44

Latest gossip from Thumrait is that water is available for showers, it's just the actual shower hardware that's missing from the equation.... and the solution?....bring your own! Just gotta hope that drinking water is available too...

stbd beam

27th Aug 2001, 23:12

Met-loada, you guys just don't get it do ya ? PEOPLE FLY PLANES, NO SLEEP = DANGEROUS. No whinging involved, common sense innit!

SARBoy Loser

27th Aug 2001, 23:35

what's a desert, is it the thing you eat after dinner?

Now where's my nice mug of cocoa :cool:

ps

if any one sees a wee 'jock bird' chinny pilot, send her my regards!!

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: SARBoy Loser ]

Gripper

28th Aug 2001, 02:45

C.Robin. Come on, stop verballing the guys. They are only trying to make a point.I think we have all been there in some way, shape or form. Let's try to work together, rather then give it the "My firm is better than yours" line. Just a thought.

STONKERS

28th Aug 2001, 21:57

Rather than turning this into a slanging match, why don't we use PPRUNE for something constructive (for a change). A bunch of us are off to SS2 and their ain't a thing we can do about it, except make the most of a bad job. I am from a FJ outfit who have not undertaken a deployment as austere as this for a long time. Fortunately the high dilution rates mean the boys are pretty keen and willing to learn. We would appreciate any advice on how to make life a bit more bearable in tent city. :)

Guinevere

28th Aug 2001, 22:59

Stonkers, good attitude me old. For starters

Pair of sandals, velcro type you can actually walk in.
Head torch, if rumours of no bulbs are true.
Shaving mirror
Sleeping bag liner, or old quilt cover
Plenty of anti crotch-rot powder.
Floppy hat.
American camp cot or equivalent.
Liquid laundry stuff, in a tube.
For a long stay the collapsable wardrobes are good value (cue banter from grunts who exist to be uncomfortable)
If you have the room, a real pillow (honest)
Enjoy and don't forget sense of humour.

STONKERS

29th Aug 2001, 01:36

Guinevere thank you. Has anyone been to Thumrait recently? If so how cold is it at night? We've been issued the new thick sleeping bags but the consensus is that they may be too warm.

newshound

29th Aug 2001, 04:55

From this morning's FT:

War-game fantasy in the desert
By Alexander Nicoll
Published: August 28 2001 16:11GMT | Last Updated: August 28 2001 17:08GMT

In October, the forces of Fantasyland will launch an amphibious attack on Oman. Battle will rage in the desert for two weeks. It may be a war-game, but for British troops sweltering in the desert, it will be real enough.

The £93m ($134m) deployment will be Britain's biggest exercise since the mid-1980s. Defence chiefs consider it so important that they are prepared to devote 24,000 British troops and large numbers of ships and aircraft in spite of extensive commitments in the Balkans and elsewhere.

It has already begun, with 2,500 troops now preparing in Oman, and ships packed with armoured vehicles and other equipment at sea.

The aim is to ensure Britain has the rapid reaction capabilities set out in the 1998 defence review, in which reforms were aimed to make the forces more deployable and flexible.

This month has seen them in practice, with Britain contributing more than half of the hastily assembled Nato force in Macedonia.

The exercise assumes added importance with Britain playing a leading role in the European Union's plan to have a 60,000-strong force available for quick use.

Called Saif Sareea 2 (Swift Sword), it will see a combination of British and Omani forces on both sides. It is the brainchild of a small team at the Permanent Joint Headquarters (PJHQ), a bunker in Northwood, north of London, from which all British overseas deployments are overseen.

Web-based software and communications have enabled the war-gamers to devise something much more complex than just a punch-up in the desert.

Senior commanders will have to handle political interplay with ministers, the United Nations and allied governments as they plot their campaigns.

At their disposal will be not just real troops but also cyber-units. When these are sent into action, the opposing side will not know at first whether they are real or fictitious. And then there will be the desert battle itself, with armoured forces in Challenger 2 tanks attempting to outflank each other until the umpires step in.

"It will be a command post exercise, a simulated exercise and a live exercise all at the same time," says Wing Commander Dick Forsyth, the exercise co-ordinator. "It is a bit of a Rubik's cube."

The PJHQ team has written a detailed "road to war", in which the fictitious Alawham (the Arabic for fantasy) country, actually the central coastal part of Oman, makes a grab for oilfields to the north and strikes an alliance with a notional island nation to the east. A UN-sponsored ceasefire is broken, and Britain goes to Oman's aid. Troops on both sides will be commanded by some of the most senior officers of the two countries' armed forces.

Commanders will get their orders from a basketball gym at Shaa'fa in northern Oman, from where the exercise will be controlled. Wing Cdr Forsyth says with relish the "road to war" documents are riddled with inconsistencies intended to set up an intense dialogue between Shaa'fa and the commanders in the field - testing officers' communication skills as well as their patience.

The PJHQ team have also devised a series of "ground-truths", events injected into the action that test officers' ability to manage information - for example, a supply route blockage on which information dribbles out by different routes, such as media reports.

Supporting the action will be some of the services' newest equipment, including the Royal Air Force's new C-17 transport aircraft, and the latest in digital technology: an "electronic bird-table" displaying the action for exercise controllers.

Commanders are encouraged to consider how their actions will be reported in the media; the likely effect of the actions on fragile political balances; and moves towards resolution after the conflict.

Wing Cdr Forsyth says: "We are trying to make it a cerebral activity for the higher commanders. They have got to be good at the military skills, and good politically and diplomatically as well."

trailfinder

29th Aug 2001, 12:53

Stonks,

Have not been (but am going in Sept). Data I ahve seen claims the average air temp at 00:01 in Thumrait is 24C (at end of september). Think I'll take my own bag.

The Gorilla

29th Aug 2001, 13:43

To those of who you are going on Safe Diaroheaa 2 and have had your CS95 dipped in Peripel 10 (Mosquito repellant).

Peripel 10 contains Nonyl Phenol Ethoxylate which is a chemical that has been reported to cause harmful effects on the human endocrine system (prolonged exposure).Data sheets containing the ingredients are available from Clothing Stores, do your own research on the net if you don't believe me.

I do not believe the benefits outweigh the potential health risks. As the Gulf War demonstrated, it is not wise to assume that everything being offered is necessarily safe to use!! :(
Nee Naaah...The next train arriving...

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]

Chinese Vic

29th Aug 2001, 16:17

The 'inconsistencies' the good Wg Cdr refers to are probably more to do with the fact that the Ex has been planned on the back of a fag packet!

Guinevere

29th Aug 2001, 21:45

Stonks

I refer you to the sleeping bag liner from my last post. PS all the above advice offered without any real desert experience, just plenty of time living out of a green bag.

Much maligned as this Ex has been, for many of the pers involved it will be good experience that might stand them in good stead in the future.

Enjoy

Chinese Vic

Hope you don't bump into the RM chap who has been working his nuts off with a pencil and a fag packet!

Flatus Veteranus

29th Aug 2001, 21:53

Gorilla

Cannot understand current abbreviations and jargon. What the heck is "your CS95" that has to be dipped in "mosquito" repellant"? Is it the new Cool word for your "d**k"? and is "Mosquito repellant" the current euphemism for some sort of anti-VD prophylactic?

Good luck all you boy scouts! Watch out for Scorpions. Shake out your sleeping bag before you climb into it, ditto your shoes in the morning. :)

Up Very Gently

30th Aug 2001, 01:34

I heard from a reliable source that something like 10 bodies have been flown back to BZZ from the middle east since Feb - accidents, RTA's etc. I'm not sure if this can be true, however, it is from someone in the know. Anyone know more?

UVG

MATZ

30th Aug 2001, 02:32

Allegedly, 9 have died in RTA, 2 chefs have died from heat stroke (and they drank too much water and wash the salt out of their system) and 2 from snake bites. That’s the rumour on the street in Oxon. I’ll find out more on Friday, as I arrive then for my 12 week sun tan det (not!)

Incidentally, there are 3 very squashed vehicles sat at Marchwood Military Port as a warning to what could happen if you don’t stay alert whilst driving.

Read a letter from Oman today that states the biggest worry at present from the commanders is the poor driving standards of everyone (us and them!). Defensive driving is the way to stay alive.

Back from the arse end of nowhere at teh end of Nov. :cool:

Ali Barber

30th Aug 2001, 12:21

I've been in Oman for a few years now and watched the fag packet planning. Unfortunately, PJHQ didn't ask the experts (Jag force) who deploy here each year for any advice, but I suppose they have to train to plan from scratch rather than take the easy answers. I just hope they have 3 years to plan the next short-notice live deployment.

My understanding at the beginning of the planning was that the aim was to prove that HMG could still deploy a war-fighting force after all the cuts in recent years. So, just like the first Army deployment to Bosnia, the aim was to get there and, once you arrived, the aim had been acheived and you could go home. Having gone to all that trouble though, you may as well do something before you go home - like flying, topping up the sun tan, etc.

I wish you could all be put up in 5-star hotels, but the infrastructure just doesn't exist here. Oman is one of the poorer Gulf states (in comparison - it certainly isn't broke!) but its military is probably the most professional in the region. It is very closely based on the Brit system and hasn't been affected by all the political correctness and ass-covering attitudes that seem to have been adopted by the Brit forces. Speak to one of the Jag mates if you want an idea of what they are like.

As people, they are the nicest in the region by far. They are friendly, have a wicked sense of humour, they like the Brits and are very tolerant of us. If you've been to Saudi, then you have no idea of what Oman is like because it is chalk and cheese to compare them.

Finally, regarding the fatalaties and weather questions, I have asked several people who should know and I have been told that there have been no fatatalities so far. Only one serious injury involving broken legs when a truck overturned (no other vehicle was involved - it just didn't make it around the bend in the road. As for the weather in Thumrait, the coast there near Salalah is affected by drizzle from the Monsoon but it doesn't reach Thumrait. It does get windy there so there will be some blowing sand, but the Monsoon should end about the time the exercise starts so the only people to be affected (hopefully) will be the early deployments. Temperatures should be low to mid 30s by day and low to mid 20s by night.

Its got to be done - so make the best of it and enjoy the flying.

Autorev

30th Aug 2001, 20:07

Bit last minute this one, but....
Has anyone got any top tips in the way of kit to take that isn't obvious?
I got a copy of an email suggesting (amongst other things:
Coat hangers
Talcalm powder
Factor 25 Suncream (issue stuff not up to the job)
Thermarest

Any other suggestions?

Tiger_mate

30th Aug 2001, 20:21

Autorev: That is a real invite for a funny, but I will refrain. Having spent some time recently in a desert albeit not Oman, I would advise:

Hearing plugs x lots, a pillow, Eye shade/cover ala airline issue, flip flops, sheet sleeping bag for daytime use, Autan bug repelant, Waspeze, sun factor various, camelback water tank, civvie cap/bush-hat,

Think about what your day will entail on/off duty, browse a couple of "I walked around the desert" and survival type books, you will soon get the drift.

Wokka mate Jellers went into the desert with a 1960s safari suit filling his bergan and survived, but only for a week. The arabs dont wear shemags cause there trendy, they were them cause they are F*ing useful in that location. :cool:

Al Herbs

2nd Sep 2001, 16:04

Ali Barber hit the spot boys. (Hi bigbits!)The weather's good, the beaches are great and the flying is better. If anyone from the Lincolnshire AD mafia are coming to Fantasy Island I may just be able to deliver your ice cream cone personally if you give me a bell.
I've been here a few years now and seen one (very small) scorpion which I squashed when I accidentally sat on it, seen 2 snakes which did a runner like mud-movers with a sniff of AD in the area and one camel spider which only woke up because somebody poked a pointy stick in its hollow. There are a few nibbly insects but no malaria. Just bring some sun-block and keep sipping water, bottled or tap (it's all potable here).
As for the alleged casualties - well I have only heard of the one referred to by Ali Barber and three soldiers buying it in a private vehicle driving down the Salalah escarpment road in the monsoon hill fog.