United pilot arrested at LHR [Archive]

Jox

10th Nov 2009, 23:29

I accept that this is rumours and news.

Shiftkeying has made an intelligent post; Court case at Uxbridge Magistrates on the 20th. Case is unlikely to be dealt with there and will most probably be referred to the Crown Court to be heard at a date and time to be determined in the future.

Arrested - Innocent

Charged - Innocent

On bail - Innocent

Convicted - Guilty!

Speculation - Unhelpful and destroys reputations & families.

Please can we wait for all self righteous assassinations and speculations until our colleague has been dealt with by the appropriate authority in accordance with the law. That is his right, until such time that a case has been proved.

We have all seen pages on similar incidents only to find out that in the end that something untoward, unexplained or subsequently proved has resulted in no conviction in accordance with the law.

I urge you all, keep your powder dry until an outcome is apparent. If he is acquitted, no problem then, if he is found guilty then you are welcome to your opinions, until then :oh:.

Jox

lomapaseo

11th Nov 2009, 02:24

I see that CNN actually named the pilot ... for what purpose I don't really understand.

SDFlyer

11th Nov 2009, 03:02

Wouldn't a pint of shandy, or a half of Watneys, threaten to put you over that limit? Is it the same with GA in the U.K. I'm wondering?

Fatfish

11th Nov 2009, 06:38

If indeed he was intoxicated enough for a UA ground staff to notice, then the copilot needs the sack.

sharksandwich

11th Nov 2009, 06:51

Actually, "drunk" is a very misleading word. You do not have to be "drunk" (ie poor judgement, loss of psychomotor control) to fail a breathalyser test, you just need a trace of alcohol in your blood stream.

The only sensible thing is to not drink at all if you have an early start the next day. A small price to pay to keep your job.

PA38

11th Nov 2009, 06:56

In the run up to x-mas drink drivers are a targeted, get them off the roads we all cry, but if your a pilot you are innocent!!!!!!
If he has provided a sample which has been over the proscribed limit, then he will have been charged.
The rest is just formality it's the way it works for everyone even pilots!!!!!!!

L337

11th Nov 2009, 07:12

In the run up to x-mas drink drivers are a targeted, get them off the roads we all cry, but if your a pilot you are innocent!!!!!!

PA38 have you been at the bottle as well?

No one has suggested it is ok for a pilot to operate over the limit.

I shudder. This thread is already degenerating into the same mess the others have

rottenray

11th Nov 2009, 07:28

Any chance we can just link this thread to the interminable discussions on identical headlines past, and then close it, so we don't have to go round the same carousel again? :rolleyes:No, not really.

Wouldn't forgive a taxi driver, a bus driver, a camel driver, found to have too much alcohol in his/her blood.

No, the tests aren't conclusive.

Yes, they are sometimes inaccurate.

But, usually, as in DUI stops, there is a reason somebody gets "pulled over."

Can a regular drinker fly a plane?

Surely.

But, do we want someone who can "function" half-snockered at the pointy end?

I'm not convicting these boys without a jury, but can we please, please, once in a while assume that there must have been a valid reason for the event?

I personally don't fly commercial any oftener than I have to, and this is one of the reasons.

Flying commercial at one time was a pretty good guarantee of safety, of placing your butt into the loving, caring hands of consummate professionals.

Now, not so much.

It seems, these days, that boarding a flight means you're a member of a certain "risk pool."

Is it that we hear of this more often through better/faster reporting, or are instances of "don't give a poop" attitude issues becoming more frequent?

Should have written "more aggressive/faster" reporting, but all y'all get the idea.

Since when has it become fashionable to take 150+ lives for a ride when your condition to do so might even be a weensy bit in quesion?

(I already know the answer - since idiot SLF are willing to fly based on absolute lowest ticket $$)

Sometimes, one begins to look forward to the fully automated cockpit, with a dog who bites the man who tries to touch the controls.

Basil

11th Nov 2009, 09:04

PA38,
Interests:
Aviation, BEER, electronics, BEER , computers & BEER
Really? :hmm:

rottenray,
I personally don't fly commercial any oftener than I have to, and this is one of the reasons.

Flying commercial at one time was a pretty good guarantee of safety, of placing your butt into the loving, caring hands of consummate professionals.

Now, not so much.
Well, to be blunt, I do not agree with you but perhaps that's because I've been around a bit longer.
Stick to the majors with a track record and, if that doesn't suit then, like a couple of tearful, fear of flying women I saw on a TV documentary on board an elective holiday flight, perhaps you should consider land or sea transport.

postman23

11th Nov 2009, 09:14

I see that CNN actually named the pilot ... for what purpose I don't really understand.

To attract viewers perhaps?

postman23

11th Nov 2009, 09:20

I'm not convicting these boys without a jury, but can we please, please, once in a while assume that there must have been a valid reason for the event?

I personally don't fly commercial any oftener than I have to, and this is one of the reasons.

Since when has it become fashionable to take 150+ lives for a ride when your condition to do so might even be a weensy bit in quesion?@Rottenray
Lighten up man, you say you don't convict, yet in the next line you do. Also you admit that most of the time there is no fire as there is no smoke. You obviously are not a pilot. ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME is the second lesson in flight school.

To your other point: in days gone by, a glass of red wine was tolerated and considered the norm with on board dining at certain airlines. If you are looking for blood on the wall keep on going but at least admit that you are just looking for sensation with that BS post. :yuk:

Need I mention that I am commenting your words and not you as a person or can we take that as a given these days?

PS: it is this misplaced trust in so-called authorities, that more often than not lack qualified staff and standards, that causes the herd to become unsettled. Glued to the box, blindly following the 'news'. Forced make-believe crap after a thousand repetitons written on the blackboard.

I shall respect the teacher.
I shall respect the teacher.
I shall respect the teacher.
I shall respect the teacher.
I shall respect the teacher.

NOT... :}

call100

11th Nov 2009, 09:25

perhaps you should consider land or sea transport.
Maybe not such a good idea!! Everyone's at it!!

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Lincolnshire | Drunk ship crash captain jailed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7074944.stm)

Exclusive: Train driver quits job after police breathalyser test - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/08/04/exclusive-train-driver-quits-job-after-police-breathalyser-test-86908-21569889/)

lpokijuhyt

11th Nov 2009, 10:23

I'm thrilled everytime I hear of a pilot getting fired for being drunk (probably really hung-over is the real reason in 99 percent of these cases). Why? Simple. It means that (us) redundant pilots move one person closer to making a living again. So, drink up boys! Cheers. :}

Doctor Cruces

11th Nov 2009, 11:33

Call me an innocent at large, accuse me of not understanding, call me what you like, flame me if you like BUT,

I don't want anyone even whiffing slightly of alcahol at the pointy end when I fly or when one is passing overhead.

:hmm:

Doc C

Legalapproach

11th Nov 2009, 11:51

SD Flyer

Wouldn't a pint of shandy, or a half of Watneys, threaten to put you over that limit? Is it the same with GA in the U.K. I'm wondering?

Yes - the limit applies to any pilot regardless of the type of licence they hold. The law really intends to create a zero alcohol rule. The small amount it allows for is intended to deal with very small amounts of alcohol that naturally occur in some individuals as a result of production by the body as opposed to consumption.

Watneys - I wonder if that party seven can is still doing the student party circuit?

AnthonyGA

11th Nov 2009, 12:35

This sort of problem can be avoided by simply not drinking alcohol.

Each time alcohol comes up here, I see an endless series of rationalizations, arguments, and apologies that create the very distinct impression that a lot of pilots drink regularly and think it's okay as long as they are "legal." It creates a very poor impression of pilots as a profession (assuming that the pilots making these posts here are truly pilots). It creates the impression that a lot of pilots are just barely legal while they are in the cockpit. That is not reassuring. Surely there must be some pilots who believe that the only acceptable level of alcohol is zero alcohol; why don't they speak up?

I don't want anyone who has been drinking flying my plane, either. I don't care if he's legal or not. I don't want him to have any impairing drugs at all in his system. If he can't stay away from alcohol long enough to be completely clean when he walks onto the flight deck, he needs to find a different job. To me, there is nothing the least bit admirable about managing to stay just below the legal limit. In fact, pushing that limit is irresponsible and reckless. The only safe limit is zero.

I'm sure that nobody would be apologizing or rationalizing if this pilot had heroin in his system. But I suspect that's because heroin is illegal generally (no legal limit), and because most pilots don't take heroin and thus do not imagine themselves being arrested for it. The irony is that, illegal or not, opioids produce less impairment than alcohol, particularly at therapeutic doses. But while many people here apparently drug themselves with ethanol on a regular basis (otherwise they would not manifest the immediate knee-jerk objections to anyone being arrested for using it), few of them take heroin regularly, so their attitudes are different, even if the objective facts and risks are not.

It is possible to live a happy, drug-free life. Which is more fun: flying among the clouds, or getting drunk? If you were forced to choose, which would you prefer?

weasil

11th Nov 2009, 12:40

Anthony you would love the Chicago Tribune story this morning then. They interviewed another UAL pilot for the story and on the subject of drinking while on a layover he said "It's the thing to do".
This story got a front page treatment here in United's hometown.

max alt

11th Nov 2009, 12:48

why don't we breathalyse the brussels MP's that made the law after they have had a good lunch on return to the chamber.I remember not so long ago Air france pilots having wine with their inflight meal.And while were about it close the bloody subsidised bar in the commons.Whats good for the goose and all that.
I am not suggesting for one moment that alchohol and transport ops make good bedfellows,they don't full stop.What i find interesting is the desire to increase flying duty periods leading to excessive fatigue by the same people.We had a limit that worked well for many years and was rarely abused. I work on the principle if it isn't broke don't fix it.I cannot think of one accident in public transport ops that was attributed to pilots being over the alchohol limit.Fatigue,now that's a different story.

Misterredmist

11th Nov 2009, 13:04

Anthony GA:

I don't think its a case of pontificating to pilots not to drink alcohol -
that would never happen -

common sense dictates that they should arrive at their place of work sober - and in a fit state to fly.

I am sure pilots who have not had any drink within 24hours of a flight but have been otherwise "under the weather" due to a virus or bug - have taken the controls of aeroplanes when not fit to do so.

At the end of the day - there is a very low limit on alcohol - which I personally , as SLF, am very happy with : everybody knows the rules and the risks in breaking them.

And the numbers will always add up to some people over stepping those limits.

In this case, it appears that the pilot was fingered by his own staff - if they were correct to do so - well done to them. We'll find out in due course.

However, it is easy to criticise the pilot concerned, but , if he has made the mistake of having too much to drink, what choices did he have?
Does he "throw the sicky" and get rosta'd for the next day or whatever happens to pilots in such circumstances may be someone on here can enlighten me ? What are the consequences for him taking that option?

Bare in mind, he's a long way out from home, and can't exactly "leave his car and get a cab home" - so , I guess, there will have been self-imposed pressure to get back "home" - get on the flight deck and get over the pond. He's also in a foriegn country - does that imply as much as a threat as it does if you are on "home" soil ? I am not sure...... would be interested to know what the professionals think.

I am not trying to justify the pilots' actions if he has had too much to drink - just trying to ascertain what pressures would still take him to the flight deck when the obvious option is to "no-show"....

Handfly

11th Nov 2009, 15:53

Every time that subjects like this arrive, there is a lot of anghuish and little fact.

The pilot is over the limit!
Yes he is. But there is a significant difference between cultures.

In the US of A a pilot is over the limit if he test 40mg.
But if he submits himself to a rehabilitation process he can redeem his licence.

In Europe he is over the limit if he tests 20 Mg and there is no help - just loss of a job et al!

How does this affect one?

Well arrive in LHR - have a drink before going to bed. And you are clear as far as America is concerned.
As far as Eurpe is concerned - you are gambling with you life.

How do you equate all of this with several studies which say that the effect of 10 hours duty against the circadian rythem produces a perfoemance detriment equal to 60 mg of alcohol?

If we want the safety most of the contributers insist on - no flying beyond 10 hours?

The Europen law was intended to be ZERO booze - but the machine could not measure that!
So the regulators settled for the lowest the thing could measure - 20mg

Think about the effects of a zero rating.

bjcc

11th Nov 2009, 16:12

Handfly

Sorry, but thats not correct. Both screening and evidential breath test machines will register BAC from zero upwards.
There are a number of Countries in Europe that have a zero BAC for driving, and these machines are used as evidence in those countries.
The reason why a blood sample is taken is, even though the legislation in the UK provides for breath to be used there is an agreement between the CAA and ACPO that blood will be the used to determine the reading.
That works very much in the favour of those affected, in that it takes around an hour between time of arrest and time of blood being taken. In that time, those who are close to the limit at time of arrest, stand a more than good chance of going below the limit. In effect, it allows for them to take it as a wake up call, those who are way over, well, it was their decision to drink, no one forces anyone to do so.

cwatters

11th Nov 2009, 16:25

Quite a few things give false positives on breath tests. Some aren't obvious.. Allways ask for a blood test..

Using asthma inhalers...
Using asthma inhalers can give false positive results in breath tests -- Bosch 324 (7340): 756 -- BMJ (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/324/7340/756/e)

Low cal diet....
False-positive breath-alcohol test after a ketogenic diet (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18547798)

"bread ice cream" (whatever that is)...
DUI breath-alcohol machines give false positives - DUI laws lawyers and information about drunk driving at DUI Colorado Law (http://duicoloradolaw.com/dui-60-DUI-breath-alcohol-machines-give-false-positives)

but beware... Wikipedia says that the breathaliser over reads in 23% of people so presumably it under reads in 77% of people? eg the blood test will probably come back higher?

Breathalyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathalyzer)

Interestingly it also says..

Any number of other products found in the environment or workplace can also cause erroneous BAC results. These include compounds found in lacquer, paint remover, celluloid, gasoline, and cleaning fluids, especially ethers, alcohols, and other volatile compounds

So perhaps jet fumes?

AlpineSkier

11th Nov 2009, 16:48

I also read that it was UA groundstaff who reported the pilot.

Can anyone tell me why they would do that rather than just preventing him from flying ? Are there any legal ramifications i.e. BAA rules ( or whatever ) saying that it is obligatory to inform police in such circumstances, even though they had the means to stop him proceeding to the plane ?

kappa

11th Nov 2009, 18:53

USA Today reports: Media across the USA and the United Kingdom continue to update the story about the United pilot who was arrested on drinking charges just before he was to fly a trans-Atlantic flight from London to Chicago.

The Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2723536/Boozing-pilot-held-on-plane.html), one of London's tabloid newspapers, offers this account: "The pilot of a passenger jet was dramatically arrested shortly before take-off at Heathrow Airport after cops were told he had been drinking by the chief steward. The crew member had a massive row with the United Airlines captain as he prepared his Boeing 777 for a flight from London to Chicago. The plane's doors were re-opened and cops boarded Flight 949 in front of stunned passengers. Officers breathalysed the American pilot and arrested him after his reading was over the alcohol limit."

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226803/Drunk-United-Airlines-pilot-arrested-Heathrow-minutes-flight-Chicago.html) of London writes "a member of the cabin crew who reported him to police said (the pilot) had allegedly barricaded himself in the cockpit for over an hour before police convinced him to come out." A Heathrow spokesman tells the Daily Mail that the pilot "was reported to police by United Airlines staff. I believe departure was imminent."

kappa

11th Nov 2009, 19:07

I see that CNN actually named the pilotHis name and residence city have been included in numerous newspaper stories reporting that United has suspended him.

Tri-To-Start

11th Nov 2009, 19:11

.02 is the equivalent of a man having half a beer. That's hardly drunk unless this person had a very low tolerance to alcohol. I'm curious what set of actions triggered the chief steward to turn him in?

The only scenario I can think of is he really tied one on the night before and was observed by the steward at a restaurant or hotel bar.

I wonder if the 24hr bottle to throttle rule is even enough time to slip under the .02 limit?

I don't see how .02 could seriously impair a pilot unless it was preceeded by a major bout of drinking and a massive hangover which the steward thought was a threat to the flight.

Does anyone know the rate that an average man burns off alcohol. How many drinks 12 hours previous would result in a residual level of .02?

El Grifo

11th Nov 2009, 19:27

I used to shoot aerial stuff, flying out of Edinburgh Turnhouse, as it was then.

Never knew what the best time to book the flight was.

Before the pilot had a drink, or after when he was appreciably steadier.

The guy ended up flying into a hill whilst flying up to Glenrothes to fuel up with cheaper stuff.

Took a student down with him as well sadly.

That was then, this is now.

airman13

11th Nov 2009, 19:30

cnn bbc skynews reuters francepress.............they have the same mum..........hm..........

green granite

11th Nov 2009, 19:34

.02 is the equivalent of a man having half a beer. That's hardly drunk unless this person had a very low tolerance to alcohol. I'm curious what set of actions triggered the chief steward to turn him in?

Why are you assuming the level was .02? That is merely the level at which an offence is committed, he may have been way over that, no level has been reported.

Tri-To-Start

11th Nov 2009, 20:00

Yes, you're right. I re-read the article. No actual level was reported.

mseyfang

11th Nov 2009, 20:24

Tri-to-Start, I believe generally used the rate of burnoff is .015 per hour. Thus, if one was .15 at one point, it would take 10 hours to metabolize to zero. However, that number varies depending upon the physiology of the individual. One can easily see that in cases of sufficiently high BAC, 12 hours is not enough time to get down to .04 or below.

Legalapproach

11th Nov 2009, 20:41

The average person gets rid of alcohol at the rate of roughly one unit per hour - equiv to about 1/2 pint normal strength beer (proper beer - bitter) however, this is extremely variable and depends upon a number of factors such as body weight, metabolic rate, whether a person has eaten or not and if so what. It will also depend upon the rate and quantity over which the alcohol has been consumed. I have seen numerous back calculations carried out and the range is quite wide.

During less PC days I once attended a lawyers v cops christmas charity quiz held in a police station bar (since closed by a Chief Constable with no sense of fun). One of the events of the evening involved three individuals being taken down to the cells and put on the intoximeter. A sweepstake was then run on their readings. The results were quite surprising - a couple were in the expected range but the third registered about half what he should have done but then he was a fat bastard who had consumed a donor and chips early on in the session.

Tri-To-Start

11th Nov 2009, 22:08

One can easily see that in cases of sufficiently high BAC, 12 hours is not enough time to get down to .04 or below.

I would venture a guess that his "partaking of the spirits" was the evening before. I don't think it's all that likely that a professional pilot would wake up and hit the bottle a few hours before the flight.

Assuming he was close to .02 at the time of arrest (ie noon) then 10 hrs. earlier (ie 2 am) he could have reached a level of about .15 which could have been around 7-8 drinks. (assuming a normal metabolism and an alcohol burnoff rate of .015/hr).

That level of drunkeness would have been very obvious especially at the time and probably even into the morning. If he had breakfast with the crew it should have been obvious that he had tied one on the night before.

Iceman49

11th Nov 2009, 22:57

"I personally don't fly commercial any oftener than I have to, and this is one of the reasons.

Flying commercial at one time was a pretty good guarantee of safety, of placing your butt into the loving, caring hands of consummate professionals.

Now, not so much.

It seems, these days, that boarding a flight means you're a member of a certain "risk pool."

Zoso, I think you have to consider the thousands of flights every day and the number of individuals that travel safely....your "risk pool" goes up exponentially when you step in side an auto or other means of transportation. You are still in the caring hands of consummate professionals.

Tri-To-Start

12th Nov 2009, 02:17

Zoso, I think you have to consider the thousands of flights every day and the number of individuals that travel safely....your "risk pool" goes up exponentially when you step in side an auto or other means of transportation. You are still in the caring hands of consummate professionals.

Absolutely. Flying has never been safer IMHO. For every story like this you here there are thousand of airline professionals doing everything they can to keep you safe.

In this case the system worked. The pilot was safely removed by procedures in place by the airline and the airport.

Humans are imperfect, but in spite of it the system works pretty darn good.

If you think pilots didn't get drunk in the old days you're mistaken. They just didn't get caught. The old rule of thumb was you quit drinking when you saw the airplane.

frangatang

12th Nov 2009, 04:37

It would be interesting to turn the spotlight on cabin crew as there are more than a few
who certainly sail close to the wind, recreational drugs downroute included!

snaproll3480

12th Nov 2009, 05:51

rottenray,

There you go again. While I agree with you on the subject at hand, your posts are consistently inflamatory. You obviously have a problem with people and no understanding of human factors. You say you look forward to a fully automated cockpit. You do realize that people still have to program the computers. In any system there will always be the possibility of human error. As former USAF, you should know that no matter how professional a pilot or mechanic may be, he is still human.

AnthonyGA

12th Nov 2009, 17:35

I also read that it was UA groundstaff who reported the pilot.

Can anyone tell me why they would do that rather than just preventing him from flying?

Because drunk pilots need to find new careers? Presumably the ground staff was more worried about keeping passengers and crew alive than it was about saving this intoxicated pilot's job. The idea is not to cover for a drunk pilot, but to remove him. Those who cover for pilots who are not fit to fly are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

An article in USA Today claims that only about a dozen U.S. pilots are caught intoxicated by alcohol each year by authorities. The aviation industry can very easily do without these pilots. Unfortunately, for every one that is caught, there are probably many others who fly intoxicated. Still, abuse of alcohol is exceptionally rare among pilots, many of whom don't drink at all, just to be safe. If all pilots who insisted on flying under the influence of ethanol were removed from their jobs, plenty of other pilots would be instantly ready to step up and take their places, and they would be more than willing to stay drug-free for the privilege.

If one beer is enough to be over the limit, then why not just skip the beer and have a soda pop instead? If taking this drug is so important that a pilot is willing to risk his career to indulge his desire for it, he has a serious problem and shouldn't be going near a flight deck at all.

Yes, there are many other things that can impair pilots. But that simply means that these other sources of impairment need to be addressed, too—it does not mean that impairment by alcohol should be tolerated. The idea is to increase safety, not reduce it. Additionally, a drunk pilot has voluntarily impaired himself, then has voluntarily chosen to fly unsafely. That's a bit different from someone who has been excessively fatigued by inappropriate work schedules and risks retaliation by his employer if he dares to admit that he is unfit to fly. In both cases, the pilot needs to stay on the ground, but in the first case, the pilot is entirely the source of his own problem, which he could have avoided without any effort at all.

If you don't wanted to end your career because of alcohol abuse, don't drink. If you cannot stay away from alcohol long enough to be at zero when you fly, despite the danger of killing yourself and others and the danger of destroying your career even if you survive, then you have a drinking problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not. If you are so reckless that you are willing to intoxicate yourself despite the risks, then you have personality issues that are incompatible with the piloting profession, and you need to find a different line of work in which your disregard for safety will not be a danger to others.

The reputation of the entire flying profession is being threatened by a drunken few who never should have gone near an airplane to begin with. It amazes me that so many people jump publicly to the defense of this handful of losers; it only worsens the damage to the image of professional pilots everywhere.

Tri-To-Start

12th Nov 2009, 18:07

The other thing I don't quite understand is why a pilot who'd been under the influence doesn't just call in sick.

If this pilot called in sick, UA would have find a reserve and it would likely be no questions asked and no serious career impact.

However by chancing it he just ended his career.

cityfan

12th Nov 2009, 19:54

He did not simply materialize at LHR, so he was probably WITH crewmembers for the 30-45-60 minute ride from the hotel. Maybe they did not think anything of him? Maybe they did and were less than helpful? Maybe we will find out when things work themselves through?

As for alcohol testing, I have heard it said, by a wiser man than me, that the test is NOT actually an alcohol test, but an IQ test! I only hope that this is not the tip of the iceberg for this pilot and that IF he does need help, then this is the exact impetus he needs to get that help.

My best to him and his family, who are probably ALL suffering. While I may not condone his supposed behavior, that does not negate the compassion I feel for him and his family.

One last thing, it is funny how EVERY major fatigue study shows that pilot fatigue is often chronic and insidious. However, of even greater note is that it has the same EFFECT of performance as BEING DRUNK! Don't hear anything about that MAJOR ISSUE from the Charlie's on here who are quick to hang every pilot who steps over an often invisible line, even though FATIGUE affects almost ALL major airline pilot on a regular basis.

P.S. AnthonyGA....have to say that you seem to have some deep seated anger against pilots, alcohol, and possibly other issues. Please step back and LISTEN if you have such little insight into the job. Thanks, mate.

AlpineSkier

12th Nov 2009, 20:54

Perhaps flight-crew could answer this.

Would company regulations normally include a procedure for company personnel to prevent a captain from boarding his aircraft if they had suspicions about capability ?

And if it concerned alcohol, can they enforce a breath-test without involving the police ?

Tan

12th Nov 2009, 21:26

At my shop there is an internal process to follow if anyone suspects that any crewmember is not capable of performing his or her duties for whatever reason. The crewmember in question would be immediately removed from duty and it doesn’t involve the authorities. The rest of the industry has the same standards but unfortunately s### happens.

There has to be more to this story..

Tri-To-Start

12th Nov 2009, 21:32

Tan

12th Nov 2009, 21:45

1. Yes
2. No; see 3
3. Depends on the illness
4. Yes its in my contract
5. No

AnthonyGA

12th Nov 2009, 22:34

… it is funny how EVERY major fatigue study shows that pilot fatigue is often chronic and insidious. However, of even greater note is that it has the same EFFECT of performance as BEING DRUNK! Don't hear anything about that MAJOR ISSUE from the Charlie's on here who are quick to hang every pilot who steps over an often invisible line, even though FATIGUE affects almost ALL major airline pilot on a regular basis.

Pilots should be prevented from flying if they are too tired, also. The fact that they are not does not justify allowing them to fly while taking drugs. Too wrongs don't make a right. The solution is to stop pilots from flying when tired, not to look the other way when they fly drunk.

And there is no invisible line. If you don't want to be intoxicated, don't drink. If you don't want to fail an alcohol test, don't drink. It's easy.

The limit should be set to zero. People who are addicted to alcohol will drink as much as they can get away with. If the limit is 0.02, they'll drink up to 0.02; if it's 0.50, they'll drink up to 0.50. And they'll always claim that it's okay as long as they are below whatever the limit is set to. The only way to deal with this is zero tolerance.

For someone who is not addicted, abstaining entirely from alcohol long enough to have zero alcohol in his system is effortless. For someone who is addicted, it's virtually impossible. But that doesn't mean that addicts should be allowed to drink, it means that they must be removed from duty until and unless they can be trusted to stay clean while flying.

P.S. AnthonyGA....have to say that you seem to have some deep seated anger against pilots, alcohol, and possibly other issues.

Nope, just a lot of time dealing with people who are addicted and in denial. Some of them are in jail now, and some others are dead. I've seen a number of posts here that show many or all of the symptoms. What worries me is that some of the people writing the posts may be pilots.

I don't really care if addicts decide to kill themselves with drugs, be it alcohol or anything else … as long as they don't take anyone else with them.

Unfortunately, people with drug problems who operate vehicles often kill other people. Therefore people with drug problems need to be kept away from jobs that involve operating vehicles.

Gertrude the Wombat

12th Nov 2009, 23:18

At my shop there is an internal process to follow if anyone suspects that any crewmember is not capable of performing his or her duties for whatever reason. The crewmember in question would be immediately removed from duty and it doesn’t involve the authorities.
So you're saying that your organisation has built-in policies and procedures for routinely perverting the course of justice? Perhaps you could name this organisation so that we could avoid them?

Tan

13th Nov 2009, 00:06

Gertrude the Wombat

That’s not the intent of what I wrote and you know it, so please quit playing stupid.

Your age, weight, gender, and time of day, physical condition, prior amount of food consumed, other drugs or medication taken, and a multitude of other factors affect your blood alcohol level. The DOT has established a 0.02% (0.02g/dL) as the level at which an individual is considered positive for the present of alcohol. Some jurisdictions use 0.01%-0.02% BAC to define zero tolerance to allow for variation in alcohol testing instruments.

The average individual appears normal with a BAC reading between 0.01%-0.029%..

Why are some folks rushing to judgement without knowing the details of what happened?

cityfan

13th Nov 2009, 00:31

AnthonyGA,

Unfortunately, people with drug problems who operate vehicles often kill other people. Therefore people with drug problems need to be kept away from jobs that involve operating vehicles.

Could you tell me which (any) major airline incident causing death was determined to be due to a pilot acting under the influence of alcohol, please?

Also, for someone such as myself, who flies 18 days per month, when EXACTLY is one allowed to have an adult beverage. As it is, many airlines, including my own, have a 50% higher standard than the FAA on when you can and cannot drink alcohol. In addition, it is NOT alcohol USE that causes positive tests, but ABUSE. You should know the difference, IF you have seen what you say you have seen.

cityfan

13th Nov 2009, 00:44

Can any mainline airline pilots answer these questions. What if the UA pilot decided he made a bad mistake and chose to call in sick that morning.

1. Does he simply call the airline and say he's sick? (no questions asked)
2. Does he need involvement from a doctor to either substantiate his sick claim or to release him back to duty?
3. Would he likely deadhead back to his home station once he claims he's better or would they fit him back in with a crew?
4. Would sick time pay typically cover the flight hours he would have lost by not flying? (or was there a financial incentive for him to try to fly that day)
5. Is there any major negative ramification of calling in sick?

Tan responded:

1. Yes
2. No; see 3
3. Depends on the illness
4. Yes its in my contract
5. No

While this may be true for Tan's airline, it is not true in all circumstances, including those for the airline involved.

1. Yes.
2. Maybe, depends on prior sick leave usage.
3. They would try and get him home asap, unless there was some reason that the airline was understaffed overseas, while is rarely the case.
4. Maybe, see #2
5. Maybe, especially if he has been highlighted by the company's Absence Management System(AMS), which tracks ALL absences, especially the occurrence and timing of sick leave usage.

I do not know if this particular pilot is in AMS or not. However, even more importantly, if he needs assistance, I hope he is getting it from the union and company's Employee Assistance Program, which is an excellent resource for all company employees, including pilots, when necessary.

Tri-To-Start

13th Nov 2009, 02:32

Thanks Tan and Cityfan,
Then the only thing that prevented this pilot from simply calling in sick was likely ego, judgement and desire to get back home.

It sounds like airline policy is such that there are no significant ramifications in simply calling in sick regardless of the reason as long as it's not frequently abused?

Hope this pilot can get some help.

SDFlyer

13th Nov 2009, 03:48

Legalapproach: Yes - the limit applies to any pilot regardless of the type of licence they hold. The law really intends to create a zero alcohol rule. The small amount it allows for is intended to deal with very small amounts of alcohol that naturally occur in some individuals as a result of production by the body as opposed to consumption.

Thanks, that makes sense. It's certainly uncompromising.

Legalapproach: Watneys - I wonder if that party seven can is still doing the student party circuit?

So do I. Ahhh, happy memories.

Alpineskier: I can tell you why UA staff would choose to call the cops on the alcohol-smelling pilot rather than take some other course. Because of the effect that doing so would have, which they considered desirable - bravo to them.

Bronx

13th Nov 2009, 04:28

cityfan P.S. AnthonyGA....have to say that you seem to have some deep seated anger against pilots, alcohol, and possibly other issues. Please step back and LISTEN if you have such little insight into the job. Thanks, mate.

AnthonyGA is not a pilot, he's a flight-sim enthusiast.
Step back and listen??
No chance.
Check out his posting history.

http://www.pagaslease.com/images/dont_feed_trolls.gif

Lostinspace

13th Nov 2009, 11:53

Come on people it is always possible for the smell of beer to linger on the breath even if legal to fly. Protect yourself from all the hasel. One extra strong mint before leaving hotel room.

Ex Cargo Clown

13th Nov 2009, 14:17

Alpineskier: I can tell you why UA staff would choose to call the cops on the alcohol-smelling pilot rather than take some other course

Please tell us then.

Should the groundstaff also call the police when a pilot is fatigued ??

mary meagher

13th Nov 2009, 20:09

I am a PPL. I would not dream of flying less than 12 hours after a single unit of alcohol.

I may think I am the greatest pilot and able to disregard the rule, but it sure shows up when I try to play the piano after a drink! There goes the coordination right out the window. Of course flying a plane is much simpler than playing a Beethoven sonata, unless everything goes pearshaped.....

Slickster

14th Nov 2009, 01:31

Oh, gosh, here we go again. A bunch of armchair pilots, trying, convicting, and sentencing someone before all the facts come to hand.

Now, maybe you are the best pilot ever on some **** programme on your PC, but you're not an airline pilot. You didn't have to be down route, when your mum was dying of cancer, with a bunch of strangers, or when your marriage was playing up, or your kid fell ill, and you could do nothing about it, except hear grief from the other end of the telephone, 6000 miles away.

But I guess we should all be grateful, because we're not some sad tit like AntonyGA, and have human failings. So much easier on a PC isn't it? I'm guessing the PC programmes don't factor those bits in, or the fatigue, early starts, and jetlag. No doubt the mighty AnthonyGA could cope though, without recourse to drugs.

Give the guy a break. He hasn't killed anyone - no one has in commercial aviation, as far as I know, due alcohol - he may have overstepped the mark, or maybe he hasn't. The last thing we need is a bunch of self-appointed armchair specialists telling us how to do things. If you want that, do the whole job, not just the 6 o'clock stint at your PC before your dinner.

I'm not advocating any pilot turning up drunk for work (I love that term - they're not even over the legal drive limit, but it's "drunk pilot" all round), but at the same time, the puritanical attitude of some on this website is annoying.

At the end of the day (or night), you end up on the other side of the World, with a bunch of strangers. Funnily enough, you agree to meet in the bar. It's what strangers tend to do, if they are in the least bit sociable. Or maybe they should just stay in their room, and hang themselves (has happened), or just drink orange juice, and praise the Lord how lucky they are to be on the other side of the World, whilst their Mum is in hospital, or their wife is seeing Leroy?

Maybe we should settle this once and for all, and just have the pious teetotal gimps, who've never even left their own bedrooms fly airliners around the skies, and then see how safe it is.

Tri-To-Start

14th Nov 2009, 02:13

Now, maybe you are the best pilot ever on some **** programme on your PC, but you're not an airline pilot. You didn't have to be down route, when your mum was dying of cancer, with a bunch of strangers, or when your marriage was playing up, or your kid fell ill, and you could do nothing about it, except hear grief from the other end of the telephone, 6000 miles away.

Yes life it tough. He could have simply called in sick with virtually no ramifications.

I'm not advocating any pilot turning up drunk for work (I love that term - they're not even over the legal drive limit, but it's "drunk pilot" all round), but at the same time, the puritanical attitude of some on this website is annoying.

If he had a Mimosa at breakfast that would be one thing. If he was so drunk the night before that he still blew a >.02 the following noon the next day then he potentially put lives at risk. His lack of judgement to simply call in sick that morning was an indicator of his unworthiness to fly.

The system worked that removed him from the cockpit. If it's a one time occurance I hope he can get help and salvage his career,

DozyWannabe

14th Nov 2009, 12:25

There are times when we need to refer to past wisdom on this forum, and this is one of those times:

http://www.pprune.org/non-airline-transport-stuff/295673-his-honour-judge-flying-lawyer-5.html#post3636804

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/256861-pilot-jailed-alcoholism-pilots-13.html#post3236141

L337

14th Nov 2009, 17:16

You didn't have to be down route, when your mum was dying of cancer, with a bunch of strangers, or when your marriage was playing up, or your kid fell ill, and you could do nothing about it, except hear grief from the other end of the telephone, 6000 miles away.

The importance, and implications of that observation cannot possible be understated.

If you have done the job, it will hit the mark. If you have never flown longhaul, you will not begin to understand or appreciate the above.

And before the PC Pilot brigade, armchair morning after perfect holier than though attempt to lynch me. I am not trying to defend flying under the influence of Alcohol. Just direct a light into the darker crevice of living in a hotel bedroom. Year after year after year.

BEA 71

14th Nov 2009, 18:07

So far the only sensible reply. Well said, Slickster.

Willie Everlearn

14th Nov 2009, 22:07

.02 blood alcohol?

If he only blew .02, what's the problem?
You can blow .02 with a teaspoon of Expectorant.

Anyone?

EGMA

14th Nov 2009, 22:57

.02 blood alcohol?

If he only blew .02, what's the problem?
You can blow .02 with a teaspoon of Expectorant.

Anyone? Limits are stupid ... it is the total picture that is the determining factor. I've been incapable on less and capable with more. It depends on other things, such as state of mind, health etc.

Another example of the nanny state taking away personal responsibility and replacing it with limits, so that it can claim it has the problem under control; it doesn't!

Tri-To-Start

14th Nov 2009, 23:20

If he only blew .02, what's the problem?

He exceeded .02. By how much hasn't been made public yet.

The problem is violation of the law and his contract.

Realisticlly if he had a beer or glass of wine that morning I doubt he'd be impaired. However it's far more likely he tied one on big time the night before. His drunkeness 12 hrs earlier would have been quite severe. It's likely he was either still drunk or had a massive hangover.

cityfan

15th Nov 2009, 05:09

Tri...

If he did not drink within 12 hours, did not blow .04 or more, and did not show up "under the effects of alcohol" (with a "hangover"), he did NOT violate EITHER his company regs OR the regs under which he flies in his home country. However, he apparently DID violate the regs in Britain, which are clearly stricter than those in the U.S.

Not advocating that what he is alleged to have done is laudable, nor am I willing to bury him over a bunch of news tidbits!

As for those of you who are not major airline pilots, flying 15-18 days per month (at least 10 hotels per month), missing birthdays, holidays, family events, family deaths, family weddings, flying tired, hungry, etc, etc... then PLEASE be judicious in your comments. Until you have walked a mile.....

:=

P.S. Thanks, Bronx, for the heads up on AnthonyGA. Title says it all!!

worldpilot

15th Nov 2009, 08:15

We, Pilots, have lost control of our public image and it's time we reclaim back the right image. It will be difficult to attain this as long as we continuously discuss cockpit incidents with enmity. Certainly, discussions that go astray don't really help reclaim back the right image.

This pilot (the captain?) went unconscious for some reason and the other pilot (copilot?) landed the plane. At least the plane flew back to base and landed safely.:ok:

So, what has this incident got to do with the hiring policy in this industry:confused: :{:=

We can only reclaim back the right image by fostering the right perspectives.:D

WP

africacargo

15th Nov 2009, 09:51

Everyone I am a new comer to this site and have an opinion and it is this wait for the facts it really does stop you looking stupid when they emerge but there again everyone is entitled to their opinion just some of us base this on as much factual information as possible and dont assasinate a colleague without the salient FACTS

doublesix

15th Nov 2009, 22:54

RoyHudd

15th Nov 2009, 23:13

The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

"Contributors" like DoubleSix, who are not pro pilots, have no place on this site. But they, and their much better-qualified PPL expert colleagues, insist on spouting forth. As they feel entitled to do.

We who do the job know much, much better.

And the UK law is an ass, again.

Slickster

15th Nov 2009, 23:59

I find your post astonishing to be frank. We all have problems and have to deal with them, but thankfully most of us don't have to fly 100 plus passengers around the world. Please give us your airline, routes etc so I can avoid them. (I know you won't of course).

Please avoid me then. I fly for BA, as a captain, on all sorts of different routes, around Europe. Previously, I used to fly long haul for BA, on all sorts of different routes, around the World. (Anyone with half a brain could have worked that out anyway, looking at my profile.)

Best fly with someone else then. I never advocated drunk flying, but was merely trying to shine a light, and be empathetic. What a waste of time.

doublesix

16th Nov 2009, 00:07

What does being pro pilot have to do with this? If the pilot was over the prescribed limit, end of argument. Same as the drink drive limit, you are over the limit or not.

As far as the quote, 'Give the guy a break. He hasn't killed anyone - no one has in commercial aviation, as far as I know, due alcohol - he may have overstepped the mark, or maybe he hasn't. comment, well so lucky public.

As I said previously, we all have problems and have to deal with them however hard. If you are half way around the world doing your chosen job, surely it must come with the territory?

SDFlyer

16th Nov 2009, 00:10

So from your point of you slickster, it's a case of "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"? I suppose you would deny it, but that's sure how you're coming across in this thread.

Is it not part of being a professional, in any profession (such as my own, not a commercial pilot), to behave to certain standards regardless of the pressures that are brought to bear (financial, personal, whatever)? Drinking to excess because of some personal problem or distance from home - what a load of cobblers. Perhaps neurosurgeons should reconsider their attitude towards drinking and operating as well ......

Your nasty attacks on others just trying to express their opinion don't reflect well IMHO. I don't care how many routes you've flown on how many airlines. I'm no wannabe, you can keep your splendid profession (it's every bit as screwed up as my own has been for some time :) and my investment in it was considerably greater).

I greatly respect what you do and wish you good day Cap'n. Neither of us are gonna fix the problems with the world, which aren't getting any better. Now where's that bottle of Gordon's ......

mseyfang

16th Nov 2009, 04:24

Is it not part of being a professional, in any profession (such as my own, not a commercial pilot), to behave to certain standards regardless of the pressures that are brought to bear (financial, personal, whatever)? Drinking to excess because of some personal problem or distance from home - what a load of cobblers. Perhaps neurosurgeons should reconsider their attitude towards drinking and operating as well ...

I'm not quite sure what your point is; there's a high incidence (bad pun, sorry) of alcohol/drug issues in most professions. It seems to me that awareness and a feeling of "there but for the grace of God go I" is a healthy thing. As I take Slickster's post, it's not a defense of drinking and flying; rather, it's a recognition that none of us are immune to potentially developing some sort of difficulty and that there are unique pressures in flying that can aggravate a predisposition. The same is true in medicine and law, for that matter. If you accept the disease model of addiction, I don't see how it is possible to somehow think that certain professionals should be immune. Ironically, some of the traits that make people good pilots, such as intelligence, attention to detail and perfectionism are correlated with a predisposition to alcohol issues. These are also, I might add, traits I would want in a neurosurgeon...

L337

16th Nov 2009, 07:48

Without looking at slickster's profile, I can tell just from his post that he has done the job of flying longhaul for a major. No need for profiles. I can tell that because I do that same job. Unlike some of you that clearly have never have, and fail totally to understand the point he was making. Preferring to make stupidly abusive posts.

I have news for some of you.. Pilots are human. They have human faults, and human problems. Our children still get sick, family die, and wife's run off with the next door neighbour. And when you next get on an aeroplane your pilot just might have had a blazing row with his girlfriend. But you know what, 99.999% of us deal with the problems of life appropriately. And what is more, appropriately on the end of a phone, 6000 miles away from home. Time after time, and year after year.

Basil

16th Nov 2009, 09:13

Slickster & L337,
Hear hear!

africacargo

16th Nov 2009, 16:05

We have a situation where a Pilot is allegedly over the allowed limit (which is miniscule) and suddenly he is a drunk unable to cope with life and mentally unstable or so it seems from some of the posts on here - where are the facts and also may I say I am astounded at the no of people on here with no experience of the job but with such big opinions - remarkable

Basil

5th Jan 2010, 11:19

Regrettably:
BBC News - US pilot admits being over alcohol limit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8441206.stm)
A US pilot has pleaded guilty to being over the alcohol limit while in charge of an aircraft.
He admitted a charge of "being aviation staff performing an aviation function whilst exceeding the proscribed alcohol limit".
A blood test revealed 50 milligrams of alcohol in 100ml of blood. The limit for pilots is 20 milligrams of alcohol, compared to the legal limit of 80 milligrams for motorists.
The United Airlines pilot will be sentenced on 5 February at Uxbridge Magistrates Court in west London.

DX Wombat

5th Jan 2010, 14:58

Time to close this [and ban any future threads on this theme?] before we get into the sanctimonious "See, I told you he was drunk etc, etc" scenario?

Bronx

5th Jan 2010, 17:37

sanctimonious "See, I told you he was drunk etc, etc" scenario?

He was over the legal limit for pilots but he was NOT drunk:A blood test revealed 50 milligrams of alcohol in 100ml of blood. The limit for pilots is 20 milligrams of alcohol, compared to the legal limit of 80 milligrams for motorists.

421dog

6th Jan 2010, 00:45

Umm, 50 mg/100ml is 0.05% which is above the FAA limit of 0.04%

Not that I think that crucifixion is in order here, just a bit of a medical bent...

doishquattroserche

6th Jan 2010, 07:13

And ive been so tired starting my duties ,leaving Japan for a daylightflight home ,that the affects must have been worse than a couple of pints of sapporro the night before .Two things,if i had "gone sick" or declared myself fatigued ,my employer whould have been unimpressed to say the least and also ,in the UK at least ,anything that can be measured is sacred compared to tiredness which is more subjective but just as dangerous. A messed up peurile system ,just like security ,all IMHO of coures!

speke2me

7th Jan 2010, 23:32

I've read your post #68, and fully empathise and agree with the points made about the rigours and demands of your job, and indeed your desire for people to give the poor guy a bit of a break. Now the facts are out he was even below the legal motorist limit, so hardly 'drunk'. He made a mistake. That's all. Normal human beings tend to do that occasionally.

Btw I'm also an 'armchair pilot' (although admittedly I do have 18hrs logged up to now in a spamcan). So maybe not all armchair pilots are that bad?

:)

captjns

8th Jan 2010, 08:54

Soooo did the dumb ass in question brake or not brake the rules?

Slickster

8th Jan 2010, 10:00

I expect the "dumb ass" in question, as you politely refer to him, at least knows how to spell "break", and how to brake his aeroplane or car. Now, who's the dumb ass?

Speke2me, thanks for your consideration. To err is human, and this chap will, no doubt, pay a hefty price for his erring.

captjns

8th Jan 2010, 10:14

Sorry for the mispelling ERROR Slickster, as it was not INTENTIONAL.

Would you agree that this chap had the required knowledge to curb his alcohol consumption within the time limits as he learned from his training, company requirements, and Federal Aviation Regulations?

I mean come on this is not like forgetting to put the seat down after using the toilet is it?

I really can't see how this was an error.

Slickster

8th Jan 2010, 10:25

I wouldn't have jumped on your spelling mistake, if you hadn't used the term "dumb ass". He's almost certainly lost his job, and will probably go to prison (yes, for breaking the Law), so I think your comments are uncalled for.

err |ər; er|
verb [ intrans. ] formal
be mistaken or incorrect; make a mistake : the judge had erred in ruling that the evidence was inadmissible.
• [often as adj. ] ( erring) sin; do wrong : the erring brother who had wrecked his life.

Yes, I would say this chap made a big mistake, or error, but I don't know the whys and wherefores of it, suffice to say the punishment will more than fit the crime.

captjns

8th Jan 2010, 10:48

You're right Slickster, my term "Dumb ass" was uncalled for. Personally, with over 30 years of airline experience, I find it insulting when crewmembers feel they are above their colleagues, and rules and regulations do not apply to them. It's because of such inappropriate behaviour, the respect we deserve is continually eroded.

IMHO he will have paid the price with the loss of his job, and thus prison will not serve any useful purpose.

beardy

8th Jan 2010, 12:09

Fortunately the court, where he is tried for his misdemeanour, cannot also 'sack' him, it has to apply it's own sanction, which cannot fully take into account the likelihood of his employer's actions (that would be in the realms of fortune telling.) I say fortunately because any other course would be totalitarian.
I agree that losing his job as a pilot, should it happen, is more than enough of a sanction and deterrent. If he doesn't lose his employment there has to be some form of sentence. It's all very sad really.

IcePack

8th Jan 2010, 14:22

Bring back the old days when the skippers often had a sharpener on the last leg home. & landing drinks were the norm. As for bottle to throttle, well as long as you got back to the hotel to change that was ok. Oh & it was ok as long as you could walk, not neccessarly in a straight line.
Yes flights did go like that, but more to the point aircraft were not crashing because of it. Obviously pilots were made of sterner stuff then.
BUT!!! That was then, the world has changed & knowledge of the possible consequences and realization of potential catastroughy. Also modern a/c need much more management rather than seat of the pants stuff.
I am amazed that pilots still take the risk of being over the limit, considering the resultant outcome of being found out. However the limits being so low I guess some think they will be ok by then that seems to be the problem, rather than being actually too drunk to operate. Somehow we need to educate and care for those individuals who can not fathom their limit.
Maybe a test machine on report would be good, without predjudice would work.
1. You would not get someone over the limit operating
2. Those individuals who are found to be over the limit would soon learn not to drink prior to duty.

A whole lot safer than the present system of relying on coleaugues security etc thinking they can smell drink on the breath.

Albert Salmon

8th Jan 2010, 23:57

Many years ago - in the early 1970's, to be more precise - I was an operations agent for TWA at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv.

I was briefing a flight crew early one morning when I detected a strong smell of alcohol on a captain's breath. I consulted the station manager (the late, great, Louis Fogiel), who sent a TTY message to the Rome despatcher's office.

The boozy-breathed aviator was summarily suspended from duty and a check captain, due to take a later flight out, was hastily roused from his bed to take his place.

We never saw the offending pilot again in TLVKO.

speke2me

9th Jan 2010, 00:40

"Speke2me, thanks for your consideration. To err is human, and this chap will, no doubt, pay a hefty price for his erring."

And no doubt he will. End of his career. Just to say again, it was a mistake, and we all make them.

This thread is a bit like 'tea cup' and 'storm'. As a flying punter, I respect the professionalism of pilots worldwide. I am far more likely to be knocked over by a bus than meet my end in an aircraft, and you can probably multiply the odds by 1000,000 that the pilot flying that crash plane was drunk.

Hope the guy keeps his bloody pension anyway.

:)

brit bus driver

9th Jan 2010, 01:39

Slickster

Fine post - look forward to sharing a beer (Jehovah, Jehovah!) with you as I fear we're on the same beasty. The last few days at LHR are enough to drive anyone to drink!!:ok:

In a previous life, I think the rule was no drinking within 25 yards of the aircraft and no smoking within 12 hours...

Good luck to the guy on Feb 5th. Yes, I said it, good luck to him.

Danimal

9th Jan 2010, 12:46

Good CRM doesn't stop after work.
When hanging out together, all my colleagues stopped drinking quietly 9-10h before next duty time. This was never an issue. For Cabin and Flightdeck this was obvious and never a hassle and handled as a team.
On long trips, it happened that young FOs had a hard start after partying out, but always performed well during the short trips and where wise enough to avoid that for the long return trips.

Gentleman Jim

9th Jan 2010, 13:54

Albert Salmon

Many years ago - in the early 1970's, to be more precise - I was an operations agent for TWA at Ben-Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv.

I was briefing a flight crew early one morning when I detected a strong smell of alcohol on a captain's breath. I consulted the station manager (the late, great, Louis Fogiel), who sent a TTY message to the Rome despatcher's office.

The boozy-breathed aviator was summarily suspended from duty and a check captain, due to take a later flight out, was hastily roused from his bed to take his place.

We never saw the offending pilot again in TLVKO.

Did you speak to the boozy breathed Captain first? You may have cost a man his lively hood for nothing. I am currently on the Atkins Diet and when you enter a stage known as Ketosis (your body is flushing out large amounts of toxins) your breath stinks of alcohol, quite sweet, similar to nail varnish remover but alcohol none the less. I have not consumed alcohol for over 60 days, yet my breath currently smells of alcohol. It will cease within 15-30 mins of me taking carbohydrates. People can enter this unawares if they do not consume enough carbs over 48 hrs. So a few days away eating bacon and eggs for breakfast, salads at lunchtime, and a nice big steak and salad in the evening washed down with water, tea no suger, red wine or a few scotch and waters will see you in Ketosis within 48-60 hrs, with your breath smelling of .....alcohol!

Not speaking with the crewmember concerned was wrong of you and reporting him in such a manner was quite awful. I imagine you felt quite clever but to be honest you became judge and jury and maybe you ruined his life for no reason at all.

Gentleman Jim

bedsted

9th Jan 2010, 18:51

Well said Gentlemen Jim. Mr Salmon would appear to be a typical jobs worth seeking his own stardom at the expense of others.

Buter

9th Jan 2010, 19:03

Pay him little mind, boys.

Mr. Salmon is a serial Sh!t-stirrer.

B

suraci

9th Jan 2010, 21:11

Atkins diet / ketosis makes the breath smell of ketones (pear drops, nail varnish remover), not alcohol

Dream Buster

10th Jan 2010, 09:02

How come it is so easy to throw the Rule book against a pilot who is over the alcohol limit and yet that same pilot is "allowed" to have unlimited amounts of neurotoxins in their blood / fat and actually feel intoxicated?

Viewing this short clip might help to explain how many aircrew often feel intoxicated - whilst not having any alcohol in them.

Sunday Night Videos - Yahoo!7 TV (http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/video/-/watch/13395216/)

Please someone explain the difference...

DB :ugh: :ok:

Ex Cargo Clown

10th Jan 2010, 12:39

Atkins diet / ketosis makes the breath smell of ketones (pear drops, nail varnish remover), not alcohol

They would be esters :E

Gentleman Jim

11th Jan 2010, 04:55

Atkins diet / ketosis makes the breath smell of ketones (pear drops, nail varnish remover), not alcoho

Is that your pedant mode suraci?

They would be esters

Exactly.

Suraci
Pass a bottle of Nail Varnish remover under somebody's nose and they will tell you it contains alcohol, I think you really do get the point don't you..

Ex Cargo Clown

11th Jan 2010, 10:31

Pass a bottle of Nail Varnish remover under somebody's nose and they will tell you it contains alcohol, I think you really do get the point don't you..

Spot on

I very much doubt 99.99% of the population could tell the difference between etyhl alcohol and acetone. The remainder have Chemistry degrees !

The chance of the chimps at security knowing the difference is the square root of :mad: all

HotDog

11th Jan 2010, 11:07

Sunday Night Videos - Yahoo!7TV
Typical uninformed TV hype. 20,000hrs ops in various, well maintained US designed and built airplanes without any crew or passenger complaints in my previous life!

stepwilk

16th Jan 2010, 20:21

"Pass a bottle of Nail Varnish remover under somebody's nose and they will tell you it contains alcohol, I think you really do get the point don't you.."

Just went up and took a good sniff of my wife's nail-polish remover. Anybody who would "tell you it contains alcohol" would probably say the same of a can of gasoline, a squirt of starter-fluid ether, a drum of kerosene or a bucket of tar. It smells no more like alcohol than do any of them. Try it.

Stop Stop Stop

18th Jan 2010, 12:48

I doubt anyone would lose their livelyhood because they were reported for having a breath smelling of ketones or esters.

If they WERE reported, the individual would have the chance of a blood test and I am certain they would be proved innocent.

After all, if ketosis was building up alcohol in the blood, all airlines would ban the Atkins diet for all operating staff.

You are either over the alcohol limit or not!

IcePack

18th Jan 2010, 15:11

Trouble is Stop Stop Stop.

It takes a few days to get the blood test result and you are suspended during that time. The flight you were about to do gets Cancelled or at least delayed + the knock on etc.,

Trouble is the breath analyser will register on ketones & as the alcohol limit for crew is so low the police usually defer to the blood test anyway, it can really ruin your day/week.

Personally as this type of reporting "Could" be used in spite I believe that as such a report would be against an airman's professionalism the accused should be able to sue for slander. (assuming alcohol reading below limit)

Before I get flamed, remember the Manchester Police breath tested a crew for doing a Couple of Go-Arounds. So stupidity reigns OK.:rolleyes:

beardy

19th Jan 2010, 06:41

Before I get flamed, remember the Manchester Police breath tested a crew for doing a Couple of Go-Arounds. So stupidity reigns OK

Can I have a reference for that please. I don't recall it

Slickster

19th Jan 2010, 07:04

Here's a link to the thread (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/160845-uk-pilot-breathalysed-after-go-arounds.html)

I'm sure there are references in there somewhere, if you want to trawl through it.

beamender99

19th Feb 2010, 14:33

'Drunk' Pilot Captain Erwin Vermont Washington Receives Suspended Sentence And Avoids Jail | World News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Drunk-Pilot-Captain-Erwin-Vermont-Washington-Receives-Suspended-Sentence-And-Avoids-Jail/Article/201002315553393?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15553393_Drunk_Pilot_Captain_Erwin_Vermont_Washi ngton_Receives_Suspended_Sentence_And_Avoids_Jail)

Bamse01

19th Feb 2010, 15:32

"When you arrived to take control of this flight for Atlantic Airlines to Chicago the air crew noticed alcohol on your breath and were disturbed enough to report the matter to airport authorities

Airbubba

19th Feb 2010, 16:14

As I speculated earlier in the thread:

The last UAL guy at LHR did OK in crown court after producing character witnesses, maybe this one will also walk with a suspended sentence on the criminal charges

Captain Washington's lawyer commented to the Court on the light sentences meted out in similar cases of U.S. pilots over the alcohol limit:

Referring to similar cases, Humphreys said an American Airlines pilot who recorded a reading of 39 milligrams of alcohol was given a fine last July, Another pilot who had 60 milligrams of alcohol in 100 milliliters of blood was given a suspended sentence.

Erwin Vermont Washington Pleads Guilty To Being Drunk While Trying To Fly United Plane (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/05/erwin-vermont-washington-_n_411491.html)

What exactly does the 'ten-month sentence suspended for two years' mean?

Arkroyal

19th Feb 2010, 16:28

It means it is a sentence of ten months in jail, which won't be enforced if he remains a good boy for two years.

I am still amazed that he can be reported to have pleaded guilty to being drunk. Hewas not. He was perfectly lagally allowed to drive a car after all.

He surely pleaded guilty to being over the limit to fly. Drunk, he most certainly was not.

EGMA

19th Feb 2010, 16:33

What exactly does the 'ten-month sentence suspended for two years' mean?Nothing; if he gets caught again (in the UK) in the next 2 years, he might do 10 months in jail.

AlpineSkier

19th Feb 2010, 19:25

Presumably means quite a lot on his ability to fly.

Insurance co to airline

"Has any of your pilots ever been convicted of any offence affecting their ability to fly your aircraft ? "

" Well there was just this one time......'

Land After

19th Feb 2010, 20:20

IF the suspended is ever activated, he'll only do 5 months in jail, if that.

Probably be in for 3 and released on a tag.

juniour jetset

20th Feb 2010, 08:57

From the BBC BBC News - No jail for US pilot caught in plane over alcohol limit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8523452.stm)

The court was told the highly experienced pilot, a married father of three, was over the legal alcohol limit as a result of a "miscalculation".

I love the way the defence claim miscalculation - hope he doesn't make these kind of miscalculations with his fuel figures, his runway lengths, V speeds, his flare etc etc...

This was such a lame excuse and the judge should of really highlighted this point, beacuse a large part of a pilot's work is good calculations.

I'm also surprised he has not been sacked from UAL - however, I am a believer in helping people who stumble and second chances. But there is also a case for making an example of someone who breaks the rules??

Basil

20th Feb 2010, 09:21

jj,
The court heard Washington has been placed on a evaluation programme by United Airlines and will not be able to fly for at least 12 months.
In most decent companies a first offence of alcohol abuse is treated as an illness and the offender is given the opportunity to dry out but that's it. One more hiccup and you're history.

Flying Lawyer

20th Feb 2010, 14:59

junior jetset

hope he doesn't make these kind of miscalculations with his fuel figures, his runway lengths, V speeds, his flare etc etc...When I read that I assumed you were an aviation enthusiast,not a pilot. A quick look at your previous posts confirmed it.
the judge should of really highlighted this point,The judge has been on the bench for 15 years and, before that, was a barrister for about 20 years. Every man to his job?because a large part of a pilot's work is good calculations.I assume the judge realised that the type of calculations to which you refer are of a very different nature. But there is also a case for making an example of someone who breaks the rules?? Sometimes yes, but only if there's a need to do so. eg When an offence is prevalent and there is a need to pass a deterrent sentence.

juniour jetset

20th Feb 2010, 16:31

Great post Flying Lawyer .. you said alot there didn't you..

just having a dig at me or showing off about your aviation and law background??

my point about calculations is valid

stepwilk

20th Feb 2010, 16:50

Knowing a well-known judge's curriculum vitae doesn't give somebody who knows how to use a search engine a "law background."

And no, your point about calculations is not the slightest bit valid, unless you imagine that a pilot calculates a bug speed by saying, "Well, I think it was about eight hours since I used it last, so it's probably still good."

By the way, will you please figure out how to spell Junior and correct your handle?

forget

20th Feb 2010, 16:55

...... and learn simple English.

the judge should of really highlighted this point,

Sailor Vee

20th Feb 2010, 17:10

may well be that English is not the first language, therefore 'hearing' affects the use of 'have' and 'of' .

juniour jetset

20th Feb 2010, 18:38

sorry all for poor English, I'm French - no xenapohbia please!! tks Sailor vee - for your post

I still think my point about calculatuions is valid

It is a captain's business to know how to calculate things that are important to his activities and that includes his alcohol limit

People who can't govern themselves need governing, and the UK justice system is semi-*doing that for this chap.

and by the way Juniour was intentional as junior was not avaliable at the time!

go chill out all you pompous folk!

forget

20th Feb 2010, 18:46

French my ar*e. Why did you post this?

I am currently 33 ….. The dream of being a pilot has always been there … Finished school with GCSEs and A Levels and then went on to University … completed my degree in Geographical Sciences … For the last 5 years I have worked in Financial markets and have gained UK and International diplomas in financial analysis.

And it's xenophobia. :hmm:

MPH

20th Feb 2010, 18:50

I remember a fair while back, when a french pilots union had a huff about, allowing their pilots to have a glass of wine with their meal! Now really, wasn´t that a miss calculation:oh:

juniour jetset

20th Feb 2010, 18:52

ok forget what is my true nationality and background? but tks for pointing out my tipo

parabellum

20th Feb 2010, 19:44

Juniour - Will you take it from professional pilots who have been in the industry just about all their working lives that the point you are trying to make about calculations is not valid?

Calculations made by a pilot relating to the job are carefully completed, using tables, computers, paper and pen and then scrutinised by at least one other member of crew.

Calculations, done in the head, possibly in a bar, may well not be accurate as fatigue, the previous drink, (and it only has to be one), and the possibility of time change, working in GMT instead of 'local' time etc. are all factors that will effect the accuracy of a mental calculation. Even Einstein made errors in calculations. Washington made an error and he is paying for it, he has never claimed to be perfect.

Dakotablue

20th Feb 2010, 19:59

JJ, and it's typo! :hmm: Sorry couldn't resist.

beamender99

20th Feb 2010, 20:05

There have been many headline reports in the press. Here is the largest report in the UK press that I could find plus a few other aditional items that may be of interest.

'Drunk' pilot who prepared to take off from Heathrow Airport avoids jail | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1252348/Drunk-pilot-prepared-Heathrow-Airport-avoids-jail.html)

Isleworth Crown Court today heard that Washington, from Lakewood, Colorado, was an experienced airline captain who had also served in the US Air Force in every conflict between 1984 and 2005.
However, Judge Sam Katkhuda criticised the growing number of pilots appearing in court charged with excess alcohol as he gave Washington a ten-month suspended jail sentence.
He warned United Airlines any other pilot found to be over the limit will face prison.
The judge said: 'This type of behaviour by a pilot of an aircraft is regarded as a very serious matter indeed.
'In this court, situated as it is so close to Heathrow, we have to deal with an increasing number of cases involving airline pilots who arrive at Heathrow to fly passenger aircraft while having excess alcohol in their blood.
'This is simply not acceptable. It was entirely voluntary on your part that you consumed alcoholic drink.
'As a pilot yourself you know well that travelling on an aircraft does not only place a special duty on passengers to behave in an orderly manner but also places a special responsibility on pilots who must comply with their duty not to have consumed alcohol above the proscribed limit.
'It's sad to see a man of your experience and background before a court for a criminal offence.
'The rules regarding the consumption of alcohol by pilots who are on duty are there for a purpose and those rules must be obeyed.'
He told Washington flying while over the limit could have resulted in catastrophe.
He added: 'In the circumstances of this case, the least possible sentence I can impose is ten months imprisonment but having heard the mitigation presented to me and testimonials of 15 people who know you well, I am prepared on this occasion to suspend the sentence for a period of two years.'

Two of United Airlines chief pilots, Captains Bo Ellis and Walter Clarke, attended court after flying to the UK especially to support father-of-three Washington. His wife Barbara was also in the court room.
The court heard he had 50 micrograms of alcohol in 100ml of blood. The legal limit is 20ml.
Neil Fitzgibbons, in mitigation, described the case as a 'miscalculation' that put his career on the line.
He said: 'He regrets that he has put his entire future and career on the line.
'Captain Washington knows the serious position he is in having put everything on the line for what was a miscalculation on his part.'
The court heard Washington has been placed on a evaluation programme by United Airlines and will not be able to fly for at least 12 months. He was also ordered to pay £350 in costs.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1252348/Drunk-pilot-prepared-Heathrow-Airport-avoids-jail.html#ixzz0g6us4kav (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1252348/Drunk-pilot-prepared-Heathrow-Airport-avoids-jail.html#ixzz0g6us4kav)

Another report that seems to only appear in the Daily Mirror which is a little suprising.
Drunk 767 pilot avoids prison term - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/02/20/drunk-767-pilot-avoids-prison-term-115875-22056358/)
--- His barrister told Isleworth crown court: "This came as a consequence of Captain Washington not expecting to do this particular flight "It was a miscalculation, he apologises to all concerned.

This part does not seem to be reported anywhere else. Was he switched from operating a later flight?

In another report
....told the court that Washington was currently enrolled in a rehab program, and United Airlines "wish to retain his services."

BarbiesBoyfriend

20th Feb 2010, 20:08

Beardy

It was a pal of mine. I'll pm you his name if you ask me. He was stone cold.

Airbubba

20th Feb 2010, 23:43

Looks like potentially another saved career for ALPA and OBAP. I would say less than half of these cases ever get media attention.

The company will loudly proclaim a 'zero-tolerance' policy for drugs and alcohol and then quietly show up as they did at this and the other UK hearings to support the pilot.

UAL presumably has a H.I.M.S. agreement (see HIMS - A Substance Abuse Treatment Program For Commercial Pilots (http://www.himsprogram.com) ) with the union that protects Captain Washington's job if he successfully completes certain milestones in rehab. Most large U.S. carriers have this, some are historically more generous than others in this regard.

This guy will probably have his year off, some of it paid by sick leave, and return to the line with his seniority intact. He'll have to be on the wagon for maybe three years and subject to increased drug and alcohol testing.

From recent cases of which I have personal knowledge, sometimes the feds take all of your tickets and make you earn them back, sometimes they don't.

This is a perennial news story and thread here in PPRuNe, unfortunately.

juniour jetset

21st Feb 2010, 07:10

Dakotablue - I know I was being ironic -I knew someone would take the bait!

ok, you guys win on the calculation front - still it's pretty bad personal management to turn upto to captain a flight with alcohol on your breath... a smart capatin would have used some mouth wash! maybe in his subconciouss he wanted to get caught?? is that Freud or Jung

A and C

21st Feb 2010, 09:17

I am left questioning the 20mg limit for transport workers, do you think it is too tight?

Is this a product of the blame culture whiped up by the lawers or the nanny state who having bannished smokers are now turning on those who like a drink?

On a personal note I would like the limit for transport workers to be set at half the driving limit...............opinions please.

Flying Lawyer

21st Feb 2010, 10:33

Airbubba I would say less than half of these cases ever get media attention. If you mean when a pilot is arrested and/or prosecuted then that is definitely not correct.
If you mean when the police are not involved then, even on your estimate, the figure remains very low.
This is a perennial news story ……. unfortunately.Perennial, but fortunately not frequent.

For example, UK convictions since 2004:

Royal Brunei, LHR, 2004
Finnair, Manchester, 2004
Emirates, LHR, 2006
United, LHR, 2008 (Court March 2009)
Thomson, Birmingham, 2009
American, LHR, 2009
United LHR 2009 (Court Feb 2010)

Taking into account that the UK has approaching 1 million departures per year, the majority of which have at least 2 pilots (more on long flights), a total of 7 pilots in 6 years may help put what some claim to be a ‘problem’ into proper perspective.

It's inevitable that such cases generate high profile news stories, partly because they are so rare and partly because they provide great scope for melodramatic reporting.

However, it is unfortunate (for the pilot concerned and for the reputation of professional pilots generally) that the press almost invariably describe the pilot as ‘drunk’ when, in almost all the cases, he/she was not drunk but exceeded the legal limit for pilots which is virtually zero.

(Edited to correct typos)

.

Airbubba

21st Feb 2010, 15:39

I don't claim to know about the UK but we've had at least seven pilots in six years pulled off the schedule for busting an alcohol test at my U.S. airline alone. I agree that it is a small percentage but some of these incidents are indeed handled quietly and with mixed results from what I've seen. Lyle Prouse has commented here on the individual roads he and his two fellow crewmembers took after the watershed Northwest alcohol incident in Fargo two decades ago.

A uniform and a Tiger Woods apology may get you a suspended sentence in Crown Court but you still have issues with the company, your licenses and your medical certificate.

On U.S. soil, American airlines can perform drug and alcohol tests on their own pilots, often positive results are handled without the involvement of local law enforcement authorities. However, outside the U.S. I don't believe the airline can perform these 'reasonable suspicion' tests so the airport police get involved. Or, in at least one case in my experience, the test is not done, the pilot is removed from the flight and deadheaded home after a rest period to be strongly encouraged to enter a HIMS rehab program.

Obviously, much of my alleged knowledge of the subject is anecdotal or based on personal observation from within the airline business. I would not deign to comment on the legal technicalities of a UK court and always appreciate your sage perspective on this aspect of a complex issue.