Is it possible to fly a Learjet on a PPL?

[rich_g85]

Hi all,
Was discussing my flying training with my (non aviation-minded) colleague at work earlier, and he asked me a question which I was unable to confidently answer.

What he asked effectively, was 'is it possible to fly something like a Learjet on a PPL and how much would it cost to rent one for an hour'.

Presumably you'd need a multi-engine rating - which I wasn't sure whether you need a CPL for?

Over to you....

[BackPacker]

You can fly *anything* on a PPL, provided that you have the appropriate type rating. And stay within the limits of your license, so you cannot get paid for the flight and have to pay at least an equal share of the direct costs of the flight.

However, the type rating exam for those kinds of aircraft are typically to ATPL standards. Which are kind of hard to achieve if you're just a fresh PPL without IR and ME experience.

Oh, and if the aircrafts POH or owners/operators AOC specifies that it's a multi-pilot aircraft, there may be other restrictions.

[dublinpilot]

Yes, but you'll need

need a type rating
(Possibly Multi Cockpit Crew course).

To make any practical use, you'd also need an IR.

As for the rental rate, you can get it on a great new finance scheme. You just have to pay a small deposit of 100%, and then you've no payments to make each month. ;) Seriously....good luck finding anyone to rent it to you ;)

[S-Works]

You will also need a HPA endorsement which is either achieved through the ATPL exams, holding an ICAO ATP exam pass or sitting the HPA exams.

[rich_g85]

Thanks - it was only a hypothetical question posed by a 'non-aviation' person. I'm not considering doing this!

[mad_jock]

Doesn't the Duke of Westminster fly his around on a PPL?

[englishal]

What is an HPA Endorsement?

[julian_storey]

What is an HPA Endorsement?

'High Performance Aircraft'.

An FAA requirement to fly any aircraft with MORE than 200bhp. You can do it with an FAA instructor in ANYTHING with more than 200bhp.

Getting a Lear Jet type rating should cover that :rolleyes:

[rich_g85]

HPA = High Performance Aircraft?

[IO540]

I don't think any of the jet Type Rating training outfits will take on somebody who doesn't already have an IR - as a crude but probably appropriate measure to filter out those without an adequate understanding of the aircraft systems.

[julian_storey]

And even if they did, a Lear Jet low level (outside of controlled airspace) would burn a horrifying amount of fuel and below 10,000ft would be restricted to 250kts.

John Travolta has Lear Jet, HS125 and Boeing 707 types (amongst others) on HIS PPL. He does have an instrument rating though :ok:

[englishal]

'High Performance Aircraft'.
Ah right, thanks...already have one of those....But one would need a high altitude endorsement ;)

[S-Works]

Actually..... The HPA is a JAA requirement. It is a High Performance Aeroplane rating and requires a distance learning course and a written exam. It is required if you do not have an ATPL or equivalent exam pass.

Getting a Lear type rating under JAA would not cover it and in fact you would not be able to do the type rating without it or the ATPl pass........

[englishal]

Get an N reg one then.....

[Tom_p]

Aircraft Grouping lease a Cessna 500 Citation for a mere £550 per hour wet. :ok:

It even has a toilet apparently, I dunno how the hell they manged to fit one in.

[pistongone]

I am sure i read that a ppl can fly a jet provost with a bit of training on one of their web sites? Does a Lear require more training and paper to fly than a military jet trainer?

[S-Works]

Ex-military jets are flown on a permit to fly and have an individual training course approved by type that each candidate undergoes. This then results in a type rating. The content of each course is judged on the operation complexity of the type. The JP as an example is a very simple VFR only permit aircraft.

A Lear as a complex IFR aircraft, pressurised etc. So the authorities have deemed that it requires HPA or ATPL/ATP level knowledge. The HPA elements really just look at human factors and performance and high altitude weather etc.

[IO540]

I've just seached faa.gov for John Travolta, and amazingly found him.

Type ratings:

P/B-707 P/B-720 P/CE-500 P/G-1159 P/HS-125 P/LR-JET

Limits:

ENGLISH PROFICIENT.AUTHORIZED EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT: SO-G2.B-707 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY.CE-500 (VFR ONLY).

But yes, he is just a ME PPL/IR :)

His B707 SIC-only privilege is interesting. I wonder why?

I know about the concession whereby one could log SIC time in a multi crew aircraft, with just a ME PPL, no IR and no TR, but this is a sub-ICAO privilege limited to the USA only. It was used by some pilots outside the USA but this scheme was stopped a few years ago.

JT does have a 707 TR so why only SIC? Is it that one needs to be an ATP to sit in the LHS of a ME jet of that size? I wouldn't have thought so.

[liam548]

And even if they did, a Lear Jet low level (outside of controlled airspace) would burn a horrifying amount of fuel and below 10,000ft would be restricted to 250kts.

John Travolta has Lear Jet, HS125 and Boeing 707 types (amongst others) on HIS PPL. He does have an instrument rating though :ok:

thought John had a CPL?

[liam548]

Doesn't the Duke of Westminster fly his around on a PPL?
cant find any info on this on google

[cat71]

Very interesting but think about it for a minute, if, I say IF you could ever find anyone who would let you use there LJ, what is actually an unquailified crew, the cost alone would break you and these days it would be hard to remain legal. The last LJ (LJ24)I flew cost roughly $1000.00 Can/hour just for fuel. Good luck
cat71:O

[julian_storey]

Ex-military jets are flown on a permit to fly and have an individual training course approved by type that each candidate undergoes. This then results in a type rating. The content of each course is judged on the operation complexity of the type. The JP as an example is a very simple VFR only permit aircraft.

Not sure that there's a JP type rating. They are usually operated under an exemption granted by the CAA following an approved course of training.


thought John had a CPL?

See IO540's post above :)


JT does have a 707 TR so why only SIC? Is it that one needs to be an ATP to sit in the LHS of a ME jet of that size? I wouldn't have thought so.

Fairly sure he would ONLY need an ATP to fly in command if it was a Part 135 operation.

[S-Works]

Not sure that there's a JP type rating. They are usually operated under an exemption granted by the CAA following an approved course of training.

Yes, you are quite right. I forgot it was in CAP632.

[tarnish26]

MAD JOCKDoesn't the Duke of Westminster fly his around on a PPL? From the Times...dont know if he was the private pilot though.


Gerald Grosvenor is considered a modest man. He sent his children to the local village primary school, does not care much for dining out and is proud of having worked his way up through the ranks to become head of the Territorial Army.
However, when he flew out to Iraq and Afghanistan in July for a five-day tour of duty, he rejected the 26-hour RAF flight made available to him. Instead, he hired a Learjet and private pilot, paying £4,000 for the round trip.
And why not? He is the 6th Duke of Westminster, Britain’s third richest man — worth £6.6 billion, according to The Sunday Times Rich List — and its richest property developer. Much of his wealth comes from the chunk of property he owns in London: his 100 acres of Mayfair and 200 acres of Belgravia makes him the capital’s biggest landlord.
Grosvenor, 54, heads one of four elite families who, together, control some of London’s finest addresses. Close behind comes the 8th Earl Cadogan, who has net assets of £1.9 billion that includes a 90-acre estate in Chelsea. Third and fourth, respectively, are the Hon Mary Czernin, 70, and the Howard de Walden family — whose holdings include Marylebone High Street and much of Harley Street — and the Portman estate, inherited by the 10th Viscount Portman, 48, and other family members in 1999 — which owns 110 acres of southern Marylebone, around Portman Square and Oxford Street, a spot beloved by celebrities including Madonna.

[MIKECR]

I wonder why he hired a lear, he has his own Citation X.

[Sam Rutherford]

4K for a 5 day round trip - I'd do the same.

Methinks the figures are wrong!

Sam.

[tarnish26]

Well it is the "Times" after all :}

[mad_jock]

I know he definitely used to have one of his own and used to operate himself with his wee dog.

We used to see him quite a bit up in INV.

And I would suggest that £4000 quid to fly from UK to Afghanistan in a Lear jet is way way to cheap you couldn't even cover the handling/overflight costs of the 4-5 tech stops.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I should imagine the CAA would insist on a pass in (at least) the CPL/ATPL 'gas turbines' and 'AC electrics' exams as well?

When I originally obtained my BCPL and AFI Rating the CAA would not issue the licence until I had passed the 'gas turbines' exam. I complained bitterly that I was only instructing on and flying in SEP aeroplanes, but they wouldn't have it. So my licence was initially issued only after having passed in the optional subject of Gas Turbines!

Bizarre but true!

KR

FOK

[englishal]

My mate flew David Cameron to Prague for the day in a King Air and it cost £10,000....

[mad_jock]

I suspect he took his own jet and payed £4000 for the services of another pilot who probably had an adventure of a lifetime.

And to add I think these days you need a valid multi engine IR and full set of ATPL valid exams before you can start any type rating. And also the MCC is its a dual crew aircraft.

But I don't think any of this applies to Monty because to my knowledge he has had the jet for 15 odd years and I doudt he has gone JAR.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

I had a friend who flew G J+T? for years on a PPL IR and SP too! He was/is an excellent pilot.

Whether the ruling has changed? His was a Citation two.
As for his £4000 costs? media rubbish as usual.

Even at 20 hrs round trip at a minimum of £1500 per hour you are looking at £30000 for the aircraft or £20000 done at bare cost.

Maybe they missed a 0 off the cost and it was £40000 which with crew and other costs would be nearer the mark for such a round trip!

Pace

[First_Principal]

'High Performance Aircraft'.

An FAA requirement to fly any aircraft with MORE than 200bhp. You can do it with an FAA instructor in ANYTHING with more than 200bhp.

Hmmm, so I guess I'm ok then with my DC3 rating, obviously it's a seriously high performance machine at around 24x that minimum :}

FP.

[S-Works]

The DC3 is a type rating. The HPA is meant to cover a class not a type.......

But then you knew that anyway and just wanted to tell us you had a DC3 rating.... :ok:

[mm_flynn]

FP,

FAA High Performance is specifically for piston powered aircraft (it is not relevant to turbojet aircraft as they all have a type rating requirement and don't have engines measured in horsepower output.).

In the FAA world anything with over 6000lb payload or 20 passenger capacity must be a part 125 operation (or 121 or 135 if AOC) and these operations need a CPL and certain minimum hours - which would explain JT's Second In Command limitation on the 707.

[BillieBob]

I should imagine the CAA would insist on a pass in (at least) the CPL/ATPL 'gas turbines' and 'AC electrics' exams as well?The pre-entry requirements for a first JAA multi-pilot type rating course are to:

Have completed 100hrs PIC of aeroplanes
Hold a valid MEIR
Have completed an MCC course
Have passed the ATPL(A) exams

[Heliplane]

You might find that the insurance premiums add to the cost!

I remember a discussion some years ago about the insurance premiums that would be charged for the new breed of micro jets (Cirrus Jet, Diamond Jet, etc). These aircraft are intended to be flown by the owner but there was talk of the premiums being very high, at least to begin with.

[mad_jock]

I couldn't comment on his piloting skills.

I only met him 3 times the first time I didn't have a clue who he was but he was very pleasant chatting to my student about trimming and how it gets easier with practise while he was waiting for the refueller.

Seemed to have a genuine love of aviation from what I could tell.

[jonkil]

Wonder what ratings you would need for this high performance animal :}

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/cricri/cricri-jet.jpg

[mad_jock]

big bollocks rating

[Sam Rutherford]

big perhaps, but not too heavy, and not to far forward or aft!:)

[Dan Winterland]

I think hyperthetically, the answer is yes. As to the question as to how you would go about it if you really wanted to do it, you would have to ask the CAA. Because it has probably not been done before, they will be thinking on their feet which means the answer would be different depending on who you ask, and what sort of mood they are in depending on whether they have just had lunch/enjoyed their coffee/got laid last night.

If I was that person in the CAA and being asked, I would say the sensible and logical answer is that if someone did want to fly a Learjet on a PPL, they should show a level of knowlegde to ATPL standard (as that is the environment they are going to be flying in), hold a valid type rating (as the Learjets are individual types and not covered by a class rating) and hold an IR (as they will probably end up IFR and need controlling at some point). And this answer is assuming that I had lobster for lunch, followed by a nice cappucino with chocolate sprinkles and a great shag last night.

So, to do all this, you would have to take the ATPL exams, have to do an initial IR and then complete a course of training, and then take a Licence Proficiency Test on type with an IR included (for which you would have to have enough experience and ability to pass which means you would have no problem with the professional GFTs). If you think about it, is what you have to do to get an ATPL in the first place - and which probably explains why no-one has done it.



Theoretically possible, but there's no point.

[12Watt Tim]

Surely John Travolta is restricted SIC because it is a multi-crew aircraft and he doesn't hold an ATP.

Oh, and I suspect the HPA course is enough, probably no need for the ATPLs. However don't you need an IR (with its own exams) and MEP to start a multi-engine type rating?

[tmmorris]

So where have I picked up the piece of information which is somewhere in my brain that a PPL is limited to 5.7 tons and 12 seats?

Did I invent that (seems rather precise if so!) or have I confused it with another restriction? (is that for example the restriction for SEP/MEP above which a type rating is required?)

Tim

[mm_flynn]

Surely John Travolta is restricted SIC because it is a multi-crew aircraft and he doesn't hold an ATP.

Not likely as is other type ratings are for multicrew aircraft are not limited to SIC. In addition, there is to my knowledge no limit on the size of aircraft that can be operated under part 125 - and this part makes no mention of an ATPL requirement.

The OPs question will have different detail answers depending on the registration, but there are definitely private pilots in the States that operate as PIC 'learjet' sized turbine aircraft ( Harrison Ford is a PPL Citation Driver - PPL/ME/IR type rated that is)

[XXPLOD]

Interesting thread but anyone who had the cash to own/operate a LJ would surely go down the conventional route of distance learning ATPLs then do a ME CPL IR?

Trying to go the PPL route is almost more work and as said would raise eyebrows with insurance companies. You'd need the HPA groundschool which not that many places offer. Then the IR groundschool which is 7 exams. So the groundschool requirements are really only a few months less work than doing the ATPLs anyway.

Flying training - you'd need the MEP rating, then a fair whack of MEP time I'd suggest, then do a ME IR - 55 hours and then the TR.

All in all, the difference between a PPL qualified on the LJ and a fATPL holder is really only a chunk of groundschool and a 15 hour CPL course. Given the costs involved, small beer!

[mad_jock]

The only reason why I could see you would want to do it is if you couldn't hold a class 1.

I suspect there are a few owner drivers out there but they will all be old CAA licenses. As has been said these days under the JAR regs there is no point at all not bothering with a CPL.

[IO540]

XXPLOD - it's different in the FAA / USA system.

Here, you do 14 exams for a CPL/IR. And that's after the 7 doing the PPL. In the USA, you do 1 for the PPL, 1 for the CPL, 1 for the IR and 1 for the ATPL. Here, you are given an ATPL after clocking up the hours. There, the ATPL is extra work as I mention (though you still need the 1500hrs in both cases).

Also, the USA has no Class A below 18000ft, which means quite a lot of heavy iron can be flown - if not exactly efficiently - without an IR.

The USA has no type ratings below 12500lb (5700kg) unless it is a turboJET (in general).

[BillieBob]

I think hyperthetically, the answer is yes.Nothing hyperthetical (or hypothetical come to that) about it, the answer is yes
....they will be thinking on their feet....Not true, the requirements are quite clearly laid down in JAR-FCL 1 (see my previous post)
So, to do all this, you would have to take the ATPL exams, have to do an initial IR and then complete a course of training, and then take a Licence Proficiency Test on type with an IR includedAlmost right - you would have to pass the ATPL exams, hold a MEIR and, before completing an approved type rating course and passing a Licence Skill Test (not a Licence Proficiency Check), also complete an MCC course. (see my previous post)
You'd need the HPA groundschool which not that many places offerNot true, you need to pass the ATPL(A) exams (see my previous post)
So the groundschool requirements are really only a few months less work than doing the ATPLs anyway.Not true, the groundschool requirements are to do the ATPLs (see my.......oh, what the hell, why bother.