AF 447 Search to resume

[ChristiaanJ]

... like anything requiring international agreement, it to will take time to implement them.It will also take a lot of design work, a lot of certification work, and a lot of money, to see it implemented world-wide....

CJ

[mm43]

Christiaan J;

I should have said that, thanks.:ouch:

One of the upsides I sense from doubling the battery capacity, is the surface area of the ULB will increase commensurately, giving better acoustic coupling to the water, which will be slightly offset by the lowering of the frequency.

[JD-EE]

Hi, Ian, welcome to the show er place. {^_-}

Doesn't pay MY wages or even my retirement. I designed electronics, notably significant assemblies on the GPS satellites and military and civilian satcom equipment until I started developing software for both show control and broadcast station video playout and effects.

I had my tongue firmly emplanted in my (thinks back) left cheek at the time.

(Way back in the 60s I rather wished I could be a pilot. But my eyesight without glasses pretty well guaranteed no military flying, which then seemed to be the canonical way into a cockpit job. At the time they ignored the fact that contact lenses corrected me better than 20/12 and I had an accommodation range so wide I could focus on 1 mil gold wires on integrated circuit assemblies. So, I never got there. These days I can't for medical reasons. I still have a LONG time fascination with the concept of flying and the men who can do it safely and well.)

{^_-} Joanne

[crHedBngr]

Bearfoil, are the warm meat cargo specimens willing to pay for the cost of FDR and CVR over satellite?JD-EE: This warm meat cargo specimen would be willing to do so. :)

I found it a really interesting episode, hopefully we will one day find out how accurate their conclusions.

Agreed.

[W2k]

Some good (as far as I can tell) input on the NOVA episode at Flight Level 390 (http://goo.gl/nGVkF), blog of an active Airbus skipper.

There seems to be some censoring in this forum against B_l_o_g_s_p_o_t (comes out ********) so I created a shortlink: Flight Level 390: AF 447... Part 3 (http://goo.gl/nGVkF)

The show portrays the pilots as confused and trying to understand the multiple warnings being thrown at them from Fi-Fi's electronic monitoring system as they penetrate the storms. The co-pilot is seen looking through a Quick Reference Checklist. I can (mostly) guarantee you that this was the furthest thing from their minds.

"Fi-Fi" is the blogger's name for the Airbus.

[bearfoil]

Most of that blog was lifted almost verbatim from comments early on by poster Will Fraser. Talk about leftovers and plagiarism.

OOOhhhhh.........ICE. Smilin' Ed warned us ages ago... "No Autopilot into severe turbulence..." 447's investigation is not helped, imo, by rehashing (for drama), the imagined circumstances of emotions and coffee on the Mark II eyeball.

I'm waiting for the new Phase Four, I got a feelin'.

bear

[mm43]

Lightning bolts from all directions! .... Capt Dave has conveniently forgotten that no sign of electrical activity was detected in the ITCZ during the time in question. That's not to say that the violent turbulence he has portrayed didn't happen.

In the middle of the night, there are no surprises when lightning starts to dance through the cloud tops .... unless you are are unlucky enough to trigger the first discharge.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

[auv-ee]

Some updated information about the REMUS-6000 vehicles, to be used in the Phase 4 search, is contained in this article:

Robot Submarines Seek A Downed Plane’s Secrets | Gizmodo Australia (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/02/robot-submarines-seek-a-downed-planes-secrets/)

It seems to have a mixture of useful information and the fuzzy detail that is typical in journalism.

[mm43]

It seems to have a mixture of useful information . . . .
Looks like the author did a little research, and actually spoke to those "in the know".

[auv-ee]

Looks like the author did a little research, and actually spoke to those "in the know".

Agreed. It's just that details get lost, diminished or exaggerated in the process of writing.

[mm43]

Originally posted by auv-ee;
It's just that details get lost, diminished or exaggerated . . .Not fully understanding the complexities of the subject, probably plays a major part, and I doubt that there are many (or any) journalists qualified and experienced to handle the subject competently and in-depth.

[Machinbird]

MV Alucia has arrived in the Pacific anchorage of the Panama Canal this morning, 2/28/2011.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?level0=100)
Select vessel name for track information.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from JD-EE:
...I still have a LONG time fascination with the concept of flying and the men who can do it safely and well.

Only the fairer sex could get away with that one, Joanne. ;)

[bearfoil]

Gender

With respect, and not wishing to play the pedantic p---k, I will say without equivocation the absolute winner in the Bearfoil best Captain Sweepstakes is a.........Lady.

She is Tall, Blonde, and attractive. She is consummately professional, and tolerates no nonsense within a fuselage length of her chair. Those who have flown with her know whereof I speak. In pursuit of some long forgotten certificate, it was my pleasure to be one of her students. She was younger, lower time, and a girl. How could she have the best chops in the front?? She did, and she does.

That'll teach me.

bear

[JD-EE]

Indeed, there a lot of good woman pilots. I've had a few on flights I have taken and they managed to put the plane down quite neatly. And they were a little more dignified with their takeoff gyrations required by local rules than the men at the same airport.

But, gee, give a lady (well, woman) a break. I don't find them nearly as interesting as the men. (I hear women, with a diaper, can pull more Gs than male fighter pilots. They're still "ho-hum" to me.)

{^_-}

[bearfoil]

I am most pleased the discussion has turned to pilots and pilotage.

Absent an offense by Aliens, 447 was lost due to fully understandable events. I venture to say the answers have been broached here, and most likely with great repetition. Dollars to dimes it involved more than a mere hiccup. Human error. Mechanical?? Who built what?? Marc DuBois. Captain DuBois. He and two brothers bear the brunt of suspicion, for that is the way. I doubt he would have it any other way. The only thing certain before the Alucia begins, is that there lurks in aviation a virtual certainty that there will be Death. It is a Human endeavour, Flight.

[electric-chris]

I found this website to be a little more helpful for tracking the Alucia because it shows the last known position even if it is several days old. You do have to register (free) to see some of the data though.

Vessel details ALUCIA (other type of ship) MMSI: 356352000 IMO: 7347823 vessel info and position - Digital-Seas.com (http://www.digital-seas.com/vessel_search/vessel_details/on/alucia_q29364.html)

It appears to have made it through the canal.

[mm43]

It appears to have made it through the canal.I'm afraid not. 2011-03-02 07:33z 8.91774N 79.5127W and at anchor in the Pacific Anchorage. Would seem that the vessel hasn't a confirmed booking and will pass through at the Canal Authority's convenience.

EDIT :: There are currently scheduling delays for the canal transit due to a 7 year US$5.25 billion canal expansion program which includes additional locks, widening and deepening.

[Bobman84]

Keep the updates coming regarding the search progress and hopefully all other banter can be put on hold for now.

[broadreach]

As of right now (00:30z Alucia is still at the anchorage off Balboa awaiting a slot through the Panama Canal. Since none of us has been able to pick her up on AIS since she left Seattle, aside from a quick glimpse when she passed the US/Mexico border, we can assume that, if she has an AIS satellite transmitter (as the previous search ships had and used), she's not been using it.

For those of us who would like to follow the search efforts, we will have to wait and see whether the Alucia shows up on the AIS services that pick up satellite transmissions when she arrives/leaves Recife and is en-route to the search area. We'll know soon enough.

[Dehaene]

Hello,

First post for me but I am following af447 threads from the beginning.

ALUCIA will go through the channel tomorrow:
see http://www.pancanal.com/evtms-rpts/dis-05.pdf

Best regards

[Machinbird]

Thank you Dehaene. That is good news.:ok:
I was amazed it took so long to get scheduled for the transit.

[Diversification]

What is AIS:
The UN-organisation, IMO, in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) requires AIS to be fitted aboard international voyaging ships with gross tonnage (GT) of 300 or more tons, and all passenger ships regardless of size. AIS regularly transmits data on VHF in order to avoid collisions with other ships. It is estimated that more than 40,000 ships currently carry AIS class A equipment. In 2007 (wikipedia), the new Class B AIS standard was introduced which enabled a new generation of low cost AIS transceivers. This has triggered multiple additional national mandates from Singapore, China, Turkey and North America affecting hundreds of thousands of more vessels. The system is partly developed in Sweden and uses the STDMA protocol invented by Håkan Lans.
Regards

[mm43]

Originally postedby Machinbird;

I suspect that there may be a misunderstanding of what AIS can do.I believe you may have misinterpreted Broadreach's post.
Broadreach has particularly been seeking AIS position reporting through satellite data acquisition.
Broadreach provided me with the twice daily positions of the "Seabed Worker" and the "Anne Candies" during the Phase 3 search.
Most administrations require that ships report their positions twice daily, and those same reports are acquired by Lloyds Intelligence.
Depending on a the web based provider's access to AIS data obtained by local terrestrial receiving stations, users of those web based products will be able to see plots of ships within range of each station.
Real-time satellite data packages are available as a small clip-on to the existing terrestrial packages, and can be programed to supply data as required to a specified end-user, e.g. continuously, or periodically via Low Earth Orbiting (LEO) satellites.Generally, the transmission of the marine Automatic Identification System data on both of the marine VHF channels 87B (161.975 MHz) and 88B (162.025 MHz is mandatory for vessels of 300 gross registered tons and over. Exceptions are notably for naval vessels, and at the master's discretion, e.g. when the transmission of positional information may lead to the vessel being intercepted by pirates.

Note :: The designed for use of AIS is as a collision avoidance system, whereby shipboard plotters display the relevant position, track, speed and rate of turn data, along with vessel identification and size of those vessels within VHF range of their ship. In other words it is the marine version of aeronautical secondary radar, but instead of being land-based, is ship-based - TCAS style.

This Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System) article is comprehensive and up to date.

[Machinbird]

I believe you may have misinterpreted Broadreach's postThat is correct. Broadreach understands AIS in much greater detail than I presently do.:O
He has been involved in setting up these systems in a number of ports.

[mm43]

The vessel left the Panama Pacific Anchorage at 2011-03-05 2100z to commence her northbound transit of the Panama Canal. At 2115z - appears to be waiting for a pilot just to the west of her original anchorage, which has been taken by a cruise ship, the "Island Princess".

[Dehaene]

In fact, the canal is currently used for southbound ships.
The pipe must be emptied before northbound can start again.
We have to wait for about 5 boats i.e. 2 hours.

[bearfoil]

POI

An interesting tidbit: As Alucia heads into the Atlantic from the Pacific, she will be heading Westerly. And drop two meters, Net.

[mm43]

Originally posted by Dehaene;
The pipe must be emptied before northbound can start again.They have already started the Northbound with the "Whitney Bay" and "Alucia" at 2230z.

Miraflores west lock is being used for northbound traffic.

[Dehaene]

Yes, it seems that they now use both ways simultaneously.

Alicia just appeared on Miraflores Locks WebCam Multimedia - PanCanal.com (http://www.pancanal.com/eng/photo/camera-java.html?cam=Miraflores)

[JD-EE]

2319z has Alucia approaching the Mirafloras locks, the first of the three sets on her passage through the canal.

Edit: Hm, fiddling with the map I found more information.

The Whitney Bay is in the lead. And there are four ships still coming South to get through if they truly run only one way at a time. One of the four is just about clearing the locks at this moment. It looks like Alucia and Whitney Bay are going to get into the locks going North before the pipeline is cleared.

Go to the pancanal.com site and you can find live video of the passage if you get there soon enough.

[mm43]

At 2326z the "Whitney Bay" & "Alucia" are entering Miraflores west.

Multimedia - PanCanal.com (http://www.pancanal.com/eng/photo/camera-java.html)

[JD-EE]

They are in the lock. The lock is closing. And a ship just entered the other end going South, on the other lane of course.
2135z

[mm43]

There are 2 lock chambers, and you will see the vessels again (if sufficient lighting) when they are in or leaving the second chamber on the High Resolution camera.

[JD-EE]

There is sufficient lighting. They turned on the lights. I guess they like to see what they are doing.

[Chris Scott]

On the webcam, looks like Alucia is exiting the Miraflores lock behind Whitney Bay now?

How many hopes and prayers must go with her...

(0025z Now see from map that Alucia has exited, leaving Whitney Bay behind.)

Thanks for all the links, you guys.

[auv-ee]

For any who missed it: Alucia leaves Mirasflores lock...

http://i52.tinypic.com/33o17oh.gif (animated gif)

[JD-EE]

For reference the Alucia is in the Western middle Gatun lock at the time this message was posted. So I suspect she'll be on her way and again out of our sight until she gets to Recife, estimated on the 18th at "22:11 (UTC)". I am amazed or at least bemused at the "precision" here. Gee, if she hits it on the head that says something about the sloppiness of airline flights, doesn't it?

(Grinning, ducking, running ->>>> THAT WAY FAST!) ->>>>>>>>>>>

[Dehaene]

She is still visible.
She dropped anchor at Colon on the other side of the Canal.

Ship trip are sooo slow...

[mm43]

I am amazed or at least bemused at the "precision" here.The accuracy involved is mind boggling when you consider that with a known distance and a best guess average speed, the computer doesn't understand such subtleties and the answer is always to x decimal places!

In any-case the best guess average speed appears to be 10.75 knots, and I suspect they will be lucky to maintain that, as for starters, the leg ENE to the north of Colombia is often subject to a strong ENE wind with accompanying sea and swells. After passing Curacao the winds will be lighter, but the surface current sets along the coast to the WNW and will peg back their GS.

Edit ::
ETA Recife 201103182011z per "Alucia" AIS
Last Pos'n. 201103061602z 9 43'N 79 31'W Distance 3141NM
Period 12 days 4 hours 09 min = 292.15 Hours
3142/292.15 = 10.75 knots

[broadreach]

Alucia's last position picked up by AIS was leaving Colon at 18:01z, and where she gives an ETA Recife of 18 March which is consistent with a speed of 12kn for the distance of 3,161nm. The last AIS data shows her at 12.9kn - consistent with wanting to get the hell away from the anchorage and arriving ships and into open water where the crew can settle into a routine for the next eleven days :)

Don't expect to see much of her until she passes Aruba and then north of Trinidad. Unless she surprises us and begins transmitting her position by satellite.

[broadreach]

Totally off-thread but remotely related and on a lighter note: no need to run JD; a lot of us rely on the aviation equivalent of AIS to track where in the world our so-mobile family members are, so we know what time to head for the airport etc.

That's what I was doing on Saturday evening. And Sunday morning. And Sunday evening. Mrs b was returning from Miami to Rio on a flight that went tech for 16 hours. Mrs b is quiet, patient (she would be, considering who she married), pretty organized, understands that tech happens and prefers, when in doubt, to stay on terra firma until all's fixed.

And, for Lomapaseo's interest, she also comments favourably on what she sees as great forbearance and good communication from the flight deck in the pre-departure confusion. She is not amongst the group who are suing :)!

[HarryMann]

The UN-organisation, IMO, in its International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) requires AIS to be fitted aboard international voyaging ships with gross tonnage (GT) of 300 or more tons, and all passenger ships regardless of size. AIS regularly transmits data on VHF in order to avoid collisions with other ships. It is estimated that more than 40,000 ships currently carry AIS class A equipment

Is this how Somali pirates seem to know just where their next target ship is and seem to manage to intercept so easily?

[broadreach]

A ship can switch off its AIS transmitter easily and I think most in the Indian Ocean do so. Whether they turn off the satellite transmitter as well as the VHF one, I wonder: there are pros and cons there. I've no doubt the Somali pirate backers (and many other organisations interested in targeting vessels with potentially juicy returns) have access to both. But so do the naval forces in the region. If you turn off the satellite tracking you disappear from the naval forces' screens as well. Sod's Law.

[mm43]

The trouble with the Somali pirates, is that they will proceed many 100's of miles off the coast, and they themselves will not be detected by other ship's AIS. But they are equipped with a receive only AIS, and the rest is history.

It's a bit difficult to convince naval craft that you have a good reason not to have your AIS running when 200 miles or more from the coast, but as you know, the results are seen every day. The stuff that makes it to the media, is just the tip of the iceberg.

[dfish]

I just watched this documentary on AF447, they suggest that super-cooled water vapour frooze the pitot tubes causing multiple system failures. The documentary can be seen here.

Lost: Mystery of Flight 447 - The Passionate Eye | CBC News Network (http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/passionateeyeshowcase/2011/lost/)

[wes_wall]

Not available outside of Canada.

[auv-ee]

The trailer for the CBC program can be viewed outside of Canada. That shows it to be basically the same program as both the one that aired on the BBC last year in the UK, and the re-narrated version that aired on PBS/NOVA last month in the USA. The trailer notes that the broadcast coincides with the start of the Phase 4 search, so possibly it has a little information added, but likely not.

[Machaca]

There is really just one (speculative) documentary, produced by Darlow Smithson Productions. It was aired last year by the BBC in the UK and the PBS program NOVA in the US, and now by the CBC in Canada.


wes_wall -- you may view it here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/crash-flight-447.html).

[broadreach]

And as for the "Alucia", last picked up by AIS north of Trinidad on 11 March, doing 11.8 knots. The ETA Recife, 18 March I think it was, looks good.

[MountainBear]

BBC News - Airbus faces manslaughter charges over Rio crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12777474)

Well, it's about time they started blaming someone. <sarcasm>

[BOAC]

That's new Ferraris and Porsches all round then for the legal teams. Trying to make liability stick with an unknown cause will produce hours of invoices.

[bearfoil]

An argument over French v English Law is the last thing I want to see here. This 'charge', I think should be looked at with an eye toward discovery, rather than "Culpability".

The ultimate responsibility lies with the carrier, and the manufacturer.

My opinion from the outset is that BEA has invited this sorry situation with its arrogant, flimsy, and parochial attitudes, expressed in its public disclosures, and an unwillingness to simply pursue the truth of the matter.

A long discussion of arcane and unpopular minutiae has come and gone. The Families know the depth of studied nonchalance exhibited by the principals, and their thinly disguised agendas.

The Pilots acted, the Families have acted, Now the Law. Inevitable.

Alucia. Bon chance.

[Chris Scott]

The BBC story also states that the Alucia search is being funded by Airbus and Air France. Has the BEA given up?

[EDIT] It would appear not:

The New Undersea Search Campaign (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/new.undersea.campaign.php)

[Jazz Hands]

Exhibit A is at the bottom of the ocean. Court adjourned. :hmm:

[ChristiaanJ]

An argument over French v English Law is the last thing I want to see here. I hope too that such bickering can be avoided.
This 'charge', I think should be looked at with an eye toward discovery, rather than "Culpability".It also allows the parties involved a more complete and legal access to the various "dossiers".
'Bearfoil', I suppose you did use 'discovery' in its legal sense?

[Turbine D]

Nurse! Someone let the judge watch the AF show on the BBC, Nurse! NURSE!:(

[bearfoil]

Discovery in the legal manner, yes. This has some interesting implications, relative to the investigation. At this stage, I think responsibilty is assumed, that is, the carrier and the Manufacturer.

The focus is now on the recorders, evidence in the legal sense, and not just pro per, iow to be utilized and "reported" by involved parties. There is a new party, the French Judiciary. Ownership is not to the BEA, but to the court, I would think. I cannot imagine the Court allowing even the "appearance" of impropriety, thus the boxes must not be touched by the accused. It will be interesting to follow the role of the BEA. Friend of the Court, I would assume, now. The expense of the recovery should of course be assumed by the accused, but they should be billed at a later date, after a complete accounting has been accomplished, to remove any hint of "follow the money".

Will the Court be satisfied in allowing BEA to take possession? (Should they be found). Or will an officer of the Court establish first and primary chain of custody? Crash investigations have always seemed incestuous to me, the ultimate goal somewhat clouded by the "buddy system".

In a case where no good whatever can come from the discovery of the Truth of the matter for the players, they should be prevented from involvement in any search for evidence, excepting advice and data they possess.

Christiaan, I defer completely to your assessment of the legalities. There has been a total turn in events.

[mm43]

Will the Court be satisfied in allowing BEA to take possession?

The BEA is the body charged with the investigation of French aviation accidents, and as such I assume that their diligence in pursuing that objective will not be hindered by the judicial system.

However, as the applied jurisprudence in most democracies is assumed to be unfettered by vested interests, including arms of the state, some judicial oversight is to be expected in all that happens from this point and onwards.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Anyway ..if the black boxes are recovered ... they must receive (when output from sea) a judicial seal affixed by a responsible person from the french Ministry of Justice.
And when return in France for analyse (or other place) this seal must be broken under the supervision of responsible person from the french Ministry of Justice
This for prevent any (possible) manipulations

[bearfoil]

It makes sense. I pray the families are at some stage relieved of this unknown.

[Basil]

BBC News - Air France charged in Rio flight crash investigation (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12785906)

[Neptunus Rex]

How sad. If the allegation of the 'sensors' giving false data were true (and can be proven in court, which I doubt) it is most unlikely that any competent First Officer, let alone Captain, could not fly 'Power + Attitude for Performance,' and retrieve the situation.

This trial will not yield any conclusive result; how could it when most of the evidence will be conjecture? So, another major score for Sue, Grabbit and Runne, and, of course, for the 'expert witnesses' from both sides, most of whom will contradict each other.

Quelle farce!

[broadreach]

Alucia's arriving Recife now. On schedule.
In fact she's gone past Recife and appears to be heading for Suape, just south.

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, broadreach.

Quote from the BEA, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:
"The search vessel Alucia will leave its home port in Seattle at the beginning of February to sail towards the port of Suape (Brazil) via the Panama canal. There it will load the Geomar REMUS and the participants in the expedition around 15 March so as to be in the search area approximately five days later."

The New Undersea Search Campaign (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/new.undersea.campaign.php)

Wold you say the schedule has slipped by about 6 days?

[mm43]

Thanks Broadreach.

Now, I wonder why I posted -
The dive support vessel "Alucia" departed Harbor Island, Seattle, WA at 10/1430z for Port Suape, Brazil via the Panama Canal. on 10 Feb?

[ChristiaanJ]

From the BEA site:It appeared, however, that airplane certification standards did not cover all of the conditions that could be encountered in clouds at high altitude. The BEA made a recommendation aimed at better defining these conditions and consequently reviewing the certification criteria, in particular those of Pitot tubes. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) took this recommendation into account and is undertaking the corresponding research.Didin't some of the certification standards date back to 1947 ?

Is there any news about what's going on with this particular issue at the moment?

AF447 was not the only flight affected by this issue.

[ChristiaanJ]

Now, I wonder why I posted...The answer is simple.....
You kept US briefed.
Clearly not the remit of the BEA.....

Continue to keep US briefed, please.

[broadreach]

Yes of course, broadreach remembers now, Suape it was, Chris and MM43 are absolutely correct. Fading memory cells this end. But she DID give Recife as her destination on leaving Panama.... :O
And AIS, having realized it's Friday evening, has decided to go AWOL and give the techies something to do over the weekend. :O:O

[mm43]

PHASE 4 - Sea search operations

This is to inform you that a media advisory will take place on the harbor of Suape on Monday, March 21st, 2011 at 11:30 AM sharp after the arrival of the Vessel Alucia into Suape next weekend.
During the media advisory you will have the opportunity to visit the Alucia, make video recordings of the Remus as well as conduct interviews with Dave Gallo, Director of special projects and Mike Purcell, Expedition Leader, from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.
Jean-Paul Troadec, Director of the BEA , the safety authority in charge of the investigation into the accident of Airbus A330 – AF Flight 447 will be meeting with the search team in Suape.

The full press release can be found at:- AF447 - Information, 14 March 2011 (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/info14march2011.php)

[Chris Scott]

Oh bother, I missed that one the other day. But they didn't give much notice, did they? Three days' notice to register. Pity it's too late now; otherwise we could have asked broadreach to take time off for a long day's jolly up to Recife. ;)

[auv-ee]

News stories from today's press conference are starting to appear. This one contributes no new information, but has some nice pictures, including some in the side bar to the right.

Airbus e Air France retomam operação para localizar as caixas-pretas | Últimas notícias | Diario de Pernambuco - O mais antigo jornal em circulação na América Latina (http://www.diariodepernambuco.com.br/nota.asp?materia=20110321160926)

The Portuguese/English translation provided by Google:

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diariodepernambuco.com.br%2Fnota.asp%3Fma teria%3D20110321160926)

says:

On board the vessel will be three mini-submarines REMUS 6000, the same that allowed the location of the wreck of the Titanic.which is not correct, considering that the wreck was located in 1985; perhaps this is a translation error. However, the REMUS 6000s did visit the Titanic last summer to participate in a survey of the wreck and debris field.

EDIT:

This German article has better technical information and gives the viewpoint from IMF-GOMAR, who are providing one of the REMUS-6000s. I think all of this information is known in this group.

Neue Suche nach vermisstem Air France Airbus (http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/213625/)

Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uni-protokolle.de%2Fnachrichten%2Fid%2F213625%2F)

[broadreach]

Thanks for the suggestion, Chris. Fortunately, I missed the BEA release as well or I might have been tempted.

The advantage of Suape over Recife is that it's well removed and a pain to get into, ergo less journalists and other interested parties. Even so, given the size of the Alucia one suspects there would have been little room to swing a cat this morning.

And, as from now on, little fresh news - sans spin - regarding the search is likely to appear unless it arrives indirectly via MM43's or others' contacts.

[mm43]

Information + interpretation = misinformaton (http://www.euroweeklynews.com/2011032286369/news/international/air-france-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter.html)

There's nothing more to say!

[mm43]

Information, 23 March 2011

The "Alucia" departed Suape (Brazil) on 22 March, 2011 at 2320z.

Link to press release and BEA video (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/sea.search.ops.phase.4.php) made in Suape.

[mm43]

The following is the English translation of the video commentary.
In a few hours, a final search operation attempting to locate the wreckage of Air France flight 447 will be launched from this harbor, in Suape, Brazil.

A crew of 34 has been deployed for this operation that will last 16 weeks and use 3 autonomous underwater vehicles to locate the wreckage.

The operation is smaller than the last one, but it is designed to cover the search area in 4 months.

Over the last 12 months, the BEA has been adjusting its strategic approach.

Jean-Paul Troadec, Director of the BEA, comments:

"Last time, our strategy targeted a relatively limited area, located in the North West region of the perimeter where we believe the crash occurred. This time, we are going to survey the entire area inside the circle. This was not previously done."

The strategy adopted may be different, but a high level of determination remains:

"This is a really peculiar situation. There are very few instances in which accidents occurred and we were not able to either explain their causes or retrieve flight recorders".

The crew will deploy autonomous underwater vehicles called REMUS 6000, able to operate at depths to 20,000 ft. and navigate over rough terrain. The three vehicles were used at the site in 2010 and demonstrated their effective sonar detection performance and photographic recording abilities.

At the head of this flotilla, Mike Purcell, of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, who is the chief of sea search operations.

Mike Purcell (WHOI) discusses tactical operations:

"We are going to start searching north of the aircraft's last known position, close to the area where last year's operation ended. Survey, in the first leg, will cover unsearched terrain in a circular area extending 20 nautical miles around the last known position. Some areas may prove more difficult to search considering their rough terrain, but we feel very confident about the ability of REMUS' vehicles to find the plane wreckage."

The search operation is under the authority of the BEA. A specifically appointed safety investigator will remain onboard at all times. Airbus and Air France will cover the financial cost of this operation, estimated at $12.5 million.

Jean Claude Vital, BEA safety investigator, comments:

"I will act as liaison between the crew and fellow investigators of the BEA. When we locate the wreckage, I will start identification and validation procedures before moving on to phase #5."

The search could last up to 100 days and extend over 10,000 km^2. The BEA would then dispatch 3 consecutive onboard investigators. Should the accident site be located, the BEA will immediately move on to phase #5, and focus on retrieving the flight recorders for analysis.

[Chris Scott]

Everyone hopes that part or all of Charlie Papa's remains will be found this weekend or soon after, but we have to continue to be realistic. The BEA is interestingly vague about the deadline of Phase 4.

"The search could last up to 100 days..."
"... this operation... will last 16 weeks [112 days]..."
"The operation... is designed to cover the search area in 4 months [~122 days]."

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that.

[Bobman84]

Hope they find it this time. I'm really curious how complete the plane might be or what exactly happened as is everyone else.

Wish them all the luck.

[mm43]

The "Alucia" has arrived in the proposed search area, and my interpretation of press releases is that the search will commence in the north sector of the 20NM radius circle and progress southwards. A reposting of a previous BEA graphic with additional enhancements will provide a general indication of the area the "Alucia" will now be working in.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2cr7fcn.jpg

EDIT :: For clarification, the yellow circles are drawn at multiples of 10NM radii from the Last Known Position. The initial Phase 4 search is concentrating within 20NM radius of the LKP, and the remaining area out to 40NM will eventually be searched if required.

[Capetonian]

I don't know how you professionals will view this article, but I think it explains well in laymans' terms some theories that have done the rounds.

Aviation accidents: The Difference Engine: Wild blue coffin corner | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/03/aviation_accidents&fsrc=nwl)

[auv-ee]

Last week WHOI issued a press release that provides some additional technical detail that has not appeared accurately before.

News Release : WHOI Conducts Latest Search for Air France Flight 447 : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=95149&ct=162)

It says that BEA plans to issue weekly updates.

[mm43]

Capetonian

One of the better newspaper articles on the subject. Readable and without any wild assumptions about what did or didn't happen.

The readers comments show the full range of opinion, misconstrued or otherwise.

[Chris Scott]

I was also impressed. In general terms, the description of flight at subsonic-jet cruising altitudes is remarkably well-informed by journalistic standards, including the part about coffin corner. Well above average.

17000m is normally on the high side for the tropopause, even in the tropics (was it that high for AF447?). The quoted 25-knot envelope at 10600m (FL350) seems about right, provided you are considering IAS rather than TAS. That doesn't represent most pilots' idea of being close to coffin corner.

[HazelNuts39]

At the time of the accident, AF447's "coffin corner" was at FL460. Shortly before that, the airplane was in cruise at FL350, M.82 (280 kCAS). The available range of safe speeds at that altitude was from M.58 (192 kCAS) to M.86 (295 kCAS). It would take 2.5 minutes to decelerate from M.82 to M.58, the low-speed boundary for the onset of perceptible buffet, in level flight at zero thrust, and somewhat longer at idle.

Regards,
HN39

[mm43]

17000m is normally on the high side for the tropopause, even in the tropics (was it that high for AF447?).Possibly a handwritten 1 has been transcribed as 7.

...m.......ft......°C
10999 36089 -56.3 ISA at tropopause
10668 35000 -54.1 ISA (AF447 - forecast -46°C)
09448 31000 -46.2 "

[Chris Scott]

Thanks for the AF447 specifics, HN39,

I am reminded that the 25 kts envelope I was thinking of has MMO at the top end and VLS at the bottom. At this late hour (and the wretched clocks about to go forward from real time to big-brother summer time here) I'm not going to try and look up the definition of VLS in the cruise; but it is way above the 1g buffet, of course. Of the order of 1.3g?


Thanks for the AF447 trop figure, mm43,

It's remarkably low for the tropics, considering that the standard atmosphere uses 11000m (36090ft) -56.5C, (and tends to represent temperate latitudes) - almost exactly the same. There could have been a very big step-up at the frontal ("ITF") edge, I suppose?

[HazelNuts39]

Chris;

VLS in the cruise is probably(*) defined as 1.3 g to buffet onset, which is M 0.675 (226 kCAS) for AF447.

According to Tim Vasquez' analysis, the tropopause level was 15295 m. What is the importance?

Regards,
HN39

PS:: (*)Buffet onset varies with C.G., while the stall speed (Vs1g, V-alphamax) per regulatory definition is at forward C.G. (17%). I don't know what convention Airbus uses for VLS in the cruise with respect to C.G. My values are for C.G.=37%.

[Chris Scott]

Sorry, HN39,

I'm unable to say whether the displayed VLS allows for cg position, or how much difference it makes. The FMGC certainly calculates where the current CG is, expressed in terms of %MAC (mean aerodynamic chord), but relies on correct crew entry of the ZFW CG. I don't know if there is any independent in-flight verification of current CG.

[In the case of current AUW (gross weight/mass), the FAC (not sure if it's called that on the A330) calculates current AUW independently of the FMGC (so if the crew enters the wrong ZFW before departure, the assumed AUW is not grossly affected).]

By the way, for anyone puzzled, 1.3g is equivalent to a balanced turn with 39 degrees bank. Flying at the 1g-buffet speed is for test flights only. As HN39 indicates, the true "coffin corner" is where the 1g-buffet speed equals MMO [see Editorial Correction below]. Fortunately, very few aircraft (and certainly no airliners) have enough high-altitude thrust to get up there. Flying "on the 1.3g buffet" is fine if you are in reasonably smooth air, and not planning on using more than about 15 degrees of bank.


Quote:
According to Tim Vasquez' analysis, the tropopause level was 15295 m. What is the importance?

I think it is important, and that is very different from the figure (10999m) quoted by mm43.

Flight in the vicinity of a clearly-defined tropopause ("trop.") ** is an unsettled affair. (For the uninitiated, met books traditionally described climb above the trop. as being isothermal; in practice there is a distinct rise in temperature initially as you climb through it.) In level flight, every time you encounter the mixing layer, the SAT (and therefore TAT) go all over the place, affecting IAS and IMN (indicated Mach), the engine thrust changes spontaneously, and the W/V changes. If they had been cruising in and out of the trop., they would have been in that regime. Also, they might have been in and out of the tops of Cbs. (Again for the uninitiated, the trop. acts like a saucepan lid, because of the inversion of temperature associated with it.) That itself is uncomfortable, but unlikely to be accompanied by icing/precipitation.

On the other hand, if the trop. was over 4000m above them (typical in those latitudes), the regime would have been very different. Better in terms of stability away from Cbs; but in the midst of the cells if they entered Cbs. That means severe turbulence, probable precipitation with icing, and high risk of lightning strikes.


** "Trop." is flight-crew slang for "tropopause", and is not to be misinterpreted as meaning troposphere, which is the volume of air between the tropopause and the earth.

[Editorial Correction]
Following HN39's post #2842, the sentence highlighted in red is amended as follows:
"The true 'coffin corner' is the altitude at which, flying at 1g, the onset of the low-speed buffet occurs at the same speed as the onset of the high-speed buffet. In this case, the high-speed buffet occurs at a speed below MMO."

[Dengue_Dude]

Who pays for this extra search, come to that, who's paid up to now?

[auv-ee]

Who pays for this extra search, come to that, who's paid up to now?

The present search (Phase 4) is funded by Air France and Airbus, probably equally.

The Phase 3 search (Spring of 2010) was also funded by AF and AB.

I'm not sure who paid for the Phase 2 sonar search by the Pourquoi Pas? in August of 2009.

The Phase 1 search, immediately after the accident was likely paid for by several governments, mainly France and Brazil.

If the site of the wreck is found, then there will be a Phase 5 recovery that will be paid for by France through BEA:

The New Undersea Search Campaign (http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/new.undersea.campaign.php)

I'm sure others will correct or clarify any of this.

[HazelNuts39]

As HN39 indicates, the true "coffin corner" is where the 1g-buffet speed equals MMO. Sorry Chris, I didn't say that, and it's not correct. As correctly stated in the article in The Economist: The apex where the two lines intersect—where the minimum and maximum safe speeds are the same—is known euphemistically as “coffin corner”. - it is the top of the load factor vs Mach curve, where low speed buffet becomes high speed buffet, at 1g. For the A330 that is at about M=0.82.

Regards,
HN39

[ChristiaanJ]

HN39,

Isn't that two different ways of describing exactly the same thing?

CJ

[HazelNuts39]

It is A330-200/205t/CG37%/M.82/FL460/1g

Regards,
HN39

[fantom]

It is A330-200/205t/CG37%/M.82/FL460/1g



How can you get to 460 in a 330? The highest I have ever been is 410. Or, is this all theoretical stuff?

[HazelNuts39]

It is where the infamous "coffin corner" is. It isn't theoretical, but to get there you need more thrust than the A330 has installed.

EDIT:: The point is that the "coffin corner" is very far from where AF447 was.

Regards,
HN39

[mm43]

http://i56.tinypic.com/2rgpct2.jpg

[HazelNuts39]

Thanks MM43;

In the example the available load factor at FL350 is 1.75 g. For 1.0 g, find the altitude where the ambient pressure is equal to that at FL350 divided by 1.75.

Regards,
HN39

[Chris Scott]

Quote from HN39, post #2842:
Sorry Chris, I didn't say that, and it's not correct.

Apologies for the misinterpretation, HN39, and I stand corrected. I have edited my post #2839 by footnote.

I fully concur that, at FL350, AF447 was not cruising anywhere near "coffin corner". But the tropopause remains of interest, as always, for the reason I stated. Is there a difference of opinion on its altitude in the case of AF447?

Chris

[PJ2]

Hello Chris;

Just some comments on the trop; - the A330 rides the transition quite well even though, as you say, the ride can be rough.

I would say that temperature variations aren't wide enough to cause concern in terms of being too warm.

The optimum altitude and maximum altitude charts for M0.80 and M0.82 are below.

ISA+20 would not be a problem at FL350, 205T; the charts are for a cg of 37.0% but I believe a cg of 39.5% would not significantly affect operation in ISA+20 conditions.

The 'n' curve, (1.4g & 1.3g) indicate buffet margin. There are no bleed corrections for optimum altitudes but max operating alts for ISA+20 are reduced by: Engine Anti-ice only, 800'; Airframe and Engine A/I, 1900'.

None of this, by itself is a big thing. This is the stuff of normal cruise, and the airplane is a long way from the boundaries by planning and good flight management.

In reference to the reduced altitudes if antice protection is 'on', by "reduced" I am thinking that the airplane would probably stay at altitude if established there already but descent may be required if it warms up.

In other words, this kind of reduction doesn't meant the airplane is anywhere near "coffin corner" but astute crews may descend for slighly lower fuel flows.

Speed would not be a problem in most cases but if it warms up, a very slow bleeding off may occur - nothing dramatic that any crew wouldn't be able to plan for and determine a course of action.

Though the caveat is always "anything's possible", we have to bear in mind that ISA+20 is rare, higher even more rare, and they would have known about this variation from the flight plan.

Fuel load, cruise altitude selections, loading and routes would have been taken into consideration - it's standard work.

PJ2

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/A330_ISAvsAltChart_2009-07-26_09065.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Hi PJ2,
Your two cruise-performance charts neatly complement mm43's graph of Mach/FL/CG/Wt/Load Factor – thanks to you both.
　
PJ2's charts confirm that, because of its thrust limitations, the A330-200 with CF6-80E1A3 engines is unlikely to be climbed to a cruise altitude where the available load factor is much below 1.4g. Optimum Alt tends to give something of the order of 1.5g, and Max Alt gives just over 1.4g at M0.82.
(I think this is fairly typical of current turbofan airliners with their very high bypass-ratios, although twins like the A330 tend to have a higher available thrust-to-weight ratio than 3-engined and 4-engine types. So – unlike some aeroplanes with low-bypass-ratio engines, such as the VC10 – cruise altitude is limited by thrust rather than by the wing.)


Quote from PJ2:
Just some comments on the trop; - the A330 rides the transition quite well even though, as you say, the ride can be rough.
I would say that temperature variations aren't wide enough to cause concern in terms of being too warm.

Having ridden the trop routinely for 30 years, and flown this route, I agree; and am not suggesting for a moment that a trop encounter could have been the prime reason for AF447's demise. If severe icing turns out to be the primary, it is unlikely to be associated with the trop; most likely to be found in storm cells well below it. That's why I'm curious to know where the trop was. mm43 has mentioned a figure close to FL360, only 1000ft above AF447; HN39 has quoted an estimate of 15295m (about FL500).

There is, however, one very remote possibility that I would like to dismiss. At a frontal line, the trop layer typically steps up or down abruptly and considerably. (There may also be more than one layer.) If it is a step-down, the aircraft could transit in less than a minute from severe icing below the trop to an encounter with it. If that transition happened to coincide with the PF trying to fly the aeroplane using the technique for flight with unreliable speed indications (thrust/attitude), the effects would add seriously to his workload and any confusion.

Chris

[mm43]

Tim Vasquez's weathergraphics.com (http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/) page contains a lot of information relevant to this discussion. His profile graphic - reproduced below, with modified position timings gives a fairly good representation as to the likely condition of the air-mass.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2qavfh0.jpg
You'll note that he is using ISA+10°C giving -44°C at FL350. Interpolation / extrapolation of OAT within the mesoscale system is a big variable. Tim quotes tops at 56,000 feet (17,000m), but doesn't see anything out of the ordinary in this ITCZ event. Lightning is also very rare within these marine environment MCS clusters, and none was recorded.

This event is most likely causal to the upset, but the why and how need answers.

[PJ2]

mm43;

Thank you for providing Tim's profile-view - I had seen it at some point but had lost track of it.

This will be repetitive as others who fly will have made similar observations, but...I am trying hard to come to terms with the flight path shown in Tim's schematic, and the two TCu's through which this path goes.

Even as this schematic cannot provide information on lateral deviation, I find it very difficult to accept that any crew would take such a path if not clear, even by accident, so good is this aircraft's radar. Further, I've done this many times over many decades, and so it is difficult to accept having no options but to fly into a canyon of TCu's, around which there was no safe options for passage. This of course means nothing except that it is difficult to accept, but possible, but then that possibility begs further, more interesting questions.

Perhaps it may help to view the following series of images which I photographed, abeam Brisbane, on a trip from HNL to SYD in December, 2006. This is in an A340. As per Tim's work, we know that the following example is not as complicated as the system AF447 faced, but using radar, paths can be found and we know this from having the luxury of examining the satellite photographs.

The potential for violent weather along the aircraft's path, as drawn, especially in the last two darker-gray areas of the last TCu could create extremely demanding circumstances for crew and aircraft alike, even without an unreliable airspeed abnormality.


1. The first image shows the radar returns on the ND 160nm scale. The "ABABARB" is an abeam-waypoint which the FMGEC had inserted earlier when we were cleared direct to a down-route wpt. The top-right-hand display indicates an ETA for ABABARB of 21:31Z and a distance-to-go of 56nm. The white arrow pointing down just before the diamond symbol (2145) is the FMGEC-calculated start-of-descent point. The return to the far right is the Brisbane/Queensland coastal region of Australia.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/WxDev0_DSC_9894_D70-2.jpg



2. CPDLC displayed message from Brisbane, in response to the request to deviate to the right of course. The clearance was requested at 2122Z (in the white font) and the return message from ATC was delivered/received at 2123Z (top left corner)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/WxDev1_DSC_9888_D70.jpg




3. This is what a course deviation looks like done on the autopilot using the FMGEC "Offset" capability. The green line is the flight plan route. The amber line is the FMGEC inserted offset to the right. Turning right to intercept the offset can be done using Heading mode, or it can be done on the autopilot while in the normal LNAV mode. Note the distance travelled since the first photograph was taken...about 35nm. The distance travelled towards something to be avoided is a function of communications capability. Sometimes during poor HF conditions, especially on the North Atlantic, no request, or no response/clearance might occur and one may have to request that another aircraft relay the communications. Deviating without a clearance is rare, but under the captain's authority s/he can take whatever measures are necessary for safe flight. CPDLC is essentially a "Squawk Ident" while in mid-Atlantic or mid-Pacific and so is a huge advancement in safety. The radar antenna tilt is Down 1.75deg. The beam width of the A340/A330's antenna is 2.84deg so using the 1:60 rule, one can calculate heights above and below the returns. On the lower left of the ND, is "OFST R25" for the programmed offset of 25nm. To time the deviation, the chronometer has been started, also on the lower left, and reads 6' 47".

The blue triangle at the top is the heading selection. Blue indicates that the HDG mode and not the LNAV mode is engaged, (the triangle would be magenta for LNAV).

The wind is 277T/60kts, and one can see both from the radar image and the actual photographs, that the anvil is moving to the left.


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/WxDev2_DSC_9894_D70-1.jpg


Photographs 4 & 5 are of the actual thunderstorm being painted on the radar. The tops are well above our altitude, (which was probably FL390). From the radar picture just above, it doesn't appear threatening but the photographs show otherwise.


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/WxDev3_DSC_9894_D70.jpg



http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/batcave777/WxDev4_DSC_9894_D70.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Thanks, mm43,

I've got a few queries on Tim Vasquez's nice profile-graphic.

(1) The isotherms are all perfectly straight, horizontal lines, which seems simplistic.

(2) The tropopause is not shown, although there are a couple of clues in:
(a) the northerly anvil-top at about 45000ft amsl/-69C, and
(b) the average lapse rate between -70C and -75C of only 1C/1000ft.

(3) The altitude axis is annotated "MSL", and the aircraft is shown tracking at 35000ft. It would be interesting to calculate the disparity between that and FL350, i.e., 35000ft pressure altitude, and plot a line for FL350.


The word "tropopause" appears about three times in his piece, but only in the context of cloud-top overshoot; he does not discuss the lapse rate characteristics, or its altitude within or to the north edge of the bigger Cb - which may well represent the ITCZ frontal face. North of that build-up, the isotherms remain perfectly horizontal.

Chris

PS: Those great pictures take me back, PJ2...

[HazelNuts39]

Thanks, MM43 and PJ2 for your most elucidating inputs.

Chris;
Figure 11 of Tim Vasquez' analysis (http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/) shows the temperature profile of the atmosphere up to the tropopause and beyond, up to FL 700, and the temperature inside the CB. The temperature profile is obtained from a balloon ascent from Fernando de Noronha. I thought this provides some good background to some of your questions/remarks.

Regards,
HN39

[Chris Scott]

Hello HN39,

Yes, the tephigrams on Figs 10 & 11 would be interesting. I've ignored them so far because, even using browser zoom magnification, I'm unable to read the blurred scale numbering - let alone the other information.

[EDIT] Eureka: have belatedly noticed the enlargement facility he kindly provided!

Chris

[FluidFlow]

mm43. You are supposed to be keeping us informed yet it is 6 days since you last posted Alucia's position.:= When you get a chance, can you give us an update on the current position of the Alucia and if she is heading towards or away from the 'pollution spot' vicinity (ie getting warmer or colder). Maybe you could edit your #2830 post to include the Alucia's current position. It would be greatly appreciated.
thanks in anticipation.
FF

[lbj]

Agreed- hoping to see more of this missions progress:

[Chris Scott]

Hi FluidFlow and Lyndon Johnson,

Welcome. As mm43 is antipodal (and presumably asleep) I will interject to say I have it on good authority that he (and broadreach) are doing their absolute best, as always. As soon as a position or other news becomes available, rest assured they will post it...

Chris

[auv-ee]

There is a new article on USA Today. While not presenting any new information, it does summarize the situation well and clearly discusses the rational and methods of the Phase 4 search.

Robots enlisted in Round 4 of search for Flight 447 wreckage - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-03-31-doomedflight31_ST_N.htm)

[dazdaz1]

I'm curious as to (USAToday link) if they located the aircraft.

1) Would the robots be capable of cutting through fuselage to extract the flight recorders?

2) Would the robots be capable of lifting large a/c parts to the surface?

I read (above link) the previous search found a large oil drum, might be pushing it to find an object of a large biscuit tin size.

Curious.

Daz

[auv-ee]

dazdaz1:

The location of an oil drum was performed by the side-scan sonar. The use of any acoustic imaging, such as side-scan, requires a trade-off between resolution and range. At the frequency used for the long range search now in progress (600m either side of track), an oil drum would be an easy detection, but not necessarily an easy identification. The goal of the initial search is to find the debris field, which should be evident from numerous targets in the same vicinity. Certainly the crew are now familiar with the variability of the background in this area..

Once the general area of the debris is located, the AUVs have two other capabilities:

1. Higher frequency side-scan. I'm not sure of the exact frequencies in use, but it would be something like 150kHz for the low frequency, longer range, and 400kHz for the high frequency, shorter range, and higher resolution. This will allow better mapping of the debris field and possible identification of larger shapes.

2. Down-looking still image camera with strobe lighting. Flown at 5-20m off the bottom (depending on water clarity and how rough the terrain is at the site), many parts should be identifiable on camera, certainly anything as large as the recorders, or the section of fuselage to which they are perhaps still attached.

These AUVs do not intentionally touch the bottom and are incapable of manipulation or recovery of objects. They are the best available tool for wide area search and survey in deep water. 10,000 square km is a lot of area to search. Hopefully they won't have to search it all.

If the debris field is located, BEA is prepared to quickly begin Phase 5 of the search, with a different ship and crew. This phase will use a remotely operated vehicle (ROV). An ROV is tethered, hover capable, and equipped with manipulators and tools for any cutting and recovery. An ROV's tether (usually) delivers the high power required for maneuvering and manipulation; and it also provides the instant imaging, data and control required for interactive use. However, the tether restricts the speed of an ROV in deep water, making it a poor wide-area search tool.

[dazdaz1]

auv-ee, Thanks for the post, understanding a bit more now.

Best wishes

Daz

[Chris Scott]

In view of the controversy that has arisen from other accident investigations in recent times (to be deliberately unspecific), I wonder if anyone agrees that the BEA might be well advised to call on one or more other agencies, before starting phase 5, to witness and monitor the recovery of the recorders and any other parts or equipment the condition of which may be crucial to the success of this investigation.

The WHOI will be conducting the operation, and can hardly be considered to have any agenda in this matter, so that's a good start. But I think the presence of air accident investigators from one or two other nations when the stuff is hauled aboard the recovery ship might in the long run be well worth all the extra cost and inconvenience. Suitable candidates that immediately spring to mind are from Australia, the U.S, and the U.K., but no doubt there are several non-Anglophone countries with investigators of sufficient competence.

Chris

[auv-ee]

The WHOI will be conducting the operation, and can hardly be considered to have any agenda in this matter, so that's a good start.

Remember that any recovery will be performed with a different ship, assets and crew. I would not expect anyone from the WHOI/GOMAR contingent to be aboard for Phase 5, unless it was for data interpretation, as a guide to the ROV operators.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Remember that any recovery will be performed with a different ship, assets and crew. I would not expect anyone from the WHOI/GOMAR contingent to be aboard for Phase 5, unless it was for data interpretation, as a guide to the ROV operators.

The most important person to be aboard (exept the crew and eventual scientists) when black boxes are recovered is a representative of the french justice.
It must immediately put seals on the boxes when they deposit on board

[jameslon]

As per title.

BBC News - Home (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news)

[beamender99]

The BBC has just reported that parts of the Aircraft have been found

"French investigators find parts of Air France plane which came down in the Atlantic off Brazil in 2009"

[jameslon]

LATEST:French investigators find parts of Air France plane which came down in the Atlantic off Brazil in 2009

BBC News - Wreckage from Air France jet found in Atlantic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12953432)

[Machinbird]

A better link to BBC
BBC News - Wreckage from Air France jet found in Atlantic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12953432)

[Leodis737]

TF1 says:

"Investigators have " hope "of finding the black boxes from the aircraft, the debris field to be" relatively concentrated , "said the director of BEA." (Google translation)

Crash Rio-Paris : des éléments de l'avion localisés - France - TF1 News (http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/2011-03/crash-rio-paris-des-elements-de-l-avion-localises-6345360.html)

[beamender99]

BBC site further updated with:-

France's Bureau of Investigations and Analysis (BEAR) said that plane parts of the plane had been located by the searchers, led by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.

"These parts have been identified by BEA investigators as belonging to the wreck of the A330-203, Flight AF 447," it added.
The bureau promised to release further information later.

[HarryMann]

Of course, of initial interest, is exactly where the wreckage has been found.... ?

[mm43]

I haven't been ignoring the requests for information on the current Phase 4 search, but in all honesty there is nothing to report. The problem, as has been pointed out earlier, is that the "Alucia" is not fitted with an add-on to her AIS installation which allows the capture of her position by LEO (low earth orbiting) satellites.

While writing this, I received a phone call to tell me the debris field has been located and is apparently relatively compact, as I always imagined it to be.

However, I have managed to recover some additional media coverage of the Suape pre-departure press event. The following is my translation from the "AF447 - Mutual Aid and Solidarity Association" (http://www.asso-af447.fr/Recherches-en-mer-2011/lancement-4eme-phase-de-recherches-24032011.html) webpage -
You will find below the first components of our monitoring of the 4th phase sea search:


The captain of Alucia, operated by WHOI, is Hap Hayden.
The vessel left the port of Suape in Brazil on Wednesday, March 23, 2011.
She has to travel 520 nautical miles (about 960km) before reaching the site to commence the search.
The average speed of the vessel is 12 knots or about 22 km/h
After about 43 hours of navigation, the Alucia will reach the site on Thursday, March 24 at 16.00.

During the press conference at Suape, the presence of an associations representative during the recovery phase of any debris (phase 5) was raised. Jean-Paul Troadec, director of BEA, has expressed his reluctance, announcing recently that the subject was still under discussion. It seems clear that the BEA is opposed to this decision by Thierry Mariani, Secretary of State for Transport. The representative of the Brazilian Association has responded to JP Troadec that this decision was not negotiable. The "AF447 - Mutual Aid and Solidarity Association" also maintains that its presence is essential for transparency.

David Gallo, head of U.S. operations has confirmed a weekly report of research activities will be sent. This report will be posted on the website of the association, the same day or next day at the latest.

We will report regularly on the progress of this new phase of research ...So, there is still a bit more "ducking and diving" to take place before this event is finalized.

[beamender99]

AFP reports

"During search operations in the sea carried out in the last 24 hours... the team on board the Alucia located parts of a plane," France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) said in a statement.
"These elements were identified by BEA investigators as belonging to the wreckage of the A330-203 plane, flight AF 447" that crashed, the statement said.
BEA Director Jean-Paul Troadec also told AFP that investigators have hope of finding the plane's black boxes because the debris area was relatively concentrated.
"The favourable news is that the debris area is relatively concentrated. And this gives us hope of finding the black boxes," he said.
Troadec said the parts of the wreckage that had been found consisted of "engines and certain elements of the wing."

[atakacs]

Just wondering - how could they make this positive identification ? As much as I hope they finally found it I'm a little worried that they might have rushed the announcement. Somewhere it sounds to good to be true...

[NeoFit]

French newspaper (http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lefigaro.fr%2Factualite-france%2F2011%2F04%2F03%2F01016-20110403ARTFIG00229-af-447-des-debris-de-l-avion-localises-en-mer.php) (google translation)

Edit:

"These factors have been identified by investigators from BEA as belonging to the wreckage of the aircraft A330-203, Flight 447," said the French agency. These engines and components of the wing of the aircraft."

[mm43]

Somewhere it sounds to good to be true... I think you need to give those experienced in sidescan sonar interpretation some credit for the knowledge they have obtained in interpreting the returned data. The REMUS 6000 AUVs also have the ability to carry a high resolution camera for close-up identification.

[Chris Scott]

Exciting news, but as yet there seems to be no announcement on the French-language BEA website, malheureusement.

mm43's quote from the AF447 Mutual Aid and Solidarity Association:
During the press conference at Suape, the presence of an associations representative during the recovery phase of any debris (phase 5) was raised. Jean-Paul Troadec, director of BEA, has expressed his reluctance, announcing recently that the subject was still under discussion. It seems clear that the BEA is opposed to this decision by Thierry Mariani, Secretary of State for Transport. The representative of the Brazilian Association has responded to JP Troadec that this decision was not negotiable. The AF447 - Mutual Aid and Solidarity Association also maintains that its presence is essential for transparency.

Hello mm43,

Do you know who the Brazilian Association and the AF447 - Mutual Aid and Solidarity Association are, and is there any indication if they actually have representatives on board Alucia ?

Am I alone in being unclear on the criteria for the point at which Phase 4 ends, and the process of reorganisation before Phase 5 begins?

[auv-ee]

Am I alone in being unclear on the criteria for the point at which Phase 4 ends, and the process of reorganisation before Phase 5 begins?

Probably not. I believe that Phase 4 will end after the debris field has been adequately mapped and photographed; probably later this week.

[Chris Scott]

Sounds reasonable. Four or five days would be ample time to request and organise the attendance of representatives of other agencies, particularly if they were air accident investigators.

[mm43]

Chris Scott

The French branch of the Association have a website as noted in my earlier post. The Brazilian Association may have a similar site, but I have not located it. Both the Associations are recognized by the French Ministry of Transport, and it would appear to a lesser extent by the BEA. Neither Association has representatives onboard the "Alucia".

The Phase 5 Recovery operation will swing into action from this point. There are pre-qualified contractors, and subject to the current availability of a pre-qualified vessel, a charter-party between the vessel's owners and the BEA will be executed.

I suspect that as Airbus and Air France were paying for the search phase, that will continue, with the debris field being mapped. As the wreckage has positively been identified, the ongoing costs incurred by these parties will most likely now be met by the BEA.

The "Alucia" will have long left the search area before the recovery operation commences at the site.

[proxus]

BBC News - Wreckage from Air France jet found in Atlantic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12953432)

[auv-ee]

The BEA is to publish first pictures of the wreckage found in the Atlantic on Monday.
"The BEA will on Monday afternoon hold a press conference to show first pictures of the plane parts," a spokeswoman told AFP.
The conference is to be held at 3:00 pm (1300 GMT) at BEA headquarters near Le Bourget airport, north of Paris.
AFP: Parts of Rio-Paris jet wreckage found: official (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gUhM9bWtTjyMmQFCMssljyoc5mgA?docId=CNG.34b89149aa6e7d0 6680c9cf785978729.f61)

[GreatBear]

These associations have web sites:

1. Associação dos familiares das vitimas do voo 447 (http://www.afvv447.net/)

2. Association Entraide et Solidarité AF447 (http://www.asso-af447.fr/)

3. HIOP AF 447 - Hinterbliebene der Opfer des Flugzeugabsturzes AF 447 e. V. (http://www.hiop-af447.de/)

GB

[SeenItAll]

Another news report on the finding.
Air France plane crash parts found in Atlantic - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110403/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_brazil_plane_crash;_ylt=AhSNvwpzetCtNe7h_W0c_FlH2o cA;_ylu=X3oDMTNnMjA4NWN1BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwNDAzL2V1X2ZyYW5j ZV9icmF6aWxfcGxhbmVfY3Jhc2gEY2NvZGUDbXBfZWNfOF8xMARjcG9zAzQE cG9zAzQEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNhaXJmcmFuY2VwbGE-)

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Seem's good for the next phase ....

The Director of BEA, Jean-Paul Troadec, said the first items found were the two reactors as well as various pieces of wing. The debris field is "relatively limited" and is located on a flat surface at about 4000 meters deep (abyssal plain). AF447 : l'pave de l'Airbus d'Air France localise au fond de l'Ocan Atlantique - Transport arien ::: AEROCONTACT (http://www.aerocontact.com/actualite_aeronautique_spatiale/ac-af447-l-epave-de-l-airbus-d-air-france-localisee-au-fond-de-l-ocean%7E11748.html)

[500N]

A question re black boxes to the well informed which is partly relevant to this incident.

With today's technology (as in all the various recording media), why is it that the length of the recordings are not longer than the time currently recorded. I have seen a number of reports (Qantas) where the start of the incident was recorded over.

Also, why does the signal given out by the black boxes only last a short time and seems to be quite "weak". With battery technology available, I would have thought a signal could be send for quite a very long time - like months, not 30 days as well as being a very strong signal.

Thanks

[V1... Ooops]

In view of the controversy that has arisen from other accident investigations in recent times (to be deliberately unspecific), I wonder if anyone agrees that the BEA might be well advised to call on one or more other agencies, before starting phase 5, to witness and monitor the recovery of the recorders and any other parts or equipment the condition of which may be crucial to the success of this investigation.

Chris has made a very wise (and politely phrased) recommendation, and I most sincerely hope that his recommendation is heeded.

Michael

[cc45]

Searchers find pieces of crashed plane in Atlantic - World - NZ Herald Mobile (http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.php?c_id=2&objectid=10716989)

[500N]

Thanks for the answers.


What about the cockpit recorder only recording a certain amount
that gets recorded over if the incident is a bit long - ie Qantas.

[Squawk_ident]

It is not very clear but bot both engines seems to have been located and observed and (part) of the wing(s) also. Other reports speak of one engine located only. A reporter just said that the aircraft was almost entire. Wreckages would be at 4000 meters depth.
BEA should publish pictures today.

[Squawk_ident]

Our "Ministre de l'Écologie, du Développement durable, des Transports et du Logement " , Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet has announced this morning that bodies have been seen inside some parts of the aircraft. It would tend to confirm that the aircraft would be almost entire as it has been said earlier today.

[ushumgal]

I'm quite surprised about that - not to sound gruesome, but I would think that after nearly 2 years, the local sea life would have eaten most of the organic material they could get at. It seems to have happened at the Titanic wreck site, where only the shoes were left, but in positions indicating they were still being worn when deposited.

Anyway, I am well chuffed to hear they have finally found the wreckage! Even if they do not find the recorders, or if the recorders don't work, the wreckage itself should tell a lot.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Our "Ministre de l'Écologie, du Développement durable, des Transports et du Logement " , Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet has announced this morning that bodies have been seen inside some parts of the aircraft. It would tend to confirm that the aircraft would be almost entire as it has been said earlier today. This kind of statement should be taken with suspicion .. especially when it comes from a minister of state.
We know the kind of sensational statements which they are capable
Do not know what they are talking .. but act as if they know more than the experts .... :ooh:
And if it is discovered that they lied .. they hide behind the fact that they were misinformed :)

[Squawk_ident]

A press conference will be held at 15h00 French time (1300UTC) at the headquarter of the BEA, Le Bourget.
NKM did not say (of course) what was the exact state of bodies observed.
Ushumgal, may be that some people will be able to analyze and comments about this fact.
A relative of a victim just said whether to extract the bodies ( I don't know exactly how to formulate) would be appropriate or not. It will depend of the families. Either the wrecks would be taken back up to the surface of the ocean or it is decided that it is a mass grave and let it at the bottom. Hard decision to take.
Drones REMUS have been used in this mission.

Edit: NKM said that some wrecks were almost in "one part". I believe she was speaking of the fuselage

Edit2: NKM interview :
Dailymotion - Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet - une vidéo News & Politics (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhyf62_nathalie-kosciusko-morizet_news#from=embed)
Only the first minute of the interview is related to the AF447.

[HazelNuts39]

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) published 23/03/2011 a Notice of Proposed Amendment (http://easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/docs/npa/NPA%202011-03.pdf) to update the Certification Specifications for large aeroplanes and turbine engines for flights in icing conditions: “Large Aeroplane Certification Specifications in Supercooled Large Drop, Mixed phase, and Ice Crystal Icing Conditions”; which addresses, amongst other aspects, -
Due to the way Pitot or Pitot-static tubes are usually mounted, they are prone to collecting ice crystals. Encountering high concentrations of ice crystals may lead to blocked Pitot or Pitot-static tubes because the energy necessary to melt the ice crystals can exceed the tube heating system capability, or the water formed by the melting process is not completely evacuated and it can re-freeze downstream inside the tube. Pitot or Pitot-static tube blockage can lead to errors in measuring airspeed.Regards,
HN39

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Due to the way Pitot or Pitot-static tubes are usually mounted, they are prone to collecting ice crystals. Encountering high concentrations of ice crystals may lead to blocked Pitot or Pitot-static tubes because the energy necessary to melt the ice crystals can exceed the tube heating system capability, or the water formed by the melting process is not completely evacuated and it can re-freeze downstream inside the tube. Pitot or Pitot-static tube blockage can lead to errors in measuring airspeed. Nothing to say about all this .. apart from the publication date ... 23/03/2011 :)
So it took years (nearly half a century if we take into account the advent of the jet) to account for this phenomenon ...
Edifying has more than one way :eek:
Will be not astonished if one day EASA publish a notice about the "discovery" of the wheel ... :)

[Capetonian]

Elle a également précisé que des corps identifiables figuraient toujours dans l'habitacle de l'appareil.

"Je ne suis pas technicienne mais tout n'a pas explosé, il y a une partie de l'habitacle et dans cette partie de l'habitacle, il y a des corps", a-t-elle dit, ajoutant qu'il y avait des corps identifiables. Aucune information sur le nombre de corps découverts n'a été dévoilée.

Ouf of curiosity, as the statement about 'bodies' seems bizarre, I looked for the original French, expecting to see 'skeletons' or 'remains' but it says 'corps identifiables'. I am wondering what the explanation for this could be.

[JD-EE]

Captonian, 4000 meters depth is likely the chief reason. Look at how long it took to reduce the Titanic. Two years would not be enough time for the little critters at that depth to make much headway consuming the bodies. There are few sources of energy down there for life. So for the most part it'll be few, far between, and somewhat sluggish, I suspect.

(Did I guess right auv-ee?)

{^_^}

[SaturnV]

If one looks at mm43's map, and pairs it with the description of abyssal plain, and where Woods Hole was starting the search, looks to be close to the LKP.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2cr7fcn.jpg

[vanHorck]

I cannot wait for the exact location to being disclosed so that mm43 can include it in the drawing..... Perhaps the location in itself will already tell us something about what happened....

"il y a des corps identifiables" could also relate to objects such as clothes, jewelry, and obviously dental records. "Identifiable" means nothing more than that, bodies can still be identified.....

But to even consider bringing such a plane up from that depth... perhaps the dead are better left in peace, I just cannot imagine anyone wanting to disturb this grave more than necessary (FDR and CVR)

[Chris Scott]

Capetonian,
Re your quote from the French Transport Minister, a clip of which I've seen in the this morning on the English-speaking satellite-TV station France24:
Elle a également précisé que des corps identifiables figuraient toujours dans l'habitacle de l'appareil.
"Je ne suis pas technicienne mais tout n'a pas explosé, il y a une partie de l'habitacle et dans cette partie de l'habitacle, il y a des corps", a-t-elle dit, ajoutant qu'il y avait des corps identifiables. Aucune information sur le nombre de corps découverts n'a été dévoilée.

Was waiting for one of our Francophone friends to interpret the first paragraph, as a literal translation leads to confusion, but I'll have a stab at it:
She also specified that some identifiable bodies would [figure among those found in?] the cockpit [and/or cabin] of the machine.

Although France24 translated "habitacle" as "cockpit", my Larousse dictionary says the word is also used for "passenger compartment" in the case of cars. So there is room for ambiguity here.

Now for her second quoted paragraph:
"I'm not a technician but all had not disintegrated, there's a part of the [cockpit/cabin] and in this part of [it] there are some bodies", she said, in adding that there were identifiable bodies. No information on the number of bodies found has been revealed.

Could one of our bi-linguists comment?

Re identification, teeth may be one expedient.

[vanHorck]

Elle a également précisé que des corps identifiables figuraient toujours dans l'habitacle de l'appareil.
"Je ne suis pas technicienne mais tout n'a pas explosé, il y a une partie de l'habitacle et dans cette partie de l'habitacle, il y a des corps", a-t-elle dit, ajoutant qu'il y avait des corps identifiables. Aucune information sur le nombre de corps découverts n'a été dévoilée.

"She also specified that corpses which can still be identified were inside the cabin of the airplane."
Habitacle is indeed normally used for the cabin, but unfortunately the origin of the word is about the "living space" which in a more informal way could also mean the cockpit

"I am not a technician, but it has not exploded, there is a part of the cabin and in that part there are bodies", she said, adding that there were identifiable corpses. No information has been divulged about the number of passengers.

The way I read this is that the field of debris is small with some part of the fuselage still resembling in some way the original form of the fuselage, and that in that part of this fuselage corpses (multiple) have been detected which are still identifiable, which I take to be more than some single detached bones....

[Svarin]

Gentlemen,

has anyone any idea of the location of this debris field ?

Why was it not announced immediately ? It is not as if hundreds of paparazzis could suddenly flock in and crowd this part of the Atlantic...

Position is possibly one of the most important item of information in this first sighting, along with 'almost intact airframe' and 'wreck positively identified as FGZCP'.

Best regards

[Bobman84]

I always thought the a/c would be relatively intact but it would be one of few wrecks that wasn't broken into tiny pieces.

As far as recovery of any bodies goes vs leaving it alone, they did recover 98% or so of the Swiss Air crash, one year on. Wouldn't some families want to see their loved ones for one last time and have a proper grave to go to?

[ushumgal]

Designating the wreck as a grave is more a nautical matter, I think. It makes some sense with ships, which, needless to say, are much more difficult to raise than an aircraft.

I'm pretty sure they will recover as much of the aircraft as possible. For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened.

[HazelNuts39]

For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened. I don't quite see what it could tell us beyond what BEA has already published, and beyond what photographs of the sea floor would tell us. Our hope for revealing the causes of this accident sits in the FDR and CVR.

Regards,
HN39

[SaturnV]

It will be interesting to see how well the location correlates with the Russian experience of how far airplanes travel when there is a mishap (loss of control) during cruise.

[DX Wombat]

des corps identifiablesI think you will find that in this instance the phrase does not mean that the bodies are individually identifiable as "Fred Jones", "Pierre Pierrot" etc., but rather that each is identifiable as a body. I'm pleased for the families that the aircraft has been found.

[HazelNuts39]

Will be not astonished if one day EASA publish a notice about the "discovery" of the wheel ...
Read the document:
Following the ATR 72 accident, the National Transportation Safety Board in the USA (NTSB) recommended updating aeroplanes icing conditions specifications. Although some knowledge existed at this date about severe icing conditions, including SLD, it was not possible to immediately update the icing environment in the Certification Specifications, because there was a need to identify in detail the parameters of the relevant environmental envelopes applicable to aircraft operations and to accurately assess the associated safety risk; in addition, the methods of compliance by aircraft manufacturers with potential new icing environment requirements had to be investigated (capabilities in terms of engineering tools, ground test facilities, flight tests). This was recognised as a very complex task requiring various expertises. Therefore, an Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee (ARAC) was tasked by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in December 1997, through its Ice Protection Harmonization Working Group (IPHWG), to perform the following actions:

Define an icing environment that includes SLDs;

Consider the need to define a mixed phase icing environment (supercooled liquid and ice crystals);

Devise requirements to assess the ability of an aeroplane to either safely operate without restrictions in these conditions or safely operate until it can exit these conditions;

Study the effects icing requirement changes could have on FAR/JAR 25.773 Pilot compartment view, 25.1323 Airspeed indicating system, and 25.1325 Static pressure systems.

Consider the need for a regulation on ice protection for angle of attack probes.

(...)

The proposed rule is based on the recommendations of the ARAC group. The ARAC IPHWG task 2 report rev A along with the task 2 phase IV review (submitted on 29 June 2009) are available on the FAA website under Regulations & Policies\Advisory and Rulemaking Committees\Advisory Committees\Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee\Transport Airplane and Engine\Active Working Groups\Ice Protection Harmonization.
Regards,
HN39

[rgbrock1]

CNN, for what that's worth, is reporting that a large debris field has been located as well as the remains of passengers.

Also, the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute is leading the search efforts and was the team which discovered the debris field during underwater search efforts performed in the past 24 hours, according to CNN.

[cats_five]

As far as recovery of any bodies goes vs leaving it alone, they did recover 98% or so of the Swiss Air crash, one year on. Wouldn't some families want to see their loved ones for one last time and have a proper grave to go to?

See them? After over a year in seawater? I doubt it very much. Proper grave - maybe. There again some relatives might prefer the bodies to be left where they are.

[iakobos]

According to France 24 citing a source close to the investigation...
the debris field is situated West from LKP and not far from it.

[Machdiamond]

DX, "corps identifiables" in this context really does mean (I speak French) bodies that are individually identifiable.

Whether that is really the case remains to be seen, but what was meant by that sentence is just that, without ambiguity.

[snowfalcon2]

Hi all,

But to even consider bringing such a plane up from that depth... perhaps the dead are better left in peace, I just cannot imagine anyone wanting to disturb this grave more than necessary (FDR and CVR)

This varies between nationalities. For example, when the "Estonia" ship sank in the Baltic Sea in 1994 claiming 852 lives lost, many Swedish mourners (most of the fatalities were from Sweden) demanded the bodies to be recovered while the Estonian and Finnish were more towards the "let them rest there in peace" opinion.

This may have been influenced by the fact that at the time of "Estonia"'s sinking the deepwater robots were not nearly as advanced as nowadays. So bringing up the bodies (or indeed the whole ship) would have been technically a huge task, certainly much more difficult than with an airplane.

Originally Posted by ushumgal
For one thing, the wreckage will doubtless tell us much more about what happened.
I don't quite see what it could tell us beyond what BEA has already published, and beyond what photographs of the sea floor would tell us. Our hope for revealing the causes of this accident sits in the FDR and CVR.

It depends. If the FDR and CVR would indicate that the cause is something structural, it may be worthwhile to recover at least those parts to get closer to the real cause.
And of course if the FDR and CVR are not found or are not usable, the puzzle needs to be solved using the parts that are found.

One scenario might be to first map out the wreckage area and, if possible, identify the various pieces that are found. Then later recover the interesting bits.

[glad rag]

A source close to the investigation said that the wreckage had been found "near the (plane's) last known position, in a limited area a few hundred metres (yards) to the west of this position.

First images of Rio-Paris jet wreck to be released < French news | Expatica France (http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/local_news/first-images-of-rio-paris-jet-wreck-to-be-released_140226.html)

Accuracy of above statement unknown at present.

[SaturnV]

French TV from the BEA briefing reporting bodies to be recovered in 3-4 weeks, and cost of the recovery will be 5 million Euros, to be paid for by the government.

[RatherBeFlying]

Whale falls have been documented as an important food source for abyssal creatures. The pictures should be out very soon, but if fuselage sections came down somewhat intact the creatures may not yet have made their way completely in.

I would lean to translating "corps identifiables" as recognisable bodies and agree that relatives would be well advised not to have a look. The front cover of a book on the lost Franklin expedition features the corpse of a sailor who had been buried in a cold, wet environment. Yes, he's quite recognisable:eek:, but I'd be happier with said portrait inside the pages with a caution sticker.

[Vitamine]

The plane seems to be slightly north from LKP.

Crash Rio-Paris : « Il y a plusieurs corps » (http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/crash-rio-paris-il-y-a-plusieurs-corps-04-04-2011-1392938.php)

[ChristiaanJ]

Two passing thoughts....

- I can't imagine the sonar scans would have enough resolution to detect bodies inside the fuselage or cockpit, so one can presume they've already been taking photographs.
Edit : indeed the French news item linked in the previous post already shows vdeo and photos of some parts of the structure (landing gear in particular).

- 'Corps' (in french), same as 'body' (in english), can refer to an object, and not only to human remains. However, in the current context, I wouldn't think anybody would have been stupid enough to use corps/body in a press release, if human remains weren't meant.....

CJ

[WilyB]

http://www.leparisien.fr/images/2011/04/04/1392966_bea3_640x280.JPG

First picture.

[SaturnV]

INFO LE FIGARO - La campagne pour récupérer les boîtes noires, les débris de l'appareil ainsi que des corps de victimes devrait débuter dans trois semaines et sera intégralement financée par l'État. Lire la suite l'article

Localiser l'épave de l'AF 447 n'était que la première partie de la mission. Les membres de l'enquête de sécurité aérienne qui ont retrouvé l' AF447 ce week-end dans l'Atlantique sud , vont circonscrire le champ de débris et prendre de nombreuses photos avec les sous-marins d'exploration Remus. Objectif: localiser les différentes pièces de l'appareil ainsi que les boîtes noires qui permettront de lever le mystère de la catastrophe aérienne. Cette campagne, la quatrième de ce type, a été financée par Air France-Airbus, à hauteur de 9 millions d'euros.

Selon l efigaro.fr , la cinquième phase, celle du repêchage des boîtes noires, des débris de l'appareil ainsi que des corps des victimes, devrait «débuter dans trois semaines», de source ministérielle et devrait coûter 5 à 6 millions d'euros. L'Etat avait déjà lancé la procédure d'appel d'offre dans la perspective d'une probable localisation de l'épave et les étapes de la consultation devraient s'enchaîner rapidement.

Les premières photos envoyées par le navire Alucia, dans l'Atlantique sud, montreraient des morceaux intègres d'appareil et plusieurs corps de victimes encore identifiables. La profondeur (-4000 mètres), la pression et la température de l'eau auraient permis de conserver les corps des victimes. Les fonctionnaires en charge du dossier réfléchissent donc à envoyer des moyens spécifiques pour repêcher les victimes ainsi qu'une cellule d'identification. «Remonter les corps d'une telle profondeur, après deux ans de séjour dans l'eau, sans les endommager et en évitant la corrosion des eaux chaudes en surface relèvera de l'exploit», selon un proche du dossier.

Temperature and pressure preserved the bodies.

[takata]

1. The debris field exact location is not to be disclosed (in the North West large abyssal plain about 10 NM from LKP) for security reasons.

2. The debris field was first identified yesterday night around 19.00 (Paris). Its size is about 600 x 200 meters (including both engines, cabin, wings, landing gears).

3. The Remus were sent back to take some pictures of the field, cruising about 10 meters above the wreckage. The sea botom is flat and soft, made of sand or vase. Parts of the landing gears appears to be sinking into it.

4. Actually, the Remus are used to make a complete photographical report including geo-localization of all the wreckages (quadrillage). This would take several days to complete this work.

5. The bodies found would be recovered in the next phase. The main goal now is to find the recorders, still to be found.

6. Next phase will start with a new ship using ROVs, funded by French government, in order to recover the findings. It should start in about 3-4 weeks and 3 ships have been offered the job (one from France telecom, one from Alcatel-Lucent and one from a US company).

[SaturnV]

A short video of the interview with the Environment minister here:
Bodies found in wreckage of 2009 Air France crash in Atlantic - (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/04/bodies-found-in-wreckage-of-2009-air-france-crash-over-atlantic/1)

I think perhaps the three weeks may be the time to get the three ships underway or enroute. It would be pretty quick for the ships to be on station and recovering in three weeks time, unless they were already in Brazil or the Azores.

[Capetonian]

and cost of the recovery will be 5 million Euros, to be paid for by the government.

Government ..... tax payer you mean! That aside, I think it's very laudable that they have found the remains, by which I mean of the aircraft and occupants, and are recovering them.

[DX Wombat]

Thank you Machdiamond. I was relying on my A Level French which is now so rusty it is probably verging on becoming a pile of dust.:O

[takata]

The three ships contacted for the next phase (with actual position):
- René Descartes; France-Télécom-Marine (Brest).
- Île de Bréhat; Alcatel-Lucent (African Coast)
- Ares; Phoenix International (Cyprus)

[Rengineer]

What could be recovered for 5M€? Surely not the wreckage itself? From the press articles, though, that sounds to be the intention. I'd have thought they'd leave the poor souls and just try and recover the recorders, but it seems they actually want to recover the fuselage?

Second thought: How will it be done? Is there a capable successor to the Glomar Explorer that'll be able to salvage stuff from such a depth?

[Edited shortly after original posting to reflect recent press statements]

[Bobman84]

What could be recovered for 5M€? Surely not the wreckage itself. It sounds to me rather like they are hoping to go directly for the recorders.

Anyway, maybe best to leave the poor souls where they are, and concentrate on the data firstPitot tubes would be worth a look, just as was the case in the Aero Peru & Birgenair crashes in 1996.

[keitaidenwa]

1. The debris field exact location is not to be disclosed (in the North West large abyssal plain about 10 NM from LKP) for security reasons.

This area was combed already in the previous search(es). Would be interesting to see how the previous sonar images of the debris field look compared to the latest one where it was actually located.

[Rengineer]

Pitot tubes would be worth a look, just as was the case in the Aero Peru & Birgenair crashes in 1996.

I agree Bobman. Must say I'm impressed by the fleet that has been mentioned by takata just as I was writing my post - the Ares specially seems to have quite a record in deep-sea aircraft recovery. Maybe we will see the end of the quest someday, after all.

[auv-ee]

This AP report mentions what pictures were shown at the press conference (does not show them). Otherwise it does not contain much more information than what takata already posted.

Quad-Cities Online (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_FRANCE_BRAZIL_PLANE_CRASH?SITE=ILMOL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

[SaturnV]

keitaidenwa, how do you know the exact location where the main wreckage has been found was searched during the previous phase? See mm43's maps which indicate there were gaps in the previous searches, and the first task for Woods Hole was to search the areas near the LKP that had not been searched before.

[Vitamine]

The debris field is in a location that wasn't searched previously. The distance from the LKP is not to be disclosed, but is "close".

[Vitamine]

Another picture here.

Crash Rio-Paris : les premières images de l'épave - France - TF1 News (http://lci.tf1.fr/france/faits-divers/2011-04/crash-rio-paris-les-premieres-images-de-l-epave-6356755.html)

[takata]

What could be recovered for 5M€? Surely not the wreckage itself? From the press articles, though, that sounds to be the intention. I'd have thought they'd leave the poor souls and just try and recover the recorders, but it seems they actually want to recover the fuselage?This is obviously not aimed at recovering the whole wreckage ; main goals are:
1. finding and recovering the flight recorders;
2. finding and recovering the maintenance computer;
3. recovering the passenger bodies;

If needed (in case those recorders canot be exploited to fully understand the crash) any other pieces of the wreckage that could be usefull for the investigation to understand the crash would also be recovered.

Detailed pictures in situ can also tell a lot to the BEA without the need to recover all of them.

[keitaidenwa]

keitaidenwa, how do you know the exact location where the main wreckage has been found was searched during the previous phase? See mm43's maps which indicate there were gaps in the previous searches, and the first task for Woods Hole was to search the areas near the LKP that had not been searched before.

My mistake then.. I was under impression that northwest directions specifically were already searched.

[slf99]

Pictures are on the BEA website:

Oprations de recherche en mer (http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/operations.de.recherches.en.mer.phase.4.php)

[takata]

My mistake then.. I was under impression that northwest directions specifically were already searched.In fact, it was by other means than sonar (acoustic search or aerial search and rescue). For this phase, they decided to discard any means other than specific deep sonar investigation.

[Gerard13]

In case no one else has yet posted this information, here is the link to pictures shown by the BEA on its web site:

Oprations de recherche en mer : images du site (http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images.du.site.php)

[murphair]

Some of the news reports suggest that the field was found on a wide, flat area fairly close to the LKP. If so, why was the signal sent by the boxes not detectable early on in the search? Sorry if this is a dumb question!

[milsabords]

Is the place where the AC has been found near the area where the Emeraude sub heard pings from the recorders ?

[Gerard13]

point.presse.4avril2011.pdf

[OleOle]

Oprations de recherche en mer : images du site (http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images.du.site.php)

[ushumgal]

Is the place where the AC has been found near the area where the Emeraude sub heard pings from the recorders ?

No, the pings were detected (very faintly) at the extreme west edge of the search radius. Which calls into question the detection - acoustic searches were made much closer to the wreck site than that.

Though, one consideration to bear in mind - we have not yet seen any wreckage of the tail section, where the recorders would be. It could possibly have broken off (in the air or at impact) and, being more buoyant than the rest of the airframe, could have drifted farther as it settled to the seabed.

[skadi]

Publication BEA with pics and position:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.presse.4avril2011.pdf

skadi

[boguing]

Can anybody tell whether the gear was up or down?

[takata]

Wreckage:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/wreckage.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/wing.jpg


http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/landing-gear-b.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/landing-gear-a.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/engine-b.jpg

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/engine-a.jpg

[Vitamine]

During the press conference, there was one question about the landing gear. The answer was something like "probably ejected when the plane hit the surface". At least, would mean it wasn't necessarily down.

[RatherBeFlying]

The last page of the presentation shows the location about 10 km at about 010 from LKP.

The cowlings have been blown off the engines. There are some big pieces, but so far I don't see or expect any intact fuselage sections.

Where exactly are the CVR and FDR mounted in what kind of structure?

[robertbartsch]

...does anyone have an idea of how they would lift the wreckage to the surface from that extreme depth (+13,000 feet)? I assume the pictures have been taken by an un-manned sub; right?

[Vitamine]

Better be cautious with the last page. It points a specific location, but during the press conference it was made clear the plane was "somewhere" in that abyssal plain, so the map means nothing more. They definitely don't want abyssal paparazis.

[HazelNuts39]

Can anybody tell whether the gear was up or down? To my untrained eye, the fourth picture in takata's sequence shows the (RH?) main gear in the extended position, with some outboard wing structure still attached.

regards,
HN39

[takata]

The last page of the presentation shows the location about 10 km at about 010 from LKP.

The arrow is pointing at the location of the abyssal plain, not to the crash site which is located somewhere on this dark blue spot.

[takata]

...does anyone have an idea of how they would lift the wreckage to the surface from that extreme depth (+13,000 feet)? I assume the pictures have been taken by an un-manned sub; right?

It is taken from one of the three Remus (those small yellow torpedoes used for scanning the sea bed) in another close up dive for taking those pictures after completing their area scan.
For the lift to the surface, they would certainly use some inflatable stuff attached by ROVs.

[Chris Scott]

HN39,
I agree that one of the MLGs looks down (not sure which). Perhaps the uplock could have been disengaged by the sea-level impact, and loss of hydraulics might allow it to dangle?

takata,
d'Achord. It's still surprisingly close to the LKP.

It will be interesting to have revealed the relative positions of the items pictured, not to mention the full inventory of aircraft parts present in this debris field. This section of the aeroplane seems to have been tracking about either 070 or 250 as it hit the plaine abyssale. Whether that tells us anything about in-flight heading is another matter.

[takata]

Chris
It's still surprisingly close to the LKP.

It will be interesting to have revealed the relative positions of the items pictured, not to mention the full inventory of aircraft parts present in this debris field. This section of the aeroplane seems to have been tracking about either 070 or 250 as it hit the plaine abyssale. They still don't have those informations at the moment. Those pictures are taken from the first close up to verify if it was the right site. It is what they are doing right now, taking the measures and geo-references of all the spoted wreckage (quadrillage).

And yes, it is still very close to the LKP when considering that the crash happened at least 5 minutes later than this "Last Know Position" was recorded (02.10) ...

[Machaca]

Here's an overlay of mm43's earlier map and today's BEA map:

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/AF447site03.jpg

The yellow circles are drawn at multiples of 10NM radii from the Last Known Position.

[damirc]

I find it rather interesting to notice, that the wreckage is generally spread east-west/west-east (flighpath should've been NNE). Unxpected.

(in reference to http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/msn109a700m.jpg)

D.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

From the state of the engine (s ?) .. seem's the contact with the sea was not a soft one ....
They shows evident signs of violent destruction IMHO

[Lonewolf_50]

Interesting...

I find it rather interesting to notice, that the wreckage is generally spread east-west/west-east (flighpath should've been NNE). Unxpected.

(in reference to http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....sn109a700m.jpg (http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/images/msn109a700m.jpg))

Consider three factors that would arrest momentum in the NNE direction of the flight as it was supposed to be flying at 30,000+ feet.

1. Aircraft was most likely not in controlled flight (more likely stalled). Had the stall been a simple "nose falls stall" it would a) have been more recoverable and b) likely been arrested before impact with the sea during the five mile plummet.

2. An upset/stall is likely to develop a rotational feature. The more the aircraft rotates, or has a post stall gyration, the less likely "initial heading" can be preserved during X rotations from 30,000+ feet to 0 feet.

3. Debris field has been subject to various oceanic influence, which were not necessarily aligned with the direction of flight. Unlike a crash that hits the ground, final resting place of this aircraft after impact will move ... in this case, due to both wind and water mass movements.

Put another way, I'd be stunned if the debris field were to have coincided with the selected course (NNE) that was to take the flight to Paris. Had they been able to maintain course/heading, I doubt they'd have crashed at all.

[damirc]

1. Aircraft was most likely not in controlled flight (more likely stalled). Had the stall been a simple "nose falls stall" it would a) have been more recoverable and b) likely been arrested before impact with the sea during the five mile plummet.

Well, the latest (Dec 2009 IIRC) report does seem to indicate the aircraft was near-wing level upon water contact.

3. Debris field has been subject to various oceanic influence, which were not necessarily aligned with the direction of flight. Unlike a crash that hits the ground, final resting place of this aircraft after impact will move ... in this case, due to both wind and water mass movements.

Point taken... still was the first thing that looked very odd. I would suspect that even upon water contact some forward moment (and some was supposed to have been present judging from material analysis) would've remained and would have formed at least the basic "spread" before floating to the seabed. But yes, I see your point. Too little info to make an (educated) guess.

Put another way, I'd be stunned if the debris field were to have coincided with the selected course (NNE) that was to take the flight to Paris. Had they been able to maintain course/heading, I doubt they'd have crashed at all.

Fully agree on that point. Too confused about both the location and the spread. :rolleyes:

D.

[Safety Concerns]

Lets hope the boxes are found and closure finally brought to this tragic incident.

[500N]

Question regarding the tyres in the photos. I am surprised they are not crushed / squashed by the pressure at that depth.

[ZimmerFly]

Looking closely at one of the tyres one can see that it has been ruptured near the rim. I assume it has returned to its uninflated shape..but is full of water at ambient (4000m) pressure.

[SaturnV]

Machaca, in the overlay to mm43's graphic, the location is probably to the west of the arrow tip. mm43 carefully drew the first day's aerial search grid (the yellow box) along the flight path, and unless the Brazilians were blind, the location is probably several kilometers to the west of that first search grid.

As has been discussed for many months, the subsequent searches in the several days following were to the right of that yellow box (i.e., to the east) along the flight path.

From an academic standpoint, it will be interesting to learn the reasons for the current and drift reconstructions having been off.

[thermalsniffer]

Interesting that the drift was not as chaotic as thought. Compare MM43's map at post 911 of this thread and this link below. Looking at the phase three search area it is a shame that they took a "bite out of the sandwich" in the search area. Understandable based on duration of flight from LKP, track deviation, etc. I guess the lesson is start at LKP and head out despite how smart we all think we are.

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/recherches.en.mer.pdf

[ttcse]

i would epect the tires to only lose their air when pressure was great enough to break the rubber seal with the rims, but not explode from the pressure.

I haven't read the BEA report but from what we've seen so far we can determne that:
- it was a relatively low speed impact (somewhere less than supersonic) with the ocean surface as the airframe wasn't broken into tiny bits
- if all sunken major airframe parts are recovered in that small area then those airframe parts were likely connected at impact rather than seperating at altitude,
- the fuselage was opened at some point (upon impact I expect) because the previously recovered galley came from within the cabin,
- we don't know how long it took sea creatures to consume those lost in the Titanic because searchers got there so many years later.

Glad to see they found it

[dfish]

France says finds bodies in Atlantic crash wreckage - Yahoo! News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/france-says-finds-bodies-atlantic-crash-wreckage-20110404-041706-771.html)

D. Fisher

[robertbartsch]

The CNN piece today said the oxygen masks were not imployed in the recovered wreckage and that implies the airfame was intact (pressurized) at the time of the ocean impact.

[HazelNuts39]

robertbartsch;

intact yes, pressurized no. The negative pressure relief valve equalized cabin pressure shortly before impact.

regards,
HN39

[ushumgal]

Is it just me, or does it look like the engine in the picture had not been turning at the moment of impact. If it had, you would expect fractured or bent blades all around, not just on one side, wouldn't you? Could suggest they suffered a flame out.

The missing blades presumably would have been around 6 o'clock position and were ripped away on impact, but since the engine wasn't turning, the blades that were closer to the 12 o'clock position were preserved. Sound plausible? Or am I thinking too much of props?

[Mr Optimistic]

Won't the location of the debris become very obvious once the recovery vessels turn up ? Before then, what is the risk beyond a boat load of photographers ?

[SaturnV]

Mr. Optimistic, it may be that France and/or Brazil need to establish a maritime security zone. and are working on the boundaries and procedures for doing so. If such a security zone is established, the national government(s) would be able to keep unwanted vessels and aircraft away.

[500N]

Do you really want a load of paparazi taking photos of an open hold with bodies inside it or the potential of a body being able to be seen via a window ?

After all, they would publish it if they got the photo.

I would like to see a Maritime exclusion zone around it.

.

[mm43]

Though the BEA have chosen to keep the exact location of the debris field secret, my best estimate would be that its about 335°T x 6.5NM from LKP. This is based solely on where I suspect the "Alucia" was working, i.e. she had completed the keyhole section in the rugged terrain to the NW and was working in an unfinished section to the south. I could also be totally wrong.:=

http://i51.tinypic.com/zoe4ci.jpg

Yellow circle radii are multiples of 10NM from Last Known Position.

[Machaca]

Added another overlay of debris recovery locations.

I wonder what items 9 and 11 are...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/AF447site04.jpg

[mm43]

Though I remember questioning the relevance of an item of debris located close to where the debris field is believed to be, I consequently dismissed the recorded location as being a transcription error where a handwritten 3,66 was later transcribed as 3,11 (3.66/3.11). I am starting to think that maybe that assumption was wrong, and the debris in question had made its way back to the surface.

Post #911 (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/395105-af-447-search-resume-46.html#post5682212) clearly shows the location and date of recovery of that debris item.

[lomapaseo]

Is it just me, or does it look like the engine in the picture had not been turning at the moment of impact. If it had, you would expect fractured or bent blades all around, not just on one side, wouldn't you? Could suggest they suffered a flame out.



I don't see any blades visible, non-rotating struts yes.

Of course the pics are4 quite low in resolution so far.

Occams razor suggests the most likely scenario is the engines were on the bottom of the wing when it hit flat shearing away all the soft structure around the engines (Large diameter cases and nacelle0, but leaving intermediate case behind the fan mostly intact.

Let's wait and see if any better photos show up.

[gbour]

After a high speed impact, the SR-111 MD11 disintegrated into 2 million (recovered) pieces*. CNN reported the biggest one was the size of a car door. The average length of the 160 miles of wire recovered was 3 ft. The large size of the debris spotted today clearly points to a very much lower speed at impact.

*Swissair 111 Crash Report Delayed (http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/sr111/Swiss-Airreptdelay.html)

[HazelNuts39]

This is the left main gear and inboard section of the [left] wing; the structure to the far right is the pylon mount for the left engine.

PJ2,
I know how familiar you are with the airplane and have never been near it myself. My comment was based on the lower wing skin visible just to the right of the upper end of the MLG leg, that is in the way of retracting the gear towards the right. If you are right, then it must be a wheel well door, since the gear retracts towards the fuselage. If that is a door, then it being in closed position would be counter to the theory that the gear was released from the uplock due to impact forces. Are you sure the structure to the far right is not a flap track (*)?

regards,
HN39

PS: (*)BEA Interim Report #2 has photographs of flap track 3 on pp.20-21

[mm43]

http://i34.tinypic.com/bg5kqh.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/sb3l88.jpg

From a previous post.

[rp122]

"Question regarding the tyres in the photos. I am surprised they are not crushed / squashed by the pressure at that depth."

Rapid water ingress. All air squeezed out.
But rubber itself is compressible.

So the tyres should look much smaller then normal, which I think they do.

[ZeeDoktor]

mm43, are you suggesting some kind of deep stall? I doubt an intact and in-CG air frame would maintain your depicted attitude and velocity vectors.

[HarryMann]

mm43, are you suggesting some kind of deep stall? I doubt an intact and in-CG air frame would maintain your depicted attitude and velocity vectors.

Why so?

deep stall or spin, vectors look about right?

[Chris Scott]

HN39,

You think you are looking forwards at the R/H MLG; whereas PJ2 sees himself looking aft at the L/H MLG.

However, the MLG is normally mounted on the rear spar, at the intersection point of a diagonal bracing spar, sometimes referred to as the "Bermuda triangle", so I agree with you that the top-right item is unlikely to be part of an engine pylon.

Chris

[mm43]

ZeeDoktor

I will need to go back and dig out the post which had the Attitude at Impact images included. I believe I was referring at the time to a form of Deep Stall where the aircraft was slowly spinning within the vortex it created. This possibly as a result of an non-recovered stall. The BEA in Interim Report No.1 made mention that the tail was rotating to port at impact.

[ZeeDoktor]

It would seem that based on the vectors, and if the A/C was within CG limits, positive pressure at elevator wing surface will induce pitch down moment, thus not maintaining positive pitch angle. There is no elevator shadowing from main wing components (which is the definition of a deep stall, really). Could a transport category aircraft be certified if a deep stall condition can be produced simply by stalling in a double flameout / power idle? I don't think so.

EDIT: Unless spinning of course, you are correct. It took an incredibly unfortunate conspiracy of fluid dynamics to get them into this state!

[SaturnV]

August 2006, the TU 154M near Donetsk, stall at 39,000 feet, [presumably flat] spin, fell 14,000 feet per minute max. Impacted 3 NM from the onset of the upset.

[wiggy]

Lots of use of the term "deep stall" here recently but don't you, almost by definition, need a T-tail for that?

[Chris Scott]

Yes HN39,

As I tried to explain, I'm with you on this one, for what it's worth. The engine and pylon are mounted on the front spar, so do not feature among the parts in question. We are looking forward at the R/H MLG.

[PJ2]

HN39, Chris, I agree with you, thanks - sharper eyes than mine. The other gear (partially buried truck) would be the left, then.

[ZeeDoktor]

@wiggy: Yes, for a classical deep stall. But if combined with a spin, you can produce a similar effect (a vortex) with non T-tail a/c. At which point, deep stall simply means a stall which you cannot terminate unless positive power input is available to re-attach air flow across control surfaces.

[Tailspin Turtle]

Lose control into a spiral dive due to a loss of instruments, go near sonic in the descent, come out of the overcast and be able to see the water and even the horizon what with lightning and/or the moon, roll to wings level, and pull really, really hard. If the flight control system will let you apply full-up elevator regardless of the angle of attack or g, the outcome could be that you hit the water wings level, nose up, and at a relatively low forward speed but with an unsurvivable rate of sink.

[wiggy]

ZeeDoktor

OK, , that makes sense, though wouldn't a spin by itself produce the postulated impact geometry (i.e is an aircraft rotating in a deep stall simply spinning in the classic sense of the "spinning" word) ?

[HazelNuts39]

Lots of use of the term "deep stall" here recentlyIt depends how you define "deep stall". For some it just means an AoA substantially greater than that at which the stall first manifests itself. The T-tail problem is the airplane being "locked-in" in that condition.

Could a transport category aircraft be certified if a deep stall condition can be produced simply by stallingAs far as I am aware, no one on this thread really knows how the airplane was certificated in this respect. Some contributors, for example PBL, on the basis of a literal interpretation of the relevant regulations, have suggested that an investigation of its stalling characteristics beyond "alpha max" was not required, by virtue of the AoA protections incorporated in its flight control system in "normal law".

That said I should emphasize that without further evidence, all talk about stall, deep stall, superstall, flat spin, etc. in relation to AF447 is just speculation and, IMHO, not the most likely scenario of what happened.

regards,
HN39

[SaturnV]

Tailspin turtle, only two problems with that scenario. One, there was no lightning with this particular complex; none detected by satellite, nor by ground stations. Apparently lightning is infrequent in the ITCZ. Two, the moon was behind them.

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/NASA-LIS_granule.01.2009.152.gif

A LH 744 on the same track saw no lightning, but did have St. Elmo's fire.

Also,
http://www.cloudsat.cira.colostate.edu/quicklook_images_remote/1A-AUX/1A-AUX.R04/2009/152/2009152022319_16452_CS_1A-AUX_GRANULE_P_R04_E00_1AA_small.png

http://www.cloudsat.cira.colostate.edu/quicklook_images_remote/1A-AUX/1A-AUX.R04/2009/152/2009152022319_16452_CS_1A-AUX_GRANULE_P_R04_E00_1AA_large_31.png

http://www.cloudsat.cira.colostate.edu/quicklook_images_remote/IMAGES-WEB.P.R04/2009/152/2009152022319_16452_CS_2B-GEOPROF_Radar_Reflectivity_31.png

Source:
http://cloudsat.cira.colostate.edu/dpcStatusQLviewer.php?file=2009152022319_16452_CS_1A-AUX_GRANULE_P_R04_E00_1AA.htm

click on segment 31 for the radar profiles of the mesoscale convective complex.

[Machinbird]

I like this quote from D.P. Davies regarding "superstalls".
There is no point in discussing the irrecoverable case any further, except perhaps to say that those aeroplanes which have been lost in such manoeuvres finally reached the ground substantially level laterally, having defied all efforts to roll or spin them out of the stabilized condition; only slightly nose down in pitch, with little or no forward speed; at an extremely high incidence; rotating only very slowly in yaw; with (in one case) all the engines flamed out because of being exposed to such massive angles of incidence; and finally with an enormous vertical velocity.
The quote seems very relevant to AF447.

HN39 quote:
As far as I am aware, no one on this thread really knows how the airplane was certificated in this respect. Some contributors, for example PBL, on the basis of a literal interpretation of the relevant regulations, have suggested that an investigation of its stalling characteristics beyond "alpha max" was not required, by virtue of the AoA protections incorporated in its flight control system in "normal law". In the vicinity of alpha max I would expect predictable stall behavior.
Well beyond alpha max, I would expect stall characteristics approaching those of a swept wing flat plate airfoil-in other words, terrible.
That work-of-art Airbus airfoil, optimized for cruise, was probably never even tested well past alpha max. I expect that the Airbus AOA protection system was considered to be better than a stick pusher and thus sufficient to prevent flight outside the design flight envelope.
Somehow, AF447 exceeded its design envelope, and that is the question which the information from the black boxes needs to answer.
It may well be more complex than pitot icing. Let us hope that the information is still available.

[mm43]

Machinbird;

Terminology surrounding a deep stall can be confusing, but D.P. Davies' quote puts it all into context. Once you get there, there is probably no way out (without a tail 'chute).

[ttcse]

ZeeDoctor,

Keep in mind that your basic swept wing tends to tip-stall first. This causes a shift in center-of-lift forward and my understanding is that therefore swept wings are inheritantly more succeptable to deep-stalls than straight-wings. I don't know what kind of protections modern transport category aircraft have to prevent this but any computerized protections for AF447 were believed to be unavailable.