KOREAN AIRLINES - 10 days ON & 8 OFF policy

[bluewater]

Hi Guys

Honesty pays. I am a 777 Captain with Emirates and looking at Korean Airlines with an AUCKLAND base. Been on the radar for some time but due my personal circumstance with children, it was not suitable. Recently I heard that Korean has adopted a “new policy” option: YES or NO?

Queries:

10 days ON & 8 days OFF.
Are flights rostered “in/out” of your own base ie. AKL?
Is there any opportunity to “operate” back to your home base during the 10 days?
Is this in writing and/or verbal?
Is it working in practice?

Any additional info appreciated for guys based in NZ.

Any chance anyone can personal mail me that may have left Emirates for
Korean.

Safe flying
BW

[fourgolds]

Not sure about the new days off. Check with the contract agency they are quite forthcoming with that sort of info.

Good luck , I,ll tell you this though. Be prepared to stand in a long line for this job. There is inspite of the adds for non type rated guys no shortage of highly qualified applicants. Like yourself EK , EY, QR , SQ , BA etc. All looking at this job.

Also a very high failure rate ( on line training once you have been selected and resigned)

Good luck , dont blame you for wanting to change though. It is a risk.

[radioactive540]

Just wanna say, from what I know, Korean Airlines's 2008 B777 training washout rate on 2 classes were 90% and 100%. Sometimes I just wonder why experienced pilots got washout in KE... :ugh:

anyways, good luck with KE.

[Mactor]

Anyone know why there is such a high failure rate? I'm thinking of going as a non-rated 330 capt, but a don't want to pay for a rating if there's a high risk of being chopped during line training!!

[minibus330]

It is obvious non-rated pilots are subjected to a higher failure rate than type-rated pilots in KAL. Of course a non-rated pilot will take some time to settle down in a new aircraft type compared to one who is type-experienced.
KAL is not in the business of retaining anyone is is not up to their standard, regardless of experience level. Afterall, the rating is at your expense ... it doesn't cost KAL a cent. So if you are new on type, it's going to be tough trying to impress.

[johntrav69]

bluewater, I think what you are referring to is the option3/4 as KAL call it, this gives 2 times 7 days off per month at your home base, however there are limited bases available and at the moment AKL does not appear on the list. It is unwritten, you can request but no promises if your base is listed. Basically you would operate ICN-wherever-ICN twice a month with 7 days off at the base because you are already operating there twice a month you would be very unlikely to get another trip there on the days you are back in ICN. This system works much better for most people if you are lucky enough to have your base as one of those on offer, however for the 777 it is currently only Sao Paulo and YVR was also on the list but I believe it may have been removed. Sorry this doesnt help but at least you know. For anyone else interested the only other aircraft available for this at the moment is the B744 and the bases listed on the last request from KAL were LAX,SYD.FRA,CDG,LHR but there may be more someone may be able to add to this. Remember that this wont be written in the contract and it is purely at KAL's discretion but so far they have been very good on it. The two blocks of 7 days are allocated by KAL, you can request days but no promises, however if you require specific days off you can switch back to normal scheduling as you require on a month by month basis so very flexible provided it is not during the main holiday times.

[ShockWave]

Howdy BW,
KAL is way different than EK to fly for. Professionally I found EK much better, but in the end life in the UAE with EK forced me to jump to KAL. Commuting to OZ is working well but it is still a long time away from home each month.
The bases for the 7 off 10 on (or whatever you end up with) change every time there is a seasonal equipment change. Last month there was an A330 Syd basing this month it is an 747 basing, hopefully in Jan or Feb it may be an 777.
Do not plan your career move on this basing policy, they are good if you can get them but they are not contractual or permanent.

[ShockWave]

Mactor re the KAL failure rate....the following is pasted from what I wrote on another thread because I am to lazy to start again.

An OIC attitude will be much better than a confrontational one, but is absolutely no guarantee of a problem free existence thru line training.
It is not simply a matter of keeping your head down, there are numerous politics and other unusual frictions involved.
I know of no DECs who have had a ripple free transition into KAL and I am working for KAL. Some get thru with less drama than others, but it is never easy.
You will have at least two line training capts. One will do most of your training. You may also end up with having many different guys. If just one guy writes something bad the others will not have the balls to then say something good. They run very scared of being responsible for their actions. Rightly or wrongly they believe that every moment you are employed by KAL they can be held responsible for your actions throughout your career. It is very much easier for them to write bad things about you than good, that way they can cover their backside if someone fails you or you are involved in an incident later.
There are not enough Korean pilots to employ as first officers, so expat FOs seem to have no difficulties during training especially as they will not be given an opportunity to upgrade. There is very little or no resentment towards them.
DECs are viewed and treated very differently.

The KAL training department currently struggles to control what occurs during LT to foreign Captains. A380 DEC training will be an absolute nightmare for anyone if it ever happens.

Also, the successful completion of line training is not an end to the possibility of being screwed with. For some it never ends.

[azlee_19]

Bit off topic, SW, has there been any 777 FO employed yet? Heard that they failed every FO who comes..

[johntrav69]

SW, remember that some of the bases run on the 744 even though the pax may be different so for instance, SYD has been on this option for a long time due to the fact that the freighter runs non stop through the year even though the pax a/c may change due to seasonal demand. Not that this helps of course if you are 777 but of interest nonetheless i am sure for some.

[johntrav69]

azlee_19,
Trust me no 777 fo should come unless they have no job, no command decreed by the CAA of Korea and they dont change for 2.5 years and even then it may not change so dead end there absolutely no questions... for now LOL. I wouldnt say you have been warned I would go so far as to say you have been told. Ask any FO in the company where their career prospects lie and it wont be in KAL, shame really.

[fatbus]

What are the contract companies telling FO's about upgrades? It's not going to happen and as johntrav69 has said , you have been told.
Basings are one thing and so are the rosters but you have been sold a line if you think you will upgrade at KAL. Good luck to those who need a job, thats different.

[flamingmoe]

What would be the best agency to go through for a B737NG captain?

[azlee_19]

SW, i don't have a job, thats why. Have they employed any 777 fo?

[ShockWave]

I am yet to meet any 777 f/o trainees, but have heard they will be here soon.
So not sure really.
You will not be a threat to anyones eventual upgrade so do not see many problems with the job. The expat f/os I know here seam to get on fine and probably complain a lot less than other airlines I have worked at.
As a short term job prospect, I think it could be worthwhile depending on personal circumstances. Longer term, depending on your situation, the sandpit is probably better for upgrade etc.

[flamingmoe]

Direct from the contracting agency, 10 days on/8 off doesn't exist, this is a figment of someone's over-active imagination...sure would be nice though!

[fatbus]

8 on 6 off did exist out of YVR on the 777 for awhile, like someone has already said that sort of thing changes to suit the company

[frozenpilot]

Evening all,

Sorry to take this topic a little further from the current sunject, but I couldn't find any other relavant threads.

I am shortly to be made redundant from my Airline in the UK as an F/O with 737/757/767 timeand long haul etc. I am currently considering the Korean contract, chiefly for 737 as I am current on type, but I am interested in the 777. I would appreciate your views on the life style of this contract, whether I would be wise to stick my neck out for a 777 rating or stick with the 737? I am looking at this job as short term ( 3 years max) so upgrade is irrelevant, I just want to keep my head down try and save some cash and get back into a UK Airline when things pick up. I would also appreciate any info on the interview.


Cheers!

[fatbus]

After the 3 years at KAL what would be your plans? Staying on the 73 you might be able to find a Capt position but that would not likely be avail on the 777. 73 flying out of SEL would be alot of work but great experience, you might find a slightly larger number of expat Capt's as well

[411A]

Agree with fatbus...stick with the 737.
That airplane is now what the 707 was many years ago...IE: most everyone has one and positions are easier to find, promotion likely more rapid.
Best of luck.

[woldo]

Hi frozenpilot,

just in case you´re looking for a B777 Type Rating Partner, let me know. I passed the screening and I´m going for NTR B777 at KAL.

Regards
woldo :ok:

[frozenpilot]

Morning,

Thanks for the posts. To be honest I dont know if I can be bothered going through another rating with no certainty at the end. My plan for 3 years is to not loose the house, hopefully keep in favour with the missus (ie commuting contract) and then return to the Airline I currently work for as we will be offered right of returns. But hey, Im flexible if command came up with Korean on a 737 that would be great.

For those of you on the contract (particularly 73 drivers) can you advise what a typical roster is like? How many sectors you do? routes. Also can anyone confirm the per diem's are on top of the package value, as the contract company states total package value, then discusses per diem, which is obviously a variable so surely is not included in the package value?? I would also really appreciate any info on the interview, PM's welcome!


Thanks for the advice!

Walso, thanks for your post, if becomes relevant will contact you.

[Capt Chambo]

The SEARCH function is your friend...

For those of you on the contract (particularly 73 drivers) can you advise what a typical roster is like?

Briefly, after being checked to line you will be in Seoul 18(ish) days per month and you will fly about 5 ON followed by 1 OFF in a repetitive cycle.

How many sectors you do?

If you get a lot of domestics you will do a max. of 4 sectors per day (plus maybe 1 positioning). If you get a lot of SE Asia sectors then it's 2 sectors over 3 days. Normally the rosters are a mixture of domestics and Internationals and I reckon I average about 25 sectors a month.

Also can anyone confirm the per diem's are on top of the package value, as the contract company states total package value, then discusses per diem, which is obviously a variable so surely is not included in the package value??

Per diems are in addition to the salary offered by your agency.

But hey, Im flexible if command came up with Korean on a 737 that would be great.

There will be frogs doing fractions before you get an upgrade. :}

[Brave heart]

Hi BW,
Sorry for the late reply, hope this will enlighten some of the dilemmas that you may have. Option 3 & 4 as they call them are available providing there are sufficient number of pilots willing to participate in the program. Think it is 6… It works, people involved are quite happy, though the options depend on the type of the aircraft operating the base. KAL changes the type, seasonally, and that affects the program.
It is an option at the end but it is offered when and if available…
For the option you are operating to and back from home base (AKL….). If you are not in option than you operate the original pattern 9+2 plus the days for commuting and you are DH home in that case. That leaves you with option to travel somewhere else… You do not have to go home. Instead you may take yours somebody to holidays to some of the KAL destinations…
Training wise, yes there were dropouts, unusually high for the profile and experience but… KAL puts you on the 4 flights (8 sectors) for you to prove that you have adopted required SOP and policies. That’s all. You do not have much time to play around, the sooner you call the checklist proper names and give the required callouts you’re a winner. People are failing to recognize this, especially those who spent their entire carrier in one establishment. The name of the game is “do as you’re told”…

Here is the letter from scheduling received sometimes in May...

Dear Foreign Pilot
- We receive new day off program (OPTION3 and 4) applicant for foreign crew members from JUL ~ SEP 2009.
Please apply when the base below apply to you. It shall be effective when the minimum number of crew apply.
(If there are too many applicants, the applicants who apply for 3 months shall be assigned preferentially)
- Applicable base
B744 : LAX,ORD,CDG,LHR,FCO,FRA,LAX,AMS,VIE,SYD
B777 : DFW,YYZ,CAI,AKL,PRG,GRU,SVO, LAX, YVR-SEA
A330 : SYD,LED,KUL

- Crew members who are interested shall apply through mail to Mr.---- writing request by 10JUN.
We will try our best for you to stay at your home base on those days.
Days off which were requested before shall be deleted when it"s newly applied this time.

=========== Basic information Home base program ===============

option 3 option 4
LAYOVER 168 HR (7 days local) 192HR (8 days local)
Assignment 12 times every 6 months 11 times every 6 months
DO COUNT 5 days 6 days
Pattern length 9 days 10 days

- No perdiem, no Hotel when arriving at home base (exceptionally, hotel is provided on arrival day/departure day only for flight crews whose home is far.)
- If you want to stay special day request : we consider it"s possible , no guarantee.
- All Days off and Leaves can be counted and reflected at the end of the year.


Good Luck...KAL contract is still the best commuting contract available...:ok:

[woldo]

Thank you very much, brave heart :ok: ! Most of the users here in this forum are quite negative about everything. They seem to be the same like the usual complainers here on PP. It´s really good to read something like your PM. Thanks for that good news!

[extreme P]

Thank you very much, brave heart ! Most of the users here in this forum are quite negative about everything. They seem to be the same like the usual complainers here on PP. It´s really good to read something like your PM. Thanks for that good news!

Please keep us updated on your progress with KAL. NTR DEC with KAL is a mine field.

[B737NG]

It is indeed the best commuting contract if ............

...... you make it thru training,

...... you are not under the radar,

...... you do not expect a upgrade,

I have seen many Guy´s burned out after a while, not because of the hours they fly or the sectors they do. Work is far off the limits, US and EU Operators are using the Crews more effective and up to the peak. You need a protective shield and "fit into the system" then you can state: It is the best, f**k the rest of all the sick and tired wannabee operators who promise you a commute and would like to place you in the cargo-hold if they could. You do not have to beg for a seat in KAL when you commute, it is there for you, no doubt. You have your money on time. There is other significant pain you have to bear with, can you stand it? then welcome to the Club. If you have doubts or a too big Ego then do not leave your present Job for a question mark. 6 out of 7 got chopped, 2 our of 4 did not survive the training. I cannot remember the past few years where the majority made it thru the training.

Again it is the best commuting Job, but why does KAL look permanently for Pilots? The Target is 800... And the screening is one of a kind as well. So think carefully and consider option if it get´s worse, be prepared and it may pay off as the best Job you ever had, keep home and commute. Have the Family and Kid´s (if you have one) where they are used to be.

It is not meant to be negative but open Your eyes and your senses and do not turn a blind eye towards the facts what the people state.

Fly safe and land Happy

NG