croydon aerodrome air safety

[diddy1234]

Hi All

I don't want to sound morbid, but did Croydon aerodrome have an unblemished air safety record ?

[one11]

did Croydon aerodrome have an unblemished air safety record ?

No, although fatalities were relatively few. The worst pre-war wreck, which killed autogiro pioneer Juan Cierva and 13 other passengers and 2 crew, was KLM DC-2 PH-AKL which crashed on take off 9/12/1936. Post war this was exceeded on 25/1/47 by another take off crash when a Rhodesian DC-3struck a Czech DC-3 with the loss of 18 in all.

Earlier an Imperial DH.34 crashed in Purley on Christmas Eve 1924 with the loss of 8 lives after failing to gain height after take off. This showed up the inadequacies of the original Plough Lane field and resulted in the extension of the airfield to the size which it maintained through the 30s and 40s to closure in the 50s.

There was one other fatal crash , 2 persons on an Air France LeO 213 which struck a radio mast on take-off, 22/12/34. Also at least 7 non fatal crashes pre war.
....Doug

[WHBM]

The various pre-war incidents are described in a separate chapter of the book "Croydon Airport The Great Days 1928-39", published by the London Borough of Sutton (surprisingly much of the airport is in Sutton, not Croydon). The houses in Foresters Drive around the south side of the airfield seem to have received more than their fair share of misfortunes.

[pontifex]

My parents lived in Foresters Drive which was on the boundary of the airfield before I was born. They told me that a DH 34 took the chimney stack off the house but I don't suppose that will figure in the stats because people took such things fairly calmly in those days.

[WHBM]

.....a DH 34 took the chimney stack off the house but I don't suppose that will figure in the stats because people took such things fairly calmly in those days.
This not unknown type of incident was caused from time to time by the use of long wireless aerials trailing below the aircraft, which were wound in and out from the cockpit for takeoff/landing by the wireless operator. Forgetfulness during the downwind checks (if they had such a concept then), aerial stuck, winding handle breaking off, etc would lead to the cable striking the ground on finals, house roof tiles etc being a prime recipient.

[Cremeegg]

There used to be (early 1970's) clear evidence of some damage to one of the many pairs of semi-detached houses in Foresters Drive just south of Waterers Rise on the north western corner of the field. The southern half of the semi had teh original hipped roof; the northern (damaged) half had a repaired roof but with a gable end. Obviously a cheaper repair at the time when materials were scarce.

Last time I was over that way I noticed that both roofs were now the same - pity.

I'm sure "Treaders" will be on here soon giving us the benefit of his more detailed local knowledge.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I seem to recall something like Airspeed Oxford crashing on to the roof of a church on the corner of Stafford Road and Woodcote Road Wallington - probably a little after the war.

Treaders, I think you and I have discussed this over a beer sometime.

Croydon, considering it pioneer status, had a remarkable history of safety. The DC-2 was by far the worst there IIRC. Incidentally, it had already aborted a take-off in fog - it was the second attempt that proved fatal.

[treadigraph]

Certainly have PP - I have a vague recollection of a DC-3 or a Viking perched atop a house which I think may have been at Northolt, but something similar but more destructive also happened at Croydon.

[KeMac]

I have two photographs of the burned out Czech DC 3 at Croydon taken by my father.

[one11]

Treadigraph... Yes the "rooftop" Railway Air Services DC-3 on 19 Dec 1946was ex-Northolt, no serious casualties on board or in the South Ruislip semi on which it settled - the house subsequently being re-named "Dakotas Rest".

http://middx.net/hillingdon/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2100

[johngreen]

Although it wasn't in the immediate vicinity of the aerodrome, the Sabena Airliner that crashed in nearby Tatsfield in December 1935 is presumably not the only mishap that occurred to planes heading for Croydon and which should therefore be counted as part of the less fortunate history.
I grew up in the village and though the event was well before my time, there are still oldies there today who remember the occasion. Back in those days there was a Plessy Air Lighthouse south of the settlement, one of a string that illuminated the course from the south coast to Croydon. (The site of this, now occupied by a radio mast, is still enclosed with the original wooden fence visible in old pictures of the beacon.)
Flight included a short comment on the report in November 1936:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203221.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203221.html)

Reflecting on the invariable responses so frequently encountered in this very forum upon contemporary incidents, I note there is also an article in Flight just a few days after the accident including the statement of "... a Croydon correspondent...' who had '...little doubt...' that ice formation had something to do with the loss of the aircraft. A few lines later, we are told that '...opinion among the pilots of five nations is unanimous ... 'That it was in no way the fault of that fine and experienced pilot..."
The AIB report on the accident however comes to the seemingly well considered opinion "That the accident must be attributed errors of judgement on the part of the pilot; errors to which the bad weather conditions undoubtedly contributed." having excluded the likelihood that ice was a contributing factor.

We are however assured by the writer earlier in the piece, referring to the professional fraternity at Croydon, that, “Pilots' gossip is often very illuminating, for they know what they are talking about.”
The more things change....

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935%20-2-%200728.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935%20-2-%200728.html)


jg

(Not perhaps so inviting noticing as I Googled to check my info that on the same page as the accident results is a current ad for Cheap Sabena Flights to Europe... )

[WHBM]

I Googled to check my info that on the same page as the accident results is a current ad for Cheap Sabena Flights to Europe... )
An interesting ad, seeing as Sabena went bankrupt and out of business in 2001 !

[johngreen]

...quite right... but it's still there....

Cheap Sabena Flights (http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=Cy-bZRnj9SuS7HJ-w4gb60ODTCo_n71LpoPzTBIH-u_IEEAMoBlCUw40tYLu-roPQCqAB-Y_T_gPIAQGqBBtP0GeePB4P9TD7n_QhgSo7Zdh0Yjl-Rc9IWHA&num=3&sig=AGiWqtxeQnmVCGcigTkFQGsi01pv8hTCKA&q=http://www.cheapeurope.com/flights/Sabena)

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[Props]

The story I like was that the Radio Officer left the Aircraft went into the attic down the stairs and caught a Bus back to Northolt

[Fournierf5]

total nonsense...? Anyone else have knowledge of this....

CROYDON: Is perfume warehouse hiding secret aircraft? (From This Is Local London) (http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/topstories/2415948.croydon_is_perfume_warehouse_hiding_secret_aircraft/)

[POBJOY]

It was hardly Croydons fault that aircraft outgrew its suitability for public transport operation.
The HP42's seemed to manage ok.and their huge tyres could cope with the grass surface.
The airport's site was no doubt chosen due to its good road links to London, and less flying distance to Paris.It was always prone to fog,and also no doubt to the dreaded "smog",and would get water logged with ease.With no chance of extending its TODA or TORA any post war flying was going to be limited,and without a tarmac runway any aircrafts takeofff performance was going to be weather limited.
However it served to put transport flying into the public gaze,and pioneered many features that we now take for granted.The classic terminal building was designed to be "passenger" friendly",and was a model of efficiency in its day.It took a while for the post war regulations to catch up with Croydons situation,but once the "metal monoplanes " went from J52's to DC3's its future was sealed,but past never forgotten.
AS a youngster growing up in the area i well remember the powerful rotating beacon that could be seen for miles (it reflected on low cloud very well),and the railway station at Banstead that had its name on its roof (a legacy to Croydons early radio days).
Pobjoy
BTC attended the first airshow there after it closed.

[T-21]

Miles Gemini G-AJZI Crashed on take off ,hit trees on high ground SW of the airport on flight to Milan ,crashed Ridge Park 27.2.48, 09:31 hrs. Pilot Wg/Cmdr W.H Wetton(ex Booker airfield owner ?) injured his passenger Mrs P .Beverley was killed. Presume heavy with fuel and baggage.

[POBJOY]

If you looked at the performance of the Gemini,and the time of the year the machine probably never had a real chance of clearing out of the bowl-like airfield.
PC
WB940 was a favourite barge for me.

[WHBM]

What was the pre-war reluctance with hard runways at the "major" airports of the time ? The significantly worse performance you get operating from grass really affected the low-powered types then around. 40% extra factor when operating off grass ? Could they not handle any crosswind and thus needed a circular field to give a landing/take-off in any direction ? Did fragile undercarriages need extra resilience ? Croydon had a hard apron but not runways.

Gatwick spent money on a new terminal and train station in 1936, only to have the whole lot become unusable due to waterlogging in the winter, and all the operators moved away.

I don't know if the runways were inadequate for DC3s and the like of the time; Croydon was 4,000 feet, and DC3s have operated effectively on comparable tasks from shorter strips. Tempelhof in Berlin was the grand new airport of Europe at the time, they had 5,500 feet and later operated 727 and One-Eleven jets out of there, and Comets to the Mediterranean, in the 1970s. Hard runway of course. I'm sure DC3s would get off in half that length.

[cithos]

Pobjoy (lovely little engine) mentions the Croydon beacon ...

There was an airways beacon light located on the west side (but maybe the east) of Grant's Lane, about half a mile north of Staffhurst Wood road. Grant's Lane runs north towards Hurst Green and Oxted on the Kent / Surrey boarder. As far as I know the concrete footing of the light assembly is still there ... it was in '50 when I lived in Edenbridge.

What a wonderful spot for aircraft spotting that was - all sorts of traffic following the railway line to and from Dover and Ashford, both military and civilian ... and the daily commercial traffic, DC3s, 4s, 6s, Connies heading off to Europe from London.

I was lucky to thumb a flight on a Rapide chartered by the BBC on the last day that Croydon was open - it needed a test flight before carrying out filming and the pilot (whom I had helped to push the aircraft out) kindly asked whether I would like to come along for the ride. Having returned to earth I then found myself being introduced to O.P. Jones who was being interviewed for the evening news ...

Ah! Youthful memories ...

[T-21]

A couple more :

Vickers Viking 1 G-AHPJ Hunting Air Travel heavy landing undercarriage collapsed 23 May 1947.
Miles Aerovan G-AISG North Sea Air Transport,Brough,Stalled after a steep take off with 604 racing pigeons as cargo. Pilot killed plus 2 injured. 446 lbs overloaded. 14. Jun 1947

[POBJOY]

WHBM asks why so many of our pre war civil airfields were only grass.
Yes, the aircraft then operating would have needed to take off into wind,and as many of them were without nav aids or gyro instuments winter flying was limited,so the expense of tarmac was not deemed worthwhile.
Fast forward to WW2 and you have a requirement for heavy aircraft to operate at any time,and therefore cost is secondary.
Gatwick blossomed later as a charter "inclusive flights" field and had to expand after the war as Londons "second airport" but only had a runway from 1958.
I never quite understood why it was not developed more during the war, but it was one of the few to escape the multiple runway additions of its regional partners,although it had the steel and wire tracking laid to reinforce the grass surface.
Croydon had nowhere to expand and therefore was closed as Gatwick rose from its waterlogged past.
The problem from operating off soft ground is the lack of performance information that gives you the exact distance you may need to get off with a safety margin,couple this with most grass airfields having to reduce the TORA at times and it becomes a commercial no no.
Of course Croydons demise was Biggin Hills gain,so at least the huge expansion of private flying in the 60's had somewhere to operate from.

[WHBM]

Croydon had nowhere to expand and therefore was closed.
That's not really a reason. Croydon had a longer runway, and much more apron/hangar space, than London City has, even in the latter's current expanded form.

[POBJOY]

WHBM, you seem to forget that the aircraft operating from Croydon in the 50's had nowhere near the performance of those at "stol port".
Not only that but Croydon sits in a "bowl", and whilst a runway would have helped it was never going to built after Gatwick was improved.
Even the RAF did not bother in improving facilities to any great extent,so i suspect with transport aircraft getting larger and heavier the writing was on the wall even then.Croydon could only have extended across the "Purley Way",but as this was a main route out of London,and on quite a slope, what was the point.With Heathrow,and Gatwick emerging as the future, Croydon was only ever going to continue as a club/light charter field,but no one was going to subsidise that with land in the area being eagerly sought for industry and housing.
Croydon has a proud history and at least is still a relatively open space,plus we have the terminal building and the Airport Hotel to remind us of its past glory in setting standards well ahead of its time.
Two world wars and the birthplace of our organised civil operations sounds a pretty good record to me,and is in good company with Kenley just up the road.
Pobjoy

[pasir]

Hi folks from BDP Apr 9 2010

Dont know if this is already covered but when I joined KLM at Croydon
as a junior straight from school in 1947 there was talk about a DC3 that during a severe snowstorm crashed on take-off - killing 12 pax
- 3 of whom were nuns and burned to death.

Flying as SPENCER AIRWAYS - I beleive the a/c was overloaded (18 pax and 5 crew) and most likely stalled on take-off - crashing into another DC3 that was on the ground.

Both a/c were Czech registered - The date Jan 25th 1947.


On another point KLM did have a DC4 once land at Croydon but
never repeated - staying with DAKs untill they moved out to LAP
about 1948

During the war a Lancaster also attempted to land at Croydon
- regretably with fatal results

[Graham the pipe]

I remember this incident extremely well, although I can not put an accurate date to it, other than to say it was 'post war' 1940s and I believe on a Sunday.

I then lived in Foresters Close, off Foresters Drive which flanked the western boundary of Croydon Airport. A De Havilland Rapide passed over our house after take off'. Looking out of the rear window of my parent's house I saw it descend, then a rising plume of black smoke.

The report of the crash was headline news in the National Press. The pilot, the only person on board, had tried to land in Stafford Road and could well have done - very little traffic in those days - had it not been for hitting the trolley bus wires as he nursed his stricken plane down. These slewed him towards a church which, from memory, had a full complement of children within. He then hit a dwarf wall, outside a garage, which slewed him again directly into a large tree separating him from the wall of the church.The plane exploded on impact, setting the tree alight and killing the pilot. The church wall was totally blackened by the heat but remained intact. Those the other side were in no way affected.

The front page news reports told the story of the 'miracle' tree, preventing a multitude of deaths and had pictorial drawings showing the descent, slewing and final impact.

[Warmtoast]

Graham the Pipe

DH Rapide Crash at Wallington 13th Sptember 1952

A couple of contemporary Press Cuttings below.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DHRapideCrash13thSeptember1952-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DHRapideCrash13thSeptember1952-2.jpg

[Warmtoast]

One11


Post war this was exceeded on 25/1/47 by another take off crash when a Rhodesian DC-3struck a Czech DC-3 with the loss of 18 in all.


Whilst researching the September 1952 Rapide crash I came across the following cuttings in the British press regarding the 1947 Dak crash at Croydon.

Fascinating reading from events sixty three-plus years ago.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-1.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-2.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-4.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-5.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-6.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-7.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-8.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-9.jpg
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DakotaCrash26thJan1947-10.jpg

[jmcarne]

My father was the pilot killed in the crash.

Does anyone have any more information about the history of the plane or pictures of the crash?

Jonathan Carne

[pasir]

Hi Jm

Regarding the Rapide crash in Wallington I am sorry I cannot add a lot to
what has already been outlined. Our family lived about a mile from the crash site - As stated the a/c crashed either on the Church or on the roof of the Garage showrooms next door. A Sainsbury supermarket now stands on the site of the church and Garage which I beleive went under the name of Rose Cars. My younger brother - Edward Phillips - who was working as a photographers assistant in business premises just the other side of the cross roads took several photos at the time - but I am afraid I have lost contact with him. If I come up with anything further I will advise.


Brian

[one11]

According to the Gatwick Aviation Soc publication deHavilland Biplane Transports, the Rapide was G-AIZI and had been owned by Mr Carne at Elstree since 31 Mar 1952 when acquired from Reid & Sigrest Ltd. They took it from the RAF in Dec 1946 where it had served in Berlin as serial NR785. It had been built at Loughborough by Brush Coachworks in 1945.

The same source attributes the crash to power loss on the starboard engine.

[Four Wings]

The first film made by the Shell Film Unit (in 1936) was 'Airport', actually a day in the life of Croydon Airport. Marvellous film (although nearly 50 years since I last viewed it). Anybody else seen it?

[Fly380]

Here's another view of Croydon Airport in the 30's.
YouTube - Croydon Airport in the 1930s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCXl-1V3P-w&feature=related)

[bassbellman]

As a boy attending Wallington Grammer School for Boys one of my classmates lived in a house in Lavender Vale which was different from its neighbours because it was built on the site of the house where the Lancaster crashed. I understood it was trying to make an emergency landing at Croydon. My friend's family found various relics when digging in the garden. My mother worked for an insurance agent who lived very close by and helped try to rescue the inhabitants of the house and/or the aircraft crew.

[pasir]

...Further to this incident - my father was on duty at Croydon that night
as an Air Ministry policeman and witnessed the Lancasters attempts to land
- It had been badly shot up with flak damage over enemy territory and was attempting to land at Croydon but probably had to overshoot - probably
realising that Croydon was too small - We lived in the next road parrallel
with Lavander - Milton Rd and my father feared it had crashed onto or
near our house and so rushed back to Wallington in the early hours - We were asleep in the Anderson shelter at the time - and sadly we were
taken out to view the Lancasters funeral pyre.

...

[bassbellman]

In response to PASIR's comment, Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers (http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=602) gives some more details of the specific Lancaster, ND582. PASIR's account of that night also got picked up in another forum - Lancaster crash - Croydon? (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?7925-Lancaster-crash-Croydon) .

[David Layne]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q137/DavidLayne/Croydoninthenearfuture.jpg

[gruntie]

Whilst having a look for any pics of Hanno's incident at Entebbe, I came across this one. Apparently it's the remains of the sole Vickers Velox (or Vellox?) which came to grief in Wallington in Aug 1936. Location is given as "South View Road", though I can't find that name on current maps.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/HU025041.jpg?size=67&uid=3378679b-7ba9-4168-9eec-ff9624bba5e3&uniqID=bd932173-8b7b-44bd-a3a1-75fa628c9b30

[treadigraph]

It could be Southview Gardens which is just off Sandy Lane South. My boss lives in Lavender Vale and is treasurer of the local cricket club, just a few yards away; will ask him if he knows anything.

He's mentioned the crash in Lavender Vale before!

[WHBM]

The Vickers Vellox accident (at 02.00 on 10 Aug 36) is described in the book I mentioned earlier in this thread "Croydon Airport the great days", including a photograph similar to the above, taken from the same place (but with different people standing and windows open, so not the same photo).

Vickers Vellox :

Vickers 212 Vellox - passenger (http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/vickers_vellox.php)

The houses struck were 14 and 16 Hillside Gardens, which appear (on Google Streetview) to be the houses at the junction with Southview Gardens (the photograph was possibly taken from an upstairs window of the first house in Southview Gardens), and the houses were damaged more by fire than by the impact. A policeman was badly burned trying to extract the crew, all four of whom were killed. This road is to the west of the airfield, about 2 streets west of Foresters Drive, whose houses received a number of pre-war accidents.

[Old-Duffer]

On 13 Feb 46 a Dakota of 435 Sqn crashed on approach to Croydon with the loss of 8 lives.

One of the passengers could not be found immediately but it transpired that he was an RAF officer who simply left the crash site and made his own way to London because, quote: 'he didn't want to be late for a meeting at Air Ministry'!!

So this man left 8 dead people and another 8 injured people to fend for themselves, so as not to keep anybody in Adastral House waiting. Such devotion to duty!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Duffer (still can't believe it)

[RFbus]

In reply especially to Jonathan Carne's query (posted on 2/11/2010) about pictures of the above crash in which his father, Rodney Reuben Carne, sadly died, my son Peter recently came upon the following website with four photos.

http://www.alamy.com then search: B52M2K

this will show the main photo with thumbnails of the other three below it.

if that fails, an alternative route to the same page is:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-scene-of-the-de-havilland-rapide-crash-at-the-shopping-centre-20343307

I would have been only just one year old at the time of the crash and have lived in Wallington all my life and remember my parents telling me of a plane crash in Wallington but assumed (I think) that it was during the last war. I'm interested in transport of all types, having owned a preserved ex-London Transport bus since 1970 and in more recent years have become interested in local history.
Living near Roundshaw Park as a boy, my mates and I used to play in the long grass just inside the delapidated wire-mesh fences of Croydon Airport but kept well away from the Tiger Moth trainers that were landing and taking off at that time! We were never challenged by anyone but if it could happen today would no doubt have been spotted on CCTV and the armed anti-terrorist squad called!
One of the newspaper cuttings mentions that Rodney Carne lived at Cuckoo Hill Road, Pinner at the time, the same road as some good friends of mine who were some of the founders of the Cobham Bus Museum were living in the late 60's/early 70's - small world!

[Karl W Smith]

I lived about a mile from the old airport in the 1930's; my father worked there for Imperial Airways from 1934 to 1950 apart from the war years 1940 to 45 when he was sent to Treforest in South Wales. My uncle/godfather worked ther from the opening as London Airport until the outbreak of war in 1939, he was Imperial's Chief Inspector for most of that time. He remained with the airline and its successive identities until retiring in 1959. I learned to fly there with the Surrey & Kent Flying Club and flew as passenger in a Leopard Moth on its last flight out of Croydon to Biggin Hill. Thus my family had connections throughout its civil working life.

In recent weeks I have been re-reading James Hamilton Patterson's book, Empire of the Clouds, that deals primarily with aircraft of the post 1945 wars but t has triggered memories and is helping me with my own book that has been only about 10 years in preparation to date! One day, maybe, I'll consider it finished and look for a publisher.

Anyway, back to Croydon. Croydon became London Airport in the early 1920's and evolved from Waddon Aerodrome that was used by the machines built at National Aircraft Factory No 1. In 1939 it was taken over by the RAF as a fighter base for the defence of Londoon and south east England, all civilians were sent off site, in my father's case to a factory in Commerce Way, Croydon, later to Treforest. My uncle went overnght 3/4 September in an obviously pre-planned move to the Grand Spa Hotel in Bristol!. In 1938 he changed roles from Chief Inspector to join the Chief Engineer's Department. The Chief Engineer at that time was Major Mayo of Mayo Composite fame (the piggyback seaplane combination of Maia and Mercury built by Short Brothers at Rochester).

The wartime introduction of heavy bombers generated a need for hard runways that, post war, became available for the transport derivative aircraft so that Croydon's grass airfield was not suitable nor was there any potential for expansion. BOAC (post 1940 successor to Imperial) re-opened Croydon as a maintenance base flying the Lancastrians, Haltons and Yorks in and out unladen. But the next generation of airliners was coming as was Heathrow, Croydon's days were numbered, but operators of smaller aircraft continued for many years.

In those remaining post war years I believe that there were daily early morning newspaper flights to the Channel Islands, to return with loads such as flowers and tomatoes. I think Avro Ansons were commonly used for this task and I often heard each of the two engines run up in turn for pre-take off magneto drop checks at about 0530. One morning the take-off ended in disaster because the arcraft failed to clear the hangar at the north end of runway 17 where it was to be see "parked" on the roof of an outbuilding. Apparently the pilot suffered a broken leg but both engines fell out into the hangar damaging several aircraft inside! At least, I think that's how it happened.

I spent more than 60 years working in aviation based posts and it amuses me to think that for most of the 1950's I spent my weekdays working as a minor member of the design team producing what was to become Britain's longest serving, fastest, highest flying longest range and heaviest load carrier of the V bomber force while my weekends were linked with 30 plus year old biplane trainers, Tiger Moths. Quite a contrast.

[POBJOY]

Prior to WW2 Aerodromes were essentially grass and aircraft operated into wind as the norm, with aircraft performance and the ability to fly on one engine not the safety issues as of now.
The pre war machines tended to have fixed UC and large wheels as this suited the natural surface available, so no one was really used to 'runways' as we know them now. When the metal monoplane became the standard design of most aircraft, the wing loading and weight coupled with smaller wheels made grass an unreliable surface due to its loss of bearing strength when wet. The RAF realised this during the expansion period and could see that it was no good having a modern fighter force that could easily be grounded by the local weather conditions, so the classic 3 runway airfield became the new standard for them. Many of the pre war civil municipal 'Airports' were never converted to this standard and Croydon was one of them. It seems ludicrous now that when Vickers test flew the Valiant prototype they did so from the still waterlogged grass surface at Wisley and he aircraft ruined the surface with huge ruts. Gatwick was well know for being prone to surface problems but the thinking of the day was INTO WIND not why is this not working. Croydons original advantage was its links to London and being closer to the popular destination of the time Paris. In fact Croydon pioneered many of the Air Traffic rues that became the norm and its terminal was a model of what we know would call passenger transit. Croydon was always surrounded on three sides by built up area's so it could never expand its directions to cater for increased performance regulations, and the Government wanted the Civil trade to go to the improving Gatwick anyway. It played its part in the Battle of Britain when needed, so all in all it did its bit for us in two conflicts, and also pioneered Civil Aviation in this country. Gets my vote.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Employed by BOAC as a pilot in 1958 but initially used as a navigator, so to ensure that we kept our pilot licences valid BOAC established a fleet of Chipmunks at Croydon, and paid for us to fly the minimum 6 hours and 6 landings every 6 months. Croydon was closed shortly after I started, and the BOAC Chipmunks moved to White Waltham,

My logbook shows a flight from Croydon to Lympne and return on 21st March 1959 and then a flight on August 7th out of White Waltham, so obviously not the last, but clearly one of the last to fly in and out of Croydon.

[Wander00]

Cuckoo Hill Road, eh. I Lived in Eastcote from 3 months until I joined the RAF in 63. Remember Cuckoo Hill Road well, and now realise why the name Carne stirred a memory - my parents talked about him later in the context of another accident - cannot recall which after all this time.

[rolling20]

When the metal monoplane became the standard design of most aircraft, the wing loading and weight coupled with smaller wheels made grass an unreliable surface due to its loss of bearing strength when wet. The RAF realised this during the expansion period and could see that it was no good having a modern fighter force that could easily be grounded by the local weather conditions, so the classic 3 runway airfield became the new standard for them.
I am not sure if you are referring to hard runways there? Fighter Command operated from grass in the Battle of Britain and it wasn't until August 1942 that the standard RAF pattern for a 3 hard runway configuration was laid down, although this was primarily for Bomber Command.

[Haraka]

I remember watching the beacon at Croydon lighting up my room at night in the '50's when I stayed with my Gran at Coulsdon.

[POBJOY]

Rolling 20
Runways were being introduced to the existing airfields before the Battle of Britain, and certainly Kenley (Croydons sector airfield) had them in place by 1940. At the same time a peri trac and blast bays were introduced.
The multiple layout had to be available due to the need for an in to wind option for maximum efficiency. This was a 'crash' program with works in progress still going on at the start of the Battle. The sector stations were the priority with the likes of Redhill, Gatwick, Croydon, Gravesend, never getting any during hostilities. Croydon was busy during the Battle for France but the civil fleet went to Whitchurch (Bristol) afterwards. Fighter command rotated Squadrons through Croydon with Kenley being its control.
Croydon Airport sat in a shallow 'bowl' surrounded by suburbia, and could never escape the length limiting situation that was not a problem for the biplanes of the day. It seems to have had a regular mist/fog problem plus would have also been affected by the 'smogs' that prevailed. Its only concession to tarmac was the large apron and a turning area onto the most used runway. That turning area is still there and used to be used by model aircraft enthusiasts. Banstead Station had its name on the roof for years after the airport closed (Croydons revolving searchlight still in use) this was a reporting point in the early days of radio.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wonderful place,. Croydon, right by my school which accounted for my poor GCE results1

[POBJOY]

In Jeffrey Quills excellent book he recalls a record attempt Croydon to Paris (approx. 200 miles as he states) in Spitfire K9814 during 1938. The aircraft was required for an exhibition in the 'Grand Palais Salon'.
The first attempt was foiled by cloud but the next day he managed the trip in 42+ minutes.
That in itself was not entirely unexpected, but he mentions returning to Croydon in the Imperial Airways schedule HP42 which took 2.5 hrs, (albeit with an excellent lunch) as he says.
I wonder what the journey time now would be from Paris to Croydon despite the huge increase in 'speeds'.

[Tony Mabelis]

'Sam Weller' my old metal work master at school, was an apprentice at Rollason Aircraft and Engines in the early 1940's, he then went on to be a Lancaster flight engineer for the rest of the war.

He told us boys about an amusing incident on the way to work, coming down the Purley way past the airport in a bus, and seeing what appeared to be a new football goal post sticking up behind the perimeter fence.

Once he was inside the airport he saw it was an American P47 that could not stop in time and had ended up on it's nose, against the fence!
Tony

[briani]

Hi, I assume that the fleet of Chipmunks were those of Airways Aero Association I obtained my PPL around that time - Wing Com. Wenman was CFI. Instructors included Budge Burridge, Archie Cole, Ken Syrett. The Chipmunks were lined up on the tarmac and DI'd each morning - wonderful place to fly!.

[chevvron]

In Jeffrey Quills excellent book he recalls a record attempt Croydon to Paris (approx. 200 miles as he states) in Spitfire K9814 during 1938. The aircraft was required for an exhibition in the 'Grand Palais Salon'.
The first attempt was foiled by cloud but the next day he managed the trip in 42+ minutes.
That in itself was not entirely unexpected, but he mentions returning to Croydon in the Imperial Airways schedule HP42 which took 2.5 hrs, (albeit with an excellent lunch) as he says.
I wonder what the journey time now would be from Paris to Croydon despite the huge increase in 'speeds'.
About 20 years ago, Heathrow to CDG took about 30 min in an A320. Trouble is there was also about 20 min taxying at both ends of the journey.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[POBJOY]

Chev Then add on check in and out times and the Hr to London distance.
Prob works about the same.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Hi, I assume that the fleet of Chipmunks were those of Airways Aero Association I obtained my PPL around that time - Wing Com. Wenman was CFI. Instructors included Budge Burridge, Archie Cole, Ken Syrett. The Chipmunks were lined up on the tarmac and DI'd each morning - wonderful place to fly!.

Correct, and I remember Archie Cole !

[WHBM]

About 20 years ago, Heathrow to CDG took about 30 min in an A320. Trouble is there was also about 20 min taxying at both ends of the journey.
In 1939 the Air France coach from their terminal in the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, out to Croydon, was scheduled at ... 30 minutes. And at a time when coaches had a national maximum speed limit of 20 mph.

[POBJOY]

For the machines of the day Croydon was very convenient, as it was close to London and had (for its day) a good road/train access.
For most it meant you were actually travelling in the right direction to start with, and the Airport was ideal for European routes.
It also suited the simple metal monoplane like the Lufthansa J52 due to it having large fixed wheels that coped ok with the grass surface.
UK civil airports were mainly only provided with a natural surface, so it made sense to use machines that were built with that in mind.
Considering Croydon served us in two major conflicts and also pioneered many of the facilities and operations that are now considered normal in civil transport it really could not have done more.