Stansted Swiss engine fire

[daz211]

Aircraft due 0705 engine fire and loss of 3 engines airport fire crews and local fire crews waiting

[daz211]

Flight landed safe no evacuation a/c looked like 146 hard to see in the fog fire crews escorted a/c to stand

[Riccardo]

Birdstrike out of LCY, 1 engine shut down I guess due to vibration, diverted to STN. LCY shut 30mins to clear debris from runway.

No big drama.

[learjet50]

Re Stansted Emergency.

They surely mean No 3 Engine not 3 engines ?

I assume if was Swiss it was a 146 ?

I dont think a 146 could fly on 1 Engine.

Anyhow its on the ground everbody safe thats all that matters



Regards

[AltFlaps]

3 engines out ?!?!!?

The 146 just about flies with 4 engines running ...

Was the bird strike from behind by any chance ?

[weatherdude]

Seems to be

09:10 LX 463 LONDON City Airport 2 annulliert

[Capn Bloggs]

I dont think a 146 could fly on 1 Engine.
It can, as long as it's not going slow when you lose the 3.

[rmac]

Seem to remember some years ago a 32 Sqn had the oil inspection plugs (not sure of technical term sure someone will come up with it) wrongly installed without seals after the oil samples were taken.

Took off from Northolt and then progressively lost the engines one by one till they landed in Stansted on the last one which stopped shortly thereafter.

It was empty though and therefore fairly light, on the other side of the equation I seem to remember it was an IMC day with an instrument approach in IMC required with a deteriorating power state. The crew were given awards for the safe recovery of the aircraft.............and themselves ;)

[golfyankeesierra]

The crew were given awards for the safe recovery of the aircraft.
The crew themselves probably had another reason..., or does it have ejection seats?

[DutchBird-757]

1 engine out on a 146 is no problem. Just an inconvenience. We can even do a CAT IIIB autoland on 3 engines!

It still flies really well on 2 engines.

[Atreyu]

Sounds about right doesn't it??

Atreyu:ok:

[D O Guerrero]

And meanwhile in the real world...
They reported having lost number 4 engine and sustained some damage to number 3 following a birdstrike. They carried out the fire drill on number 4 as passengers had reported seeing fire. No fire damage apparent though - the inference being that it was done as a precaution.
The flight landed safely on 22. Fire crews asked if there was fire and the flight crew responded that there wasn't and happy to taxy.

[EpsilonVaz]

Yep, what D O Guerrero just said.

[GBALU53]

We thought we had problems with our operations department.

Well done to the RJ crew for a safe diversion.

[jspencer]

Saw the incident from my lounge window...I live next to the airport.

Engine fire occurred on take-off (take off to the east) circa 6:45am, heard the bang and looked.

Saw the flames but was extinguished quickly. Immediately noticed that climb angle was allot shallower than usual (I bet the bridge seemed close that time...)

Airplane quickly left field of view.

Surprised not on BBC or ar at least Sky News!

[Evanelpus]

Surprised not on BBC or ar at least Sky News!

Give it time my friend, give it time.

[GarageYears]

Birdstrike out of LCY, 1 engine shut down I guess due to vibration, diverted to STN. LCY shut 30mins to clear debris from runway.

No big drama.

Depends - it was pretty upsetting for the bird....

[TOWTEAMBASE]

ALTFLAPS.........explain "bird trike from behind ?? plenty of damage to the fan blades, wont be going far any time soon

[Wanabee,Gunnabee,Am]

I think he means that the 146 is so slow that the birds probably hit the aircraft rather than the aircraft hitting the birds!!!
LOL:ok:

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Thanks WGA, thought that was it, but didnt know if he was one of those watchin thru the fence haha

[billysmart]

will take a while to repair i guess, shipping an engine from chocco land, is inflite doing the repairs or will a repair team go out?

1 day for the engine change then out on the piss in stortford for the lads if they make it over here.

getting to stansted from lcy or lhr is a pain though

[Graybeard]

PSA, Pacific Southwest Airlines, with a fleet of 24 BAe 146-200, became so adept at changing engines they could do it in 45 minutes. The had #4 aft section explode one night, sending shrapnel into the full cabin, without hitting anybody. Pax were kicking the hot pieces around as the pieces were scorching the carpet.

In about 1996, Aviacsa, out of Merida, Yucatan, Mexico, had #3 explode. Shrapnel from it killed #4, which cut off fuel to #1 & #2. They landed deadstick at night at Campeche, which has no airline service.

This Lycoming engine started life as a tank or marine engine, was upgraded to helicopter service, then converted to the ALF-502 for use on the Canadair Challenger and the BAe.

It has just one accessory pad, so two engines on the 146 have generators, and the other two have hyd pumps. Part of the drawback, I understand, is the shared oil supply between the engine and accessory case. Contamination of one damages the other. It's like having the engine and automatic transmission in your car share a common oil supply. I don't believe that's been done since the Model T Ford ended production in 1927.

There was one of the heli versions for sale on ebay recently, coupled to a hydrostatic transmission and sporting a Ford Model T body. The guy had never driven it, so it was a rolling science project.

GB

[DA50driver]

Does the 146 have de-icing equipment on the trailing edges for the fast moving cold fronts? I used to fly a Cessna slowtation. The US navy at one point ordered 50 of them, then had to cancel the order since the plane was unable to catch the aircraft carrier.

[RJ100]

Heard from Inflight yesterday and the Swiss RJ will require two new engines.

[billysmart]

45 mins engine change... yeah right, in what dream world! :ugh:

not a chance to change it in 45 mins, average time is 2.5- 3 hours with a good team.

so 2 engines needed - bird strike in both or is is a case of another IXU "lightning strike" ? cough cough:}

[BAe146s make me cry]

AltFlaps / Post #5

That has made me laugh! :)

And, 45 mins for a complete ALF502 change would be pushing it.

BAe146??? :{

[chris weston]

Graybeard 23

Not so

The BMC/BL Mini circa 1960 with auto transmission had the same design flaw ...

CW

[Espada III]

And the manual mini shared engine and gearbox oil as well, not just the automatic. Saved space under the bonnet.

[Pinkman]

Two of our staff were on the flight going to Cameroon via Zurich. Reckon it was well handled and ground staff were fairly amazing - nothing too much trouble. They were offered cars home and back next day or the offer of the next flight to Zurich and overnight accommodation. Refreshing change.

P

[Dodo56]

Billysmart, you heard of the M11? LCY-STN 30 minutes, or 20 in a company van!

[old-timer]

Hey, everyone forgot about the APU, that must put out at least half a horsepower through the exhaust (half a horsepower = 1 ponypower ? ;) )

146 = 5 APU's in close formation ;)
there's nothing to replace it though & it's good ol' ship in my book plus it's British :ok::D:D they don't build em' like that anymore

[jackharr]

Quote: "The 146 just about flies with 4 engines running ..."
As an ex-146 driver, I have to agree. Embarrassing climb performance when hot and heavy.

But.....in the rare event of an engine out landing away from main servicing base, at light weight, it could be ferried with three engines. Now of course, with a twin, you can’t ferry with one engine already out of action. So don’t laugh TOO much about the 146. It has its good points.

Jack

[BouncingBlueMeatBall]

Back in the pterodactyl days, making my first flight as non-Rev SLF on a 146 between LHR and EDI I asked the flight crew : "Why the heck does this thing have four engines?' The reply I got was: "Because the wings don't have room for a fifth and sixth one."

Since then I have been very leery of this aircraft.

[daz211]

Tonight 03/11/09 at about 1740 fire crews attending yet another
146 at STN this time sporting BA colours take it yet another LCY diversion.

Reason for diversion/Emergency unknown, any ideas :confused:.

[gusting_45]

Was on a turnaround in STN today as the aircraft was landing. THe crew stated that they had an anomalous indication regarding the position of the nose wheel. Aircraft landed without incident. Listening to crew on the tower frequency, all very calm and collected.

[Tranceaddict]

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/1.jpg

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/2.jpg

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/3.jpg

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/4.jpg

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/5.jpg

http://tranceaddict.fileave.com/6.jpg

[lomapaseo]

Thanx for the photos

Can I assume that they took a 4 lb bird at idle conditions?

[Vick Van Guard]

I think it was several birds as the pictures are of the No 3 and No 4 engine.

As it was just after t/o, I think it is safe to assume they were both a tad above idle.

Fair play to the crew for dealing with a tricky situation.:ok:

[FL370 Officeboy]

A friend of mine has about 5000 hours on the 146. 4500 of them are in the climb :}

[Vick Van Guard]

Given that it had a double engine bird strike, resulting in the loss of one engine completely and presumably less than optimal thrust in the second and still managed to climb out and land safely at STN, I would have thought the climb performance could be described as 'adequate'.

It would be interesting to consider how an E Jet would have coped in a similar situation.

'I'am going for the Thames' :uhoh:

[bigwullie]

"1 engine out on a 146 is no problem. Just an inconvenience. We can even do a CAT IIIB autoland on 3 engines!"

Dutchbird, you sure are a clever dude, you sure it's a "146" you are doing CAT 111B on? Best get the Captain to check the Tech Log next time you want to do a Cat 111!!

[dhc83driver]

quote "Dutchbird, you sure are a clever dude, you sure it's a "146" you are doing CAT 111B on? Best get the Captain to check the Tech Log next time you want to do a Cat 111!!"

i can assure you we have been doing CAT3B AWOPS for the past 6 years. 146 is CAT2. RJ 146 series is CAT3B and that is with one engine out.

The new embraer is only CAT3A due to lack off rollout guidence.

Search is your friend

http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-167487.html

[bigwullie]

being pedantic, thats with an RJ, not a 146.

[BobyPilote]

Just to make things a tad more precise, Swiss operates the RJ100 as CATIIIA, but with a lower RVR minimum, 150m instead of 200m. Well, except in UK where they impose 200m RVR. Don't ask why...

All this means: 50ft DH but autoland and roll out until 60kts where the aircraft has to be steered manually.

So, in reality, the RJ has some kind of hybrid CATIIIA/CATIIIB capability.

As for the climb performance, well... Enough has been said. Why don't we talk about its descent performance??? :) Amazing what you can do with it: -3000 fpm and decelerating. The controllers love us for that one !

By the way, I fly the RJ100 in case you wondered. :ok:

[PEI_3721]

Cat 3A vs 3B, 200m / 150m, just highlights the confusion from using dated terminology, it does little to explain the basis of an operation.
The Avro RJ is equipped with a 3 axis fail passive autoland system. The post certification tests and in-service operations with Crossair (Swiss) confirmed that the approach and landing performance was very good and the system was highly reliable. BAE SYSTEMS proposed to the UK CAA that the aircraft could be certificated for lower minima, below the then 200m limit. The rationale being good performance, high reliability, good flight deck view, and relatively low landing speed; lower take off minima were also proposed.

A further period of evaluation was required which Crossair conducted (3000 documented landings), together with further BAE SYSTEMS validation. The aircraft (equipment) was ‘type’ certificated, which was accepted by the Swiss operational authorities. This in turn, enabled JAR operators to apply for reduced minima although there was no operational regulatory basis for such an approval.
Subsequently both JAR-AWO (CS-AWO) and JAR-OPS (EU-OPS) were amended to allow this operation, which at the time was categorised as ‘Super Fail-Passive’.
IIRC the aircraft mod cost about £10K per aircraft, but only involved changing a page in the AFM. Crossair probably had the mod for free, but paid in kind with the flap 33 takeoff changes.

Engine failures / aircraft handling:
A 146QF departing Rome suffered a multiple bird strike with the loss of power on 2.5 engines, similar landing problem as that at Campeche (#22) which actually had power on two but indications only on one – apart for the loss of hydraulics and pitch trim, a fuel leak, and a small fire in the cabin.
The 146 / RJ were certificated for two engine failure operations based on the three engine ferry case. The all-engine-out scenario was considered during certification and demonstrated in the simulator;- as being feasible to land on an airfield, not necessarily the runway. Of course there has been at least one operator who managed to stop all four engines in-flight; they all relit.

[Teddy Robinson]

Tis a fine machine, not without limitations, not without detractors, but well engineered and safe.
To date no rudder hard-overs, no tail-fins falling off ... shame Airbus killed the RJX before it left the cradle. :8

[FE Hoppy]

E-jet 3B Autoland 2 is in certification with full rollout guidance.

[JW411]

PEI 3721:

It was a BAe146QT and it was departing from Genoa (at night).

[Behind the Curtain]

Daz211, last week:
Tonight 03/11/09 at about 1740 fire crews attending yet another
146 at STN this time sporting BA colours take it yet another LCY diversion.

Reason for diversion/Emergency unknown, any ideas .

I was on it... "the" BA8754 from Madrid. We were told that we had a "technical problem" and that we were diverting to STN instead of LCY. Upon arrival, I think the Captain referred to our landing gear, but that's all I know.

As you'd hope, it was handled so well by the crew that there was scarcely a murmur in the cabin. I'm not qualified to offer commendations, but absolutely sure that it was a good job. Except that, in all the excitement, I left a book on the plane. Anyone got it? :}