Sitting with kids - legal right to be adjacent ?

[IanP100]

Hi,

I was coming back from Istanbul on Sunday when someone with family who had been allocated some middle seats put their kids in the window seats next to them and then refused to budge. Got quite unpleasant when the guy started bullying a young woman who asked to be able to sit in (her allocated) window seat. When the cabin crew told them to move they refused and stated they had a 'legal right' to sit next to their children. They told the same thing to security when they were called on the plane.

Ultimately the CC found the woman another window seat. Then other pax gave up and sat in the familys B row seat. and the family congratulated themselves for standing up for their 'rights' :rolleyes: As a side point, I've seen someone thrown off the plane in Dubai for less defiance to CC, but I guess it was the most pratical solution to avoid missing the slot.

My question is can any CC confirm if this is really the case that the pax has a 'legal right'; to be seated next to their kids ?? I would be surprised, as have often had to have the little dears in front of me on full flights.

[ShyTorque]

I think some parents should be forced to sit in front of their own kids, so they can themselves suffer the constant seat-back kicking that many seem prone to. Instead of other passengers who have a moral, if not legal right to be left in peace.

[HXdave]

ok, to start off with, i do not exactly know what the answer is as i do not work on the airlines, however i understand that it is only a 'reccomendation', not a requirement, but i stand to be corrected.

however what i do find disgusting is the fact that this guy just 'plonked' his child there without asking first. i wonder where the child was originally due to sit, and was this done just because the kid wanted a window seat?
if he was indeed allocated away, then why did they not sit the child in their allocated seat and then sit next to them. or was the child traveling with both parents, and preferred to sit next to the parent that then gave a window seat?

[IanP100]

They were originally sat 21B/22B 21E/22E I think (A321) I assume they got to check in quite late.

[racedo]

Can understand as a parent the fear that if the child is seated elsewhere they would think they are under threat..........however stats show a child is more at risk from own family than anywhere else.

I know once flying in the US from IAD to PHX just after 9/11 I got called and asked if i minded my seat being changed to allocate a family sitting together. I told gate crew it was cool and I would have been most upset if they hadn't changed me as family should be together, got upgraded for saying this which I hadn't been seeking.

I think person was ignorant as most people will try and be accomodating.

Its not a legal right as if you want it then book business / first.

IF you want to have seats allocated together then get there early or with LCs pay for priority.

[Avman]

The child's age is not mentioned. I would say that it is not good policy to seperate a young child from both parents and I would understand the mother's concern (not to mention the child him/herselt too). If they checked in late, they should have been told to bring the problem to the attention of the F/A on entering the a/c. I'm sure that things could have been sorted out in a more pleasant way. Then again, some nationalities prefer to shout rather than listen and reason (I refer to the parents of course).

[lowcostdolly]

OK IanP100 I am CC and also a parent.....views from different perspectives here as I know the challenges here from all sides ;)

Firstly you state you were travelling back from Istanbul......was this on a UK registered carrier governed by CAA regulations or in this case "guidelines"?

The CAA "guidlines" re children sitting next to parents are clearly stated on the CAA website right down to whether it's a narrow/wide bodied jet and how far the little darlings can sit away from them. If the carrier is registered in another country they may well have different rules/guidlines and unfortunately you might well have just had to put up with them....sorry:)

The key word here is "guidlines" in the UK anyway. The CAA issue these to airlines and no airline/CC in their right mind ignores the CAA. Some airlines enforce these rigourously as "regulations" because it suits them for the majority of the time in relation to their pax profile.....eg VS to MCO. My partner and I got £100 worth of duty free to sit seperately so a family could sit together......so did a lot of others!!

Others try and follow the guidlines to the best of their ability and the circumstances on the day.

In my operation the overiding considerations here would be the following:

The oxygen mask configuration on the seat rows on this particular flight.....you do not mention the aircraft type and even on type configurations can vary but safety would always take priority;
Whether there are infants under the age of 2 years where the above needs to be considered,
The ages of the children concerned and the particular carriers policy on this. In the UK most carriers do not allow minors under the age of 12-14 to travel without the supervision of someone 16 years or older. The younger the child the more vulnerable they are.The CAA guidlines take into account a child seperated from their parents in the event of an emergency.....ie who will ensure they don their oxygen mask in a decompression, who will look after them in an evacuation if they are rows away from their parents and even in turbulence who will ensure they fasten their seatbelts and don't get scared. Most airlines will not allow SLF to take responsibility for a minor that is not their own and if the CC are otherwise occupied/told to take their seats in turbulence......

What the CAA don't adress is how does a 3 year old manage his/her food/drink or loo trips safely/without supervision. They need their parents. Most Pax recognise this and will accomodate

I can't answer your question here re "legal right" as I don't know the carrier or country of registration. In the UK I do know there are no legal rights afforded to the pax in this situation. Safety takes priority and the CC enforce that according to their own airlines policy/CAA guidlines and their judgement on the day

This family could also have pre booked their seats on line, got to the gate early etc to ensure a window seat......I think they were abusing the system personally on this occasion.

[IanP100]

Lowcostdolly, thanks for the comprehensive and interesting reply. There's never a simple answer in this case I guess, but as you imply its unlikely that any jurisdiction puts an individuals 'rights' higher than the safe running of the flight, under the control of the crew.

For the record it was a Turkish Airlines flight to Amsterdam, so I guess under Turkish Duristriction. The PAX were Dutch, who are never generally slow to assert their view of their rights and opinions.

[Espada III]

I have been on some low cost airlines where there is no attempt by check-in staff or CC to sit families next to each other or even nearby. Full service airlines seem to have a better idea of what people want.

With Easyjet how do they cope with children under two if there is unallocated seating?

[Moira]

Sounds to me as if they would have made it a lot easier for everyone if they had simply asked in a polite way, instead of just taking an other passenger's seat.

I would be cross if something like this happened to me, whereas I normally don't care about moving to an other seat if that means children can be seated with their parents. Think it's only polite to ask first!

[bondim]

Actually, children under two are the easiest to deal with, as they sit on the parent's lap and do not need a seat of their own. EasyJet boards (or should board anyway) families with children aged 5 or less first. That age used to be higher but was changed because allegedly "large families took advantage of the system".

I hardly ever have a problem putting families together, even when 80% of pax are families If the kids are around ten or older, I don't think anyone has a problem with sitting a few rows apart. Actually, they seem to quiet enjoy sitting away from parents.

Hope this answers a few questions.

B

[racedo]

I have been on some low cost airlines where there is no attempt by check-in staff or CC to sit families next to each other or even nearby.

Both Easyjet and Ryanair offer priority boarding for a fee, so if you really intent on sitting next then pony up with the fee or get there early enough so you are at the top of the non priority queue. This also applies with nn LCs as well.

[Final 3 Greens]

Perhaps it is wiser to suspend judgment without knowing the facts.

For all we know, the family may have pre-reserved seats that were then lost due to a configuration change, e.g. late C class bookings.

I find it difficult to condemn parents for taking steps to protect his kids, as others have said, who would look after them in an emergency?

Being polite is typically British, but not always a great tactic for survival as a couple of press articels argue

Dying of politeness: British don't like to bother the doctor (http://www.thefamilygp.com/british-too-polite-to-tell-doctor-they-have-cancer-symptoms.htm)

Daily Express | Odd News :: British Titanic victims too polite (http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/81086)

As to the Dutch standing up for their rights, historically as a nation they have always been quick to give others rights, too.

[MidmarMile]

I know this is going to sound harsh to CC, who have not created the problem, but this is my solution.

If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.

And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.

I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.

[6chimes]

Having not been there it is difficult to judge any single person who contributed to the situation escalating to the point where security was required. As we now know, the airline in question was Turkish so their rules/guidelines may well be different, which would obviously reflect how the situation was handled.

CAA regulated Cabin crew face this problem on a daily basis and whilst at times it can be torturous and extremely time consuming to rectify, the seating of young children with their adult guardian always gets resolved without the need for security or a stand off. Generally the length of flight determines the level of resistance some passengers offer the cabin crew as to whether or nor they will move seats to accommodate a family. The experience of the crew knowing when to move on to someone else and effectively move to plan 'B' is what generally counts.

Of course making a slot can also determine how wide spread the 'problem' becomes. Usually all efforts to resolve the issue with immediate persons affected or those close by are best. I have at times, had to make a PA to the whole a/c or cabin on wide bodies and explain the situation and request help.

In my mind and certainly if this situation was on a CAA regulated a/c, the calling of security would have been, to a degree, due to a failure of the cabin crew in handling the incident. Of course there are always exceptions to that and sometimes no one can control an incident.

6

[Businesstraveller]

Somewhat at a tangent, but none the less...

Some time ago I was on an Easyjet flight. Unusually I was at the head of the queue, but waited whilst those 'requiring extra time to board' and with kids got on first. When the rest of us then got on board I started to head for the over wing exit row (I'm 6'2") but was a little disappointed to see that the mum with two young boys (5/6ish I guess) who boarded first were heading for the same seats. I wasn't sure that a 5'2" adult with two small children were going to feel the benefit of the exit row as much as I was. Anyway, I needn't have given it a thought as the stewardess (politely) said they couldn't sit at the exit row and so moved them on whilst I pitched up and enjoyed the legroom.

[A2QFI]

They weren't likely to be able to operate the exit door either!

[HXdave]

whilst i stand to be corrected, i beleive that it is CAA LAW that children under 16 cannot sit in emergency exit row seats.

[bealine]

I know this is going to sound harsh to CC, who have not created the problem, but this is my solution.

If the airline does not ensure that any under 12s are sitting with at least 1 parent then the airline should treat them as unaccompanied minors with the CC being fully responsible for their every need (safety, food, drink, toilet, nausea, etc.). If the airline is not prepared to do this then they should ensure that their IT system will reserve family seats together.

And to add another thought....
My contract is with the airlines. If they seat my child next to some strange adult and neither my wife nor I are alongside to protect my child, then the airline better do the protecting for me.

I have travelled extensively on Emirates & SAA (and other airlines within SA) and have never had a problem sitting next to my kids. SAA once upgraded my sister and her 2 under 12 kids to business class (on a flight to the US) because the computer assigned seats had been reassigned by one of the check-in staff.That is harsh to CC!

Speaking for BA, we will always do our best to seat children under 12 next to at least one parent, providing the family turns up with sufficient time for us to be able to do something. Pitching up at check-in 46 mins before departure, with the flight about to close, doesn't exactly give us much scope.

We may not do anything at the check in stage, but if the Flight Monitor looking after the flight in the back office is alerted, he or she will usually have something sorted out by the time boarding starts. Throwing a wobbler at the check in desk or refusing to go through security will achieve nothing - except get the family taken off the flight for failing to present themselves to security in time!

While you're on the subject of "contracts", how is the airline expected to know that they're dealing with a "family" when four people turn up with four different surnames on four different bookings? It happens!

I have to say, a lot of how passengers are treated by airlines is down to attitude. If a passenger presents the "You've got to do something" attitude, it makes staff resentful. Far better to use the "please can you help us" approach!

Some of the "attitude" is a culture thing - "Freshies" from Asia very rarely use "please" or "thank you" and have a very abrupt way of asking for things - "Water! - Get Me Water!" Neither do Americans from the Northern States, whereas Texans go overboard with politeness! Most airline staff who have been around the track for a few years can recognise the difference between culture and plain rudeness - and there ain't no excuse for being rude, ever!

[lowcostdolly]

Bealine well said and you took the words right out of my mouth re attitudes..... :)

I work for Loco where we do not even have allocated seating so check in would not recognise a family whatever the names anyway for seating purposes.

We have a pre boarding policy for families with children under 5 sitting together....get to the gate on time Parents and we will accomodate you :). Can't manage this because you are in duty free/Burger king? Then the other really nice pax will probably help you out. If they don't want to then I will assert my authority as a SCCM and insist they do to comply with CAA "guidlines" in relation to safety because my company feel these are important.

However I will only ensure I have a minor sitting with at least one parent in the "unlikely event" of an emergency and to ensure other parental aspects.....that's because I am a parent so have empathy with these. I don't have to and the CAA do not recognise these either. All I have to ensure is the minor is looked after by an accompanying adult in the event of an emergency...end of. I may seperate you as a family because I have other considerations at this time. The slot time for example and also that the other 150 odd pax who turned up for the seats they wanted/needed.
The amount of families that are last to board on loco is significant and they seem to expect the whole seating to be arranged to accomodate them...:( All we will do as CC is to ensure safety first. After that is is up to the goodwill of the other pax.

It will be different on other carriers I'm sure. Personally I don't see why if you check in in good time for allocated seating you can't sit together but I have no insight into the specific carriers procedures.

I do know that I was late once for a US airways flight......not my fault as the holiday company were responsible for my transfer. It was late because of conditions on the LA freeways. When I eventually pitched up my 8 year old was allocated a seat 30 rows away from me. She couldn't cope with this and she understood this at check in but she wanted her Mum on the flight.

US Airways were fantastic. I was upgraded for my 40 minute flight to Las Vegas to first. I didn't ask as I told them I would take the next available flight so I could be with my Daughter. They saw my daughters reaction at the time and took into account the reasons I was late and that they had available seating.

Personally I think the UK have much to learn from our US counterparts on service. On safety the guidlines/regulations are clear on this subject

[flyin_phil]

we at easyjet sometimes have quite a few problems with families boarding (NCE,GVA and FAO mostly if u get what i mean and all the time from istanbul) when families decide to board last still thinking they will get seats together on a full flight then have the cheek to complain they cant sit together, may i point out most of them had group A boarding!!! some are pleasent if u can find a seat for at least 1 parent and child to sit together. U really cant win with them sometimes but just have to keep ur chin up and deal with it and do mention to them there is the option of speedy boarding or special assistance, sometimes u think well if u live in NCE, maybe u can possibly afford speedy boarding? LOL :E

[bealine]

Personally I think the UK have much to learn from our US counterparts on service. On safety the guidlines/regulations are clear on this subjectNow, lowcostdolly, I agree with 99% of your post, but I cannot agree with that statement!

The USA and Great Britain will forever be different - we can't help it! As loyal British subjects, we love to engage in the pastime of running ourselves down, but really we aren't that bad!

Americans insist that customer service begins by calling the customer by name - WRONG! I cringe when anyone who hasn't been introduced to me calls me by name - they do it every time I go into the John Lewis Department Store (where I am quite well known) or Harrods in Knightsbridge (where I am known to a select few) and it's Mr T......... this and Mr T.......... that - damn near drives me round the bend!

............and if passengers call you by name when you're behind the desk, well 9 times out of 10 it's only because they are about to pop the "any chance of an u****de?" question!

The trouble with America is that customer service only exists for exactly as long as you're spending your dollars. If you don't believe me, go into any shop in the USA and you will be greeted with a huge, plastic, false smile and a "How Are You Guys Doing Today?" without the assistant waiting for an answer. Now ask for something they don't sell - the smile drops as the assistant says "I can't help you with that." Ask if she knows where you can get it, you will hear an abrupt "No, I'm sorry!" in response, while she purposely busies herself with something else, letting you know your time is up!

By and large, our British service style (away from London) is better. Go to a shop in Harrogate or Exeter and ask for something they don't sell - they will go out of their way to direct you to a shop from where you may obtain it! I havbe even had one shopgirl pick up the Yellow Pages and phone a couple of shops for me in Wigan!

No - it's the Middle-East from whence we can take our lessons - smooth efficiency is my wife's pet name for their service style. The Burj-al-Arab hotel springs to mind - not one of the staff there are permitted to use negative words. Try to take a photograph of a prohibited area and one of the staff will usher you gently to the side "Sir. You will get a better photograph this way - that view isn't quite so picturesque!"

When in Oman, our luggage was lost. When we asked the hotel for the airline's phone number, the receptionist said "Did they give you a reference number? Our concierge will keep phoning for you every few hours and we will find you and keep you informed! We just want you to relax and enjoy yourselves!" Sure enough, every few hours, a waiter appeared by the swimming pool with complimentary drinks and a message about our lost luggage! The hotel staff had no thoughts of personal reward, just about the well-being of their guests.

Sorry - I've taken this well off-topic, but seriously I wonder how our friends, the Arabs, would deal with children not seated together! Anyone here from Etihad, Royal Jordanian, Saudi Arabian Airlines (formerly Saudiair), Oman Air or Emirates?

[Abusing_the_sky]

With my airline, we don't have allocated seats. We have the "Priority Boarding" which pax pay for, although what some pax don't understand is that the Priority Boarding only gets you to the a/c first, it doesn't actually give you the right to sit in that particular seat you had your eye on ( i had an elderly couple today, the gentleman with a walking stick, ever so polite and nice who was a bit upset that he couldn't sit in the emergency exit row for extra legroom. They bought Priority Boarding just for that, because he had a bad leg. I felt bad but had to ask them to move to another row, but goes to prove Priority Boarding is not what you expected)
Anyhow, back to the children subject. Day in, day out i see families of 4,5 or more members boarding last on a fully booked flight. Some becoming rude when realizing they won't be able to seat together and demanding seats together. What i usually do is kindly ask fellow pax who maybe are traveling on their own to move to other seats (it's easy to spot them, all you need is to have a look in the cabin) There are always the very nice ones who just get their bags and say "i'll just stand in the galley and wait until you guys sort it out and then i'll go to whatever seat you got" (god i love you people!), but if no one offers (you'll be amazed how many times i heard "we were once a young family and no one helped us back then") i try to explain to the family that for take off and landing i need them to take ANY seat available, but during the cruise they are more than welcome to sit in the blocked off rows (9 out of 10 flights we have what we call rule 1, when we have less than 177 pax on board, rows 3 and 4 are blocked off for take off and landing).
In the summer season it's easy because there are more families going on holiday so they do tend to seat together without any problems. But if we do have a full house then it's tricky to find them seats together if other pax refuse to move (you can't actually make a pax move)
It never happened to me, i seemed to have been lucky. IMO all airlines, legacy carriers or LoCo's should board families first. Not only because it's safer to do so (i know i'd like my little one to be close to me not some stranger in an emergency), but it makes sense having mum and dad keeping an eye on the little angel.
As for the person who suggested that if they don't get seats together, CC should then look after the kids... well it's not only harsh and unfair, but it is sort of impossible (except for when one has a sky nanny on board)
You see, taking the a/c's capacity (in our fleet, anyway) into account, there is 1 CC looking after the demands of 50 pax. The same CC can't possibly look after the children. They can keep an eye on them and check up on them every so often, but it's impossible to focus only on them. That would leave 49 other pax (paying customers just like mum and dad) with no one to look after them (be that service, medical emergency or just a chat with a nervous flier)

My two pence anyway

[MidmarMile]

As for the person who suggested that if they don't get seats together, CC should then look after the kids... well it's not only harsh and unfair,....

That would be me AtS and I did preface what I was saying by saying "I know this is going to sound harsh to CC, who have not created the problem,". I think the airlines (incl locos) need to stand up and be answerable. I'm sure that there booking system could easily identify families (that are on 1 booking!) and pre-assign seats from the back of the plane for them. This could even happen in an unreserved seating situation, where CC place a "reserved" sticker on the applicable number of seats at the back.

I once traveled from Johannesburg to Brussels (Sabena) and had an unaccompanied, very demanding, minor (5 yer old boy) seated next to me. If I hadn't helped the CC would have been run totally off her feet.

But in 2009 do I want my under 12 daughter/son sitting next to a stranger who I know absolutely nothing about? NO!!

[radeng]

MidMarMile

>But in 2009 do I want my under 12 daughter/son sitting next to a stranger who I know absolutely nothing about? NO!!<

Leaving aside the question of whether we are OTT, on this, let me turn the question round. Do I want someone's 12 year old son/daughter of whoim I know absolutely nothing sitting next to me, bearing in mind the number of false accusations made against teachers?

The answer is definitely NO!! Men travelling alone need protection against any possibility of false accusations by children.

[adfly]

im very unlucky with screaming little kids sat in front of me-the last three return legs ive been on there has always been one sat infront of me!!! Legal wise im not sure of the situation as we as yet do not have an idea of the childs age.

[MountainGirl]

On a Emirates flight I was on in Feb, an Indian gentlemen was screaming blue murder at the CC because he was not sitting with his wife and child. To him, the only acceptable solution was for the three of them to be sitting in one block of three together - nothing else (eg. the seat across the aisle) would do. He had apparently been assured that that all three would be sitting in such an arrangement by his travel agent...

[flying lid]

Flew Man to BKK via Abu Dhabi with Etihad a while ago - self, wife & 3 kids.

Etihad is a first class airline with kids. Although we booked online via Expedia, and were given seat numbers upon booking, 3&2 each side of isle.

On board experience was very good. Kids given welcome pack, good meals, and Etihads entertainment system is superb. Transit at Abu Dhabi good - both ways. Outbound we were awaiting boarding, a security guy complete with machine gun approached me, and spoke in perfect english "you have children - please follow me", apprehensivley we did, straight to the front of the queue - first on board.

I enjoyed flying Etihad, I hope they keep these standards up.

Flying lid