Pay pilots better, Hudson River hero urges

[doo]

Pay pilots better, Hudson River hero urges - thestar.com (http://www.thestar.com/living/article/716036--pay-pilots-better-hudson-river-hero-urges)

[GA Button]

Someone buy this man a beer - he does his job properly then uses the resultant publicity to focus media attention on the ****e thats being forced upon us throughout the industry - respect.

[eagleflier]

Tell them Sully, tell them:D
I just hope they listen to the voice of reason

[Teddy Robinson]

Captain Sully has a good point.

To use paraphrased Austrian invective : the fish starts stinking from the head first.

That head is sadly the system that lead part of the western world down the American way, and dragged everyone else with it.

The SW airlines business model that gave us FR, which in turn has driven the "get rich quick" clamour for type ratings through TRTO's affiliated to the low cost operators.

How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ? apparently not as but for the skill and luck of Cpt. Sully the people on board that aircraft would have been part of a commercially acceptable hull loss.
So long as the shareholders are happy who cares and let's hope for the best.

Experienced people are leaving the industry either by choice or redundancy.. replaced by whom ?

Consider the Captain of a certain low cost operator who was scared to tell his employer that his son had died .... for he was in fear of getting fired !!!

That incident is covered elsewhere on PPrune, but the message is clear.

T & C's get driven through the floor, the industry will not maintain the core of individuals who can inspire and nurture the next generation of captains : they will look for other ways to earn similar money without the dubiously attractive lifestyle, and teach PPL's, fly for fun for their aviation fix.

Well said Cpt Sully.

[low n' slow]

Thanks Capt Sully.

/LnS

[411A]

The SW airlines business model that gave us FR, which in turn has driven the "get rich quick" clamour for type ratings through TRTO's affiliated to the low cost operators.

How does this model build experienced operators ? does this business model really care ?

Barking up the wrong tree.
Southwest, before you start throwing stones in their direction...are the highest paid B737 operators in the USA...read, big bucks.
FR?
Don't especially care about them, I ain't Irish...nor European.
IE: swim in your own ocean...we on the western side of the great divide couldn't care less.
And, FR seems to be doing OK...I hear complaints about these folks...from those that either were rejected from their employ...or never applied.

It's called...sour grapes.:{:{:{

[Teddy Robinson]

no .. the massive cultural divide that thankfully divides you from Europe, and the real world .

My world is the AAIB ... rather than conjecture ..

Take that very literally.

[remoak]

The SW airlines business model that gave us FRThe SW airlines business model may well have inspired Ryanair, but they only implemented half of it... they didn't bother to do the bit that ensures a happy, contented workforce who have a stake in the business. It was interesting to watch a documentary a few years ago on Ryanair that explored this link. Ryanair were quick to say that they emulated SW, but the SW senior manager being interviewed for the programme was very reluctant to endorse Ryanair... saying, in a roundabout way, that they considered Ryanair to be a very poor copy of their business model, and not at all interested in engaging their employees.

And criticising FR is not normally about sour grapes, it is more about seeing a once-proud occupation reduced to the status of bus driver, and all the changes that entails. Reasonable money, but you have to sell your soul to get it. There are lots of us who never applied to Ryanair, and never will!

How utterly predictable that an American wouldn't know or care about the rest of the world... the USA is the world, right? At least until China get themselves organised properly, at which point the USA will find themselves in a similar position to the British Empire. Aviation is global these days, it's a lot smarter to be aware of other parts of the world...

[Oxidant]

remoak.. In my humble opinion, spot on the money!:ok:

[fhegner]

Sullenberger had packed his carry-on bag as usual – three shirts, three pairs of socks, three pairs of underwear, books, umbrella and a laptop. He had Green Day and The Killers on his iPod. Green Day and the Killers....good soundtrack for ditchin'.
And the umbrella... so not to get wet
guess the underwear came handy as well:}

[411A]

I would suspect that many of the malcontents here, complaining about flight crew pay (including those that constantly complain about FR, yet don't work there...:rolleyes:) would like to be paid quite a bit more.

I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?

Here are the North American airline pay scales, specifically for the USA.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com

If I were an airline manager I would ask each and every pilot to actually justify the reasons why they think they are worth more....considering the fact that most airline HR departments have a stack of applications six feet high...at least.
There are exceptions, of course.
Older types, for example, for which there are few current and qualified pilots...L1011, for one example.
At our small airline, our L1011 Captains earn as much as a senior Delta 777 Captain on a monthly basis, and it is paid tax free, due to the seasonal type of flying involved.

So, why do YOU think you are worth more in your flying job?
Out and out greed, excepted.:}

[remoak]

I would suspect that many of the malcontents here, complaining about flight crew pay (including those that constantly complain about FR, yet don't work there...:rolleyes:) would like to be paid quite a bit more.

I would then ask...what makes you think that you are worth that extra pay you think you deserve?]

You are showing your lack of understanding of the world outside America (again).

A lot of people complain about FR not because they couldn't get a gig there, but because FR, along with Easyjet and the other LCC's that have since gone to the wall, have laid waste to the T&C's of the majority of airlines in Europe. So where once you joined an airline and were trained, now you have to pay for your type rating; whereas once it was normal to be fed and watered during the day, now many airlines make you pay for it; and so on. You are misunderstanding the basis of the discontent. If the LCC's had invested in their staff in the way that Southwest do, there would likely be little complaint at all. But instead, you have operations where, in the case of Ryanair, the principal will happily express his disdain and disregard of his pilots.

The second thing you seem to misunderstand, is that pilot salaries are determined by market forces, a concept essentially born in the USA. I also fly an increasingly rare jet, and I have found that I have been offered very lucrative contracts because there is a shortage of qualified crew. Why am I worth that salary? Because there isn't anyone else, and if you want me, you have to pay my rate. Of course, if I was flying something common like a 737 or A320, I would have virtually no leverage (and quite likely no job). But my point is that I do not have to justify my salary; the market does that for me. No airline pays more than it thinks it has to, and virtually all airlines in Europe adjust their T&Cs on the basis of supply and demand.

Any pilot who insists on an unrealistic salary that is out of step with his peers, will also be unemployed.

[411A]

The second thing you seem to misunderstand, is that pilot salaries are determined by market forces, a concept essentially born in the USA. I also fly an increasingly rare jet, and I have found that I have been offered very lucrative contracts because there is a shortage of qualified crew. Why am I worth that salary? Because there isn't anyone else, and if you want me, you have to pay my rate.

I would aggre with the last part, but not the first.
I most certainly do not misunderstand market forces, and in fact, it is those very same market forces that determine pilot salaries.
No airline management in their right mind would pay more than they must, and indeed for the low cost carriers both in the USA and UK/Europe, it is the same.
Yes, Southwest invests in their crew, and pays them accordingly and further, that apparently FR does not, will work to their disadvantage.
However FR management has their policies, and they are stuck with them...and any problems that might develop as a result of those policies.

Our small company looks after their valued FD crew members, and that is why there is a very small turnover.
However, with other low cost carriers, the flying public demands lower fares, and airline managements are between a rock and a hard place....lower revenue requires lower salaries.
Southwest is the exception...but they have been flying for a very long time and so have found the right balance.
Market forces are surely at work, and with the number of pilots out of work at the present time, I am quite surprised that salaries are not even lower than at present.
Given time, they will likely go down in the short/medium term.
Longer term...unlikely to recover much.
Brand new pilots today have this scenario to look forward to, and like it or lump it, there is not much they can do about it.
Except, change careers.

[captjns]

Once upon a time, Delta, United, NWA, were highly compensated pilots too with handsome retirement, life and health benefits.

With the help of their ALPA, MECs, and coercion from management, they all agreed to take pay cuts. Their retirement benefits were terminated. Their health benefits options were also reduced. They all agreed to this without any provisions for repayment of reduced salaries, nor restoration of benefits. But that's what happens when you have ALPA on your side.

Big difference with SWA is that they have a strong union and do not let management get away with anything.

Then there is the public's perception of pilot's pay. There has been a great deal of informational picketing at airports in the US about the erosion of pay and benefits. Unfortunately after the KMSP overfly and KATL taxiway incident... say so long to public sympathy.

[remoak]

Funny that, I seem to recall that only a few years ago the pilot unions forced through ridiculous pay rises that those of us on the other side of the pond looked at with incredulity. The airlines warned that the pay rises were not sustainable. The unanimous verdict in Europe was that the pay settlements would bankrupt the airlines... and sure enough... just a few short years later... Ch 11 everywhere and the pilots were forced to eat swingeing cuts that left them worse off than they had been before the pay rises.

Perhaps if they had been sensible in the first place, all that could have been avoided.

Wonderful things, unions... :rolleyes:

[Aussie]

Good job from Sully :ok: Hes done well using his publicity to try drive up our T&Cs but to be honest, i dont think much is going to change, supply and demand will win once again....:eek:

[411A]

... but all other operators are paying to much to thier crews
Not necessarily, read my post again.

Southwest is profitable (except for special accounting circumstances) whereas, many other airlines are not.
In our particular situation, we are a seasonal flyer, so cannot be compared to regular scheduled carriers.

And, I did not say salaries should be reduced.
I specifically asked why some folks think they are worth more.

Haven't noticed many justifications for this...:}

[low n' slow]

I'm worth more because due to my company not realizing the required costs for maintenance, crew planning etc, my regualr day at the job requires a greater flexibility than that stated in my job description.

Instead of just operating the aircraft according to schedule and SOP, we have to solve so many problems that could have been avoided by proper operational and economic planning. I believe the saying goes: "penny wise and pound stupid". Somewhere they need ends to meet and usually this occurs on the line and I am one of their solutions. That's why I should have a higher salary.

Flexibility is nothing that comes for free. It is paid for and as much as the company doesn't give me freebies outside of my contract, I am not about to give them freebies outside of my job description.

This is a very unfortunate attitude for an employer to have amongst the employees, bu that is what happens when they treat us like sh/t.

/LnS

[Bealzebub]

the price of our labour is little different to the price of anybody elses labour. It is a market driven price and that market is just as alive today as it has ever been. What has changed is deregulation. In particular I am referring to the regulatory authorities being pursuaded to create a much simpler rulebook.

When most of us were in the early stages of our careers we either came up through the military, or through a general aviation based series of entry level jobs that eventually resulted in sufficient experience to apply for the turboprop level jobs or jobs with smaller carriers. Eventually within one companies structure, or by moving to another carrier we made our way up through a reasonably structured system that enabaled us to advance higher up the tree, to the level we either are or would eventually reach.

The standards expected by the regulator and the carriers themselves, set the benchmark requirements for each stage of progression. The limitation that put on the supply chain set the market price that could be demanded. Variations from time to time, were then as a result of fluctutions in demand over any given cycle.

The advent of the low cost airlines, with their aircraft orders in the hundreds, should (notwithstanding competition casualities) have brought with it a surge in demand that actually raised the pilots market price. However that was completely at variance with the whole "low cost" concept. So something had to be done. Since the regulator wouldn't allow them to simply ditch one crewmember (as had previously happened with the introduction of the "glass cockpit" generation of jets) a way had to be found to make the whole process of employing one or both pilots much cheaper. The obvious way was to increase the supply, but this was difficult given the experience base required. The answer was to remove the experience base. That is what we have seen in abundance on both sides of the Atlantic, and around the world.

In the last decade the pilot joining in the right seat is no longer the 2000+ hour ex instructor, air taxi, regional airline, pilot. It is no longer the military career changer. It is now somebody with anywhere between 100 and 250 hours who has done some sort of "relevant airline tailored" course, and is incorporating this "job" as part of his ongoing training. These people are clamouring to take up this seat and will pay significant sums of money for the opportunity to sit there.

I asked a regulatory Operation inspector on a route check a few years ago, how the regulator viewed this rapidly growing concept. His honest answer was, that provided there was sufficient experience in the left seat, and the other pilot held the requisite qualifications, the regulator had no particular concerns in this regard.

So the airlines and initially the low cost airlines now a plentiful supply of applicants who no longer needed experience to occupy this seat. Not only that but some airlines had people paying them to sit there. This distortion in the market has resulted in a massive oversupply, that coupled with a global downturn in demand, is now feeding through as a wholesale "slash and burn" for terms & conditions at the entry level. If it hasn't happened at your company yet, it is probably on the way soon.

In the other seat, you have seen increases in the retirement age from age 55-60 to age 65. This has taken significant pressure on the left seat demand by virtue of natural turnover, and again coupled with the recession has hurt the market value of pilots in that seat.

In the US you are now starting see to see governmental concern at pilots experience levels, as a result of a couple of profiled accidents. This is likely to result in the regulator being forced to adopt higher entry level experience requirements for airline First Officers. Inevitably that same regulatory scrutiny will be forced on the no doubt "kicking and screaming" airlines this side of the Atlantic eventually.

Given time (5-10 years) the increased retirement age will also level itself out as a market distortion factor. So I do believe things will improve eventually, however in the short/medium term it is likely to be something of a bloodbath.

[411A]

...other pilots
Don't get your knickers in a twist, answer the question.
IE: why do some pilots think they are 'worth' more (entitled to higher salary)?

[Guttn]

411A, it depends on where you stand. Or better yet, stand your ground. Senior Captains, who at the same time as being in command, also have to act as instructors for non-seasoned, low-timers who have paid their way (talking money, not sweat and tears and sleepless nights etc) to the F/O position DESERVE much more pay than they dare ask for. A lot of these Captains at airlines which hire 250 hour pay-your-way pilots effectively act as single-pilot operators in multipilot aircraft. They work, maybe not double, but at times close to it.

Pilots such as Sully are, IMO, worth 10 times more than pilots who have not lived the experience. An airline Captains job should not be brought back to air taxi/part 135 levels. If you`ve been there, done that and so on, you get 2 things along with your ride...
1. Experinece
2. Integrity

Yes, give this man a beer. He has made a stand on worldwide TV regarding what has, and still is, happening to aviation. He got his 15 minutes and used them well. Twice. And oh yeah... give this crew a raise!:ok:

[411A]

Sully is dreaming, nothing more.
He seems to be off in never-never land....must be something in the (Hudson) water.:rolleyes:

[Brave heart]

If a doctor decides to change the hospital, clinic, for the other (better pay) he is not going to start at the new post as a nurse… Manager changing the Company is still manager not a clerk… In any other profession, trade, the status is preserved and if one changes the job he starts at the same or usually better monetary level, except in aviation… With exception of those carriers at the Far East the pilot (Captain and/or F/O) changing the airline in US, Canada, Europe, Australia…starts at junior F/O pay level (?), regardless of the years of experience, (same) type of the aircraft and professional qualities. No wonder no one leaves and result is… Companies are cutting the benefits knowing that the Captains, senior F/Os will not leave as long as the present package is better than the starting one in any other airline…:bored:

[411A]

411A, it depends on where you stand. Or better yet, stand your ground. Senior Captains, who at the same time as being in command, also have to act as instructors for non-seasoned, low-timers who have paid their way (talking money, not sweat and tears and sleepless nights etc) to the F/O position DESERVE much more pay than they dare ask for. A lot of these Captains at airlines which hire 250 hour pay-your-way pilots effectively act as single-pilot operators in multipilot aircraft. They work, maybe not double, but at times close to it.

Precisely correct.
Senior Captains/Instructors/Check Captains absolutely deserve higher pay...and they get it.
Same for senior line Captains
Regular line Captains as well.
Senior First Officers, too.

That leaves us with the junior FD crew, the new First Officers. Perhaps the most vocal here on PPRuNe.

My suggestion...consider yourselves lucky to have a job at all, never mind the pay...such as it might be.
A simple call to the HR department at your airline will no doubt produce at least half a dozen applicants to take your job.

Yeah, it's a tough 'ole world, out there...like it or lump it.

[Guttn]

You can turn the question around too! 411A, ask yourself; why do some pilots accept being paid less than their equals (airline-airline, regional-regioanl, etc)?
Why are some pilots blinded by the big shiny jets and the glamour of 2 decades ago, buy typeratings as well as hours on type? And why do unions and legislators look in another direction regarding this issue?

[20driver]

This thread is a pprune broken record, plays again and again.

Don't like what 411a has to say, well as he says lump it. Fact is he is right and a lot of people don't care for it. So they play the man, not the ball.

Its all supply and demand a beazlebub has made a very accurate assessment of some of those forces. When the supply dries up, prices will go up. In 10 years from now an experienced captain who has the cojones to say no, I want more is going to make a lot of money. If they are prepared to move and sell their services they will get the cash. If you want to sit at some base and wait your turn for deadman shoes don't expect anyone to wave a fistful of cash at you. They own you and they know it.

Braveheart correctly points out a market distortion unique to pilots, the seniority list. Or the serfdom contract. No other group of professionals (Pilots are not professionals by most definitions of the term. No true professional would accept their position being based on seniority as opposed to merit) or skilled technicians would be so stupid to accept such a system. Look who is making good money these days and see if there is a seniority list in sight? The seniority list is a self inflicted wound that had some relevance in the past but is the managers friend and the pilots ball and chain.

A beazlebub points out what is required to do the job in terms of experience has changed, without a detrimental effect to the public. Travel is safer and cheaper. When the RJ was introduced in North America (to break seniority contracts) all the big heads said, they will fall out of the skies, can't fly jets without XX thousand hours blah blah blah. Did not happen. The Colgan accident, a TP not a jet, was just a tiny blip on a trend and is unlikely to change anything.

Fact is the requirements for the job have changed. The old slog to get few thousand hours in to not needed to get into a jet flight deck. The market dictates what people get paid by what people accept.

20driver

[20driver]

Southwest pilots are the best paid right now not because of a union, but because their employer has consistently made money year after year. Unlike every other passenger airline in the US. Southwest pilots are at the top of the pile, along with FEDEX and UPS pilots because their employers make money and they don't need to cut pay. Union has didly to do with it.

For many years the SW crews made less and were looked down upon by the big boys. One day I picked up an AA pilots rag and boy did they dump on SW and the SW pilots. In the meantime like a bunch of lemmings they marched off the cliff pretending that Skygods did not have to pay attention to minor details like company profits.

20driver

[Bealzebub]

Braveheart correctly points out a market distortion unique to pilots, the seniority list. Or the serfdom contract. No other group of professionals (Pilots are not professionals by most definitions of the term. No true professional would accept their position being based on seniority as opposed to merit) or skilled technicians would be so stupid to accept such a system. Look who is making good money these days and see if there is a seniority list in sight?
what do you mean by merit? Promotions have always been based on achieving a requisite standard. That is measured by an individuals performance at various check points as well as their general attitude and demeanor. Companies with seniority lists are unlikely to be any different with regard to the merit requirements for an upgrade or promotion. The seniority system simply provides a list that is clear to all where they are in the consideration chain. It most certainly doesn't and never has ensured that an otherwise unsuitable candidate would be promoted simply by virtue of their longevity within a company.

Even within a seniority based system there has always been scope for taking individuals who display a particular talent, for training or management appointments.

The seniority based systems does a number of things. Firstly it rewards loyalty. That is not a purely altruistic motive on the part of the employer. It has the beneficial effect of reducing the need for training and establishment costs at those airlines by reducing the number of people who might otherwise simply seek greener pastures. It also gives an individual a clear progression scale that should provide motive and incentive. Few people have their eyes on the bottom of these scales, they are all looking at the top. It shows the rewards that are available for a planned career within that company.

Of course when you simply offload all of those training and establishment costs to the candidate themselves, that loyalty is much less important. Let them do what they want, because the next batch waiting in the wings will cough up the money themselves to meet all of these costs. In that case one size might as well fit all. If they don't like it, they can leave. Without a seniority system it lays the company open to charges of bias and unfairness (of which I don't doubt they care little,) if others who joined later are being promoted for no otherwise obvious reason, because somebody happens to like them, or they didn't accidently park in the wrong parking spot. The point when they should be considered should be transparent to all.

In most companies it a fairly low percentage of those pilots that don't achieve the necessary requirements for command. So this idea of special merit, is nothing more than a simple cost saving excercise by those companies that seek advantage by such practices. Good for them, not for the employee necessarily.

A beazlebub points out what is required to do the job in terms of experience has changed, without a detrimental effect to the public. Travel is safer and cheaper. Well more accurately it has been allowed to change. To be honest I have little doubt that if it were permitted, I could fly with my 14 year old son in the right seat without detrimental effect to the public. The problem comes when eventually even those small odds conspire against you, and the public indignation then goes into overdrive. There is no shortage of experienced pilots, and for airline operations there should only be commensurate levels of experience required. That should certainly include a full ATPL at entry level at the very least.

The Colgan accident, a TP not a jet, was just a tiny blip on a trend and is unlikely to change anything.

Yes just a blip, but it has already awoken that clamour of public indignation. In the USA it is likely to change the ab initio requirements for airline First Officers, to those I have already suggested. That requirement will eventualy cross the Atlantic as well. The airlines will hate it and fight tooth and nail. The 200 hour "wannabes" will cry foul. The pilot factories will be apoplectic with rage. But it will be better for the industry and those it employs in the long run.

[Damianik]

Cant agree more with the last sentence.
I was a cadet for a Major Airline in Europe myself so i had benefits from the 200 hours door open concept, but i see the waves and waves of cabin crew becoming atpl frozen pilots in 8 months time and entering the market as a big problem for all of us "seniors"
D

[411A]

but i see the waves and waves of cabin crew becoming atpl frozen pilots in 8 months time and entering the market as a big problem for all of us "seniors"

Yup, so very true.
Time to put these folks in the deep freeze.

[ZQA297/30]

411A
Just a thought.:)

What is "a fair rate of pay" for an airline pilot, lawyer, professional football player, pop music star, F1 driver, bus driver, airline executive, doctor, engineer, soldier?
What justifies the disparities, is it knowledge, skill, hard physical or mental work, risk factors?
Is it the cost and time for qualification, or just plain old market forces?

If it is market forces, please justify why a crusty old curmudgeon :} flying beat-up old bangers should make more than a garbage truck driver, when there are probably thousands of tired old L-10 drivers who would love to be paid big bucks to fly seasonally?

[411A]

...when there are probably thousands of tired old L-10 drivers who would love to be paid big bucks to fly seasonally?

The problem is, ZQA297/30, there simply is not many tired old L-10 drivers that are still current and qualified, and very few companies will actually pay for requalification....unless they absolutely have to.
And anyway, most of the previous L-10 drivers have either, moved on to another aircraft, permanently retired...or checked out, permanently.
So, that leaves the very few still actively flying the old girl to collect the bennies.

[555orange]

Hi 411.

Although I partly agree with what you say, you are missing a few things in your argument. It's not just pilots that think they are worth more, its generally everyone, and probably including you. However, we have to remember that part of the reason pilot pay has not kept pace with inflation in so many years has nothing to do with "a degredation of required skill" due to technology. The required skill is still there and built over many years. The primary reason is because of the career structure and imposed limitations a pilot must follow, and employers over the last 20 years have taken notice of this as a way to "extract" value from a pilots salary. For example, there is the seniority issue. If a pilot leaves a company, he generally has to start at the bottom of a seniority list again and forgo any time accumulated. So, companies now take advantage of this and keep salaries lower, as they have learned that they can as its unlikely a pilot will want to leave and start over somewhere. Conversely, in other professions, if an employer comes along and says "we're going to cut your salary by 20% because we are in tough times.. so sorry about that"... one can start to shop the market usually not moving very far at all, and move laterally without losing any amount of job status. Secondly, there are other tools used by Airlines as well, such as bonding and others like making pilots pay for the on the job training themselv'es. What I see, all too often is a manager's own arrogance. Many times a pilot will stand up for his value, but a manager would rather let a pilot go and spend the money on retraining a new one which can cost even more. In the end you pay the same, and you end up with more problems. This is an age old battle. This is why, even though its strife with problems, pilot solidarity is the only way to ensure fairness. I would bet this is an area you dispise just because it levels the playing feild for you.

[411A]

This is why, even though its strife with problems, pilot solidarity is the only way to ensure fairness. I would bet this is an area you dispise just because it levels the playing feild for you.

You would be quite wrong, 555orange, simply because I personally would attract the higher salary, due to my TRE/IRE status.
The fact remains...those on the lower end of the seniority spectrum will get the last job offered....except those that have experienced command and check airman status.
These folks ARE in demand...and always will be...the remainder...second fiddle.
Sorry, no matter how you slice the air crew pie, top dogs
get the majority of the benefits...and salary.
IE: it ain't gonna change, anytime soon.:}

[NOTSURE]

In this new-world-order, guided by greed as dominant driving force, a total distortion of values has happened. Us, as professional aviators, for a miraid of reasons, are one of the groups worstly hit.

Take this: I have flown my jet in all kinds of ****ty weather, day and night, for 54 hours in the last 7 days. My best friend is a mid-manager in a communication company, working 9-5, 5 days a week. That's 40 hours a week, in an airconditioned office.

His check is fatter then mine.

AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.

And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.

Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better :ooh:?!?!

[AirRabbit]

I have flown my jet in all kinds of ****ty weather, day and night, for 54 hours in the last 7 days. My best friend is a mid-manager in a communication company, working 9-5, 5 days a week. That's 40 hours a week, in an airconditioned office.
His check is fatter then mine.
AND, when celebrating Christmas with his family, he will get his 13th and 14th salary for the year.
And at that time I will be, most likely, somewhere 39000 ft over the ocean, thinking how many more years I will have to take all the responsibility, training, study, and make an effort to keep myself fit and and........ to be able to repay the loans for my (small) house.
Got a clearer picture why we have to be paid better ?!?!
What 411A has been patiently stating is that it's not strictly an issue of "worth," it's an issue of "supply and demand." Your automobile is only "worth" what someone is willing and able to pay for it. Your house is only "worth" what someone is willing and able to pay for it. Your job is "worth" only what someone is willing and able to pay for it. In the example you cited, you sounded like you would eagerly change places with your friend. I'd recommend you do it. No, I'm not being obtuse ... I'm being realistic. Unless you're in the military, my guess is you can turn in your wings at any time. Toss out the old "airline pilot" c-r-a-p and envelope yourself in the wonderful world of communications. If you're "worth" as much as your friend (i.e., someone is willing and able to pay you to do whatever it is mid-level managers in a communications company do) you can enjoy his lifestyle. Go. Enjoy the 9-5, 5-days a week in the air conditioned office. Relish those 13th and 14th salary checks. Show up. Sign up. Move up. Simple. Right?