NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[Eboy]

On the Wall Street Journal home page as breaking news. No linked story yet . . .

Pilots of a Northwest Airlines flight approaching Minneapolis International Airport Wednesday night temporarily lost radio contact with air-traffic controllers and apparently overshot their destination by about 100 miles.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the incident as a possible case of pilots nodding off at the controls, according to government and industry officials familiar with the matter.

Controllers were able to re-establish contact with the Airbus A320, these people said, and the plane eventually landed safely without injuries. The plane was en route from San Diego to Minneapolis. Details are still emerging and the safety board is expected to release some information later Thursday. But based on preliminary indications, industry and government officials believe the crew may have briefly fallen asleep, flown past the airport, and then circled back to land.

NTSB Asks if Northwest Pilots Nodded Off Before Landing - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125623517851801783.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESecondNews)

[Algy]

Here's the real story. (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/10/deltanorthwest-incident---bust.html)

[Avman]

That's Fleet Number 3274 by the way, and not the reg.

[Machaca]

NTSB Advisory states:

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
October 22, 2009

NTSB INVESTIGATING FLIGHT THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT (http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/091022.html)

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an incident where an Airbus A320 overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP).

On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, N03274, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 147 passengers and unknown number of crew.

At 7:58 pm central daylight time (CDT), the aircraft flew over the destination airport and continued northeast for approximately 150 miles. The MSP center controller reestablished communications with the crew at 8:14 pm and reportedly stated that the crew had become distracted and had overflown MSP, and requested to return to MSP.

According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview with the crew.

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in Washington, DC.

David Lawrence, the Investigator-in-Charge, is leading the team of 3 in investigating the incident.

Parties to the investigation are the FAA and Northwest Airlines.

-30-

NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway
[email protected]
(202) 314-6100

[Airbubba]

The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness.

Here's the track of the merger discussion:

FlightAware > Northwest Airlines Inc. #188 > 21-Oct-2009 > KSAN-KMSP (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP)

Good thing they are in the union, else they would be in big trouble.:)

I try to avoid these discussions in flight myself but some folks seem to want to bait you until you snap back at them. Some fisticuffs have already taken place at venues like Yankees bar in NRT from what I hear.

[Machaca]

That's about 100 NM past KMSP for a total extra of some 300 NM!

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/NWA188-21092009.jpg

[411A]

Some fisticuffs have already taken place at venues like Yankees bar in NRT from what I hear.
Not only there, several other places in NRT as well...must be something in the ....beer.:}
IE: long ago, same/same.:rolleyes:

NB.
Knock down drag out fisticuffs with CX guys at...'The Truck'...a sight to behold.;)

[GRYHZE]

SLF here with one question: Why wasn't the plane intercepted by the military? Payne Stewart's plane failed to respond and jets were scrambled pre 9/11.

[Two's in]

I feel DELTA Airlines are being far to shy about taking credit for the behavior of a DELTA crew - or does that only work with the good news stories...

[411A]

...or does that only work with the good news stories...
Yup, you got it.
Next question?:rolleyes::ugh:

[ONTPax]

So if the two of them were duking it out, the "proof in the pudding" will be the cockpit voice recorder.

Several years ago, an Amtrak crew got in a fight in a locomotive of a moving train ... the issue was one guy was a smoker and the other wasn't. There was no cockpit voice recorder to aid in the investigation however. Railroads are still in the dark ages in many respects. :=

http://kas.cuadra.com/star/images/nmb/02000SGK.pdf

ONTPax

[RobertS975]

This plane failed to respond to a call from Denver Center when it attempted a handoff to Minneapolis. It overflew MSP, its intended destination at FL 370, never making any attempt to descend. The Air Force had been contacted but apparently never scrambled. Over 100 miles after overflying MSP, ATC was finally able to contact them and get the plane turned around to MSP, where it landed over one hour late. All that I have stated above is verbatim from ABC news which featured this story prominently this evening.

This plane was out of contact with ATC for over an hour! Not good! The CVR will record the final 30 minutes if IIRC. So the alleged argument may not be recorded... perhaps any conversation to come up with a cover story may be recorded.

It is hard to figure anything other than sleeping pilots as the cause of this "incident". Between this and the DL flight landing on the taxiway at ATL, it has not been a good couple of days for the DL/NW cockpit brethren.

Again, the concentration should be on what we can collectively learn from this.

[protectthehornet]

last time I checked, the CVR was only to be used if the pilots were dead.

Simply put, there are some really great pilots, good pilots, lots of average pilots and a few stinkers.

argue about things on the ground...fly the plane while you are in the air.

can I say: dumbass?

[DocSullivan]

GRYHZE asked:

SLF here with one question: Why wasn't the plane intercepted by the military? Payne Stewart's plane failed to respond and jets were scrambled pre 9/11.

NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) did go on alert during this incident:

"Fighters from two North American Aerospace Defense Command sites were put on alert yesterday for a Northwest Airlines commercial airliner that was not responding to radio calls from the Federal Aviation Administration. Before the fighters could get airborne, FAA re-established communications with the pilots of the Northwest Airlines commercial airliner and subsequently, the NORAD fighters were ordered to stand down. NORAD does not discuss locations of alerts sites."

NORAD takes action for unresponsive aircraft (http://www.norad.mil/News/2009/102209.html)

[barit1]

FWIW:

Local TV weather map of USA shows a jet stream unusually aligned with a SAN - MSP routing. This might have hurried the trip along so much that the crew were not expecting such an early arrival.

Not that this excuses the overflight, but hey, it's a theory... :ugh:

Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-northwest-airport-overflown,0,6664584.story) has the story too.

[p51guy]

Maybe we should just set an alarm clock 30 minutes out of destination for these troubled times when so many pilots are venting about their management problems. It would also work if you happened to be asleep.

[V2-OMG!]

I heard about this on the six o'clock news; they just had to preface the story with "If you're a nervous flyer, this won't help......"

Yes, there was an incident in the skies between two pilots on one flight. How many other thousands of pilots on thousands of flights delivered thousands of those flyers "nervous" and otherwise safely to their destination yesterday, including the now-suspended pilots.

Funny, the news never mentions anything about that.

[RobertS975]

Honestly, I'd rather hope that they did fall asleep... not defensible, but it will put a spotlight on crew fatigue issues. The story of two pilots arguing on a flight over the US mainland to the point where they missed repeated communications for 1:14 and overflew their destination at FL370 and continued on for another 150 miles... sorry, but I find that far scarier scenario!

[ATPMBA]

How about another black-box?

Between this one and Delta landing on the taxiway it's making the profession look pathetic.

[Feathered]

The Northwest website indicates that flight NWA 188 on Wed 21 October was delayed in to MSP due to "Weather -- Air Traffic Control." This leaves serious concerns about the accuracy of such status statements. Everything gets blamed on Weather and ATC, eh? Nice try, Northwest/Delta. Whenever I see an airline blaming ATC for their service, this is good to remember


. ---- From NWA.com ----

FLIGHT: 188
STATUS: Arrived


Departs: San Diego-Lindbergh Field, CA (SAN)
Arrives: Minneapolis/St. Paul-Int'l, MN (MSP (http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/airports/MSP.shtml))
Departure Date: October 21
Arrival Date: October 21
Scheduled: 2:20PM
Scheduled: 8:01PM
Actual: 2:41PM
Actual: 9:15PM
Gate: 41
Gate: G14
Aircraft: A320 (http://www.nwa.com/travel/trave/seatm/a320200/)
Weather: MSP (http://www.nwa.com/cgi-bin/usweather.cgi?aircode=MSP)

Get status notification for this flight > (https://www.nwa.com/flightNotification/pager?flightNumber=188&cityCode=SAN&travelDate=2009294)
Note: Delayed due to weather-air traffic control.

[Ndicho Moja]

What happened to " Someone minding the store"?

Incredible!

[Neptunus Rex]

Where's the crusty Flight Engineer when you need him?

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/leadcool.gif

[Airbubba]

This is yet another incident where it seems there must be more to the story.

NBC News had the story as the lead on Nightly News and stated that they were lost comm for over an hour and twenty minutes. I could see twenty minutes maybe but over the U.S. I just can't imagine that someone wasn't wondering why it was so quiet for that long.

Were these guys maybe watching a movie on a notebook computer with the sound plugged into the interphone with one of those homemade plugs? I've seen this act while jumpseating, I don't like it. Wonder if the CVR was mysteriously erased after landing? Most of them now record a couple of hours it seems.

I went lost comm in Yangoon's airspace for half an hour a while back. Other aircraft were also unable to contact the controller. Maybe they had a power failure, I don't know. I mused how lucky I was to be over some third world communist dictatorship (not that there's anything wrong with that :)) instead of the U.S. of A. where I might be shot down by now.

Over the U.S. post 9-11, we now monitor guard even domestically. At least we mean to. If you fly late at night over middle America you'll always hear a couple of FedEx freighters getting yelled at on 121.5 for calling ops. I assume there are some radios left on ops freq that should be on guard but I'm sure I've never done that myself.;)

Here's the NBC News link, hope it works after the 15 second commercial, some of these links seem to be user specific:

NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/)

[ironbutt57]

Don't Even Listen To Atc

[Oakape]

What does the Airbus do when it reaches the end of the FMC route? Does it just switch to heading select & altitude hold & give an FMC message?

They must have really been involved in their 'discussion', or perhaps there is more to the story!

[hetfield]

What does the Airbus do when it reaches the end of the FMC route? Does it just switch to heading select & altitude hold & give an FMC message?The A300 kicks off the AP, but on A320, if I remember correct, the autoflight system will switch to present heading, ALT HOLD and the speed will drop to green dot if managed spd selectet. And yes some FMC messages.

[flynerd]

My take on this is that these two puppies went to sleep. Then, on waking, decided that the "distraction due to intensive discussion" would do less harm to their careers than an asleep incident.

If the CVR can be used, and holds more than about an hour or two of data, then the FAA may be able to determine the actual facts.

Flynerd

[Admiral346]

What a disgrace! How can one (two) be so unaware?

And then this:

Before the fighters could get airborne, FAA re-established communications with the pilots of the Northwest Airlines commercial airliner

Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne... I`ll do 2 flights in an airliner, including turnaround in that time...

Shaking my head in disbelief...

Nic

[Airbubba]

Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne...

Yep, the hundreds of U.S. pilots defending Europe would have launched sooner.

See: U.S. Air Forces in Europe - Library (http://www.usafe.af.mil/library/index.asp)

Maybe we should have counted on the Germans to to defend the U.S. Thanks for sending your Airbuses to Texas every week.:}

I agree that Americans defending Europe sure beats the alternative...

[Old glass]

The Cabin Attendant call from the cabin to the flight deck (not COCKpit at NWA) is the loudest in the industry. Quite often, one will have restate a transmisson to ATC when the attendant to flt deck call is activated.

I'm thinking the girls wanted know what was going on and called them, thus blasting them into alertness with Frenchie's idea of call alert.....but the CVR will tell all. ASAP's were being filed before the gear came down.

Once again the Toulouse Tree Trimer makes the news.

[Airbubba]

The Cabin Attendant call from the cabin to the flight deck (not COCKpit at NWA) is the loudest in the industry. Quite often, one will have restate a transmisson to ATC when the attendant to flt deck call is activated.


Likewise, the SELCAL chime in an A320 is pretty loud as well. How could they ignore the messages even if the radios were turned down?

ASAP's probably won't do much good because they are not single source reports of the incident. There was plenty of other coverage it seems.

[Tmbstory]

It is possible that the Company and Pilots need a " Silent Cockpit " above 10,000ft. !

Tmb

[Firestorm]

Looks like we're all going to be having remedial CRM classes which is enough to send anyone to sleep!

[OPENDOOR]

Assuming they loaded minimum fuel for the flight of approx 1300mn plus sufficient to divert to alternate and hold how much would be left on landing at MSP?

[Double Zero]

Though I very much doubt it, is there any possibility of fumes in the cockpit rendering our heroes unconscious ?

Other than that, well,,, even my little boat gives an audio and visual alarm for both waypoint arrival and radio selcall, and if the cabin crew were paying attention, why weren't they rather concerned by that time ?

If the thing had those little seat-back ' you are here ' displays, as an SLF I'd like to think I might have put my hand up, "errr..."

Remember lives would have been saved if someone, CC or SLF, had done so at Kegworth.

I'm surprised ( it seems ) fighters were not at least put up to have a look, try that on an alignment for Washington or Windsor and one might get a very rude awakening !

[Avman]

Though now technically DELTA, I would think that it was a former NORTHWEST crew.

[marchino61]

They only went about 100 nm past their destination.

It is likely they were only silent for 14 minutes, not 1:14....

This would explain why the air force did not have time to scramble.

[ironbutt57]

I distinctly remember the times when NWA purchased Republic, and snobbed their disdainful noses at the "greenbooks", maybe some of their own fertilizer they spread is about to re-visit them from the "real" Delta pilots...

[captjns]

Hmmm. Lets see.... heated discussion about the three S's? Company Policy? I guess their discussion created so much heat in the cockpit that their PNDs went blank.

Not to worry.... these guys will find jobs at McDonalds, or Walmart, provided however, they don't oversleep the day of their interviews:ok:.

Good luck in your next endeavours.

[Doors to Automatic]

Early evening is a strange time for 2 pilots to simultaneously fall asleep unless they had just come off an Eastbound long-haul that morning - in which case they wouldn't be flying again so soon.

[captjns]

in which case they wouldn't be flying again so soon

Sure they will after they close out their lockers. They'll be riding in the back of the, er pardon the pun, bus:}. I'm sure they'll enjoy the great coach service given by their cabin crew, from the Jurassic age, that NWA is famous for:*.

[captjns]

As posted by Admiral346 Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne... I`ll do 2 flights in an airliner, including turnaround in that time...

Shaking my head in disbelief...




You are way off the centerline with your remark. Air Crews in Wisconsin were on hot standby awaiting their orders to launch. Next time, please perform some due diligence before posting such rubbish and get your facts straight.

[I Just Drive]

Only 1 person has mentioned the cabin crew. What were they doing?

The argument has got to be rubbish. Sounds like 2 guys knowing they are in the crud going 'crap, we'll say we were arguing, that'll sound better'.

So assuming they nodded off (and I make no judgement, nearly been there myself a million times), did the rest of the aeroplane not start to wonder why they were an hour late?

[SaturnV]

SELCAL apparently failed to wake them.

The loopy track after overflying MSP was dictated by ATC to be sure the pilots were flying the plane.

Roused only by having other flights contact them on the Denver frequencies.

Source:
Radio Calls Went Unanswered - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125626999885203311.html?mod=ITPWSJ-1)

And the flight was met at the gate by police, and passengers not allowed to disembark until apparently police were satisfied that nothing untoward from a security standpoint had happened. Hhmmmm, I recall that UA 842's diversion into Miami was also met by the police.

[Xeque]

First Air India's in-flight crew punch up - now this. Or were they really asleep? Unbelievable!

[Paul2412]

If the autopilot was programmed for the airport then why did the aircraft continue for 100 miles east? Wouldn't it endlessly circle the airport until it ran out of fuel? I seem to remember the Greek plane crash caused by a pressure problem circled Athens for some time before crashing.

If this is the case, the autopilot must have been disengaged...

[MagnusP]

Folks, those two pilots may well be reading this forum from time to time so I'm not sure automatic condemnation is appropriate. Can we wait for an investigation to run its course, please?

[SLFguy]

"Folks, those two pilots may well be reading this forum from time to time so I'm not sure automatic condemnation is appropriate. Can we wait for an investigation to run its course, please?"


Lol! Methinks they have bigger things to worry about than what is being discussed on some internet board.

[hetfield]

@paul

If the plane reaches its destination in nav mode and nobody takes action it will continue in hdg mode and maintain its altitude. Perhaps it will reduce speed to minimum. That's it. AP will remain engaged on A320.

[BenThere]

If the arrival was programmed into the FMS, and the last arrival segment is a heading, as is often the case, the A320 will fly that heading to infinity. If the last segment ends at a fix, the A320 will continue present heading.

The cabin to flight deck interphone call signal would have awakened Rip Van Winkel, it is that loud.

Domestic operations often don't activate selcall as it is not used. ACARS is the primary company comm method.

Only this week, on a line check no less, we missed a frequency change and received an ACARS message from dispatch to the effect, "ATC wants you on 123.57." This is not uncommon at all, and wasn't even critiqued after the check.

Finally, in the expanse of Minneapolis, Salt Lake, and Denver Centers, through which the flight flew, you can go 20 minutes or more without hearing anything on the radio.

Finally, despite all the reports and speculation, we don't know what happened exactly, and I think it's premature to fix cause and blame with any degree of precision.

[FLCH]

No judgements here till the facts come out, but if the aircraft was out of radio contact for more than an hour wouldn't the message from dispatch to contact Center on XXX.XX have alerted them ?

Also does the Airbus have a "Pilot Response" message like some Boeings ?

[snaproll3480]

Gentlemen, before we throw these two under the bus, let me relay a story of something that happened to me about 3 years ago.

While on a flight from Canada to NY (intentional vagueness), ATC had inadvertantly miscommunicated our flight number from one center to another. Now this wasn't simply a dislexic transcription but an entirely different call sign with an admittedly similar but not easily recognizable flight number. Our phantom callsign was given a frequency change without response and we continued on our way. It was not until I knew it was time to descend that I queried why we had not been given the expected descent. ATC responded by asking who we were and our position. I told them our callsign again and our position and was told to contact another frequency which I recognized as the next one in sequence. After contacting them they also aked who we were and our callsign. After some figuring, they realized that they had the incorrect callsign and had been trying to contact us for some time.

Throughout this episode we never received a selcal, acars message, or any other form of alert as to the mistake because they were probably trying to alert the wrong airline about a lost airplane that didn't exist.

My point is this, there are several possible explantions so let's not jump to any conclusions as the rest of the lay-world is so quick to do.

[hetfield]

Also does the Airbus have a "Pilot Response" message like some Boeings ?


No, it doesn't.

[BenThere]

The B777 has an alerting system that will progressively alert pilots if neither one touches a mike or knob over a period of time. The alert progresses at stages to culminate in flashing lights and loud aural warnings. That's a great idea!

On the A320, the under glareshield panel on either side of the FCU has six or so inches of unused panel at eye level directly above the primary flight display (electronic ADI), between the Master Warning and Caution lights and the Autoland light. This is precious, but unused real estate where I would incorporate the following two additional new lights:

A. A blue, selectable on/off light a pilot could use as a reminder light that he is in the middle of something like fuel balancing or an interrupted checklist.

B. A red light that could be addressed by company or ATC to turn on when attention is being sought, like Selcall. An accompanying loud aural signal would make it even better.

Such modifications, I think, would go a long way in preventing a lot of embarrassing and potentially dangerous incidents such as the one under discussion.

[Che Xindamail]

If the FMS has a missed approach programmed that ends in a hold, the aircraft will join that hold until it runs out of fuel (like the Helios accident). Anything else leads to "heading" mode on autopilot. From that map it looks like no approach was programmed, so the last fix was MSP and heading mode after that. There will be an accompanying "triple click" to alert the pilots about a mode change.

[B777FD]

If they were under vectors the HDG and ALT were set on the MCP. The remainder of the flight plan track and KMSP would have slid from top to bottom on the HSI without them noticing which I find inexplicable, even in the depths of a heated discussion. Unless they were asleep of course. Onthe upside at least they didn't land on a taxiway.

[SaturnV]

According to the AP this morning,
Yet the pilots didn't discover their mistake until a flight attendant in the cabin contacted them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. By that time, the plane was over Eau Claire, Wis

Different from the controllers' version, but its possible that the intercom contact then alerted them to other flights, at the direction of ATC, which were calling them on the Denver frequency.

Cabin crew likely wondering why they were not already on the ground at MSP.

[Northbeach]

Questioning the title, is it the NTSB that is “investigating” or is it the FAA “investigating” or both? I suspect the FAA is conducting an investigation into the ‘incident’.

This next comment is directed to those of us who fly these jets for a living. If you had asked this crew on the crew bus before this happened what their chances were of being involved with an incident like this, they would have scoffed and never believed they would be where they are now. That in and of itself serves as a warning to me. If it can happen to “them” then it could happen to me. If I believe I am somehow exempt I’m fooling myself. You seasoned professionals who point out that this is still under investigation and that the vast majority of what we are reading here is only speculation I salute you! You are spot on.

No, I don't work for Delta/Northwest.

For those few, who hurl abuse, scream for their heads, have already solved the mystery and revel in some crew’s current crisis nothing I say will temper your behavior. Consequently don’t complain that you are not warmly received by some crewmember the next time-there are a lot of ‘nuts’ out there. You are completely within your rights to raise your concerns and expect accountability. It’s your decision on how you choose to go about that. Some ways are constructive; others will get you ignored or worse.

Few people are subjected to the level of scrutiny as commercial pilots are (rightfully so). The proper authorities with training and work experience will investigate everything this crew did and said. And this crew will have competent representation. If discipline is required it will be enforced after the process has run its course.

Stick to the facts, look for safety implications and solve the underlying problems as they are discovered. Screaming for blood and mocking in derision does little to prevent aircraft overlying the destination in the future.

[man_in_poland]

While everyone is baying for the pilots' heads, I'd like to point out some positives - the actions of a modern 'uncommanded' aircraft in our modern airspace.

a) Flight fuelling guidelines meant this plane had plenty of fuel for the 'excursion'
b) Airbus technology meant the aircraft maintained altitude and direction
c) ATC no doubt kept other aircraft clear

Result - no fatalities, no injuries. Clearly some major questions to be answered, but the 'safety envelope' helped recover the situation, and I think this should be acknowledged.

[muduckace]

Folks, those two pilots may well be reading this forum from time to time so I'm not sure automatic condemnation is appropriate. Can we wait for an investigation to run its course, please?


You have got to be kidding me. This has made international news, it is shamefull and deserves every prod or any speculation. Situational awareness lost as a result in a disagreement over company policy is simply the best explanation I SPECULATE those guys could come up with. The only argument up there was probably over what defense they could agree to on their way back.

Also understanding the CVR records only the last 30 minutes of flight, they may have thoghtfully planned their cover up to strech out 30 minutes they spent spooning in the cockpit to plan a return performance.

[Airbubba]

Also understanding the CVR records only the last 30 minutes of flight

The new solid state CVR's record at least two hours as we found out in the BUF crash earlier this year. Not sure whether that was the case with NW188.

[Airbus Girl]

I wonder if they just put the wrong airport in the FMGC?
Otherwise it seems completely bizarre that none of the crew, cabin crew, etc. had any idea that the clock was ticking and they were very late on arrival time. As for fuel, I wonder what they landed with. I suspect they had some extra fuel on board, very lucky for them or the news story could have been somewhat different.
If it was a "heated discussion" that caused them total distraction from even the most basic checks (such as aviate, navigate, communicate) then for sure I hope they get the book thrown at them.
But I suspect there is more to this story......

[ironbutt57]

I suspect you are right AB girl, I suspect they were checking their eyelids for holes.

[waddawurld]

Northbeach

Thank you for a well thought-out response to those who would 'armchair quarterback' the reasoning for this incident. Folks, cool your jets-- the crew probably screwed up, but lets not put them in jail until we hear what actually happened. Sadly, this forum seems to have a lot of 'pros' who have noses well beyond six feet in the air...

[Aphros]

I suppose that we shouldn't laugh about this as the implications are pretty awful, but I heard the BBC report that the pilots were: "..involved in a serious discussion about safety..." Yeah, right.
Oh by the way, was there a cabin crew input....they must have wondered why they hadn't landed.

[L-38]

Well put, man in poland, there are some demonstrated positives here as today's technology has made times like these awfully comfy. Would something like this have been as likely to occur 50 years ago in the more demanding world of say a DC6/7?

[Intruder]

I suspect they had some extra fuel on board, very lucky for them or the news story could have been somewhat different.
Airliners ALWAYS have "some extra fuel on board"! They have reserves, alternate fuel, and sometimes a bit more than that.

IIRC, they landed about 18 minutes late, which would not have burned but half their reserves, since they were in cruise at high altitude. If the autopilot was in LNAV and the arrival and approach had been entered into the FMS, the airplane would have followed that path over the ground, but constrained by altitude. The last Missed Approach heading or hold would be the final path to follow. If the route to alternate had also been entered, that is another possibility for the path after the missed approach, if the discontinuity had been closed.

[Airbus Girl]

Yep, I know the reserves! I did not know it was only 18 minutes longer that they flew. And Airbus A320 doesn't have LNAV.

[Brakes on]

Old Glass,
Once again the Toulouse Tree Trimer makes the news.
I'm impressed by your incredible knowledge of aviation incidents and accidents.

Somehow, I must have missed to see an equivalent comment of yours on a recent taxiway landing.

And, by the way, it's trimmer, but seen your (mental?) age, this is probably excusable)

[SaturnV]

Intruder,
Flightaware has the following for NW188:

Scheduled Dep: 2:35PM PDT
Scheduled Arr: 7:47PM CDT (3 hours 12 minutes)

Seven Day Running Average for this flight
Actual Departure 2:38PM PDT
Actual Arrival 7:50PM CDT

Oct 21 Flight
Actual Departure 3:00PM PDT
Actual Arrival: 8:54PM CDT

Quite sure that ATC would not have had them fly a loopy return if fuel on-board was becoming critical.

[Lon More]

Airbubba wrote Wow, what an airforce... takes more than 80minutes before being able to get airborne...
Yep, the hundreds of U.S. pilots defending Europe would have launched sooner.


No they wouldn't. It isn't the Crew's call. The decision is made by Air Defence. Maybe the staff at NORAD are spending too much time in the Donut Shop

[Plasticvicar]

Question from interested layperson;

Also does the Airbus have a "Pilot Response" message like some Boeings ?

Is this triggered by perceived crew inactivity, to guard against sleping crews?

[RobertS975]

Airliner overshoots airport; controllers feared hijacking - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html)

Controllers asked other NW flights over Minnesota and Wisconsin to reach the NORDO aircraft on the last Denver ARTCC frequency that the pilots had communicated on. Eventually, this worked.

[RobertS975]

marchino61, they flew about 150 miles past MSP, but they were declared NORDO about long before MSP when they did not respond to Denver ARTCC attempt to handoff to MSP. One hour + 14 minutes.

I still think they would have had a better ultimate defense if they actually had fallen asleep... they would have eventually been shown to suffer from sleep apnea, and after suitable treatment been found fit for resumption of flying duties.

But the notion of zipping past your destination at flight level while arguing is too fanciful!

[kenhughes]

The last paragraph is interesting: (Though I fail to see why they need to have a "Photo Op" for this!)


PHOTO AVAILABILITY: FLIGHT RECORDERS FROM NORTHWEST FLIGHT 188 INCIDENT
The flight recorders from Northwest flight 188 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP) will be available for television and still photography this afternoon between 2:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. at National Transportation Safety Board headquarters.

WHEN: Friday, October 23, 2009

WHERE: NTSB Headquarters, 490 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., 6th floor, Washington, D.C.

This will be a photo availability only. No interviews will be conducted.
Camera crews need to report to the guard desk on the 6th floor to be badged. The availability is for news media only and a photo ID will be required to be given to the guard to receive your badge. You will then be escorted to the room where the recorders are available.

The 30 minute solid-state Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) captured a portion of the flight that is being analyzed. No further information on this investigation is expected today by the NTSB.

[DC-ATE]

While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.

[45989]

When did the truth ever get in the way of a good story?

[Airbubba]

The 30 minute solid-state Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) captured a portion of the flight that is being analyzed.

Looks like some of the solid-state CVR's record 30 minutes, some do two hours. Maybe this one only did 30 minutes.

From the preamble of the BUF crash CVR transcript:

Recorder Description
Per Federal regulation, CVRs record a minimum of the last 30 minutes of aircraft operation; this is accomplished by recording over the oldest audio data. When the CVR is deactivated or removed from the airplane, it retains only the most recent 30 minutes or 2 hours of CVR operation, depending on the CVR model. This model CVR, the Honeywell 6022 SSCVR 120, is a solid-state CVR that records 2 hours of digital cockpit audio. The recorded audio data is separated by the Honeywell download software into 2 sets of audio data files: a) a 2-channel recording containing the last 2 hours of recorded events and b) a 4-channel recording containing the last 30 minutes of recorded events. During the 2-hour portion of the recording, one channel contains audio information from the cockpit area microphone (CAM) and the other channel contains a mixture of two audio sources: the captain’s audio panel information and the first officer’s audio panel information. The 30-minute portion of the recording contains 4 channels of audio data; one channel for each flight crew, one channel for the CAM audio information, and a fourth channel available for interphone, public address, or flight deck jumpseat audio information.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/418693.pdf

[muduckace]

Another news source confirming it was only a 30 minute CVR.

Only 30 Minutes of Audio on Flight 188 to MSP? (http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/minnesota/minneapolis_overfly_northwest_airlines_audio_30_minutes_oct_ 23_2009)

[protectthehornet]

giving the pilots the benefit of the doubt:

MAYBE the radio freq change/handoff was blocked by another transmission or something else.

Maybe there was a good tail wind and they were moving right along.

Maybe they were arguing about a newly advertised airline policy...DUE to the MERGER!

Maybe they were tired from working a second job because they had lost 2/3rds of their pension and half of their pay?

So there they are, no radio calls...and not paying attention....aviate, navigate, communicate...and finally they come out of their stupor (hey maybe it was a bit hypoxic up there, or fumes or something) and manage a safe landing.


we all know that modern planes are a bit too automated...we shall see.

on the other side...

I've seen guys read books on how to build houses, or fill out forms for scholorships for their kids. There is sort of a highway hypnosis of the air...you have to concentrate sometimes.

And when you kept a paper chart handy...well, I just think that kept you in the loop better than the moving map.

over

[protectthehornet]

is flying too routine? are we so ''fat dumb and happy'' that we can't concentrate?

back in Wilbur and Orville's day, we had to concentrate just to keep the thing in the air.

the next big improvement in flying must be to have beautiful women come to the cockpit on a regular basis.

oh yeah, before the 9-11 attack, we had that all the time!!!

[Intruder]

And Airbus A320 doesn't have LNAV.

OK...It has an equivalent mode:

For the Heading Knob, Pushing in would be "Managed", the FMGC Will follow the Flight path that's been programmed. Just like LNAV

[BobT]

I am amused by the people on this thread who are making excuses for this crew, or are wanting to 'avoid a rush to judgment'. Allegedly professional pilots with ~150 passengers in back overflew their destination by 100 miles. They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.

[wes_wall]

It is not the dstn overfly of 100 plus minus miles that is so dramatic, but the fact that they flew over 600 miles with no radio comunication. Having a discussion in the cockpit with no scan of instruments. Sure, they were wide awake, attentive, and professional. Now the cry will be, approve nap time for all crews. Unable to work for three or four hours with out taking a nap. Boy, how times have changed. Give them the benefit of doubt - why?

[ManaAdaSystem]

So, what kind of rosters are the NWA pilots on? Anything like the EU OPS Subpart Q with up to 60 hour weekly duty? 13-15 Hr days?
I've had my copilot nod off on a 1/2 hr flight once, and after I took a look at his roster at the time, I was not surprised.
We don't fall asleep at the controls without a reason, and we don't discuss/fight, whatever, way past TOD.

[thcrozier]

Sorry to have to plead ignorance, guys; but what does "SLF" mean?

[Defruiter]

Self Loading Freight - Passengers in other words.

[thcrozier]

Thanks: I see it used more and more here and assumed as much, but had to be sure.

[thcrozier]

I guess I am SLF too. I live in the Los Angeles area. I used to fly myself all over the southwestern US in my B36TC Bonanza on business. About 10 years ago I became aware that I just wasn't putting in the hours to keep myself as current as I needed to be, especially since airspace around here was becoming more and more complicated, and I usually was thinking of a lot more than flying the plane while doing so. So I quit and now let you pro's fly me around.

But I am honestly amazed at how you guys are able to keep yourselves awake on long haul flights. Back in the tube, I pass out almost immediately after takeoff and usually have to be roused by the FA before landing. With technology taking over more and more of the routine duties (even in my Bonanza all I had to do was take off, land, and talk to ATC; the computer pretty much handled the rest), how do you manage to stay alert after you have solved all the world's problems?

Tom

[gravity enemy]

They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.
Lets wait for the results shall we!

As for the CVR, why is it that we live in a world where a five year old can Google his way through the moons surface, yet CVR's only record a few hours max? In this day and age this is simply inexcusable! In some instances more than two hours are required in order to find the beginning of the error chain.

And what is happening to remote data capture development? Historically many innovations have started out in aviation and found use later in everyday life. In the 21'st century it looks as though it's the other way around!

[Machaca]

MSNBC reports:

Pilot on wayward plane: ‘No one was asleep’ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33436497/ns/us_news-life//)

Police say both men in cockpit passed breath tests, apologized after flight
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 8:32 p.m. ET, Fri., Oct . 23, 2009

WASHINGTON - One of the two pilots of a Northwest Airlines jetliner that overflew its destination by 150 miles denied Friday speculation that they were asleep at the controls.

"Nobody was asleep in the cockpit," Richard I. Cole, the first officer on the flight, told KGW-TV at his Salem, Ore., home on Friday.

"Things are being said that didn’t happen, but I cant go into details."

Federal investigators are trying to determine what the crew of Flight 188 was doing at 37,000 feet as the airliner sped 150 miles past their Minneapolis destination and military jets scrambled to chase them.

A report released Friday said the pilots passed breathalyzer tests and were apologetic after Wednesday night's odyssey. They reportedly said they had been having a heated discussion about airline policy. But aviation safety experts and other pilots were frankly skeptical they could have become so consumed with shop talk that they forgot to land an airplane carrying 144 passengers.

The most likely possibility, they said, is that the pilots simply fell asleep somewhere along their route from San Diego.

"It certainly is a plausible explanation," said Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.

Cole denied that he and pilot Timothy B. Cheney were either asleep or arguing to the point of distraction. "There was no arguments at all in the cockpit. That wasn’t even an issue. Absolutely not," he told KGW. He said he couldn't go into details before talking to federal investigators.

Cheney, of Gig Harbor, Wash., did not respond to requests for comment.

The cockpit voice recorder may not tell the full tale. New recorders retain as much as two hours of cockpit conversation and other noise, but the older model aboard Northwest's Flight 188 includes just the last 30 minutes — only the very end of Wednesday night's flight after the pilots realized their error over Wisconsin and were heading back to Minneapolis.

They had flown through the night with no response as air traffic controllers in two states and pilots of other planes over a wide swath of the mid-continent tried to get their attention by radio, data message and cell phone. On the ground, concerned officials alerted National Guard jets to go after the airliner from two locations, though none of the military planes got off the runway.

Too sleepy to fly?
With worries about terrorists still high, even after contact was re-established, air traffic controllers asked the crew to prove who they were by executing turns.

"Controllers have a heightened sense of vigilance when we're not able to talk to an aircraft. That's the reality post-9/11," said Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

A report released by airport police Friday said Cheney and Cole were "cooperative, apologetic and appreciative" and volunteered to take preliminary breath tests that were negative for alcohol use. The report also said the lead flight attendant told police she was unaware of any incident during the flight.

Investigators don't know whether the pilots may have fallen asleep, but National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Keith Holloway said Friday that fatigue and cockpit distraction will be looked into. The plane's flight recorders were brought to the board's Washington headquarters.

The pilots, both temporarily suspended, are to be interviewed by NTSB investigators next week. The airline, acquired last year by Delta Air Lines, is also investigating.

Safety checks ineffective?
Voss, the Flight Safety Foundation president, said a special concern was that the many safety checks built into the aviation system to prevent incidents like this one — or to correct them quickly — apparently were ineffective until the very end.

Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well.

The three flight attendants onboard should have questioned why there were no preparations for landing being made. Brightly lit cockpit displays should have warned the pilots it was time to land. Even the bright city lights of Minneapolis should have clued them in that they'd reached their destination.

"It's probably something you would say never would happen if this hadn't just happened," Voss said.

The pilots were finally alerted to their situation when a flight attendant called on an intercom from the cabin. Two pilots flying in the vicinity were also finally able to raise the Northwest pilots using a Denver traffic control radio frequency instead of the local Minneapolis frequency.

On the ground, police and FBI agents prepared for the worst.

"When the aircraft taxied to the gate I was able to see the two white males in the seats of the flight crew, both were wearing uniforms consistent with Delta flight crew," said a police report, signed by an Officer Starch. "When the aircraft had stopped, the male seated in the pilot seat turned, looked at me and gave me two thumbs up and shook his head indicating all was OK."

Can't raise crew
Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "The Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said

Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said.

Police meet plane
Passenger Lonnie Heidtke said he didn't notice anything unusual before the landing except that the plane was late.

The flight attendants "did say there was a delay and we'd have to orbit or something to that effect before we got back. They really didn't say we overflew Minneapolis. ...

They implied it was just a business-as-usual delay," said Heidtke, a consultant with a supercomputer consulting company based in Bloomington, Minn.

Once on the ground, the plane was met by police and FBI agents. Passengers retrieving their luggage from overhead bins were asked by flight attendants to sit down, Heidtke said. An airport police officer and a couple of other people came on board and stood at the cockpit door, talking to the pilots, he said.

"I did jokingly call my wife and say, 'This is the first time I've seen the police meet the plane. Maybe they're going to arrest the pilots for being so late.' Maybe I was right," Heidtke said.

In January 2008, two pilots for go! airlines fell asleep for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. The plane passed its destination and was heading out over open ocean before controllers raised the pilots. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.

FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro said in general, an unsafe condition created by a pilot could lead to the suspension of the person's pilot license and possibly a civil penalty.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Maybe the 'heated discussion' was about 'managed' vs 'open' descent.:8

[protectthehornet]

let's get serious.

the crew probably missed a handoff...it happens. I" ve heard of it happening and other planes had to call, selcal was tried and the like...it really is too bad that ''center'' can't use all freqs, but that's the budget.

and boys and girls...if you are going to get into a discussion...keep your situational awareness even if the other guy doesn't.

I'll say one more thing. When I first started with my airline, we had to monitor our company GUARD frequency. A vhf freq for our airline. We had to keep the volume up and the speaker selected. Modern ways should not have changed such simple precautions.

[pattern_is_full]

To clarify - the flight did not fly 80 minutes past KMSP. It flew 80 minutes or so without radio contact from the time it was handed off by Denver Center (i.e. over central Nebraska) until 150 miles (or 14 minutes) past KMSP (Eau Claire, Wisconsin or thereabouts).

MSNBC reports tonight that blood tests ruled out alcohol, and repeated the brief front-door interview with one of the pilots as reported above - also that CVR caught only last 30 minutes, and that the looping return was due to ATC, whi wanted to be sure the hands at the controls were fully awake and/or not also holding boxcutters.

Hearings coming up Monday.

[Airbubba]

Flight 188's black boxes may contain evidence to resolve the mystery conclusively, but they may not. One key issue will be the recording capacity of the cockpit voice recorder, which records sound through several cockpit microphones. Some voice-recorder models can only record 30 minutes worth of data; if that is the case with the recorder on Flight 188, then it is possible the recorder will not tell the full story of what the pilots were up to during the 78 minutes they were out of touch with the ground. One theory already being discussed among experts is that perhaps the pilots fell asleep, and, upon awakening, and knowing that the voice recorder only had a 30 minute capacity, decided to fly around for a while so that the recorder would erase evidence of what went on. But more modern recorders can record up to two hours of sound, and if Flight 188 had such a recorder—which is not yet known—then this theory probably is invalid.

Airplane Overflies Its Destination: Will The Tapes Tell the Tale? - Declassified Blog - Newsweek.com (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/archive/2009/10/23/airplane-overflies-its-destination-will-the-tapes-tell-the-tale.aspx)

We'll see...

[blowtorch]

Maybe all this automation has lulled flight crews into some sort of twilight zone. No more manual fuel transfers, no more manual throttle reductions, no more 'kicking' the INS, no more thinking outside the 'magic' box. "We don't have to learn that stuff anymore!" Is the battle cry it seems.
Its like today's new vehicles that do everything for you. Start it and aim it. Don't worry about backing up because there is a TV watching your rear. DVDs, CD players, cell phones, automatic backup capabilities, GPS and so on. Where are the driving skills learned? They are not. Same with today's push button planes? Don't know but what do I know.

[V2-OMG!]

Would something like this have been as likely to occur 50 years ago in the more demanding world of say a DC6/7?

Well, today at the rusty old farts' hangar as I call it, which is where a bunch of retired pilots get together to b.s. and work on airplanes that are older than they are, I asked each one of them if they had ever nodded off in the c/pit. Every one of them said they had. One even said he fell dead asleep and woke up wondering where the hell he was while flying the "North Star" which was a DC-4/6 hybrid, noted for its supercharged and very noisy Merlin engines.

[Avman]

flying the "North Star" which was a DC-4/6 hybrid,

= the Canadair C4 Argonaut as it was known in the UK. Aaah, the sweet sound of Merlins. But I digress......

[mary meagher]

Well, Charles Lindbergh managed to stay awake for over 33 hours by flying low over the ocean and keeping his windows open.....and he had nobody to talk to.

[AnthonyGA]

Actually, I seem to recall from his book that Lindbergh slept periodically (probably even more than he realized), but periodically woke up, and did so often enough to keep on course. When a person is really tired, they can doze off many times for substantial periods of time and never actually be aware of it. It might seem like you've been asleep for a total of only a few seconds, and in fact you might have been asleep for minutes or hours overall.

What I find interesting about this incident is that it's getting a lot of media coverage, whereas the nearly simultaneous problem with the Delta aircraft that landed on an active taxiway is being practically ignored. Given that landing on a taxiway presents a vastly larger risk of an accident with loss of life than just dozing off for a few minutes, I have to wonder exactly what motivates the media to cover one story but not another.

[Dessert Aviator]

Whilest returning to the Gulf from Europe a couple of years ago a company aircraft which was visual on TCAS had an extended silent moment; flying through Sofia, Istanbul, and half way across Anchora FIR in abject silence.
We were asked to try and contact them on 121.5 without joy.
I eventually got the company to send them an ACARS message to get them to pull there finger out.
No follow up by our company flight safety dept, which of course speaks wonders:ok:

[sitigeltfel]

Given that landing on a taxiway presents a vastly larger risk of an accident with loss of life than just dozing off for a few minutesThey were fortunate that the fuel remaining was greater than the number of minutes they were (allegedly) asleep.

[Gegenbeispiel]

Shouldn't they have gone into the hold at the end of the missed approach which ended the active FMS flight plan?

OR should the FMS not have disengaged if they went out of lateral nav. mode because an altitude constraint was violated?

If the FMS disengages, does the A320 AP really go SILENTLY into ALT HOLD and HDG HOLD? That seems wrong.

It could be that the planned approach had an ATC vectors interval, and that this was not subject to altitude constraints. I suppose we should look at specifying alt. or elapsed time constraints in such an FMS approach so this doesn't happen again.

[AEUENG]

Were the cabin crew not checking on them every 20 minutes as per most airline's SOP's? Or is this further cause for an investigation into whether Northwest can operate safely iaw their own SOP/SEP's?

In the light of 9/11 they were lucky not to be shot down. This report should make interesting reading once a full and thorough investigation has been carried out.

[hetfield]

@Gegenbeispiel

If no arrival route in the fms, which some do by purpose, the autoflight sys switches to hadg when the fms flightplan ends (at dest).

The mode chg to HDG commes with an aural warning (klick).

[moist]

Have I missed something earlier?
Is the airline I'm I working for the only one that requires cabin crew to check with the flight deck every 20 minutes on intercom? :ugh:

[GlueBall]

AEUENG: "Were the cabin crew not checking on them every 20 minutes as per most airline's SOP's?"

Every 20 minutes, eh? Are you a cadet pilot, or just talking ****? :eek:

[moist]

GlueBall

This is company SOP, major UK budget airline, proper twin jets in the 150 seat category!
Please check your facts a little better.
I have been flying for 20 years in this business, don't you think you might have a little more to learn, if you think this is ****??? :\:\:\

[donnlass]

Must have had some fuel reserve!! Where's the nearest alternate to Minneapolis?

[BenThere]

These are the only required routine pilot/cabin communications at my airline:

Prepare for departure - Before takeoff
Passing 10,000 feet in climb - chime
Prepare for landing - Top of descent
Passing 10,000 feet in descent - chime

We have no requirement at all for the cabin crew ever to contact the pilots under normal circumstances.

Some of the old INS navigation systems without a full function FMS would go into holding upon reaching the last loaded waypoint, but newer systems go into heading AFAIK.

On the A320, the FMS flight plan almost always has a discontinuity at the end of cruise. Arrival procedures usually terminate with a fix or a heading, followed by a discontinuity between enroute navigation and the approach procedure, the idea being that ATC approach control will provide vectors to the final approach course when the aircraft is in normal proximity to do so. This allows ATC to manage the flow of traffic and provide normal spacing for arrivals.

At the discontinuity point, if no further routing has been entered into the FMS, or the mode of navigation has not been changed by the pilot, the aircraft will fly the heading it was on, while reverting to heading mode from NAV mode with a chirp, and continue to fly that heading. This rarely happens. Normally before reaching that point, ATC will have issued a vector or the pilot will querry for one. If the arrival procedure ends with a heading rather than a point , not uncommon, the aircraft will fly the heading and again, the pilots will querry if further instructions are not issued before flying too long on that heading.

Generally the system works very well.

[moist]

We have no requirement at all for the cabin crew ever to contact the pilots under normal circumstances.

Since the Helios crash, it is inconceivable that flight crew go on unchecked, which is why this SOP.

At least WE can't fall asleep - Guaranteed. :p

[BenThere]

While cabin to flight deck calls are not required, they are also not prohibited. Whenever flight attendants are concerned, they are welcome to call, though they should know the critical phases of flight and call judiciously.

The better ones also call periodically to see if we're hungry or need coffee.

[protectthehornet]

moist...I fly for a very big airline and we don't have a twenty minute call the pilots SOP

[protectthehornet]

Lindy had a very poor night's sleep prior to his famous flight. He did fall asleep while flying and the plane entered a descending spiral/circle...but he woke up in time.

He talked briefly with a fly. He had visions of spirits/ghosts etc. He had his hands full flying a plane without a forward view window, no autopilot and by design, not great stability. He even tried to use spirits of ammonia to keep awake without much good.

There is sort of a twilight zone in flying. Zone out...maybe after a meal. NO chatter on the radio, no bad wx to contend with.

There are many mysteries in flying yet to discover...the human one is the biggest.

[OD100]

".....One theory already being discussed among experts is that perhaps the pilots fell asleep, and, upon awakening, and knowing that the voice recorder only had a 30 minute capacity......"

The pilots wouldn't necessarily know if the ship they were in on that day had an upgraded CVR or not! Good grief!

[SeniorDispatcher]

>>>I have to wonder exactly what motivates the media to cover one story but not another.

Favor? When you get that one figured out, can you give me the winning Lottery numbers for next week? ;)

With respect to the intense media coverage, these two NWA guys have to feel like they each have a Sidewinder locked-on to their butts... Can't be a comfy feeling...

[moist]

moist...I fly for a very big airline and we don't have a twenty minute call the pilots SOP

protectthehornet

Please don't tell me, tell your management, who clearly seem to be quite happy with taking the chance that if you and matey fall asleep, a thing like what just has happened, still won't be occuring to you lot!!! Innit? :{

[Denti]

We used to have the 20 minutes call rule as well for a very very long time. However it vanished when cabin duties made it impossible for the cabin staff to do just that, especially on the many very short sectors we fly.

Nevertheless the cabin crew usually has a pretty good idea on the time they have for their service and check before and after with the cockpit if everything's allright, we're on time and if we need some more coffee or meals. Most of them don't bother to call and just enter the FD which is still allowed over here (dunno if it is possible in the US).

[The Real Slim Shady]

moist

the other guys are MURCAINS.

They are exempt common sense ;)

What we practice in Europe will require a major wake up ( 9/11 was wake up to security) before they do anything like implement our sensible precautions.

They didn't think of it y'see.

[Perwazee]

I am amused by the people on this thread who are making excuses for this crew, or are wanting to 'avoid a rush to judgment'. Allegedly professional pilots with ~150 passengers in back overflew their destination by 100 miles. They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.


Well said!

I'm not amused; I am astounded how everyone defends these [and Delta Taxi-landing pilots] two pilots

Even both pilots are now on ‘record’ saying ‘…they were involved in a heated discussion’, but people on this board are still talking about let the ‘facts’ come out.

Yes, I have been involved in discussions at FL370 over Saskatchewan where there could be a long ‘silence’ but to not get a call for 78 minutes…and not querying, leads me, and the experts, to believe the pilots were indeed asleep! I flew over the western US that day on those altitudes and no there were no ‘freak’ winds that pushed the GS so much which totally surprised these pilots over Eau Claire.

What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.”

That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it. I guess we can say the same about Delta – and others; Continental, etc., – landing on a taxiway and since there was no catastrophe, don’t even bother doing anything.
:=

[Perwazee]

Have I missed something earlier?
Is the airline I'm I working for the only one that requires cabin crew to check with the flight deck every 20 minutes on intercom?

Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea!

[moist]

Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea!

Maybe not yet, but now I can see them all having to do it pretty soonish!
Only the invincible ones won't bring this SOP in. The ones I wouldn't want to pax with!!! :D

[Nemrytter]

Apologies if off-topic, but it seems that there was something vaguely similar (no contact) in Europe today.

Links in Danish:
Københavnerfly udløste stor-alarm - Politiken.dk (http://politiken.dk/udland/article816447.ece)

Basic jist is:
TAP A320 flying Lisbon-Copenhagen flew for approximately 30 minutes whilst unresponsive to/not in contact with the ground. It covered around 400km in this time and was met by a couple of German F4's. They're investigating a possible technical failure, but the crew was apparently not in contact with the cabin during this period either (although of course it's possible that they chose not to inform the pax of what the problem was).

[ScarletHarlot]

From Nation & World | Off course, out of touch: What were Northwest Airlines Flight 188 pilots doing? | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2010127221_flight24.html)

"I can assure you none of us was asleep," Cole told ABC News on Friday night. He declined to comment further but added, "I am not doing very good."

Cole elaborated in an interview Friday night with The Associated Press: "All I'm saying is we were not asleep; we were not having a fight; there was nothing serious going on in the cockpit that would threaten the people in the back at all."

He declined to discuss what exactly happened but did insist "it was not a serious event, from a safety issue."

"I can't go into it, but it was innocuous."

Not asleep, no fight...were they having sex?!?

[windytoo]

I work for a major English airline, and our SOPs call for the cabin crew to make contact or come in to the "office" every 15/20 minutes. Not only is it good for CRM but it also keeps one on one's toes. All my friends who fly for the bigger Uk airlines have a similar policy. I guess it hasn't caught on with our junior colleagues on the other side of the pond yet. Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well.

[BreezyDC]

I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading.

[BenThere]

the other guys are MURCAINS

Slim Shady

We have a non-white president, elected freely and fairly by all the people. Get over it.

Sorry, folks, just trying to confuse a troll.

Seriously, I think every 20 minutes is a bit much. What are the odds, over a 5 hour flight, that the call would cause you to miss a radio call, or interrupt some other operation. On the A320, the call signal is quite intrusive, and even without required check-ins, we get two or three calls from the cabin per flight on average.

This particular story is in the news today, and it has received a lot of attention. But how many times has this happened over millions of flights each year? I think some perspective is called for. Let's learn from it, sure.

And there is a big difference between calling for the facts to come out before rendering judgment, and knee-jerk defense of the pilots.

[moist]

I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading

That's amzing. Jumpseating. You know, I can be the captain one day, then on the following day I am not even allowed to jumpseat in the same cockpit I flew the day before!
The world is mad.

Airbridges in the UK have locks and numbers and card type access. Two hours later in Spain, all bridges are unlocked, come and go as you wish.

Thread creep, I know! :=

[AnthonyGA]

With increasing numbers of pilots apparently dozing off, and a near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea. I thought the circumstances of the Helios Airways flight were very exceptional, but it's starting to look as though similar situations may be close to cropping up fairly frequently.

[gravity enemy]

near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Perhaps in-flight terrorism is as low as it is because of such strong measures. If you weaken the cockpits security, this might be taken as an open invitation to terrorists and more plots might be thought up. Especially since the solution is so simple. As the Europeans have mentioned, cabin crew SOP's should be in place to call the flight deck at 15-20min intervals. Also there should be more systems to warn the crew if no interaction has taken place in a certain period of time.

[V2-OMG!]

I have to wonder what exactly motivates the media to cover one story but not another?

The story which is less likely to cause us to doze off? :E

[Machaca]

Consider the news reports:

They had flown through the night with no response as air traffic controllers in two states and pilots of other planes over a wide swath of the mid-continent tried to get their attention by radio, data message and cell phone.

Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well.

Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "The Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said

Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said.

Two pilots flying in the vicinity were also finally able to raise the Northwest pilots using a Denver traffic control radio frequency instead of the local Minneapolis frequency.


Review snaproll3480's experience (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/393269-ntsb-investigating-possible-nodding-off-northwest-pilots-3.html#post5270619):

While on a flight from Canada to NY (intentional vagueness), ATC had inadvertantly miscommunicated our flight number from one center to another. Now this wasn't simply a dislexic transcription but an entirely different call sign with an admittedly similar but not easily recognizable flight number. Our phantom callsign was given a frequency change without response and we continued on our way. It was not until I knew it was time to descend that I queried why we had not been given the expected descent. ATC responded by asking who we were and our position. I told them our callsign again and our position and was told to contact another frequency which I recognized as the next one in sequence. After contacting them they also aked who we were and our callsign. After some figuring, they realized that they had the incorrect callsign and had been trying to contact us for some time.

Throughout this episode we never received a selcal, acars message, or any other form of alert as to the mistake because they were probably trying to alert the wrong airline about a lost airplane that didn't exist.


Do you vote sleep or frequency?

[DC-ATE]

Hey.....Perwazee.....

What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.”
That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it.

I did NOT say DON'T do anything about it. I merely said the tapes should not be released to the public. That is not their purpose.

[llondel]

As for the CVR, why is it that we live in a world where a five year old can Google his way through the moons surface, yet CVR's only record a few hours max? In this day and age this is simply inexcusable! In some instances more than two hours are required in order to find the beginning of the error chain.

This is simple, it's down to $$$. Certainly older aircraft are likely to have older, more limited CVRs fitted, and unless one fails, there's no incentive to pay money to fit a newer, better one unless the rules change that mandate it. I don't know the cost difference between a 30-min and a 2hr CVR, or if it's just that newer technology means that they upgraded them because it was easier. It's a bit like hard disks, you can't get smaller ones any more because people don't make them, same with flash memory used in CVRs. At some point the smaller stuff gets more expensive because less are being made. There was talk after the AF accident over the Atlantic that having a decent satellite uplink to transmit such data would be good, but again, it's $$$ for something that hopefully would rarely be needed.

I wonder at what point they pulled the CB on the CVR as well, delaying that until shutdown at the gate has erased important information in the past, not through any deliberate act, just because it's not exactly a priority item if you're trying to get a damaged aircraft safely down.

[Wonderkid]

...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! ;) (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!)

[protectthehornet]

we have a big fricking bar on the door...one pilot has to leave his seat to get up and open the door to let in a f/a.

so...instead of this...why not just asign one FA to the flight deck for the whole flight? She should be really good looking and smell nice. Her job is to make sure the boys look at the instruments and make good landings.

She can give out snacks along the way for good performance.

The pilots can bark once in awhile.


Seriously. I've resorted (with the other pilot) to singing the FLINTSTONES theme song to keep alert. And my airline is famous for short haul. Heck, I've sung the whole ABC network early 1960's lineup on the shuttle from KBOS to KLGA.

And I've also flown from KLGA to KBOS in 24 minutes...how would that 20 minute rule work in that situation?

And knock off the idea of homosexual sex in the cockpit. I take it at face value...the guys started talking about something and it was a heck of a conversation. and as I mentioned in another thread, if it is hard to hear in the cockpit or hearing problems (and we have all lost hearing), you turn towards the other pilot to sort of read lips as well as hear...and then you don't look at the instrument panel. understand, comprende, ?????

and everyone out there has screwed up or will screw up...so be careful.

[gravity enemy]

There was talk after the AF accident over the Atlantic that having a decent satellite uplink to transmit such data would be good, but again, it's $$$ for something that hopefully would rarely be needed.

A deep sea diving mission to find CVR's is also an expensive mission. Surely a decent remote data capture system can't be that expensive! And it has so many advantages. No more CVR manufacture, which is also expensive. Less weight etc...

[bratschewurst]

They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.

On the other hand, they're probably the least likely pilots on the planet to do such a dumb thing ever again if they do keep their jobs.

[captjns]

Well... before they even think about keeping their jobs, the have to need to have justify before the FAA why they are safe and dedicated airmen and why they should not have their tickets lifted.

If and only if the FAA says OK... then they are also going to have to do the same song and dance routine before the powers that bee at Delta.

If they are violated, and lose their jobs, then off to Wal Mart:mad:.

If the FAA allows them to keep their tickets, and are fired by Delta, then their records will be duly notated for reason for dismissal, and made available to future prospective employers under Pilot Record Information Act.

ALPA is going to have to pull a rabbit out of their hat in order to successfully defend these two chaps:suspect::ugh:.

[Ballymoss]

This diatribe is making me tired..........tired enough to fall asleep:=

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[mary meagher]

Protecthehornet mentions that there is a substantial bar on the door, and that even to let a flight attendant in with coffee or other stimulants, one guy has to get up to let her in.

The rest of the time are you just stuck in the office? I know on very long flights with extra crew there are bunks available for rest. Is it no longer permitted to have one of the flight crew take a walk and greet the pax? Walking around helps us to stay awake in the back and keep the circulation going.

And of course there is another resource, those paying for the ride have an interest in safe arrival. Do UAL still let us listen in to channel 9? I take great interest in all RT, and keep an eye on that cute little moving map on the back of the seat. If I noticed a peculiar deviation from track, if the chaps up front didn't explain nicely, would certainly ask flight attendants if there is a problem.

Passengers are an underutilised resource, many of us also have flying experience. Even a back seat passenger can sound the alarm if the driver dozes off.

[muduckace]

It would be simple to generate a parameter based off the DADC's and the ships clock to call out "COCK-A-DOODLE-DOO" every 15 minutes through the EGPWS computer.

[Tan]

Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement..

[Ditchdigger]

Why is everyone rushing to judgement when all we know is the aircraft over flew its last waypoint but landed safely? Perhaps the arrival page wasn’t programmed or activated but the investigation will tell us so please wait before passing judgement..


Forgive me if this has been mentioned earlier. I've read the whole thread, over the couple of days it's been running, and I don't recall anyone having made this point...

From an ATC perspective (specifically the one I'm married to), these guys were on an IFR flight plan, and whatever the underlying reason, flew 150 miles in controlled airspace without having a clearance to do so. Even if they'd lost all comms, they'd have been expected to follow the established procedure to approach and land at Minneapolis, as the flight plan called for. That much is fact, and I haven't heard anyone say otherwise...

[p51guy]

They would have communicated with ATC by several methods if they knew they had lost com. I have done it a couple of times in an airliner when they forgot to hand us off and we flew out of radio range.

[mermoz92]

Where is Airport....and where are runways for SkyTeam ?

YouTube - "Airplane Movie" - Autopilot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr8WXP9PItk)

:)

[Tan]

Ditchdigger

Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications.

As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports.

[DIA74]

I understand a flight plan is loaded in the box prior to dep, with waypoints right up to the expected arrival runway When autopilot is selected it follows the flight level and way points to dest. What happens when the a/c reaches the descent point if the pilots do not take over? The NWA a/c apparently carried on flying in a straight line beyond MSP. I am surprised there would not have been an audio alert at the descent point or thereabouts - an electronic "HELP! Do something!" If no one touched the controls would an aircraft continue in a straight line until it ran out of fuel? Luckily they had enough for this "alternate" field!

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger

Ah most airlines SOP’s do not program or activate the approach page until prior to the TOD. Unless the approach page is activated the TOD cue will not occur, the aircraft will revert to heading/altitude hold mode at the last entered waypoint with the accompanying audio/mode changes indications.

As I said previously no one has any idea what actually happened and won’t know until the investigation is completed so why rush to judgement on news media reports.


I think you may be missing my point. Regardless of airline SOPs, they had an ATC clearance for a route to Minneapolis. There does not seem to be any disputing the fact that they went 150 miles further, through several sectors of airspace, without getting a clearance to do that. Unless it was an emergency (which possibility hasn't been mentioned at all), they weren't allowed to do that.

I don't think my post can be characterized as a rush to judgement, but this is an internet discussion forum, and speculation is part and parcel of what goes on here. If you find it more acceptable, I'm speculating that the FAA is likely to have a problem with that lack of clearance.

[dweeks]

"When I first started with my airline, we had to monitor our company GUARD frequency. A vhf freq for our airline. We had to keep the volume up and the speaker selected. Modern ways should not have changed such simple precautions"

Well, in '86 when I started at my carrier, we had no ACARS or SELCAL. For "operational control" we (meaning the F/O) had to monitor company frequency ALL the time.

Now imagine how many missed calls you get going into LAX, when the F/O is running the ATC radios and listening to a company frequency that is the same for LAX, SNA, ONT, BUR, SAN, and LAS, with everyone calling in out/off/on/in/fuel numbers/ETAs. Remember, no ACARS, and we had to call everything.

(No I don't work for Southwest...)

You'd be doing well if you only missed a couple of ATC calls per leg in the LAX basin.

As soon as I upgraded, I told my F/Os to NOT monitor company frequency until out of the LAX area. That cut the number of missed radio calls by a huge margin.

[Tan]

Ditchdigger

Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment. Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums.

[greenslopes]

These guys were asleep, if not then this is such a serious breach of airmanship it deems them completely unprofessional. A sad day when a two crew operation fails to land at the intended aerodrome. If they were asleep then perhaps their fatigue management system was ineffectual.
But to say they were in a heated discussion.....Yeh right. A complete lack of credibility, at best a complete breakdown of SOP's and CRM, let alone Threat and Error Management.

Either way when the truth is revealed then hopefully this never occurs again.

[p51guy]

Unless you know at departure what your likely landing approach is the approach normally isn't loaded into the computer. On arrival you get a pretty good idea of your arrival so can program it. That gives you your VNAV data and backs up your descent. Since these pilots were out of the loop over 30 minutes out no approach was inserted.. Therefore instead of doing the Athens profile and entering holding they went to heading hold. The hearing will be interesting. Hope the best for these guys but they have a lot of explaining to do.

[rottenray]

DC-ATE Writes:

I did NOT say DON'T do anything about it. I merely said the tapes should not be released to the public. That is not their purpose.DC, I've enjoyed reading many of your posts here as they reflect your experience and skill and philosophy, but I only partially agree. No, John Q. Public doesn't need to hear every conversation on the flight deck. But this was a major SNAFU no matter how one looks at it, and consumers are entitled to judge for themselves how it came to be.



Wonderkid writes:

Re sex, was thinking the same thing...
...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!)
Kid, the pink is mine. That's a rather homophobic thing to say, and - without putting words in your mouth - I find it a little intriguing that you seem to think that being caught with pants down on the flight deck would be less humiliating were it straight sex. Helluva first post!


windytoo writes:

Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well.That's sort of stingish, but I think you made your point well. Based upon my last few flights (as SLF) I get the feeling that FA are less than interested in the crew up front, for whatever reason. With all the pay cuts, FA lately has a very "feeling screwed" attitude for the most part. Not that they aren't entitled - they have been, along with everyone else.

The only folks who seem to be prospering at this point are those who buy tickets based on price alone.

They're generally folks who think "flap" is something a wing does, instead of part of it.:ugh:

...

[Finn47]

Would it be possible to pull the CVR circuit breaker for a few minutes - so they could agree on a cover-up story between them, for instance - and then push the c/b back in, without anyone noticing?

[captjns]

Very good point... DC-ATE The voice content on the tape is not at issue. It's what lead to a complete breakdown in SOPs and total loss of situational awareness.

[Finn47]

... it says here on page 2 that the airline is offering each passenger a 500 $ voucher for future travel with the airline, so obviously they are embarrassed by the episode...

Off-target pilots' licenses are in peril | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/local/65913402.html?elr=KArksD:aDyaEP:kD:aUq9_b9b_jEkP:QUiD3aPc:_Y yc:aU7DYaGEP7vDEh7P:DiUs)

[Ditchdigger]

Ditchdigger

Until an investigation determines exactly what happened the FAA isn’t even considering the violation of airspace. It shouldn’t happen, no one wants it to happen, but it isn’t a big deal in a modern radar environment...

From the article linked above:

A spokeswoman for the FAA, Laura Brown, said her agency had sent "letters of investigation" to both pilots, Capt. Timothy B. Cheney and first officer Richard I. Cole, notifying them that the incident could lead to the emergency revocation or suspensions of their licenses within days.

Airline pilots won’t and don’t speculate on incidents or accidents until all the facts are known unlike all the nonsense you read on these forums.

I'm not an airline pilot. I'm a professional ditchdigger. Really.


Aviation analysts, puzzled by the unusually long gap of silence, wondered whether the pilots could have been sleeping.


Ditchdigger by day, that is. At night, I'm an "aviation analyst", although that's just a hobby... :)

[Lazerdog]

Since all the aspects of this flight seem inconceivable, I wonder if it would be worth checking out the flight deck pressurization system on that particular aircraft. Hypoxia would certainly explain the behaviors noted, including the attempted explanation by the crew.

[Brave heart]

B777 has the "Pilot Respond" EICAS message popping out after 20 minutes of inactivity; at 22nd minute activates the Master Caution and at 23rd minute activates the Master Warning (same aural warning like for the Auto Pilot disengagement)... Quite effective way to prevent prolonged nodding...

I like it...

[Airbubba]

B777 has the "Pilot Respond" EICAS message popping out after 20 minutes of inactivity; at 22nd minute activates the Master Caution and at 23rd minute activates the Master Warning (same aural warning like for the Auto Pilot disengagement)... Quite effective way to prevent prolonged nodding...

Actually, I think it says 'Pilot Response'.

Other glass Boeings have it as an option, it works as advertised (or, so I'm told:)).

[Springer1]

I find it interesting that the media is describing this as a Northwest event when in fact NWA is now Delta albeit they are a month or so away from a SOC (Single Operating Certificate).

[Airbubba]

They were still using the Northwest callsign in Asia a few days ago.

I think they refer to themselves as Delta-North in merger discussions.

[RESA]

Ditchdigger

Spot-On !

150 miles of “overshoot” into IFR controlled space with no clearances or communications . . . immediately adjacent (and more or less centred on) to a major airport. The area of, typically, the densest traffic patterns.

There must have been a lot of very busy controllers flipping other (coming “the other way”) folks to a new flight level and track. And, at the same time co-ordinating with your home-land-security I suspect? Thankfully, they were evidently high enough to look like an “over-flight” . . . until they came out the “other-side” of course.

As Lazerdog suggests . . . Hypoxia sounds like their best defence . . . good luck lads!

Should they even build “commercial transport aircraft” with pullout beds on the flight deck!?
They usually only get used for the “Mile(s)-High-Club” anyway. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?????

I have professionally (meaning my “job”) watched this “stuff” from the sidelines (ground-side) for over 35-years. Some eventually screw up and get caught . . . most don’t !!!!

[GreenEyedTraveler]

Allow me to state my opinion here on what may have happened. Please hear me out. This "theory" (and that's all it is, so please, moderators of this "rumor" forum, do not erase my post, I have something valuable to say here) has not been proposed here in this thread. But it is a far more feasible theory than the "sexual tryst" one that has been floated (and not deleted).

We are a society nowadays where 90% of the population and the workforce are virtual mindless, robotic slaves to one handheld electronic device or another (iphones, blackberries, etc.). Nowhere is this more evident than in the Transportation industry (Planes, Trains, Automobiles). No sooner than does an airplane pull into the gate than the hundred-fifty plus sheep on-board reach for their cell-phones as if their very lives depended upon it. It's instinctual anymore - it's not even a product of actual thought. Out in California earlier this year it was documented that the train conductor was "texting" on his phone prior to the accident. On the roads in this country, driver after driver cannot seem to last 15 minutes without "texting" or talking on their cell-phones, non-stop. "Distracted driving" is now the number one cause of accidents on the road in the U.S. Moreso than weather, or than drugs/alcohol. People display an irrational, compulsive "need" to be constantly texting, phoning, or checking the internet, when they should be giving full attention to their driving responsibilities.

Our society is an "Attention-Deficit-Disordered" one, where people cannot simply FOCUS on the task-at-hand. They cannot BE or LIVE in the PRESENT anymore. As a result, I witness, on a near-DAILY basis, automobile drivers who are so consumed with the "conversation" (or texting) they are having on their e-device, that they narrowly miss plowing me or someone else down with their Yuppie Urban Assault Vehicle. I - as a full-time pedestrian - have come within INCHES of being seriously injured or killed, on so many occasions that I am pretty much counting on it happening to me in my lifetime. Many times, these same individuals are carrying small children in the front/back seat. While they're texting/yapping/internet-surfing...

My "theory" on this incident is that pilots are now exhibiting the same "distracted flying" characteristics. Passengers in the U.S. may not be allowed to use their "personal mobile electronic devices" while in-flight, but European passengers can now. And it's possible that U.S. pilots do, despite the passenger restriction. One or both of these pilots may have been so absorbed in their particular "electronic device", that they paid no attention whatsoever to overshooting the MSP destination. Based upon what I have observed EN-MASSE in car-drivers ... based on the news accounts about mass-transit conductors ... it would not surprise me in the least to find out that airline pilots are now spending a dangerous amount of their cockpit time (and IMO, any time more than 0 seconds qualifies as such) absorbed in "texting" or any other such dumbing-down-device activity. If the rest of the general population exhibits such a mass-addiction to these devices - and as has already been exhibited by other elements of the Transportation industry - then it stands to reason that this infestation of mindless e-device compulsion has now permeated the cockpits of commercial airplanes.

It's fine and dandy for currently active commercial pilots to respond by stating that they do not use their "mobile electronic devices" while in-flight, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one or both of these two pilots in question did not.

Just my opinion. And the general public, the flying public, the industry's employees, and anyone else reading this post, would be wise to consider it. Because it is entirely feasible, nowadays. Sadly.

[Brave heart]

Airbubba you're right, I've misspelled the message...

Thanks...:ok:

[GlueBall]

moist: "GlueBall: This is company SOP, major UK budget airline, proper twin jets in the 150 seat category! Please check your facts a little better. I have been flying for 20 years in this business, don't you think you might have a little more to learn, if you think this is ****"

Oh, really...? Well, I've been flying 20 years too and I'm in a proper quad jet in the 400 seat category engaged in 12+ hrs sectors . . . and if the cabin crew were to call the cockpit every 20 minutes, I'd go downstairs and slap the b!tch. :ooh:

[Fatfish]

88 minutes no coms and off airway with no fighters scambled. After 9/11 this shows total slackiness. :mad:

[The Real Slim Shady]

I say again: they are MURCAINS.

Do as I say, not as I do.

The astonishing arrogance they manage to sustain in the face of commonsense is manifested in Glueball's post.

[JRBarrett]

Would it be possible to pull the CVR circuit breaker for a few minutes - so they could agree on a cover-up story between them, for instance - and then push the c/b back in, without anyone noticing?

No, the power interruption and restoration would be recorded.

[skyboy1919]

I work for a major Australian Airline and we also have a requirement as C/C to check on the flight crew every 20 minutes when out of our sterile flight deck period. In fact often, if the twenty minutes passes the pilots will call the cabin crew. I work on our ultra long haul services and even then this rule applies ALWAYS. It is also required that any service items be removed before landing. I am amazed that for over an hour towards the end of a flight there was no reason for communication between flight deck and cabin. I am also surprised not one of the cabin crew didn't just wanted to see why the flight was an hour late.

Bottom line, if this was caused by human error then there is a MAJOR COMPLACENCY ISSUE that has no place in the air. SCARY STUFF!
:=

[lowcostdolly]

Hi all I've just been reading this thread as my friend has just told me about this incident and I just knew there would be a thread on PPrune :ok:

Glueball......no sh!t I'm afraid. Some of the more enlightened airlines do have SOP's which require the CC to contact the pilots every 20 minutes (ish) or as soon as practible depending on the wording of their Part E manual. I work for one of them.....a major budget carrier within the UK.

In addition I am also required to do this by interphone initially so as to minimise the time the flight deck door has to be opened. When I do have to open the door (drinks/meals etc) I have to have a "guard" present to stand between me and the cabin. A real pain in the neck sometimes but necessary to try and reduce potential risk whilst the door is open. You know the stuff recognised post 9/11??

As far as I'm aware I'm supposed to contact the flight deck this frequently for the following reasons

To check you Guys are still alive/not incapacitated
To maintain effective communication and CRM
To ensure both pilots "welfare" on long sectors.....I do visit on these occasions as instructed by our manual.
To see if you need anything at all.....drinks, meals, loo breaks or even just a chat....normal human teamwork things. You guys are shut in a box barricaded by a door. Need I say more?If this was not happening on this flight then questions need to be asked of the effectiveness of the SOP's/CRM/Communications within the team on this flight.....maybe?

My friend has left my carrier and now works for another UK carrier. Their SOP is that you visit the F/D every 30 mins if you have time and there is no requirement for a guard. If you don't have time (pax service commitments) nobody seems to care and the F/D are contacted when the CC feel they do have time......could be another hour.

Would be really interesting to know which procedure you guys feel is the most workable particularly as one of you (can't remember who) said they would "slap" somebody who contacted them every 20 mins by interphone......why???

Yes I'm aware of the critical stages of flight. I'm also aware of your workload in the descent. This is why I ring you at the top of descent and then don't bother you again other than to hand the "cabin secure".

So what happened on this flight then and why do some of you think CC comms are not an important SOP routinely anyway???

[md80fanatic]

A classless interview IMO, but might be helpful.

Co-pilot: No sleeping or arguing in cockpit - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/24/airliner.fly.by/index.html)

[DC-ATE]

rottenray -

Thank you for your kind words, but.....

All the public needs to know is, if required after all the facts are presented, the crew is properly diciplined. The actual content of the CVR should remain in the hands of the investigators ONLY. But, in this day and age, I'm sure the content will come out anyway.

[Rob21]

IMHO the pilots were "instructed" by the company to tell the "distracted by a discussion" story.

This "story" would give to the public the impression that, even though they overshot their landing point, no risk to the passengers was involved.

If the pilots admit they fell asleep, the "damage" to the company would be enormous and the crew rest policy would be raised vigorously.

To the company's point of view, it is better to have "kinda distracted" pilots than to have tired pilots flying around...

No one falls asleep at the controls of anything purposely. People fall asleep because they are VERY tired.

If the pilots got "distracted", this is their (the pilot's) problem. But if they are excessively tired, this is a company's problem...

On a second thought, I believe these pilots are being "pressured" by the whole airline "universe", and I would include the FAA.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Rob

[repariit]

Lzerdog has suggested, Hypoxia, the only rational explanation so far that accounts for both the incident and the crew's statements. The problem is that had it occurred we would have already heard that the oxygen system had dropped the masks, or at least that some in the back had lost consciousness.

This one is so newsworthy because it is sooo bizarre. A taxiway landing is much easier to comprehend.

[Graybeard]

Hypoxia could explain it, save for the fact the ATC comm (after the NORDO) I heard on tv had the pilot coming right back with clear and professional acknowledgements and repeats of clearances.

[kick the tires]

I presume the aircraft was in HDG?

Just as well they were carrying a bucket load of fuel and not planning on laning with CNR!

What were the CC doing?? There always always always ask me for our ETA and god help us if we are a few minutes late!!!:)

But no checks that FD are ok, every 20 mins?

There is a lot more to this than meets the eye!

[BOAC]

PPrune at its best again!

We have:

'hypoxia' - despite the fact that the c/crew and pax appear to have been unaffected

'they forgot to programme the arrival into the computer' - heavens above can these guys not FLY? Good job they programmed the computer to taxy out at departure AND take off:ugh:

One US operator (or is it just one US pilot?) appears ' not to care' about post 9/11 security issues.

What we have not yet had is that the A320 would not LET them descend or turn and also shut down their radios - or was it aliens?

CNN - "The lead flight attendant told officers she was unaware there had been an incident aboard, the report said." - classic! He/she was probably asleep as well.

[captjns]

...........................deleted

[BenThere]

The unique aspect of our business is that you are often only one short lapse, which might last only a second, from disaster or ruin.

Those who make it through a full career without a significant dustup have made a remarkable achievement.

I hope these guys can recover and contribute to their families' and their profession's welfare once again.

[captjns]

If the FAA takes certificate action against and Delta terminates these two gents and, then reality is hardly likely.

Think about... It takes years of experience to get to where these two were in their career.... but micro seconds to have it all vaporized.

[cessnapuppy]

I refer of course to the virulently neuro-toxic (and blatantly denied by Boeing) windshield fluid that used to be standard equip in many an aircraft until it was phased out.

Hypoxia could explain it, save for the fact the ATC comm (after the NORDO) I heard on tv had the pilot coming right back with clear and professional acknowledgements and repeats of clearances.

I've been awakened 2 hours after going into a sleep cycle having been up for the past 24! - I clearly and succinctly explained how to log in the the system and activate the remote systems. The only thing was, this person was not authorized to have any access whatsoever and had been in fact terminated just hours before, what saved me was that I had totally mangled the system passwords I gave him!! I had really no recollection of the conversation and luckily they started playing it back before I could deny same and I was thus able to claim 'I did it on purpose to allow the bugger to catch himself'

Make no mistake, you can be totally 'out of it' and perform incredibly lucid acts and seem quite coherent but unable to react to 'out of frame' events, like an amber flashing warning light. It does put the whole 'checks and balances' thing totally on its head, and other than (or perhaps in addition to) cognition detection and monitoring devices which I have invented, we perhaps need to ensure that duty rosters are made 'uneven' meaning, a pilot with 10 hrs would be paired with one with just 2 or 3 - and of course commute to work be factored in. This would help to ensure that you dont have two pilots, each responsible for the other as checks and balances, but both knackered.

I would be curious to see if any toxicology tests were done on the pilots, other than the breathalyser (which they both passed) I've been some time concerned about a scenario where pilots (and possibly CC and PAX) being exposed to toxic incapacitating agents. At low doses, the only symptoms would be a narrowing of vision, extra salivation (drooling) and mental decognition - higher dosages of course, convulsions, cessation of breathing, involuntary bowel movements and death.

It may well be as GreenEyedTraveler stated pre-occupation/distraction (possibly enhanced by lack of sleep) not enough to cause overt nodding off, but enough to cause disabling in much the way that alcohol would.

I expect this case to be spun much like "missing your exit on the freeway" - the pilots will be disciplined in some minor way but be back in the air by years end. The administration will go along with pushing it under the carpet (lest the struggling economic 'recovery'* sputters and stalls)



*what recovery? why the one where the banks made record profits, despite being bankrupt only months and weeks before! while unemployment approaches 11% like a pedophile approaches kids in a playground!

[captjns]

I expect this case to be spun much like "missing your exit on the freeway" - the pilots will be disciplined in some minor way but be back in the air by years end. The administration will go along with pushing it under the carpet...

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. While unrelated incidents, but two with the same carrier in the same week.

I'm curious to know how ALPA will deal with this and the inadvertent taxiway arrival incident.

[BenThere]

It has been noted that the crew had a 19 hour layover and was on day 2 of a five day trip. As they were Minneapolis-based, they would have started the trip the day before and made their way to San Diego, a two hour time zone change. No excuse for not being rested, right?

I don't know about others, but I've always had difficulty adjusting to the 18-24 hour layover, particularly with 2 hour or more time zone changes. This crew would have arrived late in the evening the night before and gone to bed, tired and being on a Minneapolis-time body clock. Going to bed on their natural sleep cycle would probably result in waking up at 8 AM or so with a full day, unable to sleep, before showing up that evening for a full duty cycle, then performing a longish, 4-5 hour cross country flight. Regardless of how much time off they had, they were probably tired when they started (fatigued?)

For me, 13-14 hours is the right layover time. That allows a relaxed meal, some socializing maybe, a little reading, Ppruning or TV, and a full rest from which I can awake ready to go to work, alert and rested. Too much outside those parameters and adjustments must be made, and those adjustments are not always easy to make, nor do they always go as planned. Goes with the territory, I suppose, and we all have to tough it out sometimes.

I'm not concluding that this was a factor on this flight, just that it's something to think about, and maybe provide a little more encouragement to make rest a priority, and if too fatigued to fly, whether one has a good excuse or not, dont.

[Finn47]

The copilot is on record having said they weren´t sleeping, they weren´t arguing, they weren´t fighting. They passed the breath test, so they weren´t drinking. So, what were they doing?

The last sentence of this Wall Street Journal article suggests "another theory more likely than dozing off" without elaborating further:

NTSB to Interview Northwest Pilots - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125648038294906471.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsT op)

What ever the distraction, I´m inclined to expect something embarrassing by now. If it wasn´t, they would have come out with it already.

[captjns]

I thinks a hearing will be convened on Tuesday. We should have some interesting details then.

[Juud]

For all those bleating why the cabin crew didn´t call the pilots, and for those who´d slap their CC (hot flight management there glueball) for calling, from post #91:
The pilots were finally alerted to their situation when a flight attendant called on an intercom from the cabin.

[BOAC]

"Would you guys like a night cap?"

[GlueBall]

The pilots were finally alerted to their situation when a flight attendant called on an intercom from the cabin

Good recall JUUD: Assuredly, this must be good news for the thousands of Freight Dog pilots who are still having to fly without cabin crew to make coffee and ding-dong their cockpits every 20 minutes! :D

[BOAC]

for the thousands of Freight Dog pilots - do I assume they are locking the flight deck door?:ugh:

Jeez - I've seen some really agressive cardboard boxes.

[filejw]

From a friend who works at NWA. Things are pointing toward missing a hand off, a bad microphone and or radio, possibly not setting the up the radio heads correctly and poor no-radio procedures.

[BOAC]

I think you should add 'and deficient navigational skills'?

EVERY jet pilot knows you start descent about 20 minutes before landing, surely?

[protectthehornet]

Ben there...

yes I agree with you...13-14 hour overnights are about right. 10 hours at the hotel minimum in my eyes. More is a waste of my productivity...less and i'm not up to snuff for flying the next day.

I take what the pilots have said at face value. I hope they write up a a nice NASA form with the truth.

I hope they don't have any punishment against them except to make a video about what happened so others don't screw up.

I've seen pilots ''zone out'' before. Sad and funny.

[ZQA297/30]

BOAC Jeez - I've seen some really agressive cardboard boxes.
Know you're only kidding, but I have seen crabs(large!) and snakes in the cabin on pax a/c; heard of horses, large cats (leopards I think), monkeys, parrots loose in cargo cabin; and real live robbers in suitcases in baggage holds.
Not to mention refugees in wheel wells.
Be careful, you are not alone up there (sometimes).

[repariit]

Just curious, are there two or three VHF's, two or three audio select's, and multiple mic's on that airplane?

[captjns]

From a friend who works at NWA. Things are pointing toward missing a hand off, a bad microphone and or radio, possibly not setting the up the radio heads correctly and poor no-radio procedures.

Lets see... missing a handoff for 1:10 minutes plus? Ooooo kay.?.?

While at it, not that I'm suggesting it, but on the surface, to the casual observer it could appear that NWA SOPs may not have been adhered to:confused:. It may appear to the gallery that there was a loss of Situational Awareness:confused:. It also seems that they may not have followed Loss Communications Procedures, that is, if they had Situational Awareness as it related to their prediciment:confused::suspect::confused:.

How do you explain the above to the passengers, fellow crewmembers, that entrusted their lives in the hands of the flightcrew, let alone the company, and the FAA?

Looks like it's gonna be a pretty hard sell. Hope they can pull a rabbit out of their hats.

[OD100]

How many ACARS messages were sent to the crew? How did all those get missed?

[Avman]

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS. The error only came to light when the F/A intervened.

[lomapaseo]

Can somebody remind me where the rumor about arguning about company proceedures came from?

Unfortunately I was accepting this as second hand fact.:ouch:

[Airbubba]

Can somebody remind me where the rumor about arguning about company proceedures came from?

I believe this version is from a publicly available police report.

From today's Wall Street Journal web page:

The situation became even more murky when it turned out that the pilots told law-enforcement officials waiting for them at the Minneapolis-St. Paul international airport that they simply got distracted by a heated discussion over company policy and lost track of where they were.

Pilots to Tell NTSB They Weren't Asleep - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125648038294906471.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsT op)

[BOAC]

I'm beginning to like the idea that they had the wrong route in the box - multi-sector/multi-destination etc - 'if it is Friday it must be.... oh hell! it's Thursday'

What about the paperwork, though? Hmm!

[AnthonyGA]

I notice that the pilots assert that they were distracted rather than asleep. If they were really asleep, it seems to me that it would be better to admit it than to make up a story about being distracted. Falling asleep is physiologically inevitable if they are excessively tired, whereas not paying attention to their job is a serious and avoidable mistake that can easily justify dismissal. So if they are insisting that they weren't asleep, this fact alone tends to imply that they are telling the truth. Why would they make it worse for themselves?

Of course, falling asleep is a serious problem, too, but, whereas not paying attention is entirely the pilots' fault, fatigue could also be partly the fault of an abusive employer. I suppose pilots technically have the right to cancel their trips if they perceive that they are too tired to fly, but how many pilots actually do that and manage to escape any retribution by their employers?

[xetroV]

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS. The error only came to light when the F/A intervened.
I think this is a plausible theory and one that can be easily proved by looking up the destination airport as stored on the Flight Data Recorder / ACMS. Of course, there are more holes in the cheese in that scenario too (such as loosing radio-contact).

[grebllaw123d]

xetroV,

I do not think that this is a plausible explanation for 2 reasons.
1. The track flown beyond MSP as shown in post#5 does not lead to DTW.
2. The routing San Diego- DTW will not pass MSP.

bgds

[Avman]

You've all got it wrong. They loaded DTW, their other hub, iso MSP into the FMS.

T'was actually said TIC, based loosely on something that occurred in our airspace a few moons ago when another route then that which had been filed in the FPL was entered into the FMS. (The company had several route options for the dep/dest concerned).

[filejw]

123d All above incorrect. NWA dispatch have many routes between the west coast and DTW depending on wind and weather. I have personally flown over MSP en route to DTW from SoCal and you can be routed father to the northeast toward GRB to get to DTW.

[BenThere]

Review their track on page one of this thread.

Looks to me like they hit Redwood Falls, the last fix on the normal KSAN-KMSP flight plan route and the first fix of their likely arrival, SKETR 3. Then, as I suspect the arrival was not loaded, they proceded to the next and last fix in the box, KMSP. Overflying that, they continued on the heading they held to get from RWF to KMSP. They would have had to make a right hand turn to get to either GRB, EAU, or BAE, that might take them to KDTW on a deviated route. That didn't occur, therefore I conclude it wasn't a misloaded destination that caused the problem.

Also note the radar returns overlayed on their route. I don't think a dispatch-altered route would have deviated them so far north given the relatively benign weather they were experiencing.

Your thesis, filejw, might be plausible had there been an extended weather area to avoid, but that clearly wasn't the case on the night in question.

[filejw]

Ben, All I'm saying is NWA does go that far north to get to DTW not that that's what i think they did. In fact my 320 friends are getting word it is a small mechanical and then procedural errors after missing a hand off.I have know idea what the subject they were talking about to miss the hand off. Maybe they were trying to figure out the 7 new heath care options Delta just presented us with. LOL

[LastCall]

Couple of things that are SOP at our place after loading the FMC, and I’m sure at most others, is a check for possible gross errors in the loading process:

1- Total distance in the FMC agrees with that of the flight plan.
2- Time to destination in the FMC agrees with the flight plan.
3- Fuel over destination in the FMC agrees with the flight plan.

If these simple checks had been carried out after the FMC was loaded at the departure airport then how could an accidental loading of the wrong destination NOT have been detected before they left San Diego???

Seems an unlikely scenario to this observer.

[mseyfang]

I agree with you. If you pull up the flight on flightaware, the flight plan route -- ...FSD...RWF...SKETR3 is what they flew. SKETR3 is a straight track toward MSP from RWF; they simply overflew MSP on the same course as that arrival. IMO, that's pretty conclusive in ruling out some sort of data entry error.

[protectthehornet]

Has Northwest recently changed its radio call sign to Delta?

[Newforest2]

I think post 36 page 2 will answer your question.

[CaptainChaotic]

We used to play games with each other(no SLF & over jungle), when one of us fell asleep the other would shout "turning", which meant you had already missed your marker, the look of terror was a sight to behold.

When your having a microsleep it's always the unexpected sounds that wake you, in this case the CC calling. Any sound that is expected can be quite loud and you miss it.

Your limbic brain still operates when sleeping, the best solution would be a sound that is different each time.

[captjns]

Has Northwest recently changed its radio call sign to Delta?

Wouldn't the crew a wee be a bit suspicious for being out of radio contact for more than an hour:suspect:?

[RobertS975]

I agree with those that feel that the future salvation of their careers would have been better had they stated that they had fallen asleep rather than clain they were distracted. If they had fallen asleep, they would most likely have gone out and demonstrated that they suffered from sleep apnea, been properly treated and eventually reinstated. And they would have called further attention to the fact of fatigue in the cockpit, distant duty bases and deadhead flying to their bases etc.

Many pilots have to commute to their duty bases and actually have to start their day many hours before they arrive at their duty stations.

Asleep or distracted, the best tact is obviously for the crew to be as truthful as they can be. But I would have rather they had fallen asleep than have claimed to be distracted.

[DC-ATE]

Seems like many recent accidents focus on "commuting" pilots. Granted not every pilot can live near his/her home base, but most who commute choose to do so and it is their responsibility to be ready to fly their trip when scheduled. I'm talking scheduled pilots now. Reserve pilots have an even greater responsibility to be at or near the field when called if they choose to commute. Again...most pilots CHOOSE to commute.

I commuted for most of my career and only recall a couple of times when I had to "drop" the trip for not making it. That of course required a reserve to be called out which was unfair to him, but that's what reserves are for. Kinda boils down to: plan ahead.

[CaptainChaotic]

I think the climate of fear you live in as an airline pilot can lead to accidents.
We were very open with each other, would always let the other know of our alertness. Knowing a friend is in distress and needs you to pull through for them is worth 5 coffees. I'm not sure a passenger pilot would tell his copilot that he had a rough night and is going to battle to keep awake.

Like Dirty Harry used to say "A man has to know his limitations".

People need to know that pilots can fall asleep and procedures should be in place to stop any accidents when it happens, not fight the laws of nature by trying to select super humans as pilots.

As aircraft become more automated this problem is going to get a lot worse. IMO the simplest solution is for the computers to mix it up, data entry and operation is randomized. Altitude is not always the second entry, values have to be entered including their units of measurement. Sound and visual alerts begin with a random sound/light sequence then revert to normal values. The result should be that no two warnings/alerts ever sound/look the same because in real life no two warnings/alerts are the same as they occur at different moments in time. A human brain is hard wired to wake, using a limbic response, if it senses danger, danger is identified as an unusual or a known dangerous sound.

[DozyWannabe]

...data entry and operation is randomized. Altitude is not always the second entry, values have to be entered including their units of measurement.
Without wanting to sound overly blunt, I sincerely hope you're joking - mistaken FMS entries have caused far too many hull losses and near-misses over the years - the Cali 757, and the Indian and Air Inter A320s just for starters!

[CaptainChaotic]

Without wanting to sound overly blunt, I sincerely hope you're joking

If you know the system is random, then you wont make the mistake of assuming you know your current position in the sequence. Having to enter the units of measurement is the the backup.
The reason why so many errors happen is because they can't help but assume they know where they are in the data entry sequence. If you take away the ability to make that assumption then you solve the problem.

[AnthonyGA]

Nothing should change in routine, safety-related procedures. They need to be the same every time, so that pilots can carry them out automatically and smoothly from memory. Mixing things up guarantees that very bad things will happen. Before anyone gives me the usual speech about how flying is different, no, it's not different from operating other vehicles and machines in this respect. There's no point in training to do something if the actual way of doing it will change each time it's done … that's just an invitation to disaster.

However, I've been thinking that one partial solution for sleeping in the cockpit could be video games, integrated directly into aircraft systems. You could offer pilots a choice of simple games. The common traits to all the games would be that they require a reasonable intellectual effort and high level of alertness, they would be easily interruptible, they wouldn't be so complex that they would entice a pilot into diverting his attention from other matters, and perhaps they would exercise the same skills that a pilot needs for flying.

One example of this is Tetris. If you've played this, you know how addictive it is. It's a simple game that's easy to interrupt, but it still requires clear thinking, fast reaction, and intellectual effort. It's easy to play Tetris for long periods, but it's also easy to stop if something else comes up. It is too fast to bore you to sleep, but it's easy enough to play that you don't have to concentrate exclusively on the game (you can even talk to people while you play).

When there's nothing to do in the cockpit during a long cruise, the pilot can enable the games, and play a selection of games to give himself something to do so that he doesn't nod off from boredom. No game can prevent a person from sleeping if he is well and truly fatigued, but if it's just very light fatigue, or simple boredom, a few games could help.

Since the games would be integrated into the aircraft systems, any anomaly would stop the game and alert the pilot. The games could be designed so that only one pilot can play at a time. You could even design "games" that require the pilot to do his job to play the game—for example, a game could periodically ask the pilot to enter the current altitude shown on his altimeter, just to force him to do an instrument scan.

There are many possibilities. I suspect there is a general taboo about "playing games" on the flight deck, but playing a game doesn't mean that someone isn't serious about working. It could just be a way to maintain vigilance on long trips. I think it would be better than reading a magazine, which is more passive and isn't integrated in a way that would guarantee that the pilot would become aware of any unusual situations.

I can also imagine these being integrated into an electronic flight book that a pilot could bring with him. If boredom threatens to put him to sleep, he pulls out this gadget and selects from a long list of games specially designed to keep him alert.

[B777FD]

Yeah. Or they could take a laptop and play flightsim and practice approaches into KMSP.

It may just be me but I'm looking forward to the reactions to the above post. :eek:

[Michael Birbeck]

@AnthonyGA

Perhaps all cockpits could be fitted with links to PPRuNe with a special filter to pick up your posts. The ensuing laughter will certainly serve to keep crews from falling asleep at least.

To quote a certain old American tennis player, "you cannot be serious". :}

Although I appreciate that you are making a serious point about mental stimulation and levels of alertness.

[Airbubba]

Without wanting to sound overly blunt, I sincerely hope you're joking - mistaken FMS entries have caused far too many hull losses and near-misses over the years - the Cali 757, and the Indian and Air Inter A320s just for starters!

I'd agree with you that the FMS mistake was huge in the Cali crash but the Indian Airlines and Air Inter A320 crashes involved incorrect vertical mode selections, not FMS (or FMC) mistakes as I recall.

Still, the format of modern FMS entries is archaic and purely textual, definitely DOS or early IBM style. You get a crossing restriction of FL90 in Europe, is it FL90, FL090, 9000, 90, /090 etc.?

We Americans couldn't correctly call out flight levels below 180 even if our lives depended on it (and maybe they do). We burn hours of sim time doing wacky 'route mods' to try to figure out how to get the FMS to do what we want. A more modern user interface like that found on some corporate aircraft would save lives and cut training costs.

However, I don't think poor FMS programming can explain more than an hour of lost comm over the Lower 48.

Maybe they really just 'lost track of the time' and forgot to descend but that explaination sure does sound fishy.

You can B.S. the fans, but you can't B.S. the players...:)

[phil gollin]

Maybe every flight should have the pilots' children on board so they can keep saying "are we there yet ?"

Seriously, were the flight attendants also "asleep" such that they didn't realise that the flight hadn't landed on time ?

.

[captjns]

Maybe every flight should have the pilots' children on board so they can keep saying "are we there yet ?"

We do... our cabin crew. And don't forget another all time favourite question... Oh and do we have time to smoke a ciggy during the turn?

[CaptainChaotic]

Routine is a killer, it only allows you to do your safety with the least amount of hassle and the shortest time. You mistake the speed in which you carried out the task as an indication of proficiency.

If you know a system is mixed up, you take care, you double check, you never assume. All AC computers should obey one simple law, sequence of data can never be assumed, and we will all be a lot safer.

Games you say ? Well if you want to land AC without even knowing you did so, then way to go, but otherwise forget it.

[SaturnV]

Being reported now that the pilots told investigators they were working on their laptops, and the FO was instructing the Captain on how to do crew scheduling. The NTSB has supposedly said use of laptops in the cockpit is prohibited.

[CaptainChaotic]

So much for playing games on laptops to stop accidents then ;)

[wes_wall]

This just released from the NTSB - no comment.

In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that
overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-
Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation
Safety Board has developed the following factual
information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm
mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as
Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no
radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was
operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International
Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144
passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.

Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB
investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an
overview of the interviews:



* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for
over 5 hours combined.

* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His
total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000
hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot
in command.

* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997.
His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has
about 5,000 hours on the A-320.

* Both pilots said they had never had an accident,
incident or violation.

* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.

* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They
were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in
San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said
they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.

* Both said there was no heated argument.

* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit.

The pilots said there was a concentrated period of
discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or
calls from ATC even though both stated they heard
conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed
messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They
were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling
system that was now in place as a result of the
merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.

* Both said they lost track of time.

* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop
computer while they discussed the airline crew flight
scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more
familiar with the procedure was providing instruction
to the captain. The use of personal computers on the
flight deck is prohibited by company policy.

* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position
until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before
they were scheduled to land and asked what was their
estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at
that point, he looked at his primary flight display
for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They
made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to
MSP.

* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using
cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications,
not their headsets.

* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied
"just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company
issues".

* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the
flight attendants to check on the pilots during
flight.


The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and
other company personnel today. Air traffic control
communications have been obtained and are being analyzed.

Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR)
revealed the following:

* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.

* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working
during this recording. However, the crew's headset
microphones recorded their conversations.

* The CVR recording began during final approach, and
continued while the aircraft was at the gate.

* During the hours immediately following the incident
flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to
the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely
recording over several minutes of the flight.



The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several
hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight
where there was no radio communication from the flight
crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters
to see if any information regarding crew activity during the
portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be
obtained.



The Safety Board's investigation continues.

[Airbubba]

From a Wall Street Journal analysis of the above NTSB release:

Though pilots say it happens relatively infrequently, cockpit crews sometimes do open up personal laptops while cruising in good weather during quiet periods when automated flight-management systems are fully engaged. According to some pilots, members of some crews have even been known to play DVDs on laptops in the cockpit to pass away the time on particularly long overwater and international flights.

Federal safety rules don't prohibit laptops in cockpits. But the rules call for crews to always remain attentive, monitor cockpit displays and listen for transmissions from ground-based controllers.

Indeed, a number of big airlines, including JetBlue Airways Corp. have pilots using onboard laptops for routine flight calculations and duties.

But according to some pilots, the Northwest incident raises questions about whether laptop screens can block or hide some cockpit-instrument displays in the Airbus A320 and perhaps other jetliner models.


Pilots Say Laptops Contributed to Distraction - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125658134147008625.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESecondNews)

As I mentioned pages earlier, I've seen crews watch DVD's on their laptop and plug some hotwired headset plug gizmo into the the interphone so they can listen to the movie over their headsets. The laptop computer was set so that it covered most of the center panel aircraft screens. I think you had to select interphone on the mic row for the side you plugged the movie into, this may have inadvertently deselected ATC on one side at least.

Look for an explicit FAA ban on non-pertinent use of laptops in the cockpit.

As long as we can still listen to our iPods...:)

[Teddy Robinson]

A few years ago when doing the 320 TR, I had the FMGS sim on my laptop .. basically to prepare for the next sim session, my place of study was where I had done all my prep since the first ones in 1987 .. my quiet table in a corner of a local restaurant.

I had done the set up and the thing was flying a route from EGXX to EGXX
(with constraints).

Someone recognises me sat in the corner and comes over to say hello.

We amble off for a glass and a chat.

Arriving back at the laptop there is the Airbus parked obediently in the XXXXX hold awaiting further.

Reconfigure for a landing, press approach, and return to the conversation.

As this was free informal study I didn't rush back.. for all I cared the laptop could have shut down, but when I came back to pack it away, there it was sat on the centreline of RW XXL at EGXX waiting for someone to taxi it to the stand.

As somebody said during my first typerating .. " Look this isn't difficult .. they are designed for Americans to fly" !!

I trust the irony is taken in the right quarters.

TR

[CaptainChaotic]

Well they won't be able to scrub the laptops, which will provide the truth.

[Airbubba]

Well they won't be able to scrub the laptops, which will provide the truth.

Good point, I wonder if the laptops will be forensically examined?

[lomapaseo]

My read of the initial factual release is that the pilots were distracted over a long period of time.

Banning the reason for the distraction does nothing to prevent the next occurence with another crew anymore than pulling the certificate of these pilots.

[Teddy Robinson]

mobile phones, lettters, emails etc. are personal property.

Presumably now this has already escalated to a criminal investigation

Have you lost post "911" all personal rights /personal property to the state ?

That is a sincere question.

TR

[misd-agin]

Sounds like the solution would be to give more training in how bidding systems work for 'merged' employees. :ok:

[GreenEyedTraveler]

Being reported now that the pilots told investigators they were working on their laptops, and the FO was instructing the Captain on how to do crew scheduling. The NTSB has supposedly said use of laptops in the cockpit is prohibited.

As I thought. Is it time to say "I told you so?" now?

Whether it's a "laptop", or a blackberry, a mobile phone, an iPod ... whatever "mobile digital electronic device", it doesn't matter. Nor does it matter if it's "prohibited". Most major cities have complete bans on talking on cellphones and texting while driving, and those laws are not enforced, as *everyone* is yapping and texting away while they're driving nowadays.

Now apparently, this has spread to flightdecks. The expression "hang up and DRIVE!" needs to now be modified to "HANG UP (or, in this case, log-off) AND FLY!!"

I don't care how "boring" or "routine" it is. A zero-tolerance policy needs to be crafted around all these devices that are just making us dumber as a society, and LESS SAFE as pedestrians, drivers, and passengers.

FOCUS on the task at hand. And if you cannot, either get help, or get into a different line of work.

[cessnapuppy]

this is not even a laptop issue.

Why would BOTH of them be actively working on something that is NOT FLYING THE AIRCRAFT?

Missing a check point is one thing, missing a silently flashing error light is quite another.

Even if they didnt have a laptop in the cockpit doing this ****, they could have been as easily distracted with a clipboard and slide rule.

The only mitigating factor I see here is if Delta expects them to do all this rostering **** but doesn't provide a logical timeframe for them to do it (i.e. it's all due at the end of a flight but there isnt a logical break for you to do it in -other than your bathroom break) then it can be inferred that it MUST inevitably be done in the cockpit somehow

[Tri-To-Start]

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

The both simply forgot the basic rules of aviation with combined flight times of over 30,000 hours.

[Teddy Robinson]

well ... ok ... erm

[421dog]

C'mon. There is absolutely no way that someone missed a handoff for more than an hour due to screwing around with a laptop. Even on lonely flights across the blackest reaches of the upper midwest in the dead of winter, after fifteen minutes or so without hearing a call, everyone starts checking charts or twiddling with the FMS to ensure that the frequency in the box matches.

All that this is going to do is make it so that when the feds show up to ramp the next hapless 135 guy with a 402 full of cancelled checks and fedex overload who just made it (safely) across northern Minnesota in an ice storm without a functional autopilot, and who happened to do his paperwork on his laptop instead of on a clipboard, they've got a reason to violate him.

[Low Flier]

Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure was providing instruction to the captain.

It took the dumb phuq 54 year old instructor an hour to explain the Aviate;Navigate;Communicate procedure to the dumb phuq 53 year old student?

[Teddy Robinson]

Says who ? FOX "NEWS" ?

In old Europe we wait for the facts to be published. despite the national desperation to affirm that a 6 year old was in a flying gimp
( floated justifiably by his parents for a PR stunt). ?

This is no longer funny ..

Perhaps it is time for da US to start reporting facts through the correct channels rather than the public media.

TR

[wes_wall]

Seems to me, a lot of people are missing the most important aspect of this event. We have an airplane flying for 80 plus minutes, unable to respond to repeated contact attempts by ATC and by Company, and nothing being done by any security measure to actually confirm what the problem might very well be. The center can prevent traffic conflict, but the center cannot prevent the airplane from going anywhere the guys driving care to take it, or point it. Unacceptable, on all vectors. Heads should roll, and not only thoses flying the aiirplane. Indeed, who was paying attention to who and what was flying.

[Razoray]

There has been much discussion about pilots in the States not getting paid enough and not having the respect they deserve. And I agree 100%. But than something like this happens. Too busy on there lap tops?

Must be looking at porn or something...thats my best guess. Come on guys get it together......

:{

[Teddy Robinson]

is this an american problem ?

[CONF iture]

But according to some pilots, the Northwest incident raises questions about whether laptop screens can block or hide some cockpit-instrument displays in the Airbus A320 and perhaps other jetliner models
No No No ... only on the BUS !
These sliding tables are so convenient ...

[protectthehornet]

So, Northwest had a perfectly good crew scheduling system and DELTA had to change it...and they didn't provide ground school in how to use it.

And ATC took over an our to figure out to use the last frequency that this flight responded on. Now I know ATC has limited Freqs, but having another flight attempt to contact a wayward NORDO plane is not a new idea.

yes, these guys screwed up. but...oh well...better to start looking for a new job

[michael744]

I remember that too. Wasn't that around the time two Republic pilots in a Republic MD-80 were arguing during taxi about the merger with NWA and forgot the checklist resulting in attempting a T/O with no L.E. or T.E flaps down? They crashed into a freeway a few hundred meters from the end of the runway killing over a 100 people. Whatever the investigation finds in this latest case there is no excuse in either case for being that inattentive. This isn't about Karma Ironbutt57, it is about actions and/or the lack of them.