Avanti down on ice cap

[ferrydude]

Any details on the Piaggio Avanti that was enroute to BGBW and went down in the icecap after diverting to Sondrestrom?

[gazbert]

CADORS number 2009A0990, 16 Oct 09

Narrative:
N108GF, PIAGGIO P180, enroute from Keflavik (BIKF) to Narsarsuaq (BGBW) was cleared out of controlled airspace and reported leaving 19,500 ft. at 13:29. At 14:10Z Sondrestrom Flight Information Centre (FIC) called to advise that N108GF had missed the approach and requested an IFR clearance to Kangerlussuaq (BGSF) at 30,000 ft. Gander Oceanic was unable to issue clearance at 30,000 ft. due to traffic. BGSF FIC further advised that the pilot reported fuel critical and was climbing to 30,000 ft. Traffic was not in close proximity to the flight. Gander Oceanic was unable to talk to the flight and was unsure of the actions taken by the pilot. The flight was estimated to have exited Gander airspace at 14:45Z. Reykjavík (BIRK) Area Control Centre (ACC) later advised that the flight was over due at the destination and had advised Kangerlussuaq that the fuel situation was very serious. ETA for Kangerlussuaq was approximately 15:15Z and as of 17:32Z no arrival report had been received. At 18:00Z BIRK ACC supervisor called to advise that the aircraft had been located on the ice cap. The pilot had survived and was being transported to Kangerlussuaq.

[Flap Sup]

Pilot in one piece, aircraft in many pieces.

[bicolanoboy]

any pics on the Executive?ive flown this avanti back in the sandtrap..






"THERE'S ALWAYS A KRYPTONITE FOR EVERYTHING"

[Moretimeoff]

Why don't some people know that engines run longer with fuel going to them.:ugh:

[capt.babydoll]

anyone Know About This??????

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A little birdy told me one ran out of fuel, something to do with not being equipped for RVSM and having a problem with head winds at a low altitude.

[capt.babydoll]

Who Was The Pilot? Ran Out Of Fuel? What? Omg, What An Idiot, Everyone At Avantair Is Talking About It

[Moretimeoff]

He is ex Avantair Capt

[lpokijuhyt]

Gazbert: thanks for the update. Does anyone know what the weather conditions were at the airport?

[ab33t]

Lucky man or not?

[clunckdriver]

Maybe there are some Nazi radio opps still hiding around the locality and continue to send out false bearing and weather reports, mind you this could be a good investment, the P38 recovered from the cap was worth over fifty times its original cost by the time it was rebuilt!

[ferrydude]

If I didnt have sufficient fuel for the alternate I would declare and emergency and fly the ILS all the way to the runway.

Tain't no ILS at BGBW:)

[Empty Cruise]

...so you'd continue down the NDB/D 07 circling only till... :}

Sorry, couldn't resist - getting coat now...

[SoundBarrier]

I don't care who you are or what you think of this guy airdriver123, capt.babydoll, your posts are totally inappropriate. Enjoying the misfortunes of others is a very shallow view on the world. I don't wish harm on others, even those whom I may have issues with, let alone publicly enjoy their misfortunes.

Someone could have died in this, a family would have lost a loved one, and all you have to do about this is laugh. How would your family feel if someone laughed at your misfortune that could have resulted (or worse DID) in death?

These forums are to help us all learn, grow and contribute within aviation and, even in JB, there is little tolerance for this sort of behaviour.

Have a little think dude.

[Moretimeoff]

I believe the post that have been removed where actually apporiate for the person in question. Every one knew he is OK from the crash except for his latino pride. He is one of those persons that knew everything and always criticized everyone elses decision making. If he did not like a fellow worker he was really hard on them and bad mouthed them.

So what goes around comes around! :D

Do not jump to conclusions so fast if you do not know the person in question. :=

[SoundBarrier]

Hi MoreTimeOff

So what goes around comes around!

Very true indeed. So why slag someone else in such a negative manner if what you say is correct? It's going to come right back to you at some stage. I'd personally rather that someone learn from their mistakes and give them a chance to better themselves and improve. But that's just me, giving people the benefit of the doubt which gives me less stress in the end. For the most part, I've had successful outcomes.

Each to their own I suppose.

Oh and one last thing...
Do not jump to conclusions so fast if you do not know the person in question.

Have you seen the official accident report? How about them conclusions and jumping to them? Just a thought.

[papazulu]

Who Was The Pilot? Ran Out Of Fuel? What? Omg, What An Idiot, Everyone At Avantair Is Talking About It

Are you part of the Spanish Inquisition, Boss of FAA/NTSB/ENAC or ALL the above?

I believe the post that have been removed where actually apporiate for the person in question. Every one knew he is OK from the crash except for his latino pride. He is one of those persons that knew everything and always criticized everyone elses decision making. If he did not like a fellow worker he was really hard on them and bad mouthed them.

Very kind of you but your sarcasm is not:

Why don't some people know that engines run longer with fuel going to them

So what goes around comes around!

Could not agree more!

PZ :mad:

[4HolerPoler]

Guys - a supermod has been through this thread & cleaned up what he felt was "personal" - a number of posts have disappeared - forum mods had been cleaning this thread up, removing personal identification and direct personal attacks but clearly it wasn't enough to satisfy Health & Safety and there's been a clean-out. My advice is keep it clean - avoid any personal attacks.

4HP

[airdriver123]

this latin guy give all pilots a bad name.

sounds like a horrible pilot, and a horrible person.

[Flap Sup]

Airdriver123 et al,

You sure are quick to jugde a pilot for a flight that you only have hearsay information from!

You claim that he is a horrible pilot, yet he was ablt to land his ac on the icecap in +BLSN (whiteout conditions) and yet survive it.

You claim you would have flown the approach down to 0' regardless of met conditions, and therefore I really doubt you have ever been to bgbw. You cant even trust the published landing charts, because icebergs may float in and block finals. Furthermore the taf for that day was decent, yet the airport fogged in.

I'm sure the caa report tells us if he made the right decisions.

[hawker750]

Flap Sup
Having been to BGBW mant times it is a brave pilot who plans to go there without an alternate within range. The fact that he ran out of fuel does rather suggest that he did not plan an alternate. If the winds were bad then best wait until they get better,
I took of from BGBW in a Thrush Commander in CAVOK not a cloud in the sky. I could not climb up the glacier so I went down the fiord. 20 miles down the fiord I met thick fog coming up at about 15 knots. Luckily I could do a 180. 10 minutes after I landed back at BGBW it was less than 100 metres. Better to go on the ice than try a zero/zero into there.
Anyway what about Gothab and Paamiut just up the coast? Unlikely they would have been both out.

[Heliarctic]

Hello
Kangerlussuaq as BGSF is called lies at the bottom of a fiord, it can be a difficult airport to make an approach into, the surrounding terrain is high, the 10.000´+ runway seems tiny in the terrain, and it slopes upwards coming from the fiord making it seem shorter, and that very fact has caused a crash years ago.
Severe turbulence is not uncommon. Often the daily flight from Denmark has returned unable to land because of weather, the temperatures in winter can be extreme because of it´s inland climate, low 40´s in celsius are not uncommon in the winter. Daylight in winter is really short for weeks because the sun dips below the horizon. The nearest airports are BGMQ & BGSS which lie approx.170 & 150 KM to the west but both of them only have 799 Meter runways and are often dogged by bad weather. These are usually served by air greenland dash 7´s.
The many crashes that have occured in and around the airport is a testament to it´s operating nature.
Regards

[ferrydude]

Helicarctic, you are confusing BGBW with BGSF. Icebergs are indeed an issue at BGBW. Have a look at the terminal procedures

[oy05]

Foto: Nødlanding på indlandsisen - Politiken.dk (http://politiken.dk/fotografier/reportagefoto/article850036.ece)

My 1'st posting ;)

[S.F.L.Y]

Golden Falcon Aviation (http://www.gfaviation.com/Piaggio_n108gf.html)

What kind of AOC are they running on to do N-reg charters?

[ferrydude]

What makes you think it was a charter?

[Heliarctic]

@Ferrydude
You are correct
Head not properly attached at the time of reading/writing
Thread edited
And regarding BGBW, the terrain is even higher than BGSF, which many have found out in an unfortunate way.
Regards

[S.F.L.Y]

Golden Falcon Aviation is fully committed in offering customized aircraft charter and unlimited VIP transport of business and leisure travelers. With highly qualified staff, FAA certified pilots, unparalleled service, ultimate in luxury and convenience all our clients will arrive in style.

From their website.

[AircraftOperations]

I think they operate N-reg charters in the middle east... not the only Kuwaiti based operator to do this I believe.

But I don't think this particular flight was a commercial flight (possibly where the confusion lies).

[S.F.L.Y]

These aircrafts were operating out of Kuwait where I don't think they had a local AOC. Name one Middle East country which allows N-reg commercial ops on a permanent basis.

[Moretimeoff]

Golden Falcon Aviation is fully committed in offering customized aircraft charter and unlimited VIP transport of business and leisure travelers. With highly qualified staff, FAA certified pilots, unparalleled service, ultimate in luxury and convenience all our clients will arrive in style.

Per the above quote he sure arrived in style. :D:D

[ferrydude]

Since when was a legitimate AOC required for charter ops in that region?

[S.F.L.Y]

Since when was a legitimate AOC required for charter ops in that region?

Very funny. Do you think insurers are covering illegal operations?

[ferrydude]

Even funnier is; What makes you think there is insurance?

[bicolanoboy]

http://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00399/_____Intet_navn_____399307i.jpghttp://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00399/_____Intet_navn_____399303i.jpghttp://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00399/_____Intet_navn_____399305i.jpghttp://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00399/_____Intet_navn_____399304r.jpghttp://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00399/_____Intet_navn_____399308i.jpg



TSK TSK TSK....

What a waste...i used to fly this baby back in the SandPit...well....


" THERES ALWAYS A KRYPTONITE FOR SUPERMAN"

[bicolanoboy]

"American FO Laid OFF Because the "Captain" run out of Fuel"

Based On a Text Message:

"&*^%$ ran Out of Fuel so i lost my Job"

is this just?or is it plainly pathetic... losing a job for someone else's fault....hmmm that doesn't sound right.. no wonder they couldn't even say the proper pronunciation of the aircraft..."Biaggio" P and B Deficiency...:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[S.F.L.Y]

"&*^%$ ran Out of Fuel so i lost my Job"

is this just?or is it plainly pathetic... losing a job for someone else's fault.

Well what's the point of keeping an FO with no aircraft? Even if it wasn't the captain's fault, I don't think insurances would cover illegal charter operations.

[ferrydude]

Ha ha, now does this sound like someone that would operate illegally? After all, it is on the internet.
:ugh:

"Golden Falcon Aviation is fully committed in offering customized aircraft charter and unlimited VIP transport of business and leisure travelers. With highly qualified staff, FAA certified pilots, unparalleled service, ultimate in luxury and convenience all our clients will arrive in style."

[S.F.L.Y]

Ferrydude, have you heard of Prestige Jet? They also have a nice website offering charter ops... but do they have an AOC authorizing N-reg commercial ops?

[ferrydude]

You make my point, thanks!:ok:

[bicolanoboy]

Well what's the point of keeping an FO with no aircraft? Even if it wasn't the captain's fault, I don't think insurances would cover illegal charter operations.

Ferrydude,

The sad part is it was a single crew during the mishap the FO was flying elsewhere with another Captain...hmmmmmm...:D:D

[Moretimeoff]

Yep sounds as if that Captain needed and FO to cover his butt so he would have not got in a bad situation. Maybe the FO knew more than the Captain so he was terminated. I hear the Captain is also the Chief Pilot at this fly by night operation. Screw up and move up. :ugh:

[Moretimeoff]

Has any one found any documentation of this crash by the NTSB or FAA since it is a N registered plane?

[theaviator2005]

As i have been working in Kuwait for the past 3 years i had the chance to speak to a few of the guy's working at Golden Falcon Aviation.

Yes, i have for a long time had a hard time understanding how these guy's were allowed to operate Commercial charters on N-Reg aircraft's but somehow they do.

Most often its cos the Owner is RICH and know's the right people (thats how everything works in the middle east anyway's) But i do know that they operate commercial and advertise doing so as-well, i even saw them at the MEBAC in Dubai (the business airshow) having their own booth advertising charter's.

The guy's i talked to were Underpaid (for the region) pilot's, the captain i talked to had good experience though and looked like he knew what he was doing, i.e prob why he managed to survive. Most often these guy's would fly single pilot on the Piaggio, and could be with duty-days easy over 12 hours according to the pilots i talked to. Kinda tough as the piaggio aint far from a normal jet.
When i talked to them they also had to do their own flight planning and take care of everything else themself's.

I'm not in place to speak negative or positive about the Pilot's, and im not trying to do so either, im just saying to others who might think about working in the middle east that you have to look around, do your re-search and make sure that the company your working for is up to standards.

I know time's hard right now and many pilot's will take what ever is available i.e why they could find guy's to fly a Piaggio for only $45,000 per year which is well below for captain pay for corporate flying in this region, but if you do not do you re-search well you might very well end in same situations as several companies are Cheating, lying and doing what ever they can to get everything their way.

Also the reason why i just Resigned my position after 3 years, as i have had enough working for a company who is unreliable, low lying scum who only have one thing in mind which is to screw their pilots over as good as they can.

Im out of the Sandbox and do not expect ever to return and again will just advice others as said earlier to make sure you re-search everything before getting a job in the middle east or you might just endup as the NEXT PIAGGIO ON GREENLAND!!!:eek:

[S.F.L.Y]

Yes, i have for a long time had a hard time understanding how these guy's were allowed to operate Commercial charters on N-Reg aircraft's but somehow they do.

Most often its cos the Owner is RICH and know's the right people (thats how everything works in the middle east anyway's) But i do know that they operate commercial and advertise doing so as-well, i even saw them at the MEBAC in Dubai (the business airshow) having their own booth advertising charter's.

It's not because the guy is rich that the operation is legal. What are insurers saying?
What if an accident involves commercial passengers? Would they be covered? That's the key and it isn't different in the ME than anywhere else.

I don't see what's wrong with preparing flight plans, tin my opinion hat's something pilots should be able to do regularly. I don't see how doing research on employers would have saved this guy from ending on the ice, you have surprising shortcuts.

[theaviator2005]

Are you just plain stupid????

First off you should learn to spell when you write a post!!!!

I have worked in the Middle East for 3 years, before this i worked in the US/Europe and Asia, apart from being a pilot i was also the Sales Manager for my company and thereby know many of the in's and out's of the business in the Middle East.

All you need to do is take a look at the past 3 years in the Middle East and look at how many companie's have gone Bankrupt, or havent paid their pilots, or removed schedules and i can go on and on..

As the sales manager for my company i can tell you i have been in contact with SEVERAL companies in this region that were operating N-reg aircraft's ILLEGAL, and either not informing the insurance about ther commercial operations OR buying off-shore insurance's that requires less if ANY background checks.

Believe me when i also say that the FAA are looking into Golden Falcon and many others as they have been receiving several reports from various operators who are tired of having faker's operate at lower rates as they do not have the same expences as others....

Of ur spelling i kinda take it that you are from the Middle East and therefor feel that your feet are being stepped on when people are posting Negative post's about the Middle East, in the future before you make post's you should prob. get some background knowledge of the situation, get to know operators around this region before you start talking back at me this way!!!

I am trying to make others aware that there are SERIOUS issues in the Middle East in regards to operators i.e reason why i am leaving and NO i did not get fired i choose to leave my 165.000usd job a year as i no longer want to be a part of the ongoing bull.... going on in this region.

I have NOOOOO problems in pilots doing their own flight plan's and i do myself aswell, i do however have problems when i talk to pilots who WORK for this company which im sure u havent done, who tells me they are doing preflight planning 3 hours before a 10 hour flight to iceland giving them a total workday of over 15 hours and then MIN rest flying single pilot...

Yes that point is about safety and it happens often in the Middle East with several operators on various jet's that pilots are being pushed by their company to work far beyond their duty limitations and not doing so would result in threats or others by their company.

So again trying to warn others about the situation in the Middle East and the possibility if not knowing the company good before you join that you might end up in a company where you do end up on the ice on greenland!!!

And if you think im still wrong, then try to make a search on PPrune and see how much negative feedback the Middle East have compared to USA/EUROPE or ASIA..... The Middle East is byfar in front on that account.


Oh and just an extra note.... Thankfully the FAA are looking into the various operators in the Middle East who are operating illegal, im so happy to know they not only are gunning for the companies but also the PILOTS who work or used to work for these companies,,, i personally cant stand these pilots who knowingly are helping these companies making the current situation and requtation of the business worse then it already is, and im glad that several pilots will get their license revoked!!!!!!!
Any pilot working or used to work for these types of operators who are saying they didnt know anything are full of S..T, AOC/INSURANCE and normal brainfunction should be found inside the aircraft!!!:suspect:

NIGHT:ugh:

[theaviator2005]

And just if anyone are interested in next part of the accident report:

Reports from Kangerlussuaq airport personnell (landed BGSF 1845z on the accident date, after re-routing CYYR-BGBW to CYYR-BGGH then diverting to alternate BGSF) was that the pilot missed the approach twice at BGBW and also that the pilot had filed 02+00 ETE and 02+45 fuel endurance in apparant violation of ICAO flight planning and alternate regulations.


This guy was an IDIOT!!!!

[bicolanoboy]

very well said....:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[S.F.L.Y]

Aviator 2005, I will only use few lines to let you know that, like you, I'm also in the region for a couple years with a JAR European pilot background and like you I'm holding a managerial position involving dealing with operators, customers and authorities. I'm not going to elaborate on your comments since you didn't make the effort to enter a polite and civilized discussion.

I said:
I don't see how doing research on employers would have saved this guy from ending on the ice

and you said:
i personally cant stand these pilots who knowingly are helping these companies making the current situation and requtation of the business worse then it already is, and im glad that several pilots will get their license revoked!!!!!!!
Any pilot working or used to work for these types of operators who are saying they didnt know anything are full of S..T, AOC/INSURANCE and normal brainfunction should be found inside the aircraft!!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

Do you get the link or is it that I'm just plain stupid?
With such communications skills your sales targets must be hard to reach.
All the best for your new life.

[Jetstar2Pilot]

Here is the link pertaining to the final report on this accident.

http://havarikommissionen.instant.cohaesio.net/~/media/Files/Havarikommissionen/Havarirapporter/Luftfart%202009/HCLJ510_2011_33.ashx

[robbreid]

Thanks for the update !!!