Two questions on alcohol

[multi_engined]

1) For pilots the limit is 0.02, does the eight hour bottle to throttle rule still apply?.. Now that there is a BAC limit...

2) What are airline company policies such as QF for flight crew, I guess something like none 24 hours prior to signing on?

[*Lancer*]

Hi multi-engined,

1) The regulations have not changed.

2) Qantas operates to the regulations.

[airman13]

as I know, 24 hrs policy related to alcohol is for airlines such JAL, Singapore ,Cathay,Malayesian, ANA,Korean, etc, for european and united states is 8 hrs policy.....what I do not know is for russian, maybe to be reduced at 3-4 hrs

[Founder]

The alcohol limit depends on which country you're in... 2 UK pilots where not allowed to board their plane when they were on the "UK" limit of 0,02 in Helsinki where the limit is 0...

if you're flying from a country that has limits which are more strict, those limits apply...

Thomas Cook uses 9 hours...

[Unhinged]

For pilots the limit is 0.02

With some trepidation ... where did you get this number from ?

[Capt Fathom]

CASR 1998 Part 99

Drug and alcohol management plans and testing.

[mcgrath50]

Am I right in thinking the reason for the 0.02 is that the testing recently brought in can't do any better or something like that? Admitedly I remember reading it here so it's likely I have been led up the garden path !

[Arm out the window]

It makes for an interesting legal concept if they put such a limit on it - surely someone could argue that it doesn't matter how the 0.02 comes about, left over from the previous night or a quick coldie during the walkaround!

[MyNameIsIs]

Arm,
unless you did the walkaround 8hrs before you flew it and had the coldie then (despite the fact that you'd probably be zero by then anyway), CAR 256 (3) would still apply:

in short "no grog 8 hours before departure" would still apply.


mcgrath, i think when the AOD info packs came out, it had something stating that a reading below 0.02 is taken to be sober for some reason, maybe due accuracy or the potential of false zeros.
however i cannot find anything yet that had the explanation on it.

[*Lancer*]

The whole '8 hour' concept is a legal minefield. How do you prove that the drink in the photo is alcoholic? How do you prove that you actually ingested from the glass in your hand?

You can prove your BAC is over a threshold.

Notwithstanding the fact that if you accidentally had a sip of something within the 8 hours (picked up someone else's glass for example), you're unfit to operate. Silly.

[mcgrath50]

Interestingly I read this just today on the issue of charging pilots for alcohol consumption Cockpit Chronicles: "Flying Drunk" by Joe Balzer | Gadling.com (http://www.gadling.com/2009/10/16/cockpit-chronicles-flying-drunk-by-joe-balzer/)

[bentleg]

Quote:
For pilots the limit is 0.02
With some trepidation ... where did you get this number from ?


CASR Part 99 says the permitted level is -


(b) for alcohol — a level of alcohol of less than 0.02 grams of alcohol in 210 litres of breath.


Why 0.02? Possibly like drivng alcolol tests. A small amount can be present from medications etc and rather than get into that debate it's a practical solution to let readings of 0.02 or less go through.

[longrass]

I think CASA cockheads have realized that GA operators are tight asses and they testing equipment they buy will be ****! 0.02 otherwise alot of pilots will fail testing due listerine, cinnamon or chewing gum. Or being hungover?

[PLovett]

The limit of 0.02 is to allow for the inherent inaccuracy in the testing equipment. For those who have been random breath tested the equipment used there has a higher inaccuracy factor which is why it is only used as a screener, to sort out those that need to be tested versus those that don't. The real reading for court purposes is the thing used either back at the station or in the random booze bus.

In effect a 0.02 reading means zero blood/alcohol. If you are in excess it doesn't matter how it got there, whether it is the residue from the previous night or whatever is immaterial. Incidentally, a quick one on the walk-around will register far more than 0.02 due to the residual alcohol in the mouth. That is why when you are breath tested (at least for motor vehicle offences - I haven't look at the regs for pilots) they have to wait at least 15 minutes before taking the breath sample.

You have no idea of the number of people convicted of being in excess of 0.05 the morning after a heavy night on the turps because there just hasn't been sufficient time to metabolise the alcohol out of their system. The last I heard of that was to allow for a metabolisation rate of 0.01 per hour but that figure is now over 10 years old. Use it at your peril.

If you want some other rules of thumb from that era then work on 0.028 per stubbie or can of full strength beer. It will take approximately 45 minutes for the full effect of the alcohol to take effect but your body will immediately start to metabolise the alcohol (which is after all, a poison) out of the body. Wine takes about 30 minutes to be absorbed and spirits about 15 minutes.

Metabolism rates vary hugely. The figure of 0.01 was the lowest recorded rate of metabolism up to about 10 years ago. I don't know whether it has changed or not since then. All of the stuff that people says will lower their blood/alcohol limit is a crock of ****. It is the metabolism rate that changes.

For the females who may read this be aware that for the same amount of alcohol consumed you will read higher than your male counterparts. You have more fat cells in your body makeup and alcohol is attracted to fat.

Finally, if anyone relies on the above to try and get a skin full and then to be under the limit to go flying they are a bleedin' idiot and deserve everything that may come their way.

[172driver]

AFAIK, most countries have a limit of somewhere around 0.02 because anything below that can come for any variety of sources (food, medication) that has nothing to do with alcohol consumption. Then there is also the accuracy of the testing equipment. How countries that have a 0,0 limit deal with this, I don't know.

[longrass]

And the wisdom of longy spelt it out in one sentence

[*Lancer*]

How does equipment inaccuracy and residual mouthwash affect P and L platers? :rolleyes:

[bentleg]

How does equipment inaccuracy and residual mouthwash affect P and L platers? :rolleyes:

The same way as it affects everyone else..........:ugh:

[629bus]

CX = bottle to 10hrs prior to sign on BUT also me free from alcohol

[VH-XXX]

The Victorian State government is contemplating the road alcohol limit to .02. We will probably see more of it in the future.

[PLovett]

The Victorian State government is contemplating the road alcohol limit to .02. We will probably see more of it in the future.

Most likely but it will have nothing to do with safety and all to do with revenue raising. :ugh: Incidentally, most Scandanavian countries, if not all, have an effective zero blood/alcohol limit with penal provisions for breach of the law.:eek:

[multi_engined]

Don't forget some people actually naturally produce alcohol in their system, that is why the limit is 0.02 and not 0.

[Kickatinalong]

You are still toooo young to get into a pub and you shouldn't be drinking anyhow. I may have moved to Qld but I still remember my ex-students and watch out for them.
Kickatinalong:=:=:=

[PA39]

:\ Jesus! .02!! You'd be pissed on the f**T from a brewery horse!! How bloody ridiculous, why not have zero tolerance as in trucks.....02 Thank Christ I'm out of aviation these days, it just gets worse doesn't it!

[soseg]

Incidentally, most Scandanavian countries, if not all, have an effective zero blood/alcohol limit with penal provisions for breach of the law.
True... however head south a little bit into some of those Slavic countries and the permitted alcohol limits are like 0.2... and if you get caught over the limit? ...well... a slap on the wrist in comparison to other places...

[*Lancer*]

Thanks bentleg.

My point is that if the 0.02 is an 'allowance' due to equipment inaccuracy and residual/natural alcohol etc, how can 0.00 be set as a limit?

[ZappBrannigan]

I absolutely hate this .02 rubbish. Yes, that figure is due to equipment accuracy, calibration, etc. etc. - but we should NOT be plastering it all over posters and the garbage that CASA sends out to us.

It gives people the false impression (including pax who, especially in the GA world, are frequently in the same areas these 0.02 posters are displayed) that in aviation, a 0.02 BAC is acceptable - i.e. you can have a beer with lunch, wait an hour to be sure, then go and fly a plane.

The advertising and regulations should indicate ZERO as the limit - and of course, the 0.02 tolerance will be allowed for when testing. My point being, pilots and the public don't have to know about the tolerance - only the persons conducting the testing.

My point is that if the 0.02 is an 'allowance' due to equipment inaccuracy and residual/natural alcohol etc, how can 0.00 be set as a limit?

0.00 is the limit. 0.02 is what you'll get away with after tolerances are applied. Unfortnately, all the badly worded advertising indicates 0.02 is the limit.

[*Lancer*]

What happens to P-platers with 0.02?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

ZappBrannigan (http://www.pprune.org/members/162654-zappbrannigan), I couldn't agree more. It's laughable, they plaster some big font suggesting a hard-core, strict and unwaivering notion... and then underline the idea that hey, it's ok to have a bit in your system.

I agree with the .02 being built into the legislation to account for a bit of error or introduce a smidge of grace but it's just the wrong wrong message to the public, the impressionable and the stupid.

FRQ CB

[Tinstaafl]

Rules are more restrictive than lots of people think. The basic rule states that the pilot must be under no deleterious effect as the result of consuming anything (my emphasis). It then imposes a further limitation of 8 hours for the special case of alcohol consumption.

So, anything you consume that leaves you impaired in some way is verboten. Even if it doesn't leave you impaired, no matter what the quantity or intervening period, in the case of alcohol you must have at least an 8 hour gap. More if hungover or otherwise not up to speed until such time you're back to your 'well' self, as per the basic rule.

[trashie]

By the way, if you register.02 you can be charged, as the limit is "less than 02".