As PIC, what is your action if......

[airman13]

one pax wants to give up to the flight, and you are taxiing already to the departure rwy

[Pugilistic Animus]

Rainboe where are you?

:E

[suninmyeyes]

As noone has answered so far I will have a go.

In our airline this is covered in the legal part of the command training course. The passenger has entered a contract with the airline to fly him from A to B. The airline are carrying out their side of the deal. To return to the gate would delay the flight and the other passengers. The stand may now be occupied. The passenger's baggage, if he had any, would have to be located and offloaded. At a busy airport with a widebodied aircraft this could be a delay of over an hour and a considerable cost.

The Captain is perfectly in his right to continue. I have had a nervous passenger want to get off before takeoff and have been back to discuss it with the passenger and discuss the consequences of going back to the gate. It becomes difficult when the aircraft is delayed considerably due to a very lengthy slot or if the temperature in the passenger cabin becomes uncomfortable. Each situation has to be judged on its own merits.But in reply to the original question if someone has just changed their mind about travelling it is too late.

[airman13]

thanks suninmyeyes

that s why I asked,because of many opinions in respect of this situation. I will come back to stand if the involved pax is ill or has suffered a panic attack or so....

[Scott Diamond]

Please Rainboe!! :E

[mercurydancer]

A passenger having a panic attack is ill by definition. They dont want to have a panic attack and its largely involuntary.

For a passenger who is on the aircraft when it is taxiing and wants to take another course and isnt ill by any definition its too late. The process has started of getting him from his point of embarkation to his destination. Imagine a passenger pointing out a city in the distance during flight and saying - " I want to land there, its closer to my home" .............If the passenger wants to make a fuss then its they who endanger the aircraft and should be dealt with as such. I can recall several passengers on the same flight as me whose behaviour was disgraceful. In the average public house it would have resulted in them getting a good slapping but because its on an aircraft we depend on the cabin crew to deal with it.

[protectthehornet]

in your initial post, you didn't mention the passenger was ill. an ill passenger is a good reason to return to the gate.

a passenger who ''wants off'' may be nuts, sick, a jerk, or maybe knows a bomb is on the plane.

better to be at the gate, an hour late, than to find a problem in flight

[411A]

For a passenger who is on the aircraft when it is taxiing and wants to take another course and isnt ill by any definition its too late. The process has started of getting him from his point of embarkation to his destination.
Yup.
Unless in physical distress, he/she is to be cuffed, and deposited in the lower galley, forthwith.
Once there, shown the grub on order.
If this doesn't slow 'em down, nothing will.:}

Now...we did have an incident last Hajj, wherein one pax objected to their baggage being left behind (sorry dear, no space:{tough luck) and...they still might be in jail in Saudi, due to the problems caused.
Saudi police marched on, malcontent pax frog-marched off...end of story.:}:E

[Brian Abraham]

SLF on flight out of DBX. Had not taxied a couple of hundred yards and came to a stop. Sat idling for a good 20 minutes or so, then back to the ramp, shutdown, off load one pax, refuel and away again. Told young lass sick, she looked OK on boarding. Horses for courses.

[galaxy flyer]

411A

I wondered how the L-1011 would get in here, but never thought of it as a brig!

GF

[arem]

Since the flight deck was so spacious , it was known as the Tritanic by some

[Rainboe]

OK, you insisted! Rainboe's baccckkk!

What is this nonsense about offloading someone because they changed their mind? 'Only an hour late'? Can you imagine 400 people on a 747, having to negotiate a gate to return to, having to get full groundstaff plus unloading equipment installed at the gate, get holds open, start unloading containers one by one, rummage through them looking for a single baggage tag? Then reload, get new ATC clearance, possibly top up fuel, and try again...after hours of delay? Then, because of the disruption, what are you going to do when someone else, disturbed by all this commotion, then decides that they are panic striken and tell you you cannot leave and they must get off! Insanity! So Mr. Captain, what are you then going to do, do it all again and let them off and hunt for their bags, or make them travel? IF you are going to then make them travel, why did you not make the first person travel? If need be, I would be kind and have them restrained so they then have no choice. Their panic would not last longer than the After Takeoff

This needs joined-up thinking, rather than pandering to what is considered an individual's 'human rights'! Sorry, but an individual's 'human rights' to get off do not overide the rights of the other 400 or so other passengers to continue their journey as scheduled and agreed in their travel contract. I always go back and see these people- such situations call for firm control. They have entered into a contract and bought a ticket. Nobody can claim 'kidnapping' or that nonsense. If need be, I would be kind and have them restrained so they then have no choice. Their panic would not last longer than the After Takeoff Checklist, then they would become a normal human being again.

Hint- it helps to volubly let the surrounding passengers know the consequences of such a return and the likely delay that will ensue to their journey! A technique I have found extremely effective.

[ArthurBorges]

Tritanic and Tristarasaurus Rex are lovely new words for me. In a spirit of reconciliation, I'd dare merge the two into Trtanasaurus Rex.

If one gets legal, the ticket is a contract, so both parties have to "perform": carrier has to get SLF from A to B; SLF has to let itself be moved from A to B.

Then there's intuition. It was nice to see Puglilistic Animus ask, out of character for his pseudo), "where are you?" For a given issue in one place, you call in the anti-terrorist unit and in the next place, you just kick out the door and party pooper in the same gesture.

Security, yes? It's great when it works, but it looks awfully ridiculous when applied with strict disregard for common sense and intuition.

[BOAC]

You'll all need to dig into PPrune but I'm pretty sure this came up a few years back and I seem to recall a legal opinion was that the Captain could be found guilty of 'unlawful detention' or some similar charge. (I'd take the risk:))

[powerstall]

If that's the case and he charges me with illegal detention, i'll counter charge him with illegal entry. :ok:

But hey, he voluntarily put himself in the aircraft in the first place. :ok:

[hector]

If need be, I would be kind and have them restrained

A bit disappointed there; I thought Rainboe was going to say "....and have them put down.": :E

[Rainboe]

I object! That is a little extreme for nervous passengers! There is a spark of kindness in me........somewhere. Not sure where! We are talking about a drop in standards, people with mullets, who travel in singlets, flip flops, and those running shorts with wide open flappy bits so that looking from the side (if you should be so unfortunate as to glance their way involuntarily), you are treated to the unedifying sight of their pork sausage and long hairy legs. Yes, they get packed and check in and get on a plane like that! The poor cabin crew, who have spent ages slapping slap on and making their hair nice and looking really smart in a clean uniform then have to actually serve them and call them 'Sir'! And their obese fake blonde partners have metallic facial jewelry and folds of lard-like flabby arms and white, bare midriffs spilling out asunder, all covered with tattoes- they have to be called 'Madam'! And the only interest is in alcohol, and lots of it.
It seems so unfair to foister them on foreigners to spend a week vomiting and shouting up their High Streets, but if they have got £119 to flash, who are we to argue?
I fly smart people now who get dressed up for flying and have a wonderful attitude. As a result, they get top class treatment all the way through. What a difference!

[Scott Diamond]

You, sir, should write a book :D:D:E

[Rainboe]

They are already in a comic! Viz has drawings of the grockles. Thank goodness shell suits have gone out of fashion. I have actually seen whole families in matching family shell suits! I suppose it makes it easier not to lose them when they travel with 5 generations (the youngest 3 generations being below 30 years of age). Praise God (who doesn't exist) for the flight deck door- locked! Sometimes one had an irresistable involuntary urge to apologise to the foreign immigration departments, but one has to eat.

[Airbus Girl]

Have had a passenger tell us he wanted to get off, just before we shut the doors. We had a slot. His reason? his girlfriend hadn't made the flight. We told him it wasn't possible for him to get off at this point (well, we thought it was worth a bluff as otherwise we'd have a big delay whilst we found his bag and got a new slot). His reaction? "Oh ok then" and he went and sat back down!!

If the person was mad or ill then would probably off-load. Otherwise no way.

[BOAC]

Found it! (http://www.pprune.org/questions/340529-when-passengers-ask-disembark-after-rto.html) This rumbled back and forth between lawyers, Railways Act and Human Rights with no real conclusion. Its all part of the job really. A qualified legal opinion would be 'of interest' - but would probably not change my actions.:)

[I Just Drive]

Everybody has the right to change their minds and we arn't driving prison ships. If its been explained to said punter about the ramifications and they still want to get off before getting airborne, then they have to be allowed off.

If a pax who said they wanted to get off was refused and then had a panic attack airborne, i'd say they would be well within their rights to sue the skipper to kingdom come.

[Tee Emm]

We take these utter plonkers and grockles abroad

Hand goes up at the back of the Pprune class.. "'S'cuse me Sir. Wot's a Grockle?" - can't find it in me Aussie dictionary. Is it the Brit equivalent of a Drongo?

[Rainboe]

Drongo it is!
I Just Fly- you are Ryanair? Very few bags on small aeroplanes? Easy to get off and sort the problem. Not so easy in a 747!

We are dealing with people who may make a bomb hoax call if they are running late for their flight! But when someone buys a ticket for a flight and thus enters into a contract with the airline for carriage, I believe they do not have a leg to stand on if they should try to claim kidnapping or unlawful detention should they change their mind and decide that the runes are telling them not to go. I have yet to hear of anybody pressing ahead and risking ALL they own on trying this in law in a High Court! So it really is a chestnut trying to claim it is a problem.

[Old Smokey]

I COMPLETELY agree with everything that Rainboe has said on this thread, that is how it should be in a perfect world. But it isn't..............:confused:

In at least one country, Australia, or on board any Australian registered aircraft, ANY passenger has the right to be disembarked (should be disemboweled) up to the point of Brakes Release for Takeoff. This is in spite of all of the numerous security problems and the inconvenience to all parties if they should wish to do so. Perhaps other countries have similar rules.

This is not the common-sense point of view put across by Rainboe (with which I concur), it is the LEGAL position, and we have to live with it.:ugh:

PS : This isn't in any of the Aviation rule books, it's a part of Common Law.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[Rainboe]

That makes as much sense to me as getting on a bus and then demanding to be taken to your home, not the bus stop, or you will claim 'kidnapping', or 'unlawful detention'. To do so, those people would have to prove their case at possibly bankruptable costs if they lose. Despite all the talk about these alleged 'human rights', I don't think many people would dare test the case. They formed a contract for transport with the airline of their own free will by purchasing a ticket. They boarded the aircraft with the intention to traveling to the agreed destination. They then changed their mind.
This excessive pandering to peoples' whims will put us all out of a job! It only focuses on the needs of an extreme minority which apparently override the needs and rights of the great majority to travel unencumbered and unrestrained according to their contract with the airline.
Brutal though it may be thought to be, but I would be inclined to announce on the Public Address that 'the passenger in seat 21J has decided that he wishes to leave the aircraft at this stage after all! Because of the need to remove his bags, we are likely to experience a delay that could be several hours. We may have to have a crew change which will delay us into the curfew, so we may not be able to depart until some time tomorrow. Have a nice day now!'- and leave the other passengers to sort it out!

[Pugilistic Animus]

YouTube - Airplane! Slap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_GJkKMPHxw&feature=related)

I just could NOT resist:}

PA:}

[Old Smokey]

I'm glad that you could not resist Pugilistic Animus, I think that that small clip says it all!!:ok::ok:

My only problem is that I could not identify Rainboe, 411A or myself in the queue of assailants.:}

(I still completely agree with you Rainboe, but the law (particularly Australian law), is an ASS.:mad:

Regards,

Old Smokey

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I had this a year or so back when se diverted and several pax wanted to get off as it was closer to home than our destination.

It was pointed out that if they got off

1. They had broken the terms of the general conditions of carriage, (to be taken to their destination) and are liable for any costs incurred. These would include delayed flight costs, ad-hoc baggage, handling and fuel service etc. Likely to be several hundred pounds

2. As we were on a remote with no ground agents, they would probably be arrested by the the police for being in an RZ without good reason, or ID.

3. If the police didn't get them, the elf and safety security would for not wearing a securly fastened high-visibility jacket!

As it was they did all get off as the company put on buses as the destination remaind closed.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

That makes as much sense to me as getting on a bus and then demanding to be taken to your home, not the bus stop, or you will claim 'kidnapping', or 'unlawful detention'.

Not quite - it's more like demanding to be let off at any point on the scheduled route - the corner most convenient for you, basically - rather than at your house.

I'm still not aware of any bus company that would let you do so - the local company here run a scheme where ladies can be let off between stops at night for safety reasons (walking home in the dark etc.) but even then it states explicitly it's the driver's call as to where exactly the bus can stop, not the passenger. Most of the time they have a very strict on or off at marked stops only.

I wonder if Australian buses are unlimited hop on-hop off or if they enforce the use of bus stops only?

(And I do agree, the idea of letting someone off on a whim is mad)

[411A]

My only problem is that I could not identify Rainboe, 411A ...
Dunno about Rainboe, however...411A sends bigger/larger
folks back to deal with these ahhhh, problems..:}
Howsomever, I take responsibility, and...have never been questioned.
May it continue...always.:ok:
My guy is Harry Truman (for those that din't know..a US President)..who said..."the buck stops HERE."

Harry was RIGHT.

[Brian Abraham]

ANY passenger has the right to be disembarked (should be disemboweled) up to the point of Brakes Release for Takeoff
Could the problem not be solved by a rolling take off? We released the brakes at gate push your Honour. ;)