My dream to be an aircraft engineer

[Dani86]

Hi everyone,

I need your help now, im 23 and it has always been my dream to be an aircraft engineer. I spent four years at college and the last year and half working for an airline for free, just to get maintenance experience. I dont think im some kind of hotshot engineer just because ive been to college or done abit of experience, and i know ive just began to scrape the edge of knowledge needed for this job. But i love what i do and its starting to worry me now as i have not gained employment through an apprenticeship. The airline i do my work ex for are small compared to the gigantic airlines about and are already over staffed, and i goty glowing reference from them. So im appealing to all experienced engineers to guide me, i need help, what else can i do. i am willing to do anything even relocate to a different country.

Thanks for reading

[Dani86]

Does anybody know if Thomson are taking on apprentices this year, for engineering.?

[punk666]

Monarch & Virgin do apprenticehips but im not sure if there still doing them.

What was you doing at college may I ask? May be you should consider paying to do your Jar 66B1 license but EASA is coming into play soon so may be it will be different.

Im not an engineer but my father is and I did a bit of engineering at college before I went off and started pilot training.

[MVE]

Is there not an engineering specific forum you can enquire on? You might get more response.....best of luck:ok:

[PAPI-74]

Try the Forces or Marshall Aerospace; everyone else is cutting back as far as I know, but that will change soon enough.

Marshall Aerospace - Apprenticeships (http://www.marshallaerospace.com/apprenticeships.php)
Bristow (http://www.bristowgroup.com/careers/airlogjobs.php)
Job categories - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/jobcategories.cfm)

Keep plugging away

[wangus]

I know nothing about this side of things, BUT:
Have you been in touch with SRT Technics (I think?!?) at Gatwick? When I dispatched there, they were always extremely busy, overworked, etc. I cannot remember the other engineering group I used to see racing around the airfield, but will try to find out. Presumably you've spoken to Storm. (This may be as annoying to you as it is to me when my parents say surely somebody is recruiting low hour pilots. If so, sorry. Just thoughts.)
Just a thought after seeing Papi's comment. A relation of mine is working on the Red Arrows, as an apprentice, £17000 salary so far, no experience, no education. I wonder if you could queue jump with your experience??

[grababadger]

Hey,

Im a B1 licensed aircraft engineer and ive worked both as a contractor and a permanent employee, ive worked for a selection of airlines.

If you want give me a pm and maybe we could speak on the phone, i would be more than happy to give advice.

[Bodjit]

Hi Dani, must say its nice to see someone so enthusiastic.......

And now for the honest appraisal of the poor and sorry state of the aircraft maint industry in uk at the min, B1/B2 myself been doing this for 20 odd years and havent seen it as bad as this for a long time...

Not just talking about the recent turndown which last year had a very dramatic effect as you probably know. Its just getting very difficult to get along now. Training costs are absolutely astronomical (circa 10k all in per type to approval with course/living/accm/OT/lost earnings if youre a conny), even for the big companies which is mostly why they all want somone who is trained and ready to go. Unfortunately no-one is willing to train anyone.

Increasing red tape from the Campaign Against Aviation on behalf of our European lords is strangling everyone. Its getting more difficult to find work as a conny these days although things are picking up, check out aviation jobsearch and see how many positions there are against people chasing them.

If you choose to be a conny expect to be treated like sh*t by 95% of the agencies who will lie to you, not pay you, put you forward for work that isnt there, phoning you when youre on the way to a job to say the rate has gone down... will you still do it? or worse the job has gone...and generally shark you at every possible occasion. Also expect to be treated the same by most employers if you get a position, it will be in sharp contrast to the way aircrew are treated.....

Its my humble opinion that the engineering business in the UK is over..... the position of engineer no longer commands any respect from most portions of the aircraft world and its standing and esteem have been eroded over time, sad but true and sadly the sooner I can find someway into another industry the better.... I'm addressing this as we speak....

Sorry if it wasnt what you wanted to hear but its straight from the heart mate. That said I would advise you to give it your best shot cos its a fantastic job and I've enjoyed nearly every day, I just can't see any long term future with any reasonable security......

Good luck anyway

Bodjit

Oh and try Aircraft Engineers Bulletin Board - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.airmech.co.uk), talk to fenestron ....... he'll point you in the right direction :ok:

[allosaurus]

sorry dani,have to agree with everything bodjit writes.lot of engs hanging on to jobs by fingertips.heard to day large uk MRO sacked its Maint Director and possible "important annoucements" to base Maint personnel early next week.you,ve picked the worst time to try and fnd a job.Sorry. Nobody hiring just firing.

[Dani86]

Thanks everyone for the replys,

i keep applying for apprenticeships but they just say im over qualified, Apparently they rely on government funding and if you have anything over average grades they wont fund you, pathetic, i paid good money to do course at college to give me an advantage or a good foundation of skills to start an apprenticeship and i get penalised. then you get the idiots that dont know how to read an ammeter and dont know the difference between an screwdriver and a torque wrench that get on apprenticeships cause there girlfriends uncle, sisters,father in law is a manager of an airline. But thats life and i will persevere, because how ever long i wait it will be worth it in the long run, if my past experience is anything to go by, i will love it.

[Bus429]

Dani,
I'm afraid - IMHO - that academia has stolen some sort of march on the maintenance training scheme. I spoke recently with someone whose background is similar to yours: college or uni and a basic rating and his situation is similar to yours = no job. After your college or uni, you are expected to move into industry to gain experience. In the maintenance industry, that is, frankly, @rse about face; experience - and a book full of ratings - is what the AMOs want. Given the choice of a 50 year old with years of experience but no aviation related academic qualification or a 23 year old with the opposite, guess who will probably get the job? I know lots of guys and girls who have attended degree course after working for years in the maintenance industry as a change in career path or for personal satisfaction; no problem with that. I did a great 4 year apprenticeship with MAEL in the 70s: block release college and a couple of LWTR courses included. Bring the traditional apprenticeship back. :ok:

[Dani86]

i understand your point Bus429 but im not applying for jobs that require mass amounts of experience, im starting right at the bottom i did the quals to give me a good foundation for when i start an apprenticeship. same with the work ex, im working for free just to get experience, i didnt come out of college after four years and think just applying for any AME job. I understand that experience is everything.

[Dodo56]

Dani the foot in the door is the hardest to get and if you already have time on the spanners you stand a good chance of being picked up as a connie or applying for any mech jobs that come up. As some have said it's not a very glamorous ladder at first and it may not be all it was at the top either but if it wasn't a fundamentally satisfying job we wouldn't be doing it.

As a connie you will have the track record to be considered for jobs as they do arise and once in an airline/MRO you have the chance to put in for the formal training and exams. If all else fails, if you're working and gaining the 5 years you need you can be self studying for the examined modules.

[hugel]

Just to be certain, you do mean an aircraft engineer (fix, maintain,service,support) as opposed to an aerospace engineer (aircraft and system concept,design,develop,test) ? Although there is overlap, my passion is for the design side...

hugel

[Dani86]

hi hugel,

i hope to be a maintenance engineer, as for being a connie that would be good but id rather do an apprenticeship to get the proper training and experience this role deserves in order to do the job affectively.

[400_Hertz]

Your dream to be an aircraft technician was started off in the wrong way, where did you get advice to take the pathway you chose? I assume you were told this by your school career advisor. You did not ask any apprentice I know as they would all tell you a much different story illustrated by the posts above.

What are they going to teach you on a 3 or 4 year Modern Apprenticeship today that you have not covered already on your 4 year college course? Where were your Part-66 modular course exam passes? Your age now puts you outside the primary UK funding range for most sponsorship (it's a painful but true fact). Unfortunately, your current position is at a distinct disadvantage to that of someone who had taken the direct route to an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship all those years ago, and they would probably be on a decent salary and a career taking off into the blue yonder.

You should think of ways of recovering your position, perhaps improving you text in these posts might go some way to help you start. Choose your words carefully in your CV and covering letter or Email, this will be your only contact with some employers. Highlighting specific areas of practical work would be another good idea. It could be that you might be considered for a mature apprentice or trainee course. If you wish to put yourself above the other applicants for an apprentice course or similar, I would advise that you do a lot of research into Part-66 EASA licensing and the full aviation legislative system, especially for the UK CAA, this is free to do but often overlooked by many students. For a start, you could demonstrate this over the telelphone or interview, it shows you are serious.

Make sure that any Email contact with employers is spell-checked twice and contains no errors. For goodness sake, drop the 'i' in your written text. I hope that you kept a CAP 741 log book (or similar) with correctly annotated signatures from your short experience, this will be very useful to you in gaining employment and getting your license in the future. Don't forget that there are helicopters in aviation as well, this could lead you to a job in a smaller company, perhaps more local to you.

You could throw all your eggs now into doing a aviation degree course, but this will not lead to a job in aircraft maintenance as a technician, and you would become one of the many seeking the elusive 'design' job idea planted into the heads of young students from an early age.

The above is something to read or ignore, I'll let you make the choice.

[Dani86]

when i left school apprenticeships were a thing of the past, and i did do my research when i left school for apprenticeships and alot of companies dropped there training schemes and it was only until i was half way through my course the government had wanted to jump start the apprenticeship schemes again. i may have been advised properly when i left school if any of the airlines had bothered to reply to any of my letters or emails, the only bit of external information i found was when i went to the RAF careers and they said they were one of the few people that offered apprenticeships then.
And also make no mistake, i am not naive, i have researched the in and outs of licensing and also have a cap 147 log book complete with signatures, and good references from numerous engineers and the company itself. Not bad for someone that works for free!!

The college course was all that was available to me at the time, so i had to do it rather the ignore my chosen career path, it wasnt a matter of starting off in the wrong way, it was a matter of starting off., dont you think i wish i had done an apprenticeship, otherwise i would have not have been in this situation.

also looking at Bodjit statement again he has highlighted my point

"no one is willing to train anyone."

[400_Hertz]

Yes, we all wish we could turn the clock back. There are companies out there trying to make a difference with training for young people. The industry is not dead, I can look around at many on £30K, £40K, £50K, £60K salaries and above driving nice cars, enjoying their work and thanking their training (if they are really honest) for their situation.

I can also look not too far and find someone bitter and twisted with an axe to grind, if I look hard enough.

You sound like a good guy, don't bother getting bitter like some, get your act together, look further afield and open your eyes and ears. Keep positive.

I'm beginning to get used to your 'i's.

[ericferret]

We have an engineer your age who completed a short EASA 147 course with a view to getting an A licence. He has been here almost a year and we are looking at getting the forms filled in for his application. Yes he has to go on from there for the B but it's not a bad route and having been sceptical I now believe this not a bad way to do things.

[400_Hertz]

Ferret Eric speaks sense, too many folks look down their noses at the A license, but they miss the fact that it puts you well on the ladder to success. Even better if you can do the Part-147 short course of 6/7 months as this reduces your experience needed to just 1 year. Holding the A should reduce your experience for Cat B as well. It's win win.

[Capot]

The approved Part 147 Cat A course is 800 hours; a typical approved course is 859 hours, with 490 theory, 252 practical and 117 OJT (ie structured training OJT, not hanging about in a hangar). This particular course would be accomplished in 24 working weeks. The extra hours are to allow for student absence and sickness.

Work experience acquired while using an A licence could count towards the work experience requirement for a B licence, if it was relevant, but I'm not certain that an A licence holder has a reduced work experience requirement for a B licence.

It should be possible to gain 3 years work experience as an A licence holder while getting the Modules for the B Licence. The Practical requirements could be covered in the same period.

By definition the work experience required for a B licence is carried out before the licence can be issued, and experience gained as an A licence holder is going to be more useful, probably, than experienced gained as an unlicensed mechanic.

As you say, going for an A licence and then B is a good route for some.


Edit: The requirement for work experience, moving from A1 to B1.1, is 2 years. Doing the B1.1 from scratch would need longer (3 years) if you do not do the full approved 2-year course. So it is true to say that having an A1 licence reduces the work experience requirement for the B1.1 licence, except in the unlikely case that the A licence holder does a full-time 2-year course for the B1.1 licence, when 2 years experience are needed instead of 3.
Incidentally, an A Licence holder can miss a few sections of the Module 7 and Module 10 of the B1.1 Modules, so there's another (very) small advantage!

[400_Hertz]

I'm impressed Capot, nice to know there are some here who speak sense and know their onions as well as their EC2042/2003 & the ELGD (although it's not legal).

http://www.helitavia.com/smilies/readpaper.gif

[ShaunLanc]

Ever thought about the RAF? Depends what your looking for but you'll be working on some awesome machines with the option of travel and a nice pension. Just a thought

[HubNuts]

Hi dani86, i totally understand where you are coming from and empathize with your situation, as i too took a change in career paths later on in my mid too late twenties and because of my age was not eligible for any grants/funding to assist with my studies.

Very frustrating for people wanting too better themselves, and some individuals in the past have told me,"I should have decided on what i wanted too do along time ago", but unfortunately we are not all blessed with school teachers that have their pupils best interests at heart, i wanted too work with aircraft from a young age but ended up doing something totally different, but that said that is all in the past.

All i can say is do not give up, i found studying for my licence financially stressful and challenging, i had no help from family or the banks (as the bank could not understand the concept of people maintaining aircraft, so turned down my career development loan, thankyou Barclays.)

It will not be easy by no means, but if you are determined too do it then you will suceed, if i can make it then anybody else with the right frame of mind can, develop a plan of action, formulate costs involved, get a part time job, week-ends for obvious reasons of studying in the week, and expect to have the social life of a hibernating shrew.

And most importantly of all, expect nothing, so that whatever comes your way will be an added bonus, whether it will be financial/educational.

Alot of people in this industry have worked their socks off too get here, and that makes us all more resilient, it is just bad timing that the industry is going through a severe correction at present,but as like most things in life, the cycle when begin too turn and regenerate, but WHEN is the 64 million dollar question.

All i can say is,alot of people including myself have gotten through too the bitter end,so develop your plan of action and implement it, some people do get bitter in this industry because companies do treat their staff unfairly, but that said i personally think it is the most rewarding career i am working within, i thoroughly enjoy what i do, and some of the people you meet on your travels will entertain you with their experiences within the industry.

And remember the aviation world is a very small one, so expect to bump into old friends from time to time.

I wish you all the best.

[Rusty Trombone]

With reference to your post, never ever give up hope etc and try to fulfill your dreams. I started as a Ground Support Mechanic, Aircraft Mechanic, Flight Engineer and now Senior First Officer/Chief Engineer.

It can be done etc and its not an easy road, know your basic mechanics, Learn a trade and become versatile. Try not to upset too many people as its a small world.

Send me a PM I can maybe couch you in some areas I know a lot of people and recently got 2 18 year old 4 year fixed courses with EASA 66 at the end.

[blu222]

Hi Dani86

I understand the situation that you are in at the moment. I really appreciate how difficult it is setting off in an industry such as this. I am in a similar situation to yourself. I have also worked for no salary over the past year in an organisation gaining "on the tools" experience. I must say I have really enjoyed my time learning this way. It was a fantastic opportunity and I have enjoyed every minute of it. (I will choose this opportunity to say thanks to the guys that have put so much effort in, as I know they are enthusiastic readers of this website!)

I studied engineering when I was at school/college and I thought it was a great way of learning the basics. I believe it's a good foundation to start learning for a career in engineering. I then studied for the Part 66 modules and I am currently working towards applying for an A Licence with ambitions to be a full B2 sometime in the future. I will say now that I don't believe I am a hotshot engineer either. I want to work my way up and prove my worth too. I also agree that experience is one of the most important criteria for this job. But I do believe that a combination of the engineering foundation via academia as well as "on the tools" experience goes hand in hand.

Due to the current economic downturn, we are all quite aware of the current job market. It is such a shame that the downturn has affected the aviation industry quite so seriously. As I am regularly told, now is the worst time to have chosen to start a career in what is already a difficult industry to get into! But I don't think anyone predicted this would of happened! := If I did, I wouldn't of started when I did!
Which leaves you with the option of trying to join an apprenticeship. I have also applied for some with the same response of being too over qualified! It is difficult to please all employers.

If I was to pass on any advice that was said to me, it would be to keep trying. Positivity and enthusiasm is everything. I work every minute I can gaining experience as I am particularly passionate about this job and I am determined to better myself. You learn something new everyday. As famously said in my workplace, "everyone deserves a break". And I am sure your efforts will eventually pay off. It's just now may not be the time for us.

One thing I should of got more experience in was making the tea. :ok: I am rubbish at that. Got to start somewhere! :)

[starbuck123]

Reading through this topic has proved very useful as this is something ive been thinking of a while. Im in a slightly different situation where i would have to totally retrain as i am currently a senior technical analyst in IT. Ive been looking at doing either one of these

Marshall Aerospace - Adult Re-training (http://www.marshallaerospace.com/adultretraining.php)
or

IR PART-66 (http://www.part66.co.uk/content/public/part66/default.asp) (self study)

Is this is the best route to take?

Thanks

[blu222]

Hi Starbuck123

I don't know if you have spoken to Marshall Aerospace already if you are looking to start this year but I was told they are not running the Adult Re-training program due to not enough applicants! Which I find really hard to believe in this current climate! I am not sure of your age but as for other apprenticeships, you may not fall within the age bracket. You may also be too overqualified! Hence why I looked at the Adult Re-training program.

As for the self study route, unless you have previous aircraft experience such as a Military background, starting off might prove to be difficult. Especially at the moment as many people trying to start a career are having to work for free to make an impression. The disadvantage in your situation is that being a senior technical analyst I should imagine is a well paid job! You would probably take a huge cut in salary while retraining and starting off. I really think there is no stability at the moment especially when it comes to job security as well. A case in point is the unfortunate demise of the SR Technics Diamond Hangar at Stansted.

I can only speak from the frontline of my personal experience over the past year or so. As I previously mentioned to Dani86, all of this efforts will eventually pay off but as for the near future, it certainly looks bleak.

It's a real disappointment. :{

[ExMaintainer]

I walked away in the dark ages, so others have much better tech info than i. we used to use valves then, remember them?

But, 2 things i suggest:-

don't do the free work thing. you are not doing yourself or anyone else any good. you will come to realise in this in time.

Also, it is always easier to find work when you are employed, not sure why, just is. then you can network and steer towards your goal. :)

Good luck.

[BRISOLBOY]

There are many worthwhile sites around for engineers. A not so well known but useful which has many links to other sites is http://amengineer.webs.com/ (http://amengineer.webs.com/)

[flame_bringer]

Im sorry to say that bro but i'd have to agree with 400_hertz's first post .
you picked the absolute wrong path right from the start and i believe your qualification only authorizes you to go for designer level or careers as such .
I can feel from the way you talk that you're quite an intelligent person and you're quite keen to work . alas you made a mistake .
So what to do now, make it up , carry on plugging away and apply for an A license and then you'll definitely find a job , then work for the required amount of time in a part 145 approved organisation ( i believe in the uk they're all part 145 approved ) and then apply for an exemption off the basic training curriculum since you already hold a degree thats almost of equivalent standard and then go straight for the CAA exams and get your b2 or b1 whatever suits your preference .
Then im pretty sure that your situation will improve a big much and you'll have a better opportunity to be hired.If not in your country you have all over the world !!
I wish you the best of luck bro!

[smudgethecat]

God help us,no wonder the industry is totally boloxed in this country people being prepared work for zilch for the privilige of getting skydrol in your eyes and a piece of locking wire through your finger,.... amazing

[blu222]

Smudgethecat

With respect, in your opinion, what is the best method of getting a "foot in the door"?

Many people didn't on purposely choose to start a career at this time foreseeing a economic downturn. As previously stated, this industry is notoriously difficult to become part of. I can't see how you can prove your worth without showing a company your enthusiasm or professionalism. From what I have found, the only way you can have this opportunity is by offering your services for free. In some respects it is beneficial for yourself as well as the company. It obviously could not be a long term choice but I can not see other ways of gaining that vital experience that is required.

I can not speak for every person who desires to be a Mechanic or Technician because it would be unfair to guess their skills or knowledge. As some may not be destined for this industry. With respect, I think it would surely be unfair to suggest that the nature of the industry has been, as you put it, "boloxed" in this country because people want to have a good career for the rest of their life. It is very easy for some to say disheartening comments towards others because they have already "made it" in their career. There is no reason to say people have worked any less than others to be where they are. They just deserve a break or at least one chance. Everyone was in the same position once before.

[simonchowder]

People did not i suspect show much interest in marshals scheme to retrain due to the derisory salaries marshals pay, your better off at tescoes or picking turnips

I would however urge anyone thinking of changing careers to think very carefuly about aircraft maintenance ,the industry is in a severe downturn and the market is awash with well qualified engineers and mechanics , i was only talking to someone at monarch today and he informed and they are sacking over 50 per cent of their base staff due to lack of third party work , couple that with the lay offs at SR technics at STN and DUB and your talking hundreds of people from two companies alone, it wil be a long long time before these people are absorbed in the market, so if your a wannabie hoping to break into the industry unlessyour very lucky your going to have a very long wait im afraid

[Dani86]

cheers for that reply blu 222 thats EXACTLY how i feel!!!!!

[blu222]

:) No problem. I guess the key to remember is that there are others in the same situation. The answer may be in how you approach the problem with enthusiasm and determination to succeed.

Keep fighting. We will get there! :ok: