BEagle

[cheapseat]

You said:

RETENTION INCENTIVES FOR NON-OFFICER AIRCREW ARE INDEED BEING FORMULATED!

Sorry to shout, but please rest assured that you are NOT being shafted. They simply can't do everything at once and this first announcement is to target areas where manning levels are the most critical!

I said

substantiate 'most critical'. Facts please. . .Come on Beags, or any one else for that matter; ‘cos I feel a real tit not being able to work it out.

[Ginger Beer]

They have promised us for the best part of a year now that we would ALL know by the end of 2001, ooh er then early 2002.

Not once did the lying, cheating, spineless, goal post moving "Airships" tell us that the rear crew NCO's would not be getting a financial incentive at the same time as the "O's". They must have known for months and elected to say nothing.

Screw'em

AAC NCO types are included, why not us as PROMISED.

[Muff Coupling]

Cheaps,

According to the findings by the ARRWG... ."Furthermore the recommendations are targeted to resolve retention difficulties and there is no currently no retention problem with Airman Aircrew; where recruitment is an issue, this will be addressed seperately"

However, they then state "...ALMs will fall into manning balance within 3-4 yrs, but SHORTFALLS remain in other Airman Aircrew cadres, this is being addressed by a vigorous recruiting campaign" . .Apparently the incentive is to bombard you with glossy posters, a web site for AEOps (MS Nimrod Flt Sim 2002!)and the title of WIZZOS!! pep talk on the critical role you all play and a chance to play with ASTOR.

Sounds like a cracking package to me!

Hope this helps! it sure as hell doesnt add up to me. Looks like they are saying you get no dosh because no one is PVRing and no one wants to be NCO Aircrew...giz us a job mate!!

[cheapseat]

I am a poor, little man, what, pray tell, could ARRWG be?

[Ginger Beer]

AIRCREW RETENTION REVIEW WORKING GROUP, me thinks

[cheapseat]

So what is there that will be rattled of as the next level between arrrgghhhh, or whatever, and the. .Armed Forces’. .Pay Review Body. .Thirty-First Report 2002. .Chairman: The Rt. Hon. Baroness Dean. .of Thornton-le-Fylde?

Is it not all done. Please tell. I really want to believe………

[BEagle]

Sorry, I haven't yet had a chance to digest the whole presentation; however I remain convinced that, although these first retention incentives will be primarily targetted at those groups where manpower shortage is the most serious, non-Officer aircrew retention will NOT be ignored. The ARRWG has worked pretty hard to achieve this first result, many things have been achieved (presently restricted to Officer aircrew, I admit) which have long been sought.

Speak to your Personnel folk tomorrow and just ask them to establish what the estimated timetable for a parallel retention incentive announcement for non-Officer aircrew will be. They are there to help you, after all.......

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[cheapseat]

BEagle

Manpower shortage most serious?

Where?

FACTS PLEASE.

[BEagle]

Please consult the experts for the facts; we were told that it's the critical shortage of pilots and navigators which this first retention package is aimed at. I don't know any more than that. Sorry. But I most certainly do believe CAS' sincerity in aiming to recruit and retain those who we need to be able to project Air Power.

[dopeonarope]

What happened to all those navigators we had so many of in the 90's and took over doing the Loadies job on SH?

I've left because I could see that us (I speak as an ex) SNCO aircrew were going to be shaffted again and again........... "Oh it will get better boys.....they are doind a review for you as well as us ........" Oh how many times did I hear that.

SH, SAR, Fixed Wing transport, Maritime..... how are these going to function if you continue to Pi&& off the Airmen Aircrew.

[cheapseat]

BEagle

"we were told........." by who?

I've 'been told' that the only aircraft left on the ground after a 'launch the fleet' today, right now, would be wanting a SNCO for full mission spec (Not an IF trip for hours building).

Who's right? Who's spin? Who's putting up with it past their option?

You can put who you want in the back of your' aeroplane, but if you spoke to the front end in SH/SAR they might say they're looking for more than the monkey they're going to end up with.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: cheapseat ]

Worked out what the little button things do. Now realise lucky to have job. Thanks.....

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: cheapseat ]

Oh that's right, should it be spoke or speak? There you go eh? I do give my (little} flying pay to op capt so it's not all a lost cuase eh?

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: cheapseat ]</p>

[JimNich]

Beagle,

You're missing the point (possibly).

Lets just imagine for one minute that the AA cadre at large do not give a rats @rse about any future minimalist, non-funded retention package.

Lets also imagine that they (AA) fully recognised that the Commissioned aircrew branches were always going to get the lion's share.

While we're at it, try and stretch to the thought that no-one (airman aircrew) ever thought that they'd get......... nothing! Which is what it has amounted to.

For my part, I'm realist enough to know exactly how highly the AARWG (or whatever) value their Airman Aircrew (see all above) and never expected very much from them so have not been disappointed.

However, my point is that if you cannot see what a bitch slap this has all been to us airbourne untermensch then I guess those in the ivory towers never will.

. .P.S. Did you see that Kenneth Branagh prog at the weekend about the Final Solution? Good wer'n'it.

[circle kay]

Jim Nic you are still my saviour.. look out for that jetstream!!. .Post edited to remove inaccurate data posted in haste and anger. Circle kay apologises deeply. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: circle kay ]</p>

[cheapseat]

Oh Beags’

One more thing; the Royal Air Force does not have any “non-Officer” aircrew, it only has commissioned and non-commissioned officer aircrew.

[BEagle]

Think Purple; the Army has JNCO pilots - and a Master is not a 'SNCO' as my first Air Engineer would hasten to add! 'Non-Officer' for brevity only.

'We were told' by the Wg Cdr reading CAS' presentation about the ARRWG's targetting. Go to the 'Aircrew Retention Latest' thread and look up one of the links (on page 10) which will take you directly to an approriate .ppt presentation - it's what we were briefed.

[JimNich]

.....and I bet you believe everything you read in the papers as well.

Circle K, could you count the rivets?

[ttthompson]

It's all a con. They have only included GD Rearcrew so that it can be shown to be all officer aircrew, not just pilots and navs, avoiding another political backlash. And those Officer types not entitled to the bung will have been sweetened with the new Prof Aviator terms. The lack of foresight, however, is quite in character. How many AE's, Eng's, ALM's have 22 yr options between now and 2008? They might be short now, but it's nothing compared to what is on the horizon. But don't worry lads, i'm sure we'll get looked after. Right!!!

[circle kay]

Jim Nic, not from were I was sitting down the back, but I know a man that could! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[cheapseat]

I posted this on another thread in reply to BEagle and feel I should post it here to make sure the apology is received.

"Beagle. .When you say, “all I received was a torrent odd ill-found abuse” if that is how my questions and comments appear to you then I apologise unreservedly.

I know it is certainly a cheek to start a thread in your good name however insult was not my intention. In fact one of my main motives for it was that your name is well respected on this forum.

The point of the thread is that you, like myself have been told about the targeting of the latest retention package, however I can lay down the figures of showing the OVERMANNING of non-GD/P/N aircrew and likewise the under manning of SNCO aircrew. You chose to believe the system and as a man who invariably finds the substance behind the myth with regard most things Royal Air Force I wondered why.

Sorry

Cheapseat by name, mug by profession."

I do stand by what I know to be facts; the chronic shortage of front line SNCO Aircrew and that's before you start looking for ones WITH A MED CAT THAT LETS THEM TAKE OFF.

[BEagle]

cheapseat - sorry for any misunderstanding; I wasn't accusing you personally of ill-found abuse - that came from others. However thank you for clearing the air.

I am sure that the non-Officer Aircrew manning situation will be carefully reviewed - as it will be for doctors, dentists, engineers....chaplains?? The words 'market forces' were used at the presentation to explain that those being 'pulled' by external forces are being targetted; equally those being 'pushed' will hopefully be retained by the promised 'non-remunerative retention incentives' which will apparently seek to address lifestyle issues.

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Megaton]

BEagle,

I hope you're right and I've been away from the UK for the last 2/3 years but, from afar, the 'non-remunerative retention incentives' so far look like a load of old toss (not to make too fine a point). Judging from the MoD's previous forays into these sorts of measures we can probably expect more electronic blueys, the odd morale phone call, Old Spice and the new RAF Community Website (http://208.194.177.71/). None of these will make much material difference to the bloke who's just missed out on the Retention Package and will probably infuriate many more. You only have to look at the US system to see that they take 'non-remunerative retention incentives' much more seriously ie proper gyms, GI Bill, decent terms of service.

[cheapseat]

BEagle

Thank you. It is difficult to not come across as being a very negative, dripping little git when you find yourself watching the light at the end of the tunnel become a memory.

Those who have read this forum for some time may remember that the last time I had a little Pprune frenzy was about this time last year. My problem then (and I guess still is) was the fact that FS and Master ALM’s were to be placed on the lower band whilst the rest of the RAF’s sky gods would move to the higher band, or be carried along with the officers’ band of brothers (and commissioned rates of flying pay).

My particular gripe was that there was so much winging about lack of recognition when yet another blow had been dealt to both myself and my trade. That particular flurry of posts probably made me about as popular as AG at present. However, now that the RAF has finally come up with what appears to be an excellent package, not so much the bonuses but more the Professional Aircrew Spine, maybe you could all take a look at SNCO Aircrew and find out what we do.

This is a tall order because even my own trade can’t be bothered to look at what their colleagues on fixed/rotary wing do, demonstrated by the awful ‘my jobs better than your job’ slurry on Pprune last year.

If you do take any interest then here’s a little taster of my ‘Big Air Force’ career to date:

1983 Join up.

1986 Become ALM.

1988 Terms of reference changed removing right of time promotion. Promotion was the only way to get ANY pay increase. However I get ‘reserved rights’ to time promotion pay scales.

1994 Start to be paid as FS even though Sgt.

1995 Offer of promotion to FS, with adjuncts! Categorically told (sadly not in writing) that this included offer of service to age 55. If accepted would have to sign on to new terms of service (no right to Masters pay/pension). If turned down would NEVER be offered again. Service past 22 year point would be refused. Signed on to new terms, looking to start a family.

1999 RAF signing just about anything with a brevet on past 22 year point. I got offered my FS on ‘merit’. It was rammed down my throat but I’d had to work for it. Perverse! Now every toe rag that’d been in long enough for the pay but were unfit promotion got signed on with their Masters pay (and pension) in their back pocket.

2001 I’m left behind on the low band of pay.

2002 I’m sat here typing this.

Please guys, if you’ve read this far and know nothing about SNCO Aircrew other than what you read on here get out and meet some of us. We come across as complete Muppets on Pprune because we’re always so bitter and twisted, come and have a look at what we do, it is honestly up there with the navs and we are just as cack handed!

Cheapseat

[widge]

Cheapseat - Sadly a typical tale for many NCO aircrew. If your case does not reflect what a poor state the cadre is in, then I dont know what will.

PS. Not that it will make you feel any better, but my own situation is identical to yours (apart from the years!), and I an seriuosly wondering if it is worth it at all?

[ttthompson]

BEagle

Sorry to disappoint, but it would seem that the “Non-remuneration staff action” referred to in the AFPRB report is the current drive to recruit AEOp’s (glossy mag adverts, new website etc etc).

Assuming you apply the same criteria (IPP –5yrs etc), most of the AA who would have been targeted are mature adults in their mid 30’s, not spotty faced teenagers. These guy’s have given most of their adult lives to an organisation that has treated them shoddily and has relied on their sense of Loyalty and Duty to ignore this treatment. Whether it has been changes in term of service, pay down banding, manning deficiencies, broken promises on promotion or additional pay, this may be the last straw for a lot of talented and highly professional people. We can only tolerate so much.

Loyalty and respect is a two way process, it must be earned and it cannot be demanded. Sadly, I feel that many AA will now accept the inevitable, the Service they joined with so much enthusiasm and optimism in the mid 80’s is now just a memory.

I’m sure that all NCO Aircrew, regardless of trade and rank, would love to believe in your sincere optimism. Unfortunately, this time, I feel that is all it will be. But thanks for your support, it’s nice to know that some appreciate us.

. .Airman Aircrew, RIP.

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>