SNCO Aircrew.... Shafted???

[SandyCrevice]

Firstly I want to point out that I'm not going to whinge about all the FRI's (or whatever they're called ) awarded to Officer Aircrew, but the lack of, well, anything really on offer to us.

I'm well aware that it's been admitted there is a vast shortage of people, and it will be investigated.... but when???? As Seak1ng points out in another thread, the AEOp branch in particular is way short on manpower. The ALM's were dealt a blow by not being in the higher pay tier last year, and now this! It is what we all call a Shaftin'!!!

When will the problems be addressed? Are they being investigated 'fully' at the moment? I see know evidence of this and fear the problem may get worse.

We're informed the main problem is with recruitment and not retention, well this isn't going to help keep experienced guys in to help soften the blow of the recruictment shortfalls is it!

Rant over (for now)

[BEagle]

RETENTION INCENTIVES FOR NON-OFFICER AIRCREW ARE INDEED BEING FORMULATED!

Sorry to shout, but please rest assured that you are NOT being shafted. They simply can't do everything at once and this first announcement is to target areas where manning levels are the most critical!

[cheapseat]

BEagle

substantiate 'most critical'. Facts please.

[The Pilgrim]

Sandy Crevice you get my vote, BEagle you are an ass.

[Ginger Beer]

Beag's,

Don't start singing the party line fella,

They must have known for months that they weren't going to include us as promised, so why didn't they have the spine to tell us?

They are taking the pi33 and deserve to be left in the lurch.

[Muff Coupling]

Sandy,. .Agree with your concerns.(see my post on aircrew retention).. .The work of the AIRCREW (not just critical area PILOTS) RRWG is "complete"! The Def Management Board has merely directed single services to "action" the non-remuneration issues identified. The situation for NCO Aircrew (RAF / RN) is by inference known to the working group. Reveal all..soonest!!

[cheapseat]

Muff C

If so why this:

Armed Forces’. .Pay Review Body. .Thirty-First Report 2002. .Chairman: The Rt. Hon. Baroness Dean. .of Thornton-le-Fylde

. .“Finally, MOD told us that, while the remuneration package was not suitable to address shortages of RAF NCO aircrew, non-remuneration management action was being taken to address those shortfalls.”

“Firstly, the remuneration proposals do not apply to NCO aircrew who are in short supply. We have asked MOD to explain how its “non-financial management action” will address those shortages.”

[Ginger Beer]

I do not believe that there will be any financial incentives for us SNCO Aircrew. I think it was said in the brief that the rearcrew types would be appeased by the non remuneration package. I don't know about you guys but, my quality of life is pretty good however, my remuneration is not compared to my civvy counterparts.

I want my total salary package, as professional aircrew, paid to include what was the flying pay element. Now that the precedence has been set AND I want a couple of decent bungs, just like everyone else.

AND PRETTY DAMN QUICK

[cheapseat]

I have a feeling that the birds in the tree that I'm barking up have finaly dropped their best.

[SandyCrevice]

Well said GB! And while they're at it, maybe they could stop pi$$ing around, sort out the manning problem and then I won't spend the next 18 months "filling in" on other crews as well as my own crew commitments, thereby reducing my quality of life!!!

Rant No. 2 over (for now)

[Muff Coupling]

Cheaps,

My point exactly..the truth is out there...somewhere!!. .AFPRB statement challenges the MOD et al the ARRWG for a response.. .Connect my post on BEagle thread on report findings.

[SandyCrevice]

Oh... and another thing!!

The terms 'Career Aviator' and 'Proffessional Aircrew' sound like they apply more to SNCO aircrew who spend most of their careers on a flying tour. We all know how many spec aircrew are on ground tours and still get the 'xtra dosh!!

[Hengist Pod]

"...non-remuneration management action blah blah blah"

F*ck all flying pay, ALMs on the low band if they work hard and get promoted and now this sh*t.

They think we're c*nts and they're treating us like c*nts. South west trains have the right idea. Everybody out!

[stbd beam]

HP

I do, for a change, agree with you. Maybe a mass PVR might galvanise opinion at higher echelons - prob not methinks. Tis a shame we have been rolled over again, maybe after the disaster that will be 2002 has subsided, we might be afforded proper consideration, ho ho ho. When the SNCO force is 30 to 40 per cent undermanned, then they may listen. I can but dream.... I fly with a 12 man crew now (vice 13), which is rubbish, due to undermanning. Ho hum, aircrew means Pilots, two winged master race, better accept it, eh ?

"Never have so many been so undervalued by so few", it is a shame however that it will bite us in the ass before them.

[Tiger_mate]

Gents when they changed the goal posts regarding time promotion, there was big talk of mass pvr and no action. You have again been shafted with a red hot poker and the wheels do not give 2 tosses. ALM FS & MACR being on the low band is nothing short of a disgrace, but as sure as SH live in sh17 whilst harrier mates get 5*s you are slave labour. ....and the ONLY thing that will make this change is when CAA rulings on carrying pax off shore change and or Police Aviation open up to crewmen (Read ALM)/ sensor ops (read AEOp).. .Now I wonder if Air Atlantic want any crews? There are many ATPLs held by SNCO aircrew, and their time will come very shortly, especially if a large percentage of front enders accept the bribe. Any decisions regarding SNCO aircrew that would be constructive would have been voiced today, so your airships you know the phrase......and the donkey you rode in on!!!

T_M <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[circle kay]

Tiger I’m right with you. The front line shortage in AEOp and AirSig branches is well above all but fast jet pilot and nav problems but we are told by our AEOs that ‘we feel your pain’ while they watch us fill the holes for flights and Sims. Meanwhile the world is awash with AEOs and group two Navs soon to have thirty K!! Well that’s life! Special sauce sir?

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: circle kay ]</p>

[Sideshow Bob]

Last year the Air Eng posters visited all the bases where the aircraft still have a three man flight deck. They explained that with delays bringing aircraft into service that we will be required to continue flying for longer than they thought. Come 2008 there will be a vast shortage of air engs unless some of us agree to extend our contracts. With this sort of treatment, the air force knows what it can do with it's extensions of service. Why stay with an employer who does not value the role you play. As allows, the officers have looked after themselves with the knowlage that the knockers will do as they are told. Nothing ever changes.

[ttthompson]

I was under the misguided opinion that the only problem with GD rearcrew was that there were too many of them. If there is such a retention problem with them, why are the limited vacancies for commissioning each year oversubscribed by 10 times as many applicants?

[MAD Boom]

Beagle, if you honestly believe the b******s about SNCO Aircrew being looked at over the next year for retention bonuses, then you are more naive than my two year old.. .If any money ever reaches my pocket, then I will be first to apologise. Until then, I think we have more chance of 42(R) doing SAR!

[Ralf Wiggum]

Pilgrim, I know only a handful of identities on this forum. Two I have no idea about are yourself and BEagle. I read the threads avidly and can say that BEagle's replies are always very constructive or very funny and often both. Yours on the otherhand...

I see your reply as being nothing short of immature.

Must be AA.

[bluntie]

"Undermanned", "underpaid", "undervalued". You've just summed up nearly every trade (air and ground) in the RAF!. Welcome to the real world. As I once heard a 1 star say, "If you don't like it, get out!". My 22 is approaching rapidly, time to go!.

[ttthompson]

Ralf W. As an avid reader of these threads, I am sure you are aware that this is another very emotive issue that people are passionate about. Your comment linking immaturity to being Airman Aircrew lowers yourself to the same accusation, and adds nothing to the debate. People in glass houses etc etc

[bluntie]

I have never seen a thread have such a massive response. There are a lot of angry people out there, and quite rightly so. Feeling valued is part of our make up as human beings and when we think no-one gives a sh*t about us it is wrong, but this goes for most of the RAF. I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it?. . . This latest pile of poo from the airships is just one in a long line, with regards to pay, conditions, etc. The RAF is on the slippery slope to becoming a third rate air force (small a.f.). The airships only care about kit. "Eurofighter, isn't it wonderful". If there is no-one left to fly/maintain it then it's just a lump of metal taking up space in a HAS. People must come first. It's a pity that no one in the ivory tower realises it.. . There, I feel much better for that!.

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[SandyCrevice]

retard rearcrew I couldn't agree with what you said more. There is no AEO retention problem, no AEO recruitment problem, the RAF has AEOs coming out of it's ears.... and yet, they qualify for the FRI!!!! Barmy? Maybe. Double Standards? YES!!

[Spence]

I hate to say it but bluntie has made a good point in that "I would love to see all the NCO Aircrew PVR in protest but it just isn't going to happen, is it" ..Well our lords & masters realise that and budget on the fact that most of us can't afford to do it anyway. The only protest I can see at the moment (cos shouting & whingeing does squat) is for the AA world to put their commissioning papers in en-masse and when asked the question of why do want commissioning just say you want the bonuses and you want to be treated as proper aircrew.

Did I spell whingeing correctly?

[ttthompson]

Unfortunately, I suspect that there will be more disappointment to come. The only way that the non-remuneration package will “appease” NCO aircrew will be to drastically improve quality of life. Whether you are Maritime, SH, AT or SAR, the only way to do this is by a massive increase in personnel, to reduce workload. To increase crews you need recruit more, but also stem the tide of those leaving. Sounds like a retention problem to me!! Anyway, I’m sure they’ve looked at the numbers of those due to complete 22 yrs in the next 5 or 6 years (the product of the recruiting blitz in the early 80’s). “

Problem? What problem?!” said the Ostrich, his voice muffled by the sand.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

[JimNich]

I'm with the Blunt one on this. He, and those above him are well aware that the NCO Aircrew cadre are going to stay exactly where they are.. .Lets face it, after the ethnic cleansing of the Air Eng's is complete and the smoke screen of the brevet change and new aircraft has cleared there is going to be a further period of unrest whilst the dust settles from all the influx and eflux of personnel. We are talking about TEN YEARS minimum here and whatever happens in the interim I'm positive they DO NOT care about. We will be made to muddle through and as always it will be hailed as a resounding success.

There many things wrong with the Airforce of today but none so serious as the blatant disregard for the welfare of the rank and file by those that rule. I personally am sick of the empty platitudes handed down by upper management who believe everything they are told simply because it was uttered by an Airship at some nebulous meeting they attended down south.

Well boys, I think we've all got the smell of this one and its going to make great fertiliser.

[750commando]

Truely the ALM has been shafted again, but without the mass PVR little is going to change. It is a pilot run airforce and we are the lower end of the food chain, none of us are indispensible and any shortfall of crews will be filled, Rock ape second LM's on Chinook etc. may become a reality.

[ttthompson]

I feel that some sort of cohesive action is needed, but let's take some note of the recent ALM pay debacle. A lot of angry people let off a lot of steam in forums such as this, and it did them more harm than good. A considered and structured approach is needed on several fronts, displaying a united cadre of NCO aircrew, reguardless of rank, trade or current role.

Ranting and table thumping will lose us support. We must present a reasoned and calm argument if we are to gain any credability at all.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

[Judge Rembrandt]

Netto: Weak, readable.. .Jim: Spot on!. .R2: Absolutely right!. .750: "Lower end of the food chain" - Yes, but we normally get left a few crumbs!!

This FRI announcement has angered a lot of AA and has helped me with my next "career" decision!!. .JR.

[Blacksheep]

Its no use blaming "their Airships" for even with rings all the way to their elbows, they still have to do as they're told. As the men in uniform become fewer and fewer, the men in grey suits increase exponentially. The declining amounts of money that the taxpayer forks out for defence goes to pay for more and more Civil "Servants" in the MOD. When it comes to the pinch, those at the bottom of the pile always get pinched hardest, in the Aircrew world, its the SNCOs who are at the bottom and dip out on the goodies.

I handed my own blue suit in years ago when I mistakenly thought that civil aviation valued my abilities and training more than the Royal Air Force; but I'd put in my time and repaid the nation for my free training, so I left without rancour. Its sad to see that the defence cuts that ravaged the armed forces in my own time have continued unabated ever since and it never ceases to amaze me that, despite all the discouragement, our armed forces are able to maintain such high levels of efficiency and morale. I hear what you're saying and I understand the situation perfectly, but don't for one moment imagine that its any different on the outside in civil aviation. The same shirkers that want you to defend them for free also want to fly to Ibiza for next to nothing as well. Low cost airlines are mushrooming even as the armed forces shrink.

But don't think that nobody appreciates you, I for one am very grateful for the efforts of all ranks in all services, but I'm sorry - you'll never get a penny from me. I stopped paying tax twenty years ago.

**********************************. .Through difficulties to the cinema

[Hengist Pod]

Blackie

Good point, but how can you say we're feeling the pinch when there's £100,000 up for grabs for any Tom, Dick or Harriet (as long as they live in Rodney Hall.) We as a nation are supposedly diverting all our spare cash into Health and Education with none available for Defence. Well that's fine; unpalatable, but so be it. When we're then told that millions of pounds have suddenly become available for white collar workers only, it leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. I'm not greedy. I get paid a decent enough wage. But as was said earlier on these pages, if there's a piece of the action, why am I getting none of it? As I reach for the Gen App do I apply for a commission or PVR? There's going to be a stampede for both. I have the honour to refer to the fact that I haven't made my mind up yet but I really can't see much point in being SNCO Aircrew. It's a shame, but I'm tired of being undervalued and treated like a tw@t when other guys on the aircraft get paid bucket-loads for putting their long-johns on the right way round.

[Hoots]

I agree that most AA wont PVR, so it seem that the only way to be heard is for everyone to tick the box in the 7500 for applications for comissioning. I'm sure that OASC would love to hear the real reason that most people want comissioned, to stop being at the bottom of the food chain and get a better pension. (Could maybe even get the higher rate of flying pay at the same point as the officers, i'm sure the EO movement could make something out of that. Its one thing being paid less but to have to wait a longer time for the Middle or High rate seems like discrimination to me.) Maybe then they'd realise that there has been a bit of figure fudging when it comes to retention. Surely retention means to be retained in that trade and not doing another job in the RAF.

[ttthompson]

Anyone tried to get hold of a desk Officer at PMA today. Seems like they're keeping a low profile, or just planning a holiday now they are suddenly awash with cash!

Still, I just left a message, with reference to the 5 yr plan we'd recently discussed ("...that would really help me out if you'd do that!!!). It read "Sorry, but now I won't be around for another 5 yrs."

The voice of that ostrich just doesn't get any clearer.

[BADGER _LOOSE]

Having read all the good words that the airforce has said about how there is a shortage of pilots and navs(is that just until the introduction of Euro fighter, Herc J MR4 etc)but it's only a recruitment problem with the AA and been on the recieving end of the officer only retention package I am confussed. What is a non-renumeration retention package, is this a free pen, watch or prehaps a free PVR form. What is going on and when will the powers to be realise that AA have a brain and you can only be shafted so many times.. .If you think a poster blitz and a web site will smooth over hard cash then think again. All we wanted was a few quid just like the AEO's so that parity was maintained, but that in a fantasy world not the RAF.

[mighty punter]

If anyone has read the gobbledegook brochure that came out the day after this very fair, and well thought out piece of morale crushing b*llox, then there is a paragraph which asks why these Rearcrew "o"s get the deal but us unter menschen dinnae.. . Answer-to maintain commonality across the officer aircrew types-(or words to that effect). Funny but if you look at a few of our AT/AAR chum Sqns Down South then you will find on more than one Sqn that there are 2+ O's filling FS/Sgts Pics, however they are deemed to be retention risk. Where is the commonality in that when, if there were enough non-comms around, the Sgt/FS that would eventually fill one of these O pics when he retires to Monte Carloetc, will not get the same deal even though he is replacing him one for one!. .Resigned to the fact now but as far as doing anything but my job, well to quote another infamous Airship,"They have sowed the wind-Now they must be prepared to Reap the whirlwind"

Ps.Watch out when MRA4 goes down the swanny.A bit of panic me thinx....

[widge]

Hope your prediction bout MRA4 is way off the mark, as I see it as my ticket out of this mans Air Farce.

[BADGER _LOOSE]

Look on the bright side at least B aerospace will pay you well before and after they shaft you, but think of the medals. In the end the airforce downunder (hush my lips) will take the under valued yet well trained chaps the airships cast aside. Go Aussie Go Aussie etc what retention problems

[ttthompson]

This really is a sad thread. So many people with so much disappointment. Were we the real niave ones if we believed all that "....across the board" propaganda?

Once more sold down the Swanny, just like AEOp downbanding, Terms of Service, reserved rights, not being re-engaged to 55 unless you accept promotion, Pay 2000 for ALM's, revised flying pay (now deffered to 2004), Sar paramedic Pay.

Enough said?

Airman Aircrew, RIP

[ttthompson]

Sandy Crevice, or any other takers,

If you are interested in an idea being floated around, email me with a contact address.

Don't get Mad, just join a gang, then get mad!!!

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

[ttthompson]

This was slipping down the page, just thoght i'd pop it back up again!

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

It was an interesting brief! and was blatantly obvious that we were not going to get anything from the outset. No surprises! . .We, AA, are deluding ourselves if we thought there would be any parity between ourselves and the Pilots/Navs. However, what did add salt to the wounds was the FRI given to rearcrew O's. There is no argument that can justify the money that they will be given.

What needs to be addressed is the reality of what we can achieve if and when they complete our survey.. .Suggestions:

They adopt a similar line to Prof Aircrew and incorporate our Flying Pay into the pension calcs?. .Alter the point at which we move onto the Higher Rate of FP. Waiting 22yrs is..... .Allow more opportunities for commissioning?

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Shouting Rad-Alt ]</p>

[ttthompson]

Anyone else notice the announcement in the AFPRB statement that the Additional Pay Review has been put back until 2004. This was supposed to rationalise Flying Pay (similar pay for similar jobs etc), with the outcome being touted of a small increase for the AA, but a substantial cut for the commissioned types doing the same job.

Again, it would seem as if we have been rolled over. JO rearcrew recieving loadsa wonga and still recieving 3 times flying pay, or Prof Aviator terms (therefore bigger pension, bigger gratuity).

Loyalty and respect is a two way process, it must be earned and it cannot be demanded. Sadly, I feel that many AA will now accept the inevitable, the Service they joined with so much enthusiasm and optimism in the mid 80’s is now just a memory.

It's a shame that it has come to this, I really feel sad as I so desparately want to serve, my misplaced sense of Loyalty and Duty drive me to, but there is not a lot more that I can take. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one with similar sentiments.

PS Well done to the SAR boys, professional to the last.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: retard rearcrew ]</p>

[Ginger Beer]

I'm off,

I don't think that I could look myself in the mirror with any pride if I chose to stay in till 55 yrs.

After this latest insult, I will be voting with my feet and going to work somewhere that I will feel worthwhile. Somewhere that rewards me for my efforts and doesn't treat me like a 2nd class citizen.

Even though I could keep waiting for the outcome of the flying pay review, the AA review and any other carrot that they can BS me with, I'm off at my 22 yr point and STUFF the lot of'em.

I have swallowed enough personal pride for a life time, there are plenty of rewarding careers out there.

They will never learn

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Ginger Beer ]</p>

[circle kay]

Well it’s the start of another week and I’ve spent some time reflecting on the events of the past 7 days. The dust has just about settled after the retention package announcements and as can be detected on this forum has left airmen aircrew very disenchanted. . . . .In the past 2 years the pay 2000 slap in the face for ALMs, the almost blind panic when AEOps were at first assessed to be under the wire for high band and this latest ‘personnel management masterpiece’ has shown over and over again that we serve in an organisation that has no idea of our role or our skills. Neither fish nor fowl has always been a description of Airman Aircrew. But it has never been more true than today.

As Tuesdays PowerPoint said we have a recruitment problem I wonder just how many people serving at CIOs have actually seen AA during there service let alone have any extra insight to give the prospective AA coming off the street? A large proportion of AA has always been people who fell at the OASC hurdle for Pilot / Nav, is the advice they are given there any more detailed? Talking in the crew room to the new guys and girls just out of the sausage machine leads me to think not. I also wonder how many serving airmen are thinking of remustering to AA? I suspect that the number of retreads has drastically reduced over the last few years, again in a quick tea bar survey of the newer AA a much lower percentage of them have come from the ground trades than the late 80s to mid 90s intakes. I humbly suggest to their airships that much more than a new website or poster campaign is required, also please please use a different agency to the one that produced the ‘limited company’ eyesore!

As for a retention problem, while it is true that Easyjet and Ryainair are not exactly falling over themselves to recruit ALM and AEOps. A steady flow of people are leaving the trades to Pilot, Nav, Rearcrew Off (so what’s a Nav?), even god help them a commission in the Op Support and Supplier branches. I wonder if this is presented in the same way in the manning statistics as NGR/PVR is for officer aircrew? Also a lot of AA will be reaching the 12 and 22 year points for direct entry and ex airman respectively in the next 24 to 48 months. The events of the past two years will hardly encourage them to stay in the mob.

It has been a disappointing week. Well, they say if you can’t take a joke…. I am still very proud to be AA in the RAF. Proud to carry on the tradition of SNCOs with brevets, with their skilful and valiant feats of airmanship in the Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic and the Bomber Offensive. A pride in the job and carrying out the task to the best of our abilities still true today over the stormy skies of the Atlantic and points east of Suez. Well I can still take a joke, but very, very soon I won’t find this funny any more.

Anyone got the number for Australia House? . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Percycat]

Since they opened the flood-gates to 'alternative' commissioning ie Ops Support, there has been a mass exodus of quality crewmen from SH.

The experienced plastic-pursuit-ship rearcrew who have tried for commissioning within the branch have been told 'sorry mate no slots! However, if you sell your sole to the devil and take a bluntie-branch, I am sure we can come to some arrangement!'.

After this latest anouncement, what is left to discourage the commissionable flying types from leaving the branch for better pensions and a more stable (if less interesting) life?

Percy

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Yozzer]

On my (v large) sqn there are only 4 second tourist snco aircrew. When I joined my first sqn in the middle 80s, I was the only first tourist for quite some time. There is an experience vacuum and whilst this IS across the board including the twin winged master-race and the wso balast, it is also very blatent amongst the AA.

I have little time left regardless, and will stay only whilst posted to a place of my choice, in other words a notice of retirement looking for a time and place. Recent events have done nothing to delay that opinion, and like many of my peers, I have no intention of going full term.

Giving the O Rearcrew the incentives without extending that to SNCOs is typical of the Class Britain of many many years ago, how a Labour Government allowed this to happen God only knows. There must be some really good headlines here for the journos that visit these forums on regular occasions. For if I worked for the Daily Whatever I would grip this one and run afar with it.

Yozzer

A previously unchipped shoulder is showing signs of a little crack appearing.

[below average]

ok, so we don't get any retention bonuses. I think a lot of you out there are forgetting one very important thing that sets us apart from the master race and our fellow back enders who've had the op.FREE SHOES!! yes, thought you'd forgotten.So you see, it's not all bad is it? On a serious note, it seems to me that the powers that be couldn't make it more obvious that they couldn't give two hoots about AA, particularly FS and MACR; so maybe if we did all PVR, we'd be playing right into there hands. Anyone remember Cpl aircrew?? get rid of us, they'd have the perfect excuse to put that into action. My advice is stay put just to spite them, and I will be exchanging my shoes even though there's nothing wrong with them, it may take me a while, but I'll get my 30 grands worth!!

[BEagle]

It will take you b£oody ages on current form, mate. I've only been waiting 3 months for Boots (Flying) Lightweight Size 8 Medium to turn up in stores.....

[circle kay]

If the full-page ad in the latest issue of ‘Maxim’ for WSOps is anything to go by then the ‘new deal’ may be on a sticky wicket to start with. The ad has two very noble spreads about a SAR crewman and a Surveillance Op on E3. The only mention of maritime is a line to the effect of ‘WSOps used to track submarines but those days have gone.’ That may well be a surprise to the 75% of new guys that will find themselves up the A9 to Kilo. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[JimNich]

**** me circle, if we ever manage to track a submarine it'll come as a surprise to 75% of the people already here as well!

FULL-ON robot chubby dude!

[IRON CLOG]

Thought I'd put in my two penneth.. .Deeply saddend if not at all suprised to see AA shafted once more.. .Looking from the outside (Departed the datum in 96),it seams things go from bad to worse. I still have many contacts inside reflecting concerns expressed in this forum, quality of recruits tempted by such poor management, guys actually wanting frontline posts instead of tunneling out, second tourists/experience on ops. All this means a less effective fighting force. Heaven knows most off the equipment is old to the point of embarassemnt and is made to perform inspite of itself by the expert attention of an experienced crew. So what happens when you lose that experience.....you lose the war your airships!!!. .Ok rant over just to chear you up though guys your training and experience are highly valued outside. I am currently an airline training captain and know that an AA background is very well thought of in this field so don't be cowed. I am very proud of my time, although the grass is not always greener I think I see some new shoots growing.Regards to all JC

[covec]

IRON CLOG

Moray Flying Club Airman Aircrew member?

[circle kay]

Jim Nic . .Point taken what else would we do in the three 'smartie' tubes if we didn't practice losing subs? . . . .<a href="http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk" target="_blank">www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk</a>

[eviltwin]

I think thems upstairs should commission the lot of you and then we could get rid of this thread.. .Hurrah!. .In a multirank crew structure, ie every role except FJ there are AA who are as critical to the mission as the guys at the front, in the E3 or Nimrod there are even more of you.. .Of course these management consultants (was it Arthur Anderson?) must have been invited to the crewroom at 1600 when the AAs were having Tea.

[Charlie Luncher]

Circle Kay. .The problem we have is that we always leave at a natural wastage point ie 12 or 22. This does not flag any warninings at bluntie Hq therefore just recruit more.. .However some of us have taken our right to ngr in between these points. As before we will winge, a working group will be/is being formed and nothing will change. We were lied to about it being a review of additional pay, I never expected a retention bonus, but I did expect a review. I do have the number that your interested in and in addition I have found out that my Aircrew training and experience will get me straight off bins and on to fries. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

On a lighter note Iron Clog do you still need cushions to see over the dash.. .Bet you never see Windsurfers in formation behind ships 400 miles out at sea anymore?. .I know what/who you did in Sigonella! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Email me for beer a couple of us are just round the corner from you. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[circle kay]

Eviltwin,. .If they came into the sqn at 1600 they certainly wouldn't have seen any AEOs or Navs perhaps that’s where they got the impression that we were short of them

Charlie,. .If I mention your name, do you think I’ll get to start with two stars as well? At least that particular organisation is happy to admit its lead by a clown. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[covec]

We do have commissioned friends - guys who have helped in particular with the AEOp High banding issue.

Ice Station Kilo certainly seems to be organising - and to that end we need rational, sensible opinions. Other stations with AA take note, please....whatever we ALL say and do must be cohesive (!)and accurate. To the point.

Initial polls indicate 22 year options are gonna be exercised within the next 2 to 4 years.

That's a lot of AA...

[ROGERTHAT]

Right guys hear are the real problems.

1. If you leave at 22 years no bells and whistles go off anywhere. This was demonstrated by the fact they called it a recruitment and not a retention problem? The only way that people will be concerned is if people begin to pvr in numbers and that won`t happen. To them the outflow appears normal but the inflow is **** hence no bonus (recruitment not retention)

2. How has this review addressed additional pay?

3. If it is R and R payment how can AEOs and slow jet Navs get it. 60 Aeops go for 8-10 slots every year this doesnt seem like a recruitment problem to me. slow navs no longer required.

4. This was for fast jet pilots and navs (fair play) but the rest were just lumped along to appear not to be devisive.

5. Apparantly there is an advert in maxim that discusses the new Wsop brevet and only mentions in passing maratime ie no pictures or interviews unlike Wokker chums and E3d Dudes how **** is that. Reality check most Wsops will go to kinloss and nimrods so why hid it mmmmm i wonder. Get em in then tell them the truth.

6. Beagle so niave for one so old.

7. for all those sitting smug think what will happen when they no longer need you ( fast jet nav EFA ect)

THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANYONE GOOD LUCK TO ALL THOSE THAT GOT IT BUT JUST THINK NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT BE OUT OF FAVOUR TOO THEN WHO WILL SHOUT FOR YOU???

"IF YOU TOLERATE THIS THEN YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE NEXT"

please ignore all spelling and grammer errors but i`m fizzing and can`t be ars'd.

[Doctor Cruces]

Ah Sandy,

When you learn thatvthe services are run by Officer for the benefot of other Officers you will not be surprised that NCO's and ORs are ALWAYS shafted when money, perks, leave etc are up for re-allocation.

Took me many years to realise this, but once I had, all became clear.

Best of lick

Doc C.

[Doctor Cruces]

Couple of bad spellingz above, but won't let me log in to edit, sorry!

[A and C]

As i,m not in the air force can some one please shed some light on this , As far as i can make out this "retention payment" is ment to keep skilled aircrew in the air force and has been payed to commisioned flight engineers but not to NCO flight engineers , both types of FE do the same job with the same skill tests at the same intervals.

So why dont the air force want to keep the NCO,s ? and why dont you lot take HMG to court over this blatent job discrimination ?.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

A and C. . Unfortunately life in her majesties finest is never quite that simple. To take our lords and masters to court we would have to leave the service and suffer the hardship of loss of earnings etc. We would somehow have to fund such a case and bearing in mind the time taken to prove the short comings of the Mk2 Chinnok at the "Mull" what chance have anyone have of surviving to see a result!!

We are the last bastions, spelling?, of the class society and we have 3 very differant tiers. Those in the upper strata, in my experiance over the last 27 years, always do better than us mere mortals when it comes to pay and perks and whilst it sucks that's how life is in the mob.

So whilst those around me discuss rather tactfully.....NOT their new boxters reduced mortgages etc I have to wonder how 3% is somehow going to improve my lot. Still no retention problem with us muckers eh! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[vascodegama]

I have great sympathy with the points made here. I think one of the worst aspects of the Pay Review etc is that RAF NCO aircrew will not be allowed to join PA spine and gain enhanced pension. The reason the scheme will have so many increments/levels is to allow RM/Army NCO PILOTS to join. Perhaps their Lords and Masters care about them.

[k kanarz]

Let's face it, even though the Pilot\Nav mafia run the RAF for themselves, ignoring mere pondlife like us Airman Aircrew types (not GD, therefore Professional Aircrew!), the whole cr@ppy lot is funded by bean counters at the Treasury. Until morale, dedication, loyalty, etc. appear on their balance sheets, they won't give a stuff if they can reduce their final balance figures to appease their bosses. They just cannot see the knock-on effects their penny-pinching will have on other balance sheets.. .For want of a nail, etc.

As a small aside, a visiting Aussie crew had a great badge - A picture of a bird having a bat stuffed up its cloaca (look it up!) and the word "BOHICA". Bend Over, Here It Comes Again...

On the of subject the blatant bollox that is the WSOp advert, there are a couple of covert Maritime references. The E-3 guy is trained in radar and sonar (the latter training very useful on the E-3!) and it refers to "patrolling the Atlantic from the Arctic to the Azores." Either I've missed something about their role or that's one hell of a racetrack to fly.

. .To save money for officers' PRI, the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off. What you see is a train coming the other way!

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

Well I'm glad to say that I made the right decision last summer. PVR'd after feeling undervalued, fed up of being sh*t upon, lack of promotion prospects, Hierarchy that do not give a hoot about those serving beneath them and are all too willing to blame those below them to save thier own ar**'s. Overstretched, family not happy with service life, still young enough to take up a second career in my early 40's. So I'm out soon, and from what I hear, a few others will be following.. .Best of luck to all who decide to leave and to those who decide to see it through. You never know, those of us that do leave may increase your promotion prospects and get you a FRI.

Kindest regards to all AA

The Gen.

[ROBNIVEN]

I see our lord and masters are sending round some divvy from PMA to appease the NCO Aircrew world. Are they totally naive to the fact ( Or just plain stupid ) that we don't really care what the bloke has to say. At the end of the day it will all end up like usual: The pilot/nav mafia will be laughing all the way to the bank whilst the rest of us will be Proffessional Shelf stackers at Tesco's.

. .Actions speak louder than words.. .SHOW US THE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[DP Harvey]

Capt Radar - if you utter such nonsense at the forthcoming briefing you will do the AA cause no good whatsoever. Furthermore, do not think that this is a quiet corner of the web where you can vent your frustrations without fear of damaging a carefully considered response by the AA doing their best to represent your interests.

[ROBNIVEN]

DP Harvey: Where else are we going to vent our frustrations ? For years now we have been under valued as skilled and highly proffessional individuals, our needs and wants seem to have been ignored and since the latest AFPRB a few weeks ago, a resentment has grown that will only damage Officer and AA relations.. .How many times over the years have we heard that a review is taking place the findings of which to be published soon ????? Too many I think !!!!!. .Can we truely believe that this time will be different ?????. .My previous comments may have been a bit harsh and I'm helping out with CONSTUCTIVE CRITISM but I honestly believe that we as AA are about to lose some of our best and most highly skilled in the next few years. This is in fact quite understandable.

Put it like this.. .How many people do you know would stay in a job ( which I believe to be the best in the airforce). .where they feel their skills, knowledge and hard work are not really appreciated until they have the Queens commission ??. .Answer: Not alot !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DP Harvey]

CR your 2nd post does you more credit. Please don't misunderstand me; I believe the AA have a strong case for treatment on a par with our fellow aviators. There are some very objective and factual issues that need attention. Emotive responses, although displaying sincerity, do not necessarily carry much weight.

The review team must now be convinced to examine the AA in more depth. Their recent proposals have quite reasonably been targetted at the most vunerable area of aircrew manning: pilots. I don't think any of us can argue with that specific outcome. However, the GD(rearcrew) package is questionable at best. Now that they have dealt with the officers, we need to guide them towards the AA problems, in a mature and diplomatic manner. How do you suggest to an air officer that he got it wrong and then convince him to rethink?

Interesting times lie ahead.

[ROBNIVEN]

DP Harvey. .I believe the Air Officer won't really admit he's made a mistake until it's too late.. .The biggest bone of contention is the Proffessional Aviator catagory. This really was the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Not only was there a considerable cash retention offer, but now they have a catagory which will in the end, increase their pensions. Why not offer that particular part to ALL AA. . .One more point that has been mentioned in recent meetings. Why is it that we have AA and Officers all on the same aircraft, but on different rates of flying pay ?? Surely this needs to be addressed at some point in the precedings. Why are we all not on the same basic rate. It may be Okay for the fast jet world, but it should be EQUAL in the multi-engine / rotary world.. .Unfortuately I see this trend continuing and the gap between AA and Officer flying pay getting greater rather than getting on an even keel.

Lets hope that they AA retention review is not just a smoke screen to fob us off and hope we forget about it. If it is, then in a few years time, THEY WILL be forced into reviewing,what will be, a retention problem within AA.

As Geoff Hoon recently said " Our armed forces are stretched to the limit " Being appreciated goes a long way and makes all the extra detatchments that we will no doubt get involved in, a bit more bearable.

[HOODED]

Hate to say this boys but our pilot retention problem will not be solved by this. Neither will the RECRUITING problem suffered by the AA element. For those that dont know we also have a shortage of avionic technicians and this will almost certainly become a RECRUITING problem too, that way no money will be needed.Unfortunately increasing recruitment (if you can get the right standard and quantity) does not put the experience back overnight. Lets face it we all have a choice and post 11/9 things on the outside are slowly starting to pick up. After 23 years plus I will be glad to get away form what the beancounters have done to our beloved force. Just hope someone sees sense before its too late.

-------------------------------------------------

Its dificult to soar with eagles when you work with turkeys!

[ttthompson]

Captain Radar

Do you have any info about a PMA visit to AA? Are they visiting everyone, or more like normal, just the hubs?

On the subject of FP, this was supposed to be addressed by the Additional Pay Review, but that's now been delayed until 2004. Supposedly too complex and difficult to administer. Now, does that surprise you!!!

[DP Harvey]

retard,. .A Wg Cdr pilot, with weekly feedback to AMP, through AMP's Chief of Staff, is currently touring the RAF as an info medium between us, the ARR team and the AMP.

He seems to be a straight, no nonsense, type. He is now well aware of the issues raised by the AA.

You ought to know that an AA study group is being set up, with an AEOp rep and an ALM rep. The study group IS TO report its findings this Summer. No Eng rep, although it might happen.

[LionAA]

Whilst the AA review team has to report by the summer, we won't know the outcome until next year. I joined the mob in 89 so just missed the down banding era (authough it obviously affect me too) but I have been through all the other reviews. My fist reaction was "right another review, whats the point it's always the same result". But after a few pints and a proper think about it, I really do think we should give this review our best shot. We always moan but do very little (well I do anyway), but I believe this is a real opportunity to shout and be heard. My only question is should we go it as individuals or mob handed. Maybe the Aeop Forum (if thats the correct name) being setup at HMP Kinloss would be the best combined voice. It would also have to take into account AA in sunnier areas as well. We,ve only got 4 months to get all our grievances accross.. .On a lighter note, I hope the Pilot who came to deliver the news of the review got a hard time in Kinloss. Their was only a handful of us at Waddo (usual brief when all the A/C were away, and over lunch)

[lucky_b*]

I am not optimistic about a review that is going to sort our problems out. They have known about a problem for years, they have said wonderful things to appease us but it still comes to nothing.

FP has nothing to do with Flying, it is a means of targeting retention, PMAs words when asked why AA were on a diferent scale to O's. If FP becomes part of our pension can they take it away on a wim, which has to be the next big hurdle we will have to face!

Is HMP K and Lossie going to be given Isolated base status as people at Lossie were told a few years ago! This apparently allows LOA and Travel warrants to be paid, a nice compensation for living so far! Imagine the conversation with a new recruit to AEOp, yes you will spend a large percentage of your career in the back of beyond, but you get an extra £500pm for being there! Not so bad then! Ah well I'm dreaming once again!

Best wishes to everyone at HMP, I here you're all working even harder thn when I was there! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Huron Topp]

Hey, the Canadian Forces are offereing between $10,000-$20,000 for recruits in certain trades. Thats a sign-up bonus.

[widge]

LionAA,

The Aeop Forum you refer to came into existance a number of years ago. After the findings of last AFPRB report that put us AEOps' into the higher band, its work was deemed to have been done. Obviously we were not expecting the kick in the teeth that followed quite so soon.

Thankfully, many of the original big hitters from our side are still around, and have picked up the gauntlet once again (They just love a good scrap!). Obviously they cant promise anything as they dont control the puppets in the ministry, but what they will do is put across our (All AA trades) grievances in a clear well thought out way.

As has been said in this and other forums, we do not need mad rantings and ramblings, but a proffesional approach (which our lords and masters obviously think we are not capable of!) to try to solve these problems.

Keep an eye out in these forums for more updates as and when they happen

[LionAA]

Many thanks for the info. Lets hope we get what we deserve.

[covec]

The Wg Cdr who came to HMP Kinloss seemed a good bloke - very down to earth.

He re-iterated the fact that whilst he understood our anger, our emotions had to be checked in order for him to file a cohesive report back to PMA.

As a matter of fact, there are those in the upper echelons who did NOT want ALL officer aircrew to be included in the retention package. Just FJ types...

Having suffered direct hits from downbanding, loss of reserve rights on (early) merit promotion and now having to watch reserved rights guys get promoted/signed to 55 anyway, I can only hope that us "cold war" AEOps are at last going to get some bl**dy fair play.

A generous remuneration package, pensionable flying pay, career structure beyond MAEOp & restoration of reserved rights will keep me in to 55 - otherwise s*d MRA4, NGR & civvy street here I come.

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: covec ]</p>

[Hengist Pod]

With the title of this website at the top of every page, why are people spelling professional with two 'F's? Is the second one for 'F*cked Off?'

[Ambler]

I really don't understand what all the moaning is about. SNCO Aircrew and LE Officers are all volunteers - did they not accept the terms and conditions that were on offer at the time? Or is the real truth just down to plain GREED?

[covec]

AMBLER

No, we did not accept the conditions. They were forced upon us. Illegally in the EU's view.

Those with wife n kids n mortgage had little choice. Life, I guess.

SNCO Aircrew are a fact of life. Only time will tell whether each one of us will NGR as we approach our respective 22 point, instead of serving to age 55.

This thread is only the thin end of a very thick wedge of ill feeling.

Those of you who fly with SNCO Aircrew will know that we do not let things rest, and our memories are very long.

If we could earn a pension after just 16 years, instead of serving 6 years longer to 22, then already the RAF would be in an even worse state vis a vis aircrew retention.

At least the new pension consultation should, if accepted even up the "hair under your a**".

[cheapseat]

covec

You are so right.

Sad

[ttthompson]

Ambler,

Thin Ice Warning!!!

AA with more than 15 yrs service have been shafted on several occaisions. If we enjoyed the terms that were on offer when we initially enlisted, then there may not be quite so much animosity as you witness at the moment. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[widge]

Just a couple of things to be thrown in here.

1. I for one would be more than happy if they took away my flying pay, and like the so called professional aircrew added to my basic salary to improve my pension.

2. Why should I have to serve 22 years to get my pension where someone who is younger, less experienced, and who has no intrest in staying be able to get a better pension after only 16? Give NCO Aircrew a pension at their 16/38 point and see how many stay!

3. One of our MAEOp is leaving for PMA to start a 4 month study into all of this. At first he was to be the only AA on the review panel, but as I understand it a MALM has also now been appointed, so lets hope they can gain the recognition all our hard work deserves.

4. Am I living in cloud cookoo land for hoping for even the smallest of crumbs?

[Winchie]

C'mon, Lads. Did you expect some dosh from an Officer's pay review? -If you don't expect - then you are not dissapointed when it happens!

OK. I'm a LITTLE annoyed too. However, that's life. Am I going to give up my only job for a loss of a 2-3 grand hand-out? No. OK, back on your heads!!! - Until the NEXT arse shag!

[cyclic]

1st Threshold

As the Wg Cdr said, emotion will not win any battles. AA have many valid contentious issues but will lose their arguement if they are just seen to be rude and ignorant. The bloke that has had to endure all the finger poking by lots of people, I think, is doing a bloody good job. He did not write the package and nor is he responsible for any perceived failings. If giving one of the better senior officers a hard time is seen as good by SNCOs, then you are certainly going to lose all credibility.

As for those younger, less experienced aircrew getting a better pension, this applies to all walks of life. If everyone is paid the same and has equal benefits where is the incentive to progress? AA do a good job, just like all the other trades in light blue. There is a big shortage in one trade but that does not change the job. When the pilots, particularly the FJ mates got fed up, they left. There were no union meetings, no ranting, the ones that decided to go, got up and went. The others that stayed got on with their lifes or just whinged on this forum. That is why there is a shortage - due to retention. AA may leave in their droves but it hasn't happened yet; perhaps it will but until that time the RAF has a recruitment problem not a retention problem. Is the job/pay so awful that a mass exodus is likely to occur?

I hope that there is some equity created from this review as regards to pensions and when they are paid, but that is part of another review that is already in print and applies to all of HM Forces and not just AA!

[DP Harvey]

Winchie;

re the money: its not 2k to 3k payout. multiply by 10 and then you are in the ball park.

re your shrugged shoulders: that type of reaction simply encourages more of the same from those at the top. Sure, we can leave if we don't like it. Maybe, if we all live in S England with opportunities everywhere. In N Scotland there are no such opportunities for a married man with children at at school and the thought of selling a cheap house in scotland and buying a a 2 bed box in England is shuddering ...and thats before you get a job.

Now, no-one is saying that the Kinloss factor applies only to AEOps (we have blunties and lineys as well in similar situations). But, virtually every other trade and branch has postings of a noticeable number away from Kinloss. This vunerability within the AEOp branch is being exploited to the full by the higher ups: "give-em diddley squat, they'll stay anyway" is the attitude displayed.

The AEOps here probably know that I'm not one of them. I wouldn't object if they were in the package with the AEOs and I wasn't....they deserve something out of the review.

[Oh I See]

cyclic

"The bloke that has had to endure all the finger poking by lots of people, I think, is doing a bloody good job."

At what? Having his chest poked, listening, pouring oil on troubled waters, being a 'spokesperson', what?

ps I know you can't fly/won't fly!!!

Edited 'cos I couldn't spell lol!

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Oh I See ]</p>

[HOODED]

This is all well and good but it seems to me that the problem with the FJ pilots is being addressed anyway (Farewell 5 Sqn). Rumor has it that the SHAR will be scrapped and a GR7 Sqn may go too, so, if true, why pay out any money at all to the mighty 2 winged master race(commisioned variety of course). Maybe the money could be put into maintaing and improving what little kit we have left? Who knows with decent kit the pilots may decide to stay on after all!

--------------------------------------------------

It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work FOR turkeys!

123

[Pub User]

Boys, you're full os s**t. The RAF is critically short of pilots now, so they're buying some more - it's (much) cheaper than training them. If the same were true of NCO aircrew, they would do the same. Crewmen have very limited job opportunities outside, so they're not a retention problem, therefore the treasury won't throw any money at them.

[HOODED]

Pub, you're missing the point here! Yes the RAF is short of pilots, and yes I know crewmen are not as saleable on the outside, but throwing money at it ain't neccessarily the way forward. A lot of these highly skilled proffesional military pilots would rater be that! Give em decent kit to fly, less ground tours and less pen pushing and the majority would probably stay. Maybe fewer dets in the back of beyond where we're really not wanted anyway would help too. Hey I even know a few who have been with the airlines and have come back in as the job satisfaction is just not there.

123

[lucky_b*]

8 years ago when the Aussies were losing F-18 pilots to quatas, they started throwing money at them to try and keep them in. Obviously it didn't work, and the RAF said it would never copy them and throw money at the pilots.

Now they've changed their minds and handed out reasonable sums of money!! But surely even this won't make that much difference! The important bits are the pension rights and all the other inequalities that AA have to face. Plus the fact that for I don't know how many years their excuse for not doing anything has been "No Money", suddenly there's a pot of it around and maybe some of it can be used to make it fairer!

Not all our issues are to do with money, as they so rightly said, but compensating the services not just AA would be a good way to go! Why do the yanks, when they deploy to a war zone, stop paying tax! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[covec]

NGR 18 months before your 22 year exit/option point, lads. Make sure that the NGR date falls safely beyond the pensionable date, though!

"That'll learn 'em".

Re civvy street: prepare. Become marketable. You may decide to stay, and that is fine. But there is no harm in "prior preparation".

You never know how good, or bad it's gonna get....

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: covec ]</p>

[maniac55]

They keep saying that there is no retention problem. Oh Really! Even the Wg Cdr that did the brief at ISK admitted that there is, and there has been for the last 4 years, but the ARR looked at the last 10 years and was able to even it out (statistics can be made to say anything you want).

Also there is not a single AA trade that isn't short, unlike O-Rearcrew or Army pilots & yet they were included. Here's an idea, we have 338 more Sqn Ldrs & above than we need <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> (seriously 338, these are the official numbers), think of how much money that would save and how it could be used.

At the end of the day they included groups that they didn't need to and excluded the AA, how else can this be viewed. I don't know how many would have benefitted, not me for a while, but that isn't the point, this has been yet another example of what the hierachy really think of us.

I no longer listen to the words, I look at the actions because they speak volumes and are a tad more truthful.

I'd like to think that the AA review will produce something, but I've been around too long and know otherwise. Unfortunately since I joined (before '89) every review or decision made upon us has been negative, who knows I might be wrong. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: maniac55 ]

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</p>

[DP Harvey]

I've been reading some real tripe here. Lets get something right, lads.

The revised ToS in 89 was NOT a bad decision in itself. Everybody had the choice to adopt it or not. The cock ups since then have been managerial errors in PMA. I agree it is not right that some sgts in receipt of MACR/FS pay were signed on while sticking to their reserved rights and supposedly waiving any entitlement to re-engagement, while others who accepted the promotion and waived rights to MACR pay at 17 1/2 yrs are still only receiving FS pay after 17 1/2 yrs. The '89 policy was a good one and set in stone for quite some time. In fact, it was a previous kilo staish posted to PMA in the mid nineties who overturned it and started to offer 5 yr extensions...under the duress of, guess what...retention problems at that time (I'll have to dig out the letter and send it to our man on the team).

The AEOp downbanding was terrible and I have no issues with anyone deriding that particular decision.

Pay 2000. Although sme people here see it as another knock to the AA, it forced the AEOps into the higher range. They couldn't remain in a middle band so they had to go either up or down. So, up it was. Its a shame that individual MACR, who should never have been downbanded in the first place, have now got to climb up the annual ladder to get to where they should have been years ago. FS/MACR ALMs remained where they were, in the lower range, so although pay 2000 didn't enhance their position it didn't make it worse. It is arguable that a very senior MALM will earn more basic pay than a junior FS AEOP, which would never happen without P2000, but I haven't got the figures to hand (I might be wrong - getting my excuse in early)

ARR. The AA are not leaving their branches, let alone the service, ahead of their predicted dates in any noticeable numbers. So, we DO NOT HAVE a retention problem from the viewpoint of the ARR team's terms of reference. IPS (into productive service) ie OCU graduation targets are not being met in the AEOp branch. So there is a shortage and bad feeling when AEOs and Eng Ldrs employed in an abundance throughout the RAF, are seen to each receive sufficient money to fund Rum Punch accommodation without any need to ask the Queen to ante up. This leaves us with a morale problem. To quote a scouser: money can't buy you love.

[ttthompson]

No, money can't buy you love.

But I'd rather be rich and lonely than poor and lonely!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[maniac55]

DP Harvey

"The revised ToS in 89 was NOT a bad decision in itself. Everybody had the choice to adopt it or not.". The '89 ToS are not what I agreed to when I joined and like everyone else offered 22 it was either sign to the new terms or leave. Hobson's Choice is no choice and if I could go back and make the decision again it would not be the same.

"The AA are not leaving their branches, let alone the service", around 75 AA have been comissioned in the last 5 years and how many took a non-flying trade? We may not PVR/NGR in numbers but there a lot of bods that take their 8, 12 or 22 option or find other ways out.

We can argue facts and figures all day but the fact is we are short, and therefore can't afford to lose experienced personnel. We don't just need to recruit & train more, we also need to keep the individuals we have. AA in general has to be made more attractive instead of being put down, which the ARR did. I personally don't believe that bonus's are the way ahead, equalise the flying pay and make it pensionable, that would make a big difference.

I'll reiterate what I said before, I'd like to see the new AA review produce the goods, but I'm not holding my breath.

[PushTo Shock]

Stumbled onto this thread as I'm thinking of taking the Queens Shilling and applying for NCO Aircrew (ALM). Makes interesting reading. I must of been asleep when they mentioned this at the careers office!

Any reason given why the commisioned 2 wingers get a higher rate of flying pay? Maybe because the front end is more likely to hit the mountain first? Sounds like another case of 'those that have got shall have'.

If it makes you feel any better, as civvy HEMS Paramedics we get between £17K to £19.5K pa, no increments and no flight pay. We get to fly about one week in three. The rest of the time we run the risk of being stabbed by a drunk because we're not taking his 6 week old sore throat seriously enough!

Hope you get somewhere.

[6nandneutral]

Push To Shock.. .I'd still recommend that youy apply, yes it's not as good as it used to be and SNCO Aircrew have been shafted, as were the FS and MALM ALMs by last years Job Evaluation. But its still a good well paid job and with more of a future than Air Engineers or Navigators. Go for it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Hertz Van Rental]

Push to Shock

Loads of respect for the HEMS Paramedics. . .In answer to your query concerning flying pay, you seem to hold the common belief that flying pay is danger money - it is not (although it may once have been), these days it is described as "recruitment and retention pay" and the RAF is becoming quite subtle in how they apply it. For example, I seem to remember a plan to pay Navs more than pilots initially (as they are more difficult to recruit) and then for pilots to catch up and overtake later on (as they are more difficult to retain). Not sure if this ever came to fruitition though.

[keepin it in trim]

Maniac55

As ever there are lies, damned lies and statistics, and we all know you can prove anything with statistics. The one you chose to quote of something like 334 sqn ldrs and above in surplus is interesting if you break it down a little more, that nice wg cdr from pma mentioned that over 200 of those were wg cdrs and gp capts. Also at 38/16 over 60% of flt lt and sqn ldr pilots are leaving, for the service to have enough pilots it needs to retain at least 60 %.

The rearcrew trades are not yet in that position, but will be in about 4 years if present trends continue. Note that for both frontend and backend they are trying to fix the problem by recruiting more. HOWEVER, the frontend situation is so dire NOW that they felt they had to do something extra and that something extra is paying people chunks of money. I have my doubts about whether it will actually work. Lots of people have rightly said that the real problem is quality of life not cash, be honest are any of us badly paid? look at the going rate for some very stressful and demanding jobs outside, the queen's shilling is not bad. Also read the health warning on these bonuses "the size of and need for retention payments will be reviewed ANNUALLY" - reads as, once the problem is under control the cash stops.

Yes, ALL aircrew should have their flying pay included in their pension calculation, and I have no problem with the flying pay for ALL aircrew being the same. But bear in mind all of this has to get past the treasury who are notoriously tight-fisted and I think that was more than a little of the problem. However, it was wrong to give rearcrew officers the deal and deny it to SNCOs.

Speaking as someone who has never recieved any retention incentive/linkup/etc from the service, and will not benefit from this one, (and like the murphys, I'm not bitter) I wish the money had been spent on improving living and working accommodation, giving us decent serviceable kit with the right spares support to maintain it, sorting out some of the gross inequalities caused by pay 2000 and putting back some of the fun factor.

But £280 million isn't much in the great scheme of things and in real world terms we got what the treasury felt they could afford us to have. It doesn't make it right but there it is. The reason I will not benefit from the ARR is that like several of my colleagues I am leaving at an option ( I am part of that 60% ). It isnt about the money for any of us, it is about the points I mentioned above and other quality of life issues ( and no I wouldn't have stayed if they had offered me £100 000 tax free at 38 ). I have enjoyed my time in the service enormously and worked with some terrific ( and the odd not so terrific ) people but time to do something else is rapidly approaching.

One final point, I work closely with airman aircrew every day, and have done through my entire flying career, very few are anything other than first-rate professional aviators and I do my best to make sure that everyone above me in the chain knows how highly I value my SNCO colleagues. You would be amazed how many officers of all ranks share that view and are doing their best to support your cause. If you want to make sure that things are put right use facts and evidence to help them, because once it lands on the treasury's mat, and that is ultimately where the bill will fall, that is all that will count. Best of luck fellas.

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: keepin it in trim ]</p>

[Sven Sixtoo]

Just to go back a very long way, both on the thread and in time.

In about 1983, Lossie would convert your rail warrant to an air warrant no questions asked because it was "such a long way from civilisation". No use to me - home / girlfriend was in Aberdeen.

When I was posted to Odiham I got a very blank look asking for the same thing in reverse.

Not everybody thinks LM/KS are a long way from home (but my wife does so don't ask me back!)

Sven

[widge]

Cyclic,

Dont get me wrong, Im not bitter about someone younger/ less experienced etc getting more money than me, as you say its a fact of life. But, what really grips my #### is the fact that if you join up as O Aircrew, you get better flying pay even though for more than half, they are on the same ac as NCO aircrew whoes flying pay sucks by comparrison.

Also now we have these PA, for whom flying pay is now pensionable, its an insult to all other aircrew who work just as hard, and on the same ac! Surely no one should be penalised on the basis that they have not done x years and waived all rights to promotion! Hell if they offered that to me, I would take it.

Also isnt it the government who are bleating on about how much the OAPs cost to look after? Well after this they are going to be a few bob (euros whatever) short in a couple of years when they start to pension off a lot of these doddery old gits <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

just a little afterthought.....

[I.P Stop]

Dont be sad, all the full screws are getting the dosh aswell, in the Air Corps!!. .I CANT WAIT :) :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[The See Far Shadow]

Sorry about the user name, I noticed too late that someone else has it, and then I could not be arsed. Looks like he may get in the mire when you listen to my point of view.. .You see I am glad you have been shafted again, as I was worried that after I knocked it on the head, that a big load of cash would appear. Well it did, but the postman got it wrong and the AEOs got it! No surprise there then! I got out after the 3rd or 4th shafting (eventually working my ticket)for the trade in 2000. I think you deserve it for the lack of fight you have shown over the years. This should have been nipped in the bud 15 or so years ago when it first started.. .When you get shafted you have 3 options: lump it( in which case stop whinning!! Walk or Fight dirty!. .I took option two after I saw there was no stomach for option 3.. .Mutiny is the way to stop all of this. Simple, you refuse to fly except on SAR and real Ops. Then if this fails stop these two as well. The master race and the other ones sat on their elbows, start to lose some flying currency they may start to take note of the muttering in the ranks. It would be funny to see them make a back end from a bunch of AEOs. It is no good relying on the AEOs to represent you, they are jack and do not give a to$$. They are part of the problem, not the solution. It is in their interest to keep to good boys down! . . I look at comments like DP Harvey, about making a rational and reasoned approach on various enquiry boards!! What tosh! Thats what has happened over the last 10 years and diddly has happened. No boys, get emotive and angry and irrational and fight!! He must be an AEO I suspect, or a 26 year old 'Merit' man MAEOp, yesman.. .The only way forward is to make Trevor Mc Doughnut read it on the 10 O'clock news. THE NCO AIRCREW ARE REVOLTING!! When the public find out what is going on they will love it. Everybody loves a good old David and Goliath story. When the labour voting majority find out that our boys are being continually shafted by the Pimms sipping Telegraph readers in their O's messes, things will soon get sorted and not before.. .Come on boys everyone knows it was NCO aircrew that really won the air war in 39-45. Get some more Rorkes Drift spirit. Do not shoot till you see the whites of their half-moons then keep firing till they are all down or the barrells melt. Then when they are all down bayonet the wounded and rifle the corpses to claim some of what is rightfully yours.. .Make me proud I was once one of you!!

[The See Far Shadow]

OK chaps end of silly purile rant!! Seriously though, my thoughts go out to you all as you come to terms with this latest kick in the slats. Just makes me glad I am out.. .Just to say I had no probs leaving and getting work, the training counts for a lot out there. I am so much happier now I have gone. For me the grass really is less brown.. .I guess many more of you will be wanting to knock it on the head now and good luck to you. The RAF will then have the Force they deserve without you. Its about time they learned that you are intelligent blokes and can only take so much of being told you are worthless!!

My best to you.

[TKZ]

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> All this talking about it makes everyone, including myself, feel a little better. But what is to be done?. . The senior officer who has been doing the rounds is just a sop (correct spelling). We all feel listened to and go away mumbling about a review that won`t make any difference. If we were going to be included, then we would have been already.. . We have to keep batting away at the same message: that there is good reason to bribe fast jet pilots to stay, and to prevent bad feeling why not include all pilots. Fast jet navs come next so why not include them all, it seems fair.. . All officer aircrew are then included, which shows a generousity of spirit. . . The key point, I think, is that it is an aircrew retention problem; it is not related in any way to having a commission. It is the job that counts. They have included all the others so as to prevent bad feeling amongst crews. Therefore we should be included also. In the Eng Albert world, I look across and see a nav occupying the position that a pedal bin fills on other AFs Alberts with equivalent nav kit. On the Ten/Mighty Hunter the eng has arguably more responsibility (and still some job opportunities outside). On Timmy/Tommy the poor old SNCO manages to fumble his way through his own job & the navs.. . What to do? All I can think of is to write to our desk officers in the form of a petition, stating our opinions. Copy letters & sigs to the local MP/RAF News and the Sun (oops, shouldn`t have said that!). Any other ideas?

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[widge]

Bigpiccy,

Hmm, I like your thinking - lets get the union reps onto it - Oh! problem is we are not actually part of a union, so I cant see that approach working too well!

I think (sadly) thats it time to admit, that there is no way that were going to get anything unless we all go and do the Cranwell walk . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . I hope I really am wrong, but lets face it, it has been one shafting after another, so why should one more make us all up sticks and walk away? Until people start doing that, I beleive that we will not get a bean <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[TKZ]

<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> 1st Threshold.

We ain`t got a union, but we have got our numbers. If we send polite, reasoned letters that are signed by a lot of people, its all above board and at least we`ve tried. They can`t then claim that everybody was happy. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[TheSeeFarShadow]

The See Far Shadow de TheSeeFarShadow (No 1). .GET A NEW NAME, KNOB CHEESE. .K

[maniac55]

You can't write petitions or any other kind of group action, mutiny Mr Christian, it might sound like a good idea but would only be detrimental to the cause.

If they were going to include us they would have, if the AAR does produce anything it'll probably be 75% of what everyone else gets. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> (Old ISK joke, but it wasn't at the time!)

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</p>

[RubiC Cube]

Your problems may be solved, but not in the way you would like. Imagine the scenario - Geoff Hoon recently announced that we may have to think the unthinkable and look at roles we no longer need. THe MR4 is way behind schedule (and in trouble?). So 2+2 = scrap the fleet and solve the aircrew retention problem. Who knows? I don't.

[Flap62]

I really have had about enough of this treasonous bllx. The long and the short of it is that you should have worked harder at school. If you didn't spend most of your wages on white socks then none of this would be a factor!! Remember that you are not in a democracy - this is the military and you are (like it or not) not Officers so don't bleat when you don't get treated like them.

Edited for tooping - I should have worked harder at school!!

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: Flap62 ]</p>

[Tiger_mate]

Profile for Flap62 . .Member Status: Just another number . .Member Number: 49805 . .Registered: 11 February 2002 . .Posts: 1 . .Location: Lincs

. .Took him 10 days to come up with that little gem, what a wilf. Get some time in plonker!

[Flap62]

Easy now Tiger_mate or you'll spill your Watneys Red Barrel. I see from your profile that you're a pax consultant. In what I now do we call them stewardessess. Thank you for your advice but I have more than enough time in, most of it closer to the sharp end than your tow-line will ever be. I thoroughly enjoy the whingeing of this forum from a bunch of people who all dress like Boddie and Doyle, struggle with the Sun crossword and whos lifes goal is to own an Escort Cosworth. Keep it coming lads!

[HOODED]

Flap62 I see you are a model Harrier Pilot. (It's 62.5 degrees BTW) Your love for banter and contempt for anyone of lower rank gives you away. Sadly a lot of what's on this thread is NOT banter! These guys feel hard done by! As you rightly point out we're not in a democracy, but please remember next time you need a top up after going sausage side, whithout em you'd be floating on silk! That is if the SNCO armourer has remembered to do his seat indies!

Please remember were supposed to be a team! Not everyone has the interlect to like the Times!

--------------------------------------------------

It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!

[KD]

Keep going !! This is funny .. .Nice banter Flap62 !!

[MAD Boom]

Flap 62

Any relation to Admin Guru? . .SNCO's rule the Air Force, like it or not it's a fact, and without us, you wouldn't have a clue how to go about your tiny existence.. .I cordially invite you to spend some time up here in the frozen north and see how far that attitude gets you before 300 AEOps place a fireaxe through your head!. .Will never want to be treated like an officer, would have to salute too much and write too many reports, just want the same pay as someone who flies on the same jet.

Man, did I just rise to the bait or what?. .T****r.

MADS

[The Gorilla]

It's exactly Flaps62's attitude that is so annoying.

Bear in mind folks that he may NOT actually be an occifer. A lot of people round here are not who they appear to be.

But I will agree with him and others,though. There's no point in bleating about it on here.Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour.

But it's up to us now. Don't get mad get even <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: The Gorilla ]</p>

[Tiger_mate]

The Gorilla bleated:

"Yes we have had yet another rough deal which is being "investigated" by those without any honour."

But according to the latest, whilst there is urgency in getting a result, money does not feature in the solution.

I for one would like to see my flying pay included in my pension package, and it would seem that this option is not being considered, neither is/are any financial incentive(s).

I can feel a new poster / newspaper coming on for our morale. I remember picking up a 4* after the time promotion was 5h1tcanned, and after being asked directly what I thought, I gave him the full monty about pissed off boys voting with their feet. He expected that answer, didnt appear to give a 5hit, and very few if anyone walked. Bottom line, eat 5hit and be happy.

T_M

Edited to avoid narrowing down who I am to 1 person!

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: Tiger_mate ]</p>

[The Curator]

Tiger-Mate,. . After having spent considerable time with one of our "chums" from Innsworth, I can assure you that our "Lords and Masters" are fully aware of the way sentiments are running. There is a move afoot (Discussions start on the 4th March) to bring Master/SNCO Aircrew, after their 22 yr point onto "similar" terms as our commissioned brethren. Namely, we shall become some form of "Specialist Aircrew" -- we will not receive any extra money,...but... our Flying Pay (For what it is worth!) will be abolished-and considered as part and parcel of our daily pay. Therefore pensionable. I for one would consider this a vast step in the right direction to retaining "professional" aircrew in a vocation that already does pay a rather enviable salary. After 32 years in the Service, I consider myself very fortunate to still enjoy flying. However I am not so naive as to believe that our present Government will allocate funds unnecessarily if they think they can get away without doing so.I go on record, now, as admitting that I cannot cook a decent meal to save my (or anyone else's) life,.... however I do believe, that there should be a significant differential between the pension awarded to a FS Chef and a Master(Dare we say W.O.) Aircrew Member. At present there is not.. .THAT is what is wrong with the System. I await the final decision with great interest.

[Flap62]

Ah ha MAD boom - fell right into the trap. As you say in your post you wouldn't want to be an officer because they "write to many reports". Yes, an officers career has a broader width of responsibilities than your apparently similar airborne duties and that quite rightly is rewarded. As to the comment that SNCO's run the air force - wrong! Snco's of all trades (and don't get me wrong, many are a fine bunch)carry out the wishes of their officers - yes it wouldn't run without them but the same could be said of any rank. I never thought that I should be payed as much as an officer senior to me even though we were doing essentially the same job - why should I, that's not the way it is in a rank based structure. Unfortunately you all seem to be masters of whingeing on an anonymous forum whereas myself and mates like me did something when we thought conditions were unfair. We used the skills we had and spent a good deal of time and money to make them useable in the outside world, then went and got a job. If you're unhappy why don't you do the same - oh hang on, I forgot. The job you do is done in a modern cockpit by a computer the size of a casio watch and there's not much call in the civvie world for someone who's an absolute wizard with lashing tape. So why don't you all realise that you are very well paid, with an excellent pension and most of you don't have too many transferable skills, so get on with it or leave. I hear Burger King are opening 250 resturants in the next 2 years!

[bigley]

I have tried desperately to ignore you FLAP, but I can hold out no longer. I would like to remind you that these snco's with no 'marketable skills' are the same guys who would be fishing you out of the North Sea (that is of course assuming you are an aviator). Not withstanding that, SH,SAR,AT and a whole host of other vital MILITARY aviation roles would be useless without the AA. So there!!

[bluntie]

"Snco's of all trades (and don't get me wrong, many are a fine bunch)carry out the wishes of their officers "

Just how many years have you done (or not done, as the case may be)?. As the above crass statement is wide of the mark and shows a great deal of ignorance. Of course, it does vary from trade to trade, but my officers just sign the bottom of reports which I have written. They have no input to the content. I work and they sit on their arses. I most certainly don't carry out their wishes. In fact, they come to me for my advice, which is how it should be. For the most part, SNCOs do indeed run this Air Force.

:)

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: bluntie ]</p>

[Ralf Wiggum]

Flap,

If all we did was carry out the wishes of our Officers, the RAF would be up before the European courts so often, we'd have a 'Closed' sign on the door. We are often advising you lot how things are allowed to be done on this Planet. When we are enforced to carry out a wish of an Officer against our better judgement and it goes badly pear shaped (As often happens), I've never seen any Officer who will be accountable for his/her decisions.

Gone are the days when they were respected for their integrity and honour and if they messed up they would resign their commission before they were strung up(Hi Uncle Peter). You've got to earn it now.

It's the SNCOs who are the go betweens. You don't deal with the Junior Ranks directly and they don't deal with you directly. You should try to be in the middle of Junior Ranks and Junior Officers - Creche with attitude matey.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[MAD Boom]

Gald to hear it is not just me who thinks this.

Flaps,. .suggest you conduct a bit more research into what SNCO Aircrew really do, it is not all lashing tape, especially on the Mighty Hunter!. .And as Bigley quite rightly says, we are the boys fishing you out of the drink (assuming from your post which quotes you have spent time at the sharp end, maybe whizzy jets? that you are a one of the two wingers), the Loadies are the guys making sure your valuable equipment arrives in theatre, the enigineers make sure you have enough fuel to let you tank across the pond!. . Looking at the ops board today, there is a crew deploying to Lajes to hold SAR for 14 Tonkas on Monday- ready to come to their rescue if they splash in the pond(too busy counting their dosh!). Just think about that next time you have to pop your PLB, then tell us we are not worthy of the same.

Biting like a good'n lately, but find this sort of attitude too much to leave quietly alone.. .MADS

p.s. you will never achieve that desired senior rank if you can't spell 'paid'- just ask your nearest SNCO for some assistance in spell checking!

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: MAD Boom ]</p>

[SandyCrevice]

Flaps

You really are an ignorant tw*t aren't you? At first I though you were a wind up, but you've actually got no fu***ng idea!

I've stopped posting as much so as to not be seen as whinging, however, to sum up what I and most of my fellow SNCO Aircrew feel:

Officer Aircrew are (quite rightly so) paid as Aircrew. i.e. Their flying pay increases their takehome wage to reflect the job they perform (bluntie gets x, pilot gets x + y). For the SNCOs, yes we do get flying pay (£5) or whatever it is in the lowest slot (for your 1st 9 years), that marginally makes us feel that what we do is valued. With the 2 bands of pay, it is very likely that a newly promoted chef will be earning more than a newly promoted ALM! What! A rotary ALM on SH or SAR! That's a disgrace!

As for retention, the stats (I do hate having to refer to them), prove that the Rearcrew Officer is something like 30% overmanned! Yet they qualify for the FRI. AEOps on the other hand are 10% short, and as with the pilots, it's got to be cheaper in the long run to stop them leaving at options than to train new guys and gals.

One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder. Radical changes are needed for a seperate pay structure, however I think it unlikely that will happen. Pensionable flying pay @ 22 year point will be a step in the right direction.

Flaps, your arrogant comments are not welcome on this topic and create slanging matches. If you have any kind of respect, Sir, then we'd rather you didn't post on this topic again.

[Flap62]

Sandy - quote

"One other thought is that because SNCO Aircrew join halfway up the pay scale, over a 30+ year career you've hardly got any room for moving up the pay scale ladder".

Didn't hear many of you whingeing when you started as a 20 year old (or whatever) half way up the pay-scale, therebye earning a lot more than someone in a ground trade. So you think that because you started half way up the pay scale that the top should expand to accomodate you. The perk was that as SNCO aircrew you were earning what it would take you 15 years to make in a ground trade. Just because I got accelerated promotion as a graduate, should I have a different pay-scale at the top end as a non-graduate? There isn't one and nor should there be. What you want is firmly in the "cake and eat it catagory". As for flying pay, there are 2 ways to look at it:. .a) its danger pay in which case the closest most of you come ( with a few very worthy exceptions SAR, SH ) to danger is a freak toastie burn at top of climb.. .b) Its a form of retention pay to counter the pull from market forces outside. To this argument may I refer you back to my earlier comments about "marketable skills" and "burger king"

[Up Very Gently]

Flaps,

Mate, you have posted some of the funniest wind-ups I've seen on here. Top job - keep it up. You'll be reeling them in 'til the cows come home!

Gabe

[MAD Boom]

Flaps,. .Flying pay is NOT danger pay, if it were, then all 13 of us on board the same jet would get the same.. .Just because you make the papers for your 'dangerous flying' doesn't mean the rest of us don't do any, belive me we do.. .Again, I ask you to visit a station where AA are highly populated, before you make any more assumptions as to what we do.. .We may join the pay scale half way up the ladder, that can never be denied or unappreciated, but that doesn't mean we should not have the right to want progression which matches those we fly with.. .MADS

[Charlie Luncher]

Flappers old fella.

You bring to mind that old saying:

It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

I think Id rather work for Maccy Ds, as then I know for certain, I have a clown in charge. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

But seriously Flappers my ears must be going as your voice seems to be muffled by your colon.

[fergineer]

Well flaps you are one of the reasons that I left, please do come along outside and be in the same wage and allowance package as myself, ok the Capts get more but FO's get the same and in some places less than the FE. If I now have to go the fr8er route I would be pleased to have ex RAF nocker ALM's with me, the FE side of things outside is only luke warm at the moment but I feel that it may improve in the future and yes you are right I would take ex nocker FE's as well sorry for the AEops if I could find something for you guys as well I would. Then where would you be oh yes in your little fast jet, no-one to tank from no one to pick you up when you go swimming but hey you get the wages now don't you and you can sit in the crew room and talk about flying. Upsetting the AA is only one of your problems, your attitude will rub off on the groundcrew and yes I was one of them as well. 25 years man and boy and yes there were prats like you that long ago as well.

[DP Harvey]

Flaps,. .Most of the other AA on this forum recognise my style as objective without emotive undertones. Sometimes, without pleasure, I write messages here in broad support of the principles behind policies that have been less than welcome in the AA cadre.

Therefore, for the sake of credulity, I must maintain my style in this particular discussion. So, it is with displeasure, that I have to write objectively in describing your contribution to this subject, as pitiful. If you, as an officer, wish to promote the concept of the officer cadre being more superior on the ground and in the air, you have let yourself and your contemporaries down, badly, in the manner in which you have expressed yourself in this forum.

I don't wish to argue specific points with you, because in some cases the principles that underpin your badly written opinions are basically correct. However, you are clearly wrong in other areas.

You would be badly advised to give up your day job in favour of a new career in PR.

[The Gorilla]

Fergineer - Well said sir.. .Flaps - up and leave us alone.

I feel that you might actually be an officer - a man without honour you most certainly are!!

[HOODED]

Fergineer, well said old boy. I know a lot of FJ pilots and some are excellent but this guy certainly fits in well at the other end of the spectrum!

--------------------------------------------------

It's dificult to soar with eagles when you work for turkeys!

[unclebuckhead]

Flaps,. .during my career I have had the privilege and pleasure of working with some of the finest Officers the RAF has to offer and believe me they are true leaders of men. But every now and again someone like you comes along and spoils it! Do me a favour and crawl back down that ****hole that you came from.. .Time for honouring yourself will soon be at an end.

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: unclebuckhead ]</p>

[DP Harvey]

The latest Commanders' Briefing promulgates the "AA Sustainability Study". It barely mentions retention and there is nothing about remuneration or pay/pension issues. Not that we should expect anything in this brief, but the direction that these guys have been pointed in doesn't give me a warm feeling.....

[Terry Rumble]

Gentlemen,. .Could I please suggest that we stop playing into the hands of this lunatic known as 'Flaps' The man? is clearly a retard, and knows diddly about aviating - ignore him. Lets concentrate our efforts on what to do. . .It is of course easy to become emotive about this latest kick in the AA slats, and I am as guilty as the next man of getting excited and hot-headed in crew room discussions. But, as has been said before, we really must try to present a balanced and strong argument to the airships. The problem is, 'who can we rely on to support us?' I hear countless senior officers pledge their support and loyalty to us, but they then seem to fade away into obscuity just when we think they are getting somewhere. . .Nevertheless, like the majority of AA, I am also of the opinion that it will all be a complete waste of time. If it was meant to happen then we would have already been included. So, what to do? very little I fear chaps!. .Having spoken to the majority of pilots on my sqn there is little doubt that most of them will not take up this latest cunning offer. Of course some people will always sell their sole to the highest bidder, but in the main, most of them are siomply not interested, and indeed are somewhat ashamed and embarrassed at this latest outrage to hit AA.. .There must be some way that we can get together, either in a forum (like Ice Stn Zebra) or some other 'legal' meeting where we can collectively discuss and log our concerns and frustrations - anybody got any good ideas??. .Keep faith boys, we will not win, but lets not lose without a bloody good fight!. .Remember the booklet you all got from the last CAS where he talked of Loyalty, Courage, Commitment, Dedication Blah? - send it back to the new CAS and ask him to read it and practice what it preaches.. .Best wishes. .FGLFB

[Flap62]

Sorry but it's me again. Might I just add that I know that forums like this are read by staff officers and above and I think that if you want to want to be taken seriously you have to stop hiding behind anonymous forums. This was nicely demonstrated in the pilot world by the Jag mate who wrote to Air Clues (in about 1996-7 ish) outlining what he felt was going wrong. The outcome was a series of meetings with CinC Strike(as I recall) where at least we were able to put the points across to the man himself. This would never have happened if the letter had been anonymous. The long and the short of it is that there is no point bleating in the dark and lots of "lets all stick together boys" speeches if you are not going to be prepared to stand up and be counted. Just as you have written that I should be ignored because you know nothing of my background and think I am winding you up, then so the Air Staff (who undoubtably read this) will ignore your comments.

[Terry Rumble]

Flaps,

I have tried desperately to ignore your comments which are not remotely funny or humerous or even accurate. Your comments and replies to MadBoom, Bigley and Sandy Crevice are testimony to that, and your latest ones are little better.

If you are so clued up on the best way for AA to proceed, then instead of taking the pi$$, use some of that 'Officer Intelligence' and give us some guidence! after all, isn't that what Officers are supposed to do, look after their airman??

As for staff officers reading these forums, I am sure the do, but..... do they take any notice? patently they do not, otherwise they would be doing something positive to quell this appalling ill-feeling amongst the AA cadre.

Another AA survey/evaluation is nothing short of yet another stalling tactic, and by the time it is published, another staff/senior officer will be in post and the whole saga will (probably) start over again.

If I thought for one minute that my publishing a letter, would do the slightest good, then I for one would take up the challenge. However, you know as well as I do that it will do no good whasoever. The fact is that other than staff officers reading this, many newspapers read it, and I regret to say, they are probably our biggest ally (Look at last weekends Sunday papers ref RN)

So come on Flaps - HELP US OUT! Stop generating and fuelling all this bad blood and do something positive.

You never know, you may just one day be pleased to see an AA, particularly if he is on the end of a wire, and you've just had a Martin Baker let down!

Regards. .FGLFB

[Terry Rumble]

FGLFAB

You will be waiting a bloody long time to get any help from an O. Face it Mate, we're stuffed yet again, and I for one am out of here!!. .Turn the lights out when you go!!

MM

[Flap62]

My point was that we didn't need anyone to hold our hand. I thought all you salty old AA could do things for yourself, and if not, is that the reason that the Nimrod has a 2 man bog! If you wait for someone else to sort your problem you'll wait a long time. Hang on a minute - re-read the last few pages and posts and I think I can see one of the reasons for your current predicament and for the extra that officers are paid. It's called leadership - we have it and when something goes wrong you sit back and bleat for officers to help you.

[Terry Rumble]

FLAPS,

Typical!!!!you pathetic and sad individual.. .Just for a second there I foolishly thought you might have been going to display some of that Officer intelligence you claim to have. But you soon proved me wrong yet again didn't you? And now I'm kicking myself for not listening to what I said earlier and being guilty of playing right into your hands.

Leadership! ha ha, you haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about. Your comments are sadly now typical of todays modern Officer -"Screw you Jack, I'm alright!" They only go to show everyone how little leadership and Officer qualities you actually possess.

Here was the perfect opportunity for you to show your true worth and value and guess what? yes you completely blew it!! (no real surprise there I suppose!)

Sorry Flaps, try taking a leaf out of Flt Lt Jenkins' book, and find out what TRUE leadership and Officer qualities are all about.. . . .AA don't expect any help from the Officer fraternity and there is little, if any, chance of them receiving it. We will continue by ourselves, resolute in the knowledge that Officers like yourself are now sadly the norm in the RAF.

I can only suggest therefore that you crawl back up the ar$e of the 2 star you work for, and secure your next promotion!

Oh Dear, now I'm guilty of stooping down to your level!

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: FGLFB ]</p>

[Flap62]

FGLFB

A few quotes from your recent postings:

"AA don't expect any help from the Officer fraternity"

"So come on Flaps - HELP US OUT!"

"use some of that "Officer intelligence" and give us some guidance"

Well, glad we got that sorted out - no contradictions there at all.

It may not look like a goat or smell like a goat but it certainly bleats like a goat!

[Terry Rumble]

Flaps,

This is definately the last time I rise to your bait (I hope!)

Bleats, moans, winges, gripes - call them what you will. The fact remains nevertheless, that they are FACTS!. .As I said above, you were given the opportunity to display your Officer and leadership qualities. You chose not to take up the challenge, therebye simply proving to the rest of us your true value to this air force - very little I would suggest.

Farewell Flaps - You are a very weak link!

[Mightycruseven]

Flaps,

Intersesting views and opinions there dude.. .I have just been posted here to Lincoln and would love to know who you are/what you do.

Please feel free to email me, I look forward to meeting you.

[Flap62]

Dear mighty,

Ze old chateau, no pressure?

[BoBus]

Flaps 62. .. .As ex airman aircrew and now left hand seat 747-400 I look forward to the day we fly together with you as my First Officer. I will certainly encourage you to use your service writing skills by looking after the Flight Report and PLog for me. I may even let you play with that `casio watch` but only if you are a good boy.

[Mad_Mark]

Flaps, in a recent reply you wrote.... .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> . .FGLFB. .A few quotes from your recent postings:. .. ."AA don't expect any help from the Officer fraternity". .. ."So come on Flaps - HELP US OUT!". .. ."use some of that "Officer intelligence" and give us some guidance". .. .Well, glad we got that sorted out - no contradictions there at all.. .. .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Well, actually, there are no contradictions. The first of your quotes stated that AA don't expect help from the officers, your second 2 quotes were merely making requests, but still (as you proved) no help or guidance is actually expected . Just proves the lack of officer inteligence you display if you think that by 'asking' for help and guidance that we actually 'expect' to get any.. .. .Mad Mark!!. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 14:35: Message edited by: Mad_Mark ]</small>

[ttthompson]

Anyone heard any more details about the Sustainability Study (sounds ominous for a start), apart from the published bits in the briefing bulletin?. .. .Don't know either the Gp Capt or the Wg Cdr, but both MACR's seem to have considerable credability. Not an enviable position though, having the hopes of the entire AA Cadre on thier shoulders, and having to answer to them afterwards, whatever the outcome. One can only hope it doesn't end up as a mighty embarressment for them both. . .. .Best of Luck to them both.

[Yozzer]

It is wrong to make personal comments about anybody on an anonymous forum but dont hold your breath about at least one of the (Party line, Not a crewmans friend)senior officers.. .. .Besides which, if there is a "cost free" caveat, then it matters not how good "our" reps are, they will fail to impress many people.. .. .I would settle for flying pay parity with my commisioned breathren and the said pay to be included as basic pay (pensionable). Odds of this happening? . .. .The only good news is that I have heard on good authority that the man at PMC has a handle on this thread so is at least aware of the discontent on the street. Bad news is that every boss, has a boss! and at that level, they hear no crewroom gossip.. .. .Yozzer, gizza job, any job with lots of dosh!

[6nandneutral]

Back to the top.. .I feel I have to ephasise Yossers statement as follows.. . "I would settle for flying pay parity with my commisioned breathren and the said pay to be included as basic pay (pensionable)." . .I think that that move which hopefully has to come in some time i.e. the old chestnut of flying pay being taxed, but not included in the pension certainly gets my vote, and should please most if not all AA. I also believe that it would improve recruitment for AA from within the RAF.. .Edited due to a keyboard which Kant spel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 05 March 2002, 22:00: Message edited by: 6nandneutral ]</small>

[TimC]

I was just wondering. Isn't trade pay in the navy/army/raf pensionable? Isn't flying pay effectively trade pay?. .. .I apologise in advance if I am talking out of my arsse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> .

[maniac55]

Unfortunately the brief is get our numbers up by the most cost effective means, so irrespective of trying to make us happy if they can get away with it for free that is what they will do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . We would all like to see the disparity in flying pay ended and for it to be pensionable, but if our lords & masters think they don't need to then they won't. IMHO if they did it would kill 2 birds with one stone, retention & recruitment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .I know the AEOp who is going to be on the AAR and that he will fight our corner to the best of his abilities, but don't underestimate the task of changing the establishment ethos.

[Yozzer]

October 2002 will be the time that the truth will tell, cause then you can NGR whilst keeping the Apr 02 bribe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Can anyone clarify how quickly you can escape by PVR post 22 years service?. .. .Also, does this post "course" payback apply to every course or just your first OCU?. .. .Yozzer, a statistic waiting for the right time

[Baz Heath]

Yozz,. .. .Spoke to the nice people in SHQ only yesterday about this very subject. I went, armed with my PVR/NGR form in hand, and asked 'wots the quickest I can get out?' . .answer: 'As soon as you want Sir!' apparently, the secret is to have a job (any old job!) to go to and you can be out in 28 days. . .Of course the proffessional adminers will say 'Oh no, 18 months blah' but I am assured that it can be as quick as that.. .I am submitting mine probably next week, and giving them a couple of months notice (got to get your term'leave, resetlement leave in etc). .. .Come and join the masses Yoz, maybe we can set a Burger Bar together eh?. .. .forgive the crap speeling!. .. .MM

[Gripper]

Couldn't agree more with Maniac55.Worked with Mr W for 2yrs, back on the same sqn as he is now. Give him your best support boys, because as (Maniac55 points out) he needs it!!!!!!!!

[BEagle]

BoBus - getting more bulbous all the time on Sir Dicky's lot? Didn't know you'd made LHS on the '400 - well done mate!. .. .Out of our original course, all the pilots who haven't yet retired are now in the airlines (mostly Sir Dickie's) plus you, of course!

[ttthompson]

An' annuver fing...... SAR Winchies shafted with no recognition for thier Paramedic qualifications, no Paramedic/Aeromed pay, not even considered for an AIP!!. .. .But don't worry, the med techs that look after the monitors on Aeromeds are getting it. . .. .Consistency, the key to Airpower.

[left one o clock]

Just heard the NCO ac promotion board has been delayed from Jan/Feb to Apr/May. I believe this to be unusual. Am I paranoid? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .Any thoughts?

[The Mistress]

Yozzer - re first line of your 5 March post.. .. .The appalling double standards you practice on this bulletin board are truly amazing.. .. .As an aside, something which does affect the quality of life/standard of living of some SNCO Aircrew serving at Brize is the fact that the asbestos is finally being stripped out of their quarters. Something my old man played a part in bringing about.. .. .What do you think Mrs R*bs*n <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Baz Heath]

Ladies and Gentlemen,. .. .Lets all calm down and stop the sculldugary!!!!. .Yozz my dear Chap, you are offside and should say sorry (quickly I would suggest!)to the Lady.. .Lets get back to the focus of this item, and the fact that the poor old AA have been shafted yet again.. .I have it on good authority that the airships and staff officers read this drivvel! (see comments from Flaps 62 above) . .Well, to all Dear Senior Officers, if you do read this, please go public and answer the following points:. .Why, when it was acknowledged in the ARR, that the Army has NO shortage of SNCO aircrew, were they included in the scheme? And why, when it was acknowledged in the very same report that there IS a shortage of RAF AA, were they not? . .Have you all gone barmy, or am I missing something here?. .Sorry to drag you AAC SNCOs into this chaps, I'm delighted that your Officers look after you, perhaps you could send some over to us in the Light Blue maybe???. .. .In the meantime Yoz, patch up your differences with the mistress, and direct all that 'good intentioned' effort into fighting our corner.. .. .Any speeling mistake are all alckohool induced!#. .. .L & K. .. .MM

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse! The Cpl Crewman saga has resurfaced. Recently heard that this will be reviewed by PMA.

[cheapseat]

Gone are the days when it mattered what rank you were in HM Forces. Rank once stood for achievement with honour, which was seen as a worthwhile goal. It would appear, from this site and all the crew rooms I’ve recently enjoyed, that today’s airman (RN, Army or RAF), only works for money. With that in mind, what does Cpl crewmen matter? A Sgt AAC pilot will earn far more than a MAEop and even the RAF couldn’t let a Cpl ALM earn less than a Cpl Cook.. .. .Cpl crewmen would probably be one of the few things that would do ALM’s any good. I say this because this would effectively stop anyone from remustering to the trade and probably make the civvies wonder if it’s worth it. This, and only this, will put ALM’s on a par with AEops ie; not quite enough bums on seats but, more importantly, no one feeding the system from the bottom.

[lucky_b*]

We have just had a chat with AMP and the staish. Not much was actually said except that the original Aircrew Review which apparently did include AA was tri-service and was therefore a compromise all along the way. At any time any service could effectively red card any propositions being made which is what happened to us, either the Navy and/or the Army vetoed AA being in the last review. Thus we got nothing at all! Our latest review is also to be tri-service so whatever is suggested by the RAF review team has to get pass the Army and Navy as well as the treasury! And from the way the AMP was talking it seemed that there will be no distinction between AA just as none was made between OA. So if we're not short of ALMs and not desperately short of AEs then it won't matter that AEOps are few on the ground! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[maniac55]

Luck_b*. .. .I don't know if it was mentioned previously on this thread, but at the brief ISK got from the Wg Cdr doing the rounds that the Army guy said he would 'Die in a Ditch' and nothing would get through unless it included Army pilots (no distinction on Rank!). . .. .Yozzer. .. .The way I understood it was that the standard PVR time had been dropped to 12 months, due to the EU of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> , but NGR is still 18 months.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 13:11: Message edited by: maniac55 ]</small>

[currybuoy]

now firstly i hope this doesn't ruffle to many of my knockers feathers, i have been on the receiving end of the crap about this retention bonus for the past few weeks with endless comments about how the galley on the kipper jet is now self service for officers, comments about sizes of wallets etc. to be honest i am sick of the crap attached to this. how many of the officers etc are receiving the bonus? not as many as you would think, i am not a pilot and i work on a crew jet, however if they don't keep the boys at the pointy end no one goes flying. if they keep most of us down the back then we can be shuffled around to fit in the gaps. noone likes to see sqn's short on numbers but it happening and we have to get on with it, after all thats what we are here for. It saddens me to read of people suggesting that we should have a union, go on strike, or mutiny. i don't think that anyone can complain about the amount of money that any of us get as we don't do to badly, all you have to do is look at the cars, hoildays etc that everyone of my mates, officer or knocker go on each year. it's also a fact that most nco aircrew earn more money then junior officers when we arrive on front line sqn's due to the amount of time it take officers to go up the pay scale, yes i know whats coming the flying pay issue, but if you want the same amount of money as officers get paid then become one of them or stop whinging. the pay is all related to the responsibily on the aircraft, time and qualifications required to do the jobs and natural abilty. Somebody will always get paid more then you if you want the same then you have to do the same job.

[lucky_b*]

Actually currybuoy I think you have spoken plain enough for your ilk.. .. .I for one do not deny that they are desperate for fast jet jockies, fair enough give them a wad see if it works, but you and your kind are two a penny. They don't need any more of you but you still get the wad. Whereas we don't because the RN didn't want us too. Presumably the RAF did!!!!. .. .The flying pay issue has never gone away. In the eighties when you were a twinkle in at least your mother's eye, we were arguing with the powers that always be, to give us the same FP. Their answer then, was that FP had nothing to do with flying but was a means of targeting retention! Thus from an early age the RAF never wanted us as much as you. Then through the nineties when it was accepted at PMC that there was a shortage of AEOps, we were promised that they were looking at the situation, and that the most likely outcome was an increase in FP. Guess what, oh yeah, nothing happened!! . .. .Then finally we hear there is an AIRCREW Retention Review, perhaps something will happen, who knows, the situation is bad enough!! Ah but wait, no, the situation is known to be bad but only bad enough to have our own review. What will come out of it! Who knows maybe we'll get lucky this time!!. .. .I know how lucky I am to be doing this job! I know how well paid I am doing a job I actually like! But what really gets my goat! Is T%%ts like you telling us how lucky we are, whilst you reach into your back pocket wave your wad in the air and say tough to the rest of your crew. They are the guys who might save your life one day, even if it's only to stop you shredding the wrong bit of paper! But will you thank them, will you hell!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[currybuoy]

lucky b*, i for one am not getting the bonus and am unlikely to as they will have moved the goal posts again by the time i get to the appropriate point in my career, as i have some way to go, although i am not as young as you may think. Glad i got such a spicy reply and i am sure there are more to come but i will answer all replies in a fair way. You cannot expect to be paid the same as pilot and nav aircrew unless you do the same job. I agree that the guys i work with down the back may save my neck one day infact a couple of close occasions do spring to mind. i for one do not wave my WAD at anyone i have more sense than that, in fact i don't know anyone who does, if thats your perception then it is very misplaced. it may be how it seems to you but you are wrong, there are many guys especially at multicrew stations who are getting the bonus who have not told anyone. I realise that all branches are short of people nav's included so get your fact straight before you start sl***in other branches and people off for trying to offer a sensible view. If you were commissioned as either a pilot or nav you would get the same money, so stop whinging and do something about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 18:39: Message edited by: currybuoy ]</small>

[Charlie Luncher]

CurryBuoy. .. .I will with great glee watch you bleat as you approach your option point, hopefully post 2004 when your trade will be further overborne, and some faceless treasury official shafts you.. .It is essential to have pilots to fly us around however, it is also essential to have the sensor operators to achieve the operational task.. .. .As usual my blue blooded brother you miss the point it is not about money it is about mistreatment of SNCO aircrew. Everyone can move around on the Sqn to fill gaps, but those individuals do not get continuity of training with their own crew making professional advancement difficult, thus making AIPs and promotion more difficult, lowering of morale and into the downward spiral we go.. .. .As for the galley it always has been self service, it is just that some of your crew are better crew/team players than you. I am whipping up some special sauce just for you as a limited edition; you will be joining an elite bunch who have sampled it. I would give you their names but it would cost me too much beer.. .If you want me to elaborate on any points buy me a beer as I will always have a sharpened finger for you.

[Flap62]

Well curry, it took your accurate and brave comments to start seeing the real side of these "fabulously professional aircrew" down the back who are constantly waiting to "save our lives one day". Lucky_* - your comments about being nothing but a twinkle in the 80's give you away as one of those patronising old t**ts who think that because they've seen it and done it that the normal rules and regulations don't apply to them.. .. .Charlie Luncher - your comments are beneath contempt. We all know what you're alluding to and I hope that there are a good many of your brethern out there who shudder when reading your comments. In one short paragraph you have showed exactly where the them and us attitude originates and your pathetic schoolboy "reprisals" show why you lack the integrity and maturity to be considered as an equal partner to any officer, and therefore why you should be payed differently.. .I now fly with 19 year old girls down the back who have more professionalism in their little finger than they have in your whole body. Yes we've all flown with skippers who are complete to**ers but you grit your teeth and do the job to the best of your ability and prove that way that you are better than them. Overgrown schoolboys like you have no place in a modern airforce, and I am very glad to say, in a modern airline.

[Terry Rumble]

Lucky_B & Charlie Launcher,. .. .How right you are gentlemen. There is no doubt that we have, and will continue to get shafted as long as we have spineless and leaderless senior officers in charge of the RAF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . . . .Currybuoy, you should know better - so shut up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .FGLFB. .. .ps Dont rise to the bait offered by Flaps, he has been quiet for a few days, but appears to have taken another 'stupid' pill and stated slagging off AA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[currybuoy]

It's nice to see such an cheerful response from you CL. If its not about money then why has that been the big debate on most of the sqn's. Before you start making assumptions about someones elses trade check your facts! if you have a look at kinloss you will realise that all branches are short. i realise that you do suffer from crew to crew and the training suffers but that is the same for everyone. If your not complaining about not getting the retention 'bonus'(pse note) then why is that all you hear about? take luck b's comments above about wads etc! As for the galley when time permits i try to do my bit altough i have been told to stop making coffe as it tastes like tar! thanks for the offer of the special sauce, i always enjoy grown up comments like that. Flap 62, i don't know your history but don't get these guys wrong, they are amoungst some of the most professional guys i have ever had the pleasure of working with,99% are top lads and lasses who take pride in their work and it's great fun to fly with them. It make going on det an excellent experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Capt Widebody]

Currybuoy. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> i have been on the receiving end of the crap about this retention bonus for the past few weeks with endless comments about how the galley on the kipper jet is now self service for officers, comments about sizes of wallets etc. to be honest i am sick of the crap attached to this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Wake up and smell the lovely coffee which your knockers have made you. I don't think it's the FRI they are taking issue with. Based on your comments so far, my bet is that it's your attitude.. .. .You work on a crew jet, how about supporting the rest of your crew? If "go out and get a commission if you don't like it" is your answer, then you need a serious reality check, my friend.

[Charlie Luncher]

Curry Buoy. .. .Old fella my facts are correct as we had a chat with AFLB and Gp to get our view and insight on how we felt after the announcement. Large wads of cash were never mentioned by myself or my comrades, sorry but I am a realist and I would rather see a longterm change rather than a short term fix for a few old siggies who smell of wee anyhow.. .Money is an emotive and divisive subject and it easy for people to jump on the bandwagon - not my moneybag baby. As for shortages at Ice Station Kilo location is a player, the local mafia wish to stay and there are as many who do not. Heavy seas lie ahead but you can still buy me beer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Oh flaps you really have no idea - fool.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[currybuoy]

capt w, it is all well and good for you to sit there and comment on my attitude, actually the coffee the knockers on the crew make is very good, wish i could say the same for mine! unfortunately some of the people at kinloss don't have the same attitude as old charlie boy, and the money issue has caused frition between members of a few crews, i enjoy working on the nimrod as already stated, and would like to see the guys up to full manning, it was only the other day i was presented with a piece of paper by one of the guys stating that in the last year he'd not spent one school hoilday at home with his kids, now if we can solve the problem get more poeple in the it makes for a happier force and more efficent performance. the past few weeks have been awkward as the retention bonus has caused more than a few ripples. my point is that everyone is short of people and just as i can't expect to get the same money as a sqn ldr, some of the knockers can't expect to get the same money as a flt lt, i think that is a perfectly reasonable point. if only i could get sqn ldr's pay, would be nice!

[dave_g]

I have read with interest most, if not all of the messages over the last 3 months, and apologise if I repeat what has already been said.. .. .I too was at the Nim(South) briefing on 8 Sqn a couple of weeks ago, and yes, it all sounds plausible, a review aimed specifically at AA, as opposed to being added in at the last minute when lumped in with our officer aircrew bretheren. But lets be real world about this, we are not going to get any of the money that the O's are getting, in fact we won't get any of it. There have been some interesting comments about the fact that Innsworth accept that a number of us will leave at our 22; this is not the case, and Innsworth expect that most of us will stay on beyond 22. We can really f**k there planning by leaving at 22, I for one will be doing so. (And that comes from the previous postings man, who I know well). It may not do me any good to leave at 22, but hopefully it will benefit the rest of you guys (and gals).. .. .To me, if you want to get on in life... get out.. .. .I have seen the light and it is time to go. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 00:39: Message edited by: Yeller-gait ]</small>

[Flap62]

Oh dear Charlie L, it seams that you neither have the memory span or the mental age to understand any of the posts I have written over the last few months and it has taken one of your own (see above) to reinforce my points. Officers have now got a retention package because pilots had marketable skills in life outside and so, when they'd had enough - they left. This caused a lack of bums on seats and so the retention package was introduced. As a by product of this, Officer rear-end crew benefited even though there was less of a retention problem there. The other option of leaving (in your 30s or 40s) without an instantly marketable skill (civvie aviation is becoming a 2 crew world) requires a certain amount of balls - this is admirably demonstrated by your colleague above.. .So in summary if you want to see your lot improved you either have to have a marketable skill or to have balls. It would appear that as you are content to sit here bleating, you have neither.. .Put your money where your mouth is and leave if you're not happy. The money comparrison with Officers that you work beside down the back end is false because their package is driven by pilots and they are the ones who "drive" the whole retention issue. If you think you can expect to persuade their airships that you are as valuable commodity in the current (or any future)market as the pilots, then prepare to be disappointed.

[Baz Heath]

Charlie_L,. .. .you are so right in your comments, as is Yeller gait above. Sadly, I have seen the light and will soon join the great civilian world outside.. .I regret that there is absolutely no hope of anything coming out of this latest review for AA, and frankly anyone who thinks otherwise needs assessment! I do however, admire their will to give it yet another chance.. .. .Flaps 62, I have read the postings in this forum made by you, and have come to the conclusion that you are a complete ar$e. You are happy to spend all of your time slagging off everyone who makes any derogatory comments about the way AA have been, and continue to be treated. Your comments are plainly those of an ignorant fool, who has no place in todays modern Air force. You want us to believe that you are a good bloke, and know 'whats what' And yet you have been asked in this forum, on more than one occasion, to offer advice to AA about the best way forward, but have declined from doing so. Why I wonder? . .. .You could have made a real name for yourself here, but instead you have chosen to act the fool, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Are you really an officer? surely not.. .Do us all a favour, find a dirty stinking little pit somewhere, crawl into it and rot.. .. .Power to the Flight deck. .. .MM

[Flap62]

Dear God, how plain do I have to make it. I have given the most economically valid advice here on numerous occasions but here goes again. You are not "worth" as much as pilots and therefore you need to :. .. .a) stay, enjoy a good standard of living and stop wingeing. .. .or. .. .b) put your money where your mouth is and leave.. .. .Clear enough?

[Baz Heath]

Flaps my dear (sad) chap,. .. .all those people were right, you don't have a sensible word to say - you are an ignorant fool sir.. . . .Like FGLFB I will not get into a slagging match with you, nor will I rise to your bait.. .Please, go away and rot.. .. .MM

[Flap62]

Magic - it may take a while but when all of the current studies and working groups decide yet again that there is nothing new in the pot for AA, then you may realise that that is the reality of life. I am not "insulting you", merely stating the truth. You were on your high horse because I did not take the opportunity to give AA advice on how to better their lot. The long and the short of it is that I do not think that your lot needs bettered at the expense of other things. There is only so much money in the current, very small pot, and it has to be spent where it's needed. As the recent proposals show, that is with the pilots. Unfortunately for you that meant that rear crew Officers had to get the same deal - having your nose rubbed in it is never pleasant but sometimes that's life. The focus of the Air Force must be flying ops and this cannot be conducted without the pilots in the cockpit. Wait I hear you cry, it can't be done without crew and quite rightly, but as some of your colleagues have pointed out, that can still be done. Yes some people will need to be swapped around and work out of position. Not ideal for many reasons but the show can still go on. This is rarely the case with the pilots - they therefore are the key element. Combining this with the pull factor from outside (lower at the moment but give it 12 months) and you see why they get the better deal. This is simply the reality of life in any business, which lets face it, in the days of post NMS we most certainly are in a business.. .For all the huffing and puffing of "that's it I'm off", we all know that you'll still be here next year and the year after because most of you don't have anywhere else to go. The sad truth is that the Air Force knows it to, and thats why you won't get a better deal. I'm sure that this will provoke pages of bile, but believe it or not, that is not my intention. Unfortunately, sometimes the truth hurts.

[C130KBloke]

Hi Guys. .. .I think we have lost the thread here!!! It seems to have turned into an Ice Station Kilo...Crew Thang.... .. .For what it is worth ..as AA myself...I expect little from our Paymasters (the treasury)...our betters (the Royals) or our peers ( the other guys trying to make a decent go of it)..... .. .Nuff said....SFS

[barry007]

Guys, unfortunately the truth does hurt. I dont believe that AA will. .benifit from any financial package, however realistically we do not. .get paid that badly for what we do.. .On the other hand most pilots are only taxi drivers getting us where. .we need to go to do the proper job.. .Without AA who would clean the Sqn and do all the gash jobs because . .certainly on my Sqn most the officers are to jack to clean up after themselves.. .(when we're not moaning about money)

[covec]

Flap62 is correct in what he says, lads.. .. .There are 2 realistic options:. .. .1) Try(!!!!) to put up with it all. Make a career out of it. Enjoy your families and friends, any time off, spend cash, save cash, build a mansion...whatever it takes to make Ice Station Kilo in particular, bearable.. .. .2) Leave - either remuster, commission or get a marketable skill. Change your life.. .. .Although in to 55, I have decided to leave at my 22 point in 3 years. Military education grants have helped me on the way to an OU Degree, and I am now qualified as a commercial pilot - with plenty of networks to ensure that I am employable one day.. .. .We are doing ourselves a dis-service here on this thread.. .. .What do we really want? How many of us actually applied for AEOp - but were "hoodwinked" into maritime by CIO & OASC? Are our complaints caused by the cynicism of RAF recruiters filling numbers requirements? Certainly the current recruiting poster for SNCO aircrew is a downright lie i.e. ASTOR is not even available yet; and we all know that if you want early promotion you must be at HMP Kinloss on a Nimrod sqn.. .. .Lets give the review a chance.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 14:28: Message edited by: covec ]</small>

[Baz Heath]

Flaps,. .. .Thank you for your enlightening comments. Of course you are correct, and we AA of (very) long standing know that only to well, however...... .. .The sad thing in all of this is that RAF AA were sacrificed for the sake of RAF Officer aircrew, and that is what is wrong.. .. .There is no doubt about that, ask those very senior officers that were at the review. I don't mean the senior RAF Officers, but those from the other services. The meeting was concluded with those officers from the Navy and the Army voicing their utter shame and disgust that the RAF Officer element had 'sold the RAF AA down the river' in order to safeguard their own 'wedge'. .. .To lots of us, that is nothing new, but it has shown, particularly to the other services, that RAF officers are in a league of their own when it comes to 'being an officer'. .. .At the same meeting, it was commented that:. ."Army officers are trained and expected to look after their soldiers,. .Naval officers are trained to look after their sailors,. .and RAF officers are trained to look after themselves". .. .Regretably that is absolutely true, and on my sqn many honourable officers are utterly ashamed by what has happened, patently you are not, and that sir is wrong.. .. .I have no idea of your background or indeed what flying badge you wear, but reading the tones of your previous postings, I would assume that you are one of those arrogant two-winged master race, who firmly believes that their $hit don't stink!. .. .You have taken great delight in slagging off many AA over the past few weeks in this forum, and for that you should also be ashamed. . .. .When FGLFB openly asked you for advice and support (following your 'a jag mate of mine blah') you scoffed at the opportunity and slagged him off. When Yeller_gate and Charlie_L have made comments, you have dismissed those also. . .Your comment refering to 'put your money where your mouth is' purely indicates the lack or real leadership and officer qualities you posses, or maybe don't. Is that the way you want the air force to run? people staying in because there is no job outside for them? Is that the sort of leadership qualities that you are taught and promote?. .. .I regret Sir, you are very typical of todays modern RAF Officer, self first, self last and anything left over self first again!. .. .Like those before me, I will not rise to your bait again, but will simply wish you well in your carreer. With your attitude, you will undoubtably go far!. .. .MM. .. .all speeling misteaks are cos of alcohool!!

[Flap62]

MM. . .Your comments about leadership are interesting. In my experience of working on several FJ squadrons I have found that everyone pulled together to get the younger guys trained up and ready to take their first steps up the "management" ladder. From the top down there was a concerted effort to ensure that support and guidance was given so that the individual was given a thorough grounding in the basics. As well as helping him to progress professionally, it also might just stop him from flying into a hillside. A lot of this work is done by the "middle management" of Flt Lts, who often work long hours to support the chain, both above and below them. This to me is the essence of "leadership", in action day to day. Yes its not as glamorous as leading the troops into battle, but it has to be done none the less. . .. .From comments such as those from Charlie_L (which I'm appalled that you stand by and yet see fit to claim the moral high ground) it is obvious that a different set of rules operate in your world. There have been numerous threads on pprune from AA telling of how they "showed the new co/skipper/officer who was really the boss". This attitude ranges from leaving bags behind on Det to Charlie_Ls strange quasi-homosexual behaviour. This ingrained attitude has also been relayed to me by many ex-AA over a few beers. . .. .I have never witnessed such an attitude on an Officer aircrew only sqn. By this I do not mean that life is always rosy, of course there are frictions and you get the same self serving gits who will trample anyone in their way, but there is an atmosphere of everyone working towards the same goal. . .. .Have you ever stopped to put yourself in the position of a newly arrived FO at the front of a Nimrod? Constant snyde remarks over the intercom from "hairy old AA" putting the young pup in his place, turning up on Det to find that some wag down the back has pi**ed in his kit bag - don't deny it goes on because I know for a fact that it does (Charlie-L proves as much). You constantly complain about officers generating the "them and us mentallity" and only looking out for themelves. Have you ever stopped to wonder if it's not the culture of - "I've been doing this for 20 years, you shut up and drive" that has eroded the mutual respect that is needed. There must be a common link because the attitude of "lets humiliate the new boy to put him in his place" simply does not exist on any FJ sqn I have seen and if you try to tell me it doesn't in your world, just pause before you do and use the search feature to re-visit old threads.. .. .Leadership, like trust is a two way street. For an efficient, professional outfit there must be effective leadership at all levels. There has been a surplus of leadership on all FJ sqns I have served on at almost all levels. Instead of pointing the finger at your officers, why don't you look around and see who erodes the trust and respect on your unit. You may find that the blame lies uncomfortably close to home.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: Flap62 ]</small>

[Terry Rumble]

Flaps,. .. .Oh God, I'm going to do it again, and rise to your bait. I'm sorry, but you do talk such utter hogwash, I just can't pass up this opportunity.. .. .Now, where to begin with this latest load of drivvel you've written?. .. .Oh yes, taking the pi$$ out of young FO's on a Nimrod sqn. Well I can honestly tell you that I have never ever known anyone urinate in anyone elses kit bag, never ever, not even Nimrod aircrew! I have had a JO throw up in my Nav bag on a Nimrod before, and another one chucked up in my helmet bag! But, what the heck - it all washed out.. .. .So what is the problem then? can't young 1st tourist FO's take a bit of pi$$ taking from the 'hairy old Masters'? Oh dear, how sad.. .. .Now lets get on to some serious $hit........ .lets talk about the traditional 'blowing up' of the good old mess piano. Oh I nearly forgot, that's ok for you Officers isn't it? Its 'high spirits' and 'charachter building' (sorry, I forgot about that) well I'm quite happy to play by those rules but as you and I both know, you boys get away with it, we (AA and everyone else in the RAF) do not.. .. .Finally lets talk about something thats really childish....em.....lets see now.....I know, lets play 'set fire to your fellow Aircrew Officer in the Mess' guaranteed to go with a bang!! Was that high spirits, or could it possibly have been just a bit childish?. .. .You are the limit, you have the nerve to accuse AA of childish and petty behaviour. Take a good long look at your own breed Sir.. .. .You have nothing to crow about, you are no better, than most other aircrew from all three services. Your pompous 'FJ sqn' attitude simply confirms all those thoughts that MM, Charlie launcher Yeller gait and all the others think about you. As you say, you are interested in helping out those junior members of your FJ sqn, and that does you credit. However, your help should not not stop at just helping only your officers. Take a good look at QR's and see what your TOS say about looking after ALL your 'juniors'. .. .Lastly, I have known MM for many years, and can assure you that he is a man of genuine integrity and loyalty, and is committed to helping anyone, unlike yourself. As far as he and his fellow Masters are concerned, his one and only TOS under QR's is to be there for 'the guidence of junior officers' enough said!. .. .So there, I've joined in again after I said I would not. Rant over, time for a lye down.. .Good luck to all you FJ JO's, and I'm really sorry for having taken the pi$$ out of some of you over the past few years!. .. .FGLFB

[Flap62]

FGLFB,. .. .I must not have made myself clear - so apologies. There is nothing wrong with a bit of banter between ranks and within a crew, in fact I would say it is essential. The value of a well timed bit of banter in deflating an ego is priceless and I'm sure that a happy crew is a much more productive crew. What I see is the problem , as I said, is the "I'll put him in his place and show him who's boss" attitude. You may say that this doesn't occur but in my experience and in conversations with quite a few ex-AA now out of the service, it does happen. I would also refer you to my comments about the threads that have appeared here over the last year or so regarding jolly japes. Most of them harmless, many highly amusing, but more than a few tinged with the rear end mafia flexing their muscles to show who they though was boss.. .. .Regarding your comments re pianos and high spirits. I've re-read my post and can't see where this has come from! I think it is one of the great tradgedies that over the last 10 years the spirit has been knocked out of a great many aspects of service life. I think that there should always be a place for high spirits (whatever the rank) as long as no harm is done and all is made good in the morning. If my last post suggested otherwise, it was not my intention.

[Charlie Luncher]

Flaps old fella. .. .You should not believe all you hear in a bar, . .you really dont have a clue do you?. .. .My poor misguided man, you should maybe ask to fly with an mixed crew as an education as I think you would benefit from it.. .As for special sauce your recipe is wrong!

[Green Bottle]

CL,. .. .Here, here.. .. .You only really appreciate the nuances of operating in a mixed Officer/SNCO crew when you have actually done it. I have a lot to thank the SNCO's and Masters who took me under their wing as a junior shag on the Sqn. Leadership works both ways, as you say Flaps, and I hope I have been able to show the junior crewmen some of that same leadership.. .. .Many of the comments on this thread are remarkably similar to the sentiments amoung pilots and navs before the retention bonus was announced. Methinks the vocal opinion of Officer Aircrew may have in some way helped this bonus to come about. Yes you could bury your head in the sand and say 'AA dry your eyes', but I seem to remember the comment 'there isn't a nav retention problem;' and then there was! . .. .GB

[TheSeeFarShadow]

I'd hate to interupt the slagging match, yes Flaps62, you sir are an arse.. .. .Onto the stuff we should be talking about then:. .It's clear that we won't be getting any finacial gain from the AA review (even if the review isn't really mouth music), so what could we 'haggle' for on the non-finacial side?. . . . ****Quality of life****. No 1 for me, I can only really speak as an AEOp, but here are my suggestions: -. .. . 1. Postings - There are alot of AEOps that like Kinloss. Let them stay there. There are people at Kinloss who don't want to be there, post them down south. PMA - Look at posting preference on ACRs for a change.. . 2. Same rule applies to everyone, no favouritism. Put the right man in the job, not someone you were mates with on a sqn and do them a favour.. . 3. If people want to stay flying, let them. Don't say you 'are to' do a ground tour now to further your career. (we know that AA don't really have a career). I don't know if it still applies, but there used to be a rule that if you were a B cat, you weren't allowed back flying for 5 years. Crap. . 4. What about (more?) exchange tours for AA.. . 5. Leave - Let everyone use their entitlement of leave each year.. . 6. If Master Airmen AIRCREW don't want to go back flying, take their flying pay away. If they object they either do as they are told (like the rest of us) or leave (more promotion prospects for FSs). .. .Just a few suggestions I quickly came up with while getting bored reading P1$$-Flap's drivel.

[Baz Heath]

CFAR,. .. .couldn't agree with you more mate!. .. .I have consistantly suggested that say every two or three years, ALL the AEOps (and it would work for other AA also) all get together with the PMA wizards, and we sit down and thrash out the next round of postings. After all, there arn't that many of us really are there?. .. .Like you say, many people want to stay at Kinloss, and many don't. There has to be a better way of improving the quality of life by sensible negotiations. I have heard recently that a posting to Cranwell is regarded as a 'rest tour' for ex Kilo AEOps!! and yet when I speak to mates over on applied flight, they tell me they are working their nuts off! so whats that all about?. .. .Of course we will never please everyone, but it would please a lot, and at least those who don't get what they want immediately will be able to see that we are including a modicum of common sense into the posting equation, and it would give them some hope and encouragement.. .. .As for us old masters, well yes you are correct again. But the problem with masters however is (and you will be more familiar with this at Kilo that I am down here) that good old PMA decided on the composition of the Nimrod fleet and crews, and therefore, what do you do with a master who doesn't want to do a ground tour? Do you 'force' him into a ground tour or what? That negates one of your most valid points above, about forcing people into unwanted ground tours.. .. .I have done a couple of ground tours, and in the main I hated them, and did everything I could to get out of them. But, like pma say, where do you go after you have been a Nimrod B cat for 4 years and there are no slots available on any sqns?? It's a big problem.. .. .Sadly, this is now all accademic for me, as I have decided to call it a day and have pvr'd. A sad situation after 30+ years, but a necessary one I feel. . .. .Our problem has been that we have had no one at the top who has been prepared to argue our case. If you look at the way that the fighter controller branch have effectively 'taken over' the E-3D world, you can see just how invaluable it is to have someone high up batting for your side. We have had no one and, I regret to say it, I doubt we ever will. . .. .Having said that, someone will soon have to take the problem by the scruff and sort it out. We are approaching an interesting point in time, with lots of AEOps approaching 'decision time' and I fear that the majority of them will simply vote with their feet. Perhaps when that happens, and a few of your Kilo Sqn Cdrs reflect that in their stats returns to group, strike blah, maybe then will someone take a realitly pill and reverse this appalling trend.. .. .Take heart CFAR, things cannot get much worse, although I seem to remember having said that many times before!. .. .All the best. .. .MM. .. .any speeling misstakes is coz I is pi$$$ed

[PPRuNe Pop]

As this thread is now at 196 it might be a good idea to close it, and for some to re-group and take the weight off 'things'.. .. .Feel free to start another Mk11 version.. .. .PPRuNe Pop. .Administrator. [email protected]. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 10:25: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]</small>