US Recon Marine

[Ali Barber]

This is a great snippet from the public domain (i.e. unclass) http://cwm.mengi.net/s/contrib/blackeye/2gunsfiring_v1.gif

Message from a Recon Marine in Afghanistan
Published: November 11, 2001
Author: Saucy Jack
The following was read on the Sully and Scooter (Radio KOGO in San Diego) Show Saturday, November 17th.

Just outside of Ab Gach, in the northwest panhandle of Afghanistan between Tajikstan and Pakistan. November 11, 2001.

Bizarre,

It's (expletive) freezing here. I'm sitting on hard, cold dirt between rocks and shrubs at the base of the Hindu Kush mountains along the Dar 'yoi Pomir River watching a hole that leads to a tunnel that leads to a cave. Stake out, my friend, and no pizza delivery for thousands of miles. I also glance at the area around my ass every ten to fifteen seconds to avoid another scorpion sting. I've actually given up battling the chiggers and sand fleas, but them (expletive) scorpions give a jolt like a cattle prod. Hurts like a bastard. The antidote tastes like transmission fluid but God bless the Marine Corps for the five vials of it in my pack. The one truth the Taliban cannot escape is that, believe it or not, they are human beings, which means they have to eat food and drink water. That requires couriers and that's where an old bounty hunter like me comes in handy. I track the couriers, locate the tunnel entrances and storage facilities, type the info into the handheld, shoot the coordinates up to the satellite link that tells the air commanders where to drop the hardware, we bash some heads for a while, then I track and record the new movement. It's all about intelligence. We haven't even brought in the snipers yet. These scurrying rats have no idea what they're in for. We are but days away from cutting off supply lines and allowing the eradication to begin. I dream of bin Laden waking up to find me standing over him with my boot on his throat as I spit a bloody ear into his face and plunge my nickel plated Bowie knife through his frontal lobe. But you know me. I'm a romantic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: This country blows, man. It's not even a country. There are no roads, there's no infrastructure, there's no government. This is an inhospitable, rockpit (expletive) ruled by eleventh century warring tribes. There are no jobs here like we know jobs. Afghanistan offers two ways for a man to support his family: join the opium trade or join the army. That's it. Those are your options. Oh, I forgot, you can also live in a refugee camp and eat plum-sweetened, crushed beetle paste and squirt mud like a goose with stomach flu if that's your idea of a party. But the smell alone of those "tent cities of the walking dead" is enough to hurl you into the poppy fields to cheerfully scrape bulbs for eighteen hours a day. And let me tell you something else. I've been living with these Tajiks and Uzbeks and Turkmen and even a couple of Pushtins for over a month and a half now and this much I can say for sure: These guys, all of em, are Huns. Actual, living Huns. They LIVE to fight. Its what they do. Its ALL they do. They have no respect for anything, not for their families or for each other or for themselves. They claw at one another as a way of life. They play polo with dead calves and force their five-year-old sons into human cockfights to defend the family honor. Huns, roaming packs of savage, heartless beasts who feed on each other's barbarism. (Expletive) cavemen with AK 47's. Then again, maybe I'm just cranky. I'm freezing my (expletive) off on this stupid (expletive) hill because my lap warmer is running out of juice and I can't recharge it until the sun comes up in a few hours. Oh yeah! You like to write letters, right? Do me a favor, Bizarre. Write a letter to CNN and tell Judy and Bernie and that awful, sneering, pompous Aaron Brown to stop calling the Taliban "smart." They are not smart. I suggest CNN invest in a dictionary because the word they are looking for is "cunning." The Taliban are cunning, like jackals and hyenas and wolverines. They are sneaky and ruthless and, when confronted, cowardly. They are hateful, malevolent parasites who create nothing and destroy everything else. Smart. Pfft. Yeah, they're real smart. They've spent their entire lives reading only one book (and not a very good one, as books go) and consider hygiene and indoor plumbing to be products of the devil. They're still figuring out how to work a Bic lighter. Talking to a Taliban warrior about improving his quality of life is like trying to teach an ape how to hold a pen; eventually he just gets frustrated and sticks you in the eye with it. OK, enough. Snuffle will be up soon so I have to get back to my hole. Covering my tracks in the snow takes a lot of practice but I'm getting good at it. Please tell my fellow Americans to turn off their TV sets and move on with their lives. The story line you are getting from CNN is utter (expletive) and designed not to deliver truth but rather to keep you glued to the screen through the commercials. We've got this one under control. The worst thing you guys can do right now is sit around analyzing what we're doing over here because you have no idea what we're doing and, really, you don't want to know. We are your military and we are doing what you sent us here to do. You wanna help? Buy some (expletive) stocks, America.

Saucy Jack.

[Recover]

Oooo Rah, Marines. Them Devil Dogs sure can write good.


Semper Fi :cool:

[Rolling Map]

This is the sort of rubbish your average inward looking american is going to believe.

If anything September 11th should have taught them is that they have to try and understand other cultures. You will never totally stop the age old blood shed unless you are willing to understand and have the patience to make a difference.

Lets hope the man in command has a better respect for the afghans than this marine does. If not its a long long war he is going to be fighting, and just like vietnam public opinion wont tolerate thier brave marines being sent home in body bags.

Rolling Map :mad:

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: Rolling Map ]

[kbf1]

Assuming that this "letter" is for real:

1. The SAS would not be honking about being cold, wet, and pi$$ed off. Given that you are so far removed from the nearest pizza parlour war must be hell for you.

2. I am glad to see that living in a country that is demographically so diverse that you see the human value of culture. Or is it only acceptable to have a diverse cultrual make up so long as it is within America? Cavemen? or Afghans from a country beyond the hallowed shores of the US?

3. Huns? I suppose that the gang warfare on the streets of LA where people are murdered simply for wearing the wrong colour would be the living example of the American Dream? I suppose the tribal wars that have taken place in Afghanistan, although practically the same as gang-warfare in LA, is the neanderthal un-civilised barbarity of cavemen. After all, if they were American it would be ok to fight?

4. I am glad to see that you have the humanity to recognise human suffering. It must be so gratifying to think that were it not for the US needlesly carpet bombing Afghanistan there would be no refugee camps to feed these sub-human cavemen. And after all, they should be so grateful for having their houses bombed into oblivion in return to having a few TV dinners dropped out of the back of a Herc. Who needs strategic deployment of ground forces when you can save some decomissioning costs of getting rid of some old 1000lb-ers by dropping them on an already backward (i.e. non-American) country.

5. I suspect that your opinions were formed by watching CNN while eating the pizza you are so angry can't be delivered now.

I dispair of attitudes such as these as they drive politicians to decimate a country for the sake of TV publicity and votes. I was pilloried in another thread for saying that the US cannot accept that not everyone wants to be an American. I have experienced first hand the contempt for anything non-American that so many Americans hold. :mad: It is no surprise to me that matey wrote what he did. Sad really. :rolleyes:

[ 09 December 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]

[Tourist]

Thought it was quite funny myself. Just slightly suspicious that a us marine writes quite that well to be honest.

[fobotcso]

So did I! And it's a good read, too. There's no pleasing some people.

[X-QUORK]

Yeh, those bloody Americans and their carpet bombing, what a total waste of time !! :rolleyes:

Oh....wait a minute, no.....it was a complete success.

KBF - what's your definition of carpet bombing ? Sorry, but you're starting to sound like one of those people from CND who know sod all about modern warfare, only that "it's bad".

[Ali Barber]

I didn't think it was real - I got sent it by a marine for one thing. It just made me laugh when everyone else seems to be looking at the gloomy side of life. Cue for a Monty Python song.....

[West Coast]

KBF
Your ability to overlook the same problems in Britain while criticising the US for same is remarkable, or better said hypocritical. I used to live in a suburb of LA, for the most part it is a safe place with great weather. Without doubt there are areas I wouldn't want to get caught in, Compton comes to mind. I would no more want to get caught there than in the impoverished areas of Oldham, Burnly or Leeds. I believe the Asian immigrants have even coined a term for areas of those towns, "no go white area". I could be killed for the color of my skin. I understand I might be safe in Glasgow, there the white youth gangs are the ones in charge. Takes alot of courage to stand with your gang at the entrance to the high rises in the city center (sorry, for those Euro-centric, centre) and beat up on immigrants. Remember the riots in Bradford? Your equal to the KKK even has a recognized political party, my memory fails me, I believe its called the BNP, perhaps the national front.
The gang members in LA are at least allowed to travel abroad, the low grade terrorists called British soccer hooligans are banned from many European countries for their actions, what an embarrassment to your country and the good people that make up the vast majority. You mentioned you were panned on another thread for saying that not everyone wants to be an American. I cant help but feel that some Brits dont want anyone but white immigrants to become British. I doubt you will find any consolation in that I agree with you, I have traveled extensively and have found life outside the US, the gold coast down in OZ comes to mind. In the US we have a tremendous problem, we have alot of work to do This is in no way trying to diminish the problem here, but just to show you as a hypocrite. The UK has alot of work ahead, I suggest your angst could be put to some use in your backyard prior to looking abroad to point out the same problems you have domestically. I imagine you will broadside me with race problems again here in the states, can't deny it, but I can one for one do the same to you.

I suspect you have never been in the military after some of the comments I have read of yours. I worked with all branches of the Brit military, found them to be professional and dedicated, however they complain about their surroundings, pay, food, superiors etc as well I as I ever could. A complaining soldier is a happy soldier. You can deny it but I doubt very much you ever served your country or you would know better. I am always happy to debate but your credability is gone. You post only to get a rise, I recignize you for that now.

[fobotcso]

West Coast, remember the Red Warning at the bottom of the page. KBF writes only on his own behalf, and I disassociate myself from his uninformed remarks.

I write as one who has lived amongst you for several years and worked alongside aviators from all the Services.

Please don't overestimate the gloomy news about Britain that you may get from time to time on TV and in the US press. Ours is, on the whole, a safe and happy country and we have an enormous respect for yours.

[West Coast]

Fobot
I certainly recognize the UK for what is good. In the Irish household of my parents I took alot of abuse for choosing to spend the bulk of my honeymoom in London and only quickly visiting Dublin. The people there have treated me favorably and I have nothing but fond memories of London and the country as a whole. I also have a great deal of respect for my counterparts in the military there. The Royal Marines are in my opinion the finest fighting force bar none, I tell that to anyone who will listen.
What I do take issue to is posters like KBF criticising the US with his holier than thou diatribes when the same problems exist in his own country.

[MajorMadMax]

West Coast...gotta agree with you on the Royal Marines, damn tough lot they are, and I am even happier they enjoy their work so slugs like myself can stay in the Air Force (same applies for submariners!). There are several threads going at this moment that are US. vs UK vs. the world vs. etc, etc.; and they are all getting rather boring. I have been lucky enough to work with militaries from lots of countries, from both western and eastern Europe, and needless to say there were things about them and their countries I liked and didn't like or agree with, but overall I respect them for being fellow brothers-in-arms. This is especially true with Her Majesty's forces, a great bunch, well trained and justifiably proud of what they do.

My point (I was getting to one...) is that all these personal opinions are just like a$$holes, we know everyone has one but most of us really don't want to hear it! Regardless of what the US Constitution says about free speech, it does not require me to listen to what every moron wants to say.

By the way, I got this same letter via email last week and even mailed it to a bud of mine in the RAF. I can’t tell you if it is truth or BS, doesn’t really matter as much as it’s a pretty amusing read!

Cheers!

[kbf1]

Let's address a few points:

X-Q...CND? no, just witnessing mission creep and I am unhappy about it. The original terms of reference for any action in Afghanistan were purely to root out O B-L. This then went to military advice to the Northern Alliance, to figting alongside the Northern Alliance, to the stated ambition to remove the Taliban and install a pro-western government, to threatening to act against Iraq. While I agree that the Taliban and Iraq are odious regimes, the original justification and terms of reference did not include current military activities. My issue is that now the Afghan people are synonymous with the Taliban and from the early days of the bombing campaign the force outweiged any response and was not measured. The argument that the infrastructure of the Taliban was being put beyond their use has a hollow ring with me when the net result is that innocent Afghan people are being subjected to relentless waves of bombing. We as a nation are not at war with Afghanistan or it's people and this troubles me. If the policy makers had stated objectives and methods that had not shifted I would not be so uncomfortable. Therein lies my definition of carpet bombing, the use of mass, "dumb" ordinance with a view to denying major infrastructure.

WC: Lots to agree with there. *I* am not a hypocrite because it is not within my powers to make policy decisions on home issues in the UK. If it were, I would be looking to fix the problems we have here before exporting solutions overseas. Certainly we have a race issue here, much different to that in the US. We should be looking to eradicate political extremism of the sort espoused by the BNP, who I find personally odious, as I do not see that they are any different to O B-L in many ways in hat they seek to destroy what they do not understand. Again, football hooligans do us much shame in their antics abroad and actions should be taken to ensure that they do not export their brand of thuggery abroad. As for my background, I am a serving officer in the Royal Logistics Corps as people here well know. Your view on my credibility is a matter for you. I do however have a number of views on the matter of US foreign policy, and the lack thereof, opinions I have every right to hold. The fact that you disagree with me on the issue of US foreign policy and the handling of events post Sept 11th does not deny me the right to be critical. If the US as a body politik could address the insular nature of its thinking I believe it would go a long way towards identifying an purposeful outlet for what to do with its post cold war military. I believe that it has become a victim of its own muscle flexing in the past 10 years as Britain became a victim of its own colonialism after the end of WW2. Although I may post some comments here that are blunt, they do at least spark a debate that I think needs to be had, namely the way the US and her allies use their military assets. It seems that without a standing army in Eastern Europe to counter the US has taken to using force to readily and overtly than it would have ever got away with 15 years ago. If we are not careful we may go down the same route.

Fobotsco: You are quite right, I write on my own behalf and I do not expect anyone here to either agree or support some of my views. You are quite welcome to if you wish, but I believe we yet to find common ground on any single issue, which is quite OK in my view.

So, the issue with respect to this letter is in the interpritation. Many of you seem to believe it is a tongue-in-cheek for of satire. That wasn't the way i read it, but if it was perhaps it was well aimed as the purpose of satire is to exaggerate the truth, therefore was I really so wide of the mark? If I had been so far wide of the mark would so many US contributors been so upset? Only you can answer that. WC, for what it is worth, your comments have given me cause to think about the nature of the problems here in the UK, as well they should. I have to say though, you have been quite quick to slam the UK in other threads and I am surprised you don't see fit to consider that some people in the UK or elsewhere may take issue with US foreign policy and the perceptions of the rest of the world that we have seen US citizens and servicedmen hold towards us. I have heard a US Marines Capt claim that the UK played no dicsernable part in the Gulf War, and he believed what he was saying. While I accept the fact that every country has it's fair share of idiots (the UK being no exception) and that as a country with 10 times the population of the UK you are more likely to have 10 times the number of idiots, what worries me is when the views of seemingly intelligent people leave me aghast either in their nievety or their scorn.

[West Coast]

KBF
Re-read your initial post and try to tell me its not inflamatory. Your right to an opinion and to express it is without question. Your right to be taken seriously however is based on the credability of your arguement, not on your right to hit the post button. Each of your points looked to raise dander and nothing else. You preached about the gangs in LA killing each other, what does that have to do with US foreign policy you keep harping on, how is it differant to the white supremists killing immigrants in Glasgow? Again if you want to discuss it, do so in an adult manner. When however you preach from your pulpit as if it doesn't exist in the UK, firstly pisses me off(until I figured out that was your cause for posting)and it makes you look like a hypocrite. How is it your providence to criticise us when in your backyard the same is happening? If you want to dicuss gangs in LA for some off the wall reason, have at it but dont pretend your not experiencing the same. This but one point but it is endemic of your post and other posts in the past. Indeed your own countrymen try to distance themselves from you. I give props when due, you last post was written in a rational manner but does little to unconvince me that your not trolling for a fight.

[Liam Gallagher]

KBF1,
You claim to be an Officer in the British Army; I am amazed as to how uniformed you are. Before you comment on US foreign policy you should at least try and understand it!

The original terms of reference of the campaign were never "to purely root out OBL". Every American spokesperson from President Bush downwards has been at pains from Day One to state that this is not limited to one man. Equally, you shall recall the mantra about those who harbour terrorists are the same as the terrorists themselves. That is why the Taliban went on the shopping list, not mission creep, just clearly stated Foreign Policy. Further, how on earth can we get at the terrorists which is not, and never was, limited to OBL, but includes Al Queera and anybody else that slithers out from under the rocks, if the Taliban harbour them? How would you have dealt with the Taliban- by fax?

I certainly take exception to your stance regarding "Carpet Bombing". I am unaware, and I note you furnish no examples, where the US has bombed with dumb, or smart ordinance, in a manner that blatantly disregarded the safety of non-combatants. In the circumstances the US has been amazingly restrained, given that they have some 4000 reasons to be unstrained :mad: :mad:

Whilst you have the right to express your opinions, you also have the duty as an Officer in HM Forces to be informed on current affairs; I suggest you get informed and fast because US foreign policy and HM Govts policies are amazingly similar! :eek: :eek:

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]

[kbf1]

WC: After re-reading my posts last night and sleeping on the issue and waking in a better frame of mind today, I concede that the tone of the post was both petulant and un-necessary. If the tone of the post caused offence, which was not my intention, then I offer an unreserved apology.

There are a number of issues, which while not well made, are valid, and I will come back to them at a point in the future because I don't think it appropriate to do so now, because if an apology is due I don't want the argument to detract from that.

[Tourist]

It appears I was wrong about kbf1. I thought he was indulging in a little old fashioned banter, but it appears that he is just a t#at :) :rolleyes:

[kbf1]

What? as in The War Against Terrorism? :eek:

[Tigs]

Some people are really starting to irritate me on this thread.

KBF you haven't said anything wrong mate, you are intitled to your opinion.

Fobotsco, that was one of the most obsequious replies I have seen. Nobody was associating you with KBF. You write and say "I disassociate myself from his comments", do you think we are all sat after reading KBF's post thinking "MMM I bet Fobotsco thinks like that too".

West Coast I have worked on mil ops with the USA for years. By the sounds of it you are better of staying on the West Coast, for you understand UK policy as much as you claim that KBF understands yours. What are you talking about "the White supremists in Glasgow killing off minorities". I think one person has been killed and one injured (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong), the gangs in LA murder 5 on a good day and 12 on a bad day. When you talk of the gangs, it seems that you are proud that at "least they are allowed to travel abroad whilst we ban football hooligans from doing the same", your statement amazes me, what on earth do you mean? You also make a fairly sweeping statement that all KBF's countrymen distance themselves from him (are you convinced of this by Fobotsco? I think from your last post that it is you that is actually writing to get a reaction.

Liam G stick to singing songs. Before you start quoting an officers duty, and stating how close US and UK defence policy is, think about what you say. Our policy is very similar, when the US want it to be. Now after the US has suffered the dreadful tradgedy of Sept 11 and terrorism has been well and tuely brought to it's doorstep, it decides to go on a war against global terrorism, and quite rightly we back them, the sooner it is cleansed the better. But I do not recall the US wanting to send Delta force into Northern Ireland during the atrocities there. Did you know that Several thousand people have been killed there Liam and West Coast?, London has been bombed many times and it has all been fed by money (around $30 million a year) from the US. Now that the US chooses, it is all wrong and bank accounts of terrorist organisations have been frozen, it's just a pity we did not have a "similar" policy years ago. What would you do Liam? carpet bomb Belfast or Crossmaglen? I don't think so.

West Coast, I support the US and the current fight against terrorism, but don't you start hitting us with this "White Supremist S***" it has got nothing to do with the post by KBF. I wonder if Fobotsco would now like to disassociate himself with your last post aswell?

:mad: :mad:

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Tigs ]

[Liam Gallagher]

Tigs,

Deep breaths and calm down.

My post to KBF1 referred only to events in Afghanistan and you will get no argument from me on the points you raised about NI.

Indeed, KBF1's reply of 20:02 of the 10th was very gracious and a fine example of how we should aim to conduct ourselves in these trying times. Good on him I say!

LG

[Tir renrie]

Tigs,
Outstanding statement, probably the best post i have read on this sight for many a long while.

:)

(Chinook excluded)

[MajorMadMax]

If I may, I personally am a bit irritated with the recent news on what "other" countries will do if they get UBL before the US. Now, before you go predicting what I am about to say, since as you can see by my profile I am an American living in Texas, hear me out as you may be surprised. What bothers me is the overall consensus that if caught UBL should be turned over to us. Well folks, I disagree. If UBL is captured I think he should be taken before an international tribunal in Den Haag (The Hague). As much as I would personally like to see him die for his crimes, we all know capital punishment is an option if this route is taken; but in all fairness there were citizens from a lot of other countries that perished in the September 11 attacks and they have a right to the same judicial process as we Americans.

I will not kid you in stating I wouldn't be happy to see UBL sent to meet his maker via quicker and more brutal methods, as I am sure the author of the letter that started this thread is eager to conduct; but we all must remember that after any vile incident such as 9/11 we must maintain our ethical standards otherwise we are no better than the animals that committed these cowardly crimes.

Just my two cents/Euros...

[fobotcso]

Tigs, you said "kbf....you are entitled to your opinion." But you don't think I'm entitled to mine! Evelyn Hall (not Voltaire any more) would not be impressed.

It really is best not to become irritated over all this. None of it means anything and folk never change their opinions, so stay loose.

Your spirited post loses some impact through becoming personal and a lack of attention to detail, but I have no quarrel with your passionate remarks about NI and the Irish/American money that has helped to sustain the conflict. But it has only helped. There have been several other external contributors over the years. But enough, if we are not to incur Danny's wrath. Others may care to read the reference:
http://www.nio.gov.uk/pdf/secstats.pdf

You give nothing away about your persona as a relatively new arrival under that handle so you have no credibility yet. For myself, I am a British patriot with robust views about wimps and yoghurt-eating tree-huggers. I also owe a great personal debt to the US and hold that nation in high esteem even though it is no more perfect any more than the UK is/was. But tolerance and forgiveness of lapses of behaviour amongst friends is essential.

I, too, acknowledge kbf's emollient remarks and "apology" to WC. I would have been even more impressed had he not weasel-worded it

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]

[kbf1]

Let's go through some of this, for the avoidance of any doubt:

The comments about LA gangs were to highlight the extrapolation of an argument. If we accept that both a "tribe" and a "gang" share a common social construction and both have a feudal modus operandi in terms of settling disputes over territory, then we can accept that there is perceptibly no difference between he two types of group. Therefore when either a tribe in Afghanistan or a gang in LA fight over territory it is fair to say it can be considered feudal. Therefore the only difference between the two in practical concerns are the perceptions of the outsider. Therefore if the author of the letter perceieves the Afghan fighters as "Huns" then he either also perceieves street gangs as Huns, or he differentiates purely on the basis of the nationality of the gang or tribe. Further, the issue was not about comparative race issues in the US or UK, but about commonly held perceptions which deny a degree of persona and humanity to one nationality while imparting it on another. This at an intellectual level is no better than the purpetrators of the 11 Sept atrocities.

What bothers me is that politics has lost its will to lead and now follows public opinion, and therefore winning an election becomes a publicity contest and a race to the finish line. If we as voters begin to view the Afghan people as somehow sub-human because they do not share a common culture then we run the risk of falling to the lowest common denominator of opinion, and the net result is a policy that reflects opinion. The danger then is that the US (and any other involved nation) starts to bomb Afghanistan because it is the poular thing to do, not because it is the strategically right thing to do. It also needs to be noted that the only people that are really loosing out right now are the innocent Afghans as the middle ranking Taliban will at some point be offered an amnysty and most likely a piece of the aid pot to keep them onside. Meanwhile the remaining roads and infrastructure will have been denied to those that need them most.

The comment was made that I used the term carpet bombing without substantiating the claim. Without being able to recall the exact dates of the incidents or the names of the locations, but there was much coverage in the UK of a Red Cross aid station that was hit not once, but twice as well as a village that was raised to the ground resulting in numerous civilian casualties (though i accept that the press could not verify the exact number of civilian dead, and in any case it was far less than claimed by the Taliban). This evidences the claim that bombing in this scenario is indiscriminate even when carefully planned not to be.

In terms of alignment of US and UK policy, one example of this not being true is Colin Powell's comments in Paris yesterday about the UK leading a multi-national peace keeping force that was rebutted when he arrived in London. It may be that the US wishes the UK to take a lead, but it is not in the UK's best interest to become bogged down in more peace keeping operations given the current recruiting issues in the army, and the over-commitment that already exists as a result of peace keeping operations, especially in the supporting arms.

MajMadMax: a good point well made. I think the one thing that the US will find difficult to accept is that any international court in The Hague would not hand down a death sentence. To be fully effective, and to send the right message OB-L needs to be tried, convicted, and condemned by an Islamic court and the sentence carried out in such a way so as not to give cause for the followers of his brand of hard-line Islam to be able to say that he was put to death as a result of an infidel court. They will still say he was put to death because of the West, but they cannot claim he was put to death in the West. It would also deny him the Martyr's death he so desires, and nothing acts as a better recruiting aid than martyrdom, and he knows that.

[ORAC]

Gladstone:
"Remember the rights of the savage, as we call him. Remember that the happiness of his humble home, remember that the sanctity of life in the hill villages of Afghanistan, among the winter snows, is as inviolable in the eye of Almighty God as can be your own."

Speech at Dalkeith, November 26 1879

Spoken in the middle of Britain's second Afghan war (Britain's first (1838-42) and second (1878-80)). The first ended in the slaughter of 16,000 people, the the army and its camp followers in the British exodus from Kabul.

A remarkably Christian sentiment considering the circumstances and the age!

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: ORAC ]

[West Coast]

Tigs
I trust you feel relieved after your diatribe. I welcome discussions here about US foreign policy, its one of the few constants. What I cannot accept is the hipocracy preached to by those who have a hard on for the US, its policies etc, when their own countries actions are not exactly as pure as the driven snow. The mention of US funding for the IRA is an embarrasment to me as a first generation Americam of Irish descent. In the very recent past, Israel estimated that 7 million pounds of the 45 million Hamas recieved from overseas came from the UK. I should hope that the same ourage I feel is shared by you.

[Desert Dingo]

Looks like the original letter is all B*llSh!!t anyway.

Claim: An expletive-filled letter from "Saucy Jack" detailing conditions in Afghanistan was penned by a Marine serving there.
Status: False.

Although the article has been presented as true on the radio, that shouldn't sway anyone into believing it's the real thing, because radio show hosts are notorious for reading on air items harvested from the Internet that have proved to be fictions.

No doubt this piece is so popular because it contains much that Americans would find appealing. Besides the interest (and novelty) in hearing from a soldier right on the front lines of a war in which we're engaged, it gives voice to ideas that many of us want to believe: that our soldiers are brave and tough (neither a scorpion's sting nor its supposedly transmission fluid-like antidote fazes Saucy Jack the Marine); that our armed forces are a well-organized, technologically advanced fighting machine up against a primitive enemy from a backwards country; that our foes are our inferiors, morally as well as militarily; and that the media often don't know what they're talking about, and we'd all be better off if they just butted out and let our servicemen do their jobs.

Is the story at least believable? Not really -- the narrative is rife with errors and inconsistencies: for example, Ab Gach, the panhandle, and the Hindu Kush mountains are all in the northeast portion of Afghanistan, not the northwest; scorpion antivenin is injected, not drunk; and a true "Recon Marine" wouldn't be broadcasting specifics about his position and mission to the world at large. If this really was the work of a serviceman in Afghanistan, he was deliberately trying to be misleading or funny, not to convey an account of real events.

The "Saucy Jack" letter is as popular as it is because it purports to give insight into the day-to-day reality of a soldier in the field that CNN fails to provide. News emerging from the war in Afghanistan seems rigidly controlled, and the people back home are hungry for information that is not forthcoming. A missive such as this one thus falls on highly receptive ears.

Check this link (http://www.snopes2.com/)for the full version.

If it was intended to stir up a reaction it has certainly succeeded. :D

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Desert Dingo ]

[fobotcso]

Oh No! I suppose you're going to tell us now that there is no such person as Father Christmas.

{Having a bad day is when you can't even type a one-liner without cocking it up!}

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: fobotcso ]

[Flatus Veteranus]

Kbf1

If the opponents of the "war on terrorism" feel able to disparage the latest OBL video as a "stitch-up", surely the supporters of the air operation can be equally cynical?

What is an "innocent Afghan civilian"? Any male big enough to a hold a Kalashnikof seems to pick one up at the start of the shooting season. Kipling alluded to the treatment meted out by tribeswomen to wounded soldiers in the "Afghan wars" and recorded the practice of "keeping the last round for oneself". The Russians were less coy in the '80s and described the standard treatment as having one's tongue removed and replaced by one's genitals.

What is the obvious, observable difference between "innocent civilians" and the Al-Qa'eda? How are you so sure that the village wiped out was not full of the latter?

Does it not strike you as odd, in view of the sophisticated intelligence available to the US that the same Red Cross post was hit twice? Does that not incline you to wonder what was going on there?

I think most people mean by "carpet bombing" the sort of city-busting that went on by night in WW2, when the achievable CEPs were so awful that the only way to have a reasonable chance of taking out a plant was to demolish the city. Sticks of dumb bombs droppped from B-52s and B1s are quite different using current delivery techniques.

I think the RAF is going to have to think again about its ability to deliver conventional ordnance over useful ranges in uncontested airspace. One can imagine a single largish airframe combining this role with AAR and perhaps MR.

[kbf1]

Flattus, I suspect the jury will be out on the video you refer to for a while. Certainly the Arabic countries have denounced it as a forgery, however the Americans have gone to great lengths to analyse the manerisms of the key players in the video and have compared it to other videos he has made in recent months. It appears to be genuine.

The fact that a number of Afghans possess guns does not make them either supporters of Al Qaeda or the Taliban, or indeed the Northern Alliance. There is a real danger of this "war" becoming a war against Afghanistan de facto, and not a war against any one faction. It would be synonomous with us bombing XMG and denying roads and infrastructure used by Protestants as well as Catholics under the cover of a "war against terrorism" in response to any supposed act of terrorism committed by, say, the Real/Continuity IRA. The real loosers in all of this are going to be the civilians in spite of what the outcome of the campaign in Afghanistan might be. The winners, however, will be the corrupt local warlords who will cream off cash from any locally deployed aid. If we are to learn anything from our experience in the Balkans and the aid given for re-devel;opment we need to find a way of getting it to the people it is intended for without allowing local "Mr Bigs" to gain.

As for the Red Cross centre, I suspect that the conspiricy theories will abound in the same way they did after the Chinese embassy was hit in Belgrade. It could have been anything from a simple error, to a deliberate atttack, to poor planning. I can't give an answer to that.

It should be noted though, that carpet bombing can still take place even though smaller net areas are laid to waste. As for the RAF's AAR issues, it would be hard to see a PFI provider flying over the theatre of ops.

[MajorMadMax]

kbf1

You took a good idea and made it better, although I really wonder what the outcome of an Islamic court would be. if Usama was tried in one.. :confused:

As for the video, is there anyone out there that honestly believes UBL was not involved with the attacks of 11 Sep? I think the best summary was provided by the UK Prime Minister's office, which is too lengthy to include here but I can email to anyone who desires a copy. It states clear facts and concludes that the attacks of the 11 September 2001 were planned and carried out by Al Qaida, an organisation whose head is Usama Bin Laden. That organisation has the will, and the resources, to execute further attacks of similar scale. Both the United States and its close allies are targets for such attacks. The attack could not have occurred without the alliance between the Taleban and Usama Bin Laden, which allowed Bin Laden to operate freely in Afghanistan, promoting, planning and executing terrorist activity.

No free nation is safe from these extremists, they have their own interpretation of Islam and the Koran and have decreed a jihad against all non-Muslims. So the last time it was New York and Washington, but next time it might be London, Paris, or Munich. The video was just one small piece of evidence against UBL, what is more important is building the case against him and his terrorists that the Muslim world will accept.

Well, just my two Euros...

Cheers!

[Kiting for Boys]

A Mil Pal tells me there's a modern version of the 'Goolie Chit'... is this true?
http://www.victoriansatwar.net/archives/letters_1.html

ps I'm 'Quartered Safe At Home' and have no personal interest so sorry if I intrude