Pilots protest over flying hours

[fireflybob]

Pilots protest over flying hours (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8289953.stm)

Airline pilots who say long flying hours are "putting lives at risk" are to hold demonstrations across Europe.

European air crew unions argue current rules governing how long they can fly for are unsafe, with fatigue a factor in 15% of accidents.

But the European Aviation Safety Agency says it is still considering a scientific report on the issue.

There will be no demonstrations in the UK because industrial action by pilots is outlawed.

British pilots are expected to join demonstrations on the continent with colleagues from 35 other countries.

It is not clear whether the action will cause disruption to travellers.

Pilots and air crew have complained that their working conditions have deteriorated as the airline industry looks to cut costs.

The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said two million leaflets would be handed out across Europe by the protesters.

The general secretary of Balpa, Jim McAuslan, said he feared that attempts by the EU to standardise working conditions by 2012 would put more pressure on pilots.


This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected
Jim McAuslan,
British Airline Pilots Association

He said: "Only fatigue experts understand the impact on a body of flying through so many time zones, having consecutive early starts and late duties and all the other factors that make up a pilot's life.

"At the beginning of this year some of the most noted fatigue experts in the world presented their report which concluded that the EU rules were indeed unsafe.

"This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected."

A Department for Transport spokesman insisted that safety would not be compromised by the new rules.

He said: "The European Aviation Safety Agency is in the process of considering the responses to its consultation on a first draft of rules establishing flight and duty time limits.

"While these are unlikely to be finalised until some time in 2011, we are confident they will maintain the same high level of safety as the current rules.

"The safety of passengers and crew is our top priority and we will not allow this to be compromised."

[Devils Advocate]

Wrt 'no demonstrations in the UK because industrial action by pilots is outlawed'.... err, since when did being a civilian pilot prohibit one from taking industrial action?!

[Rwy in Sight]

Devils Advocate,

My understanding, of my beloved BBC text, is that pilots are not allowed to hold demonstrations in the UK. Industrial action might be ok.

Obviously English is not my first language.

Rwy in Sight

[Boxshifter]

Well, I think that joining any form of protest, meeting or demonstartion during the time you are NOT on duty, meaning in your free time, is not a form of industrial action or strike. I am sure that "even" in the UK vereybody is free to join any kind of peaceful protest.

As far as I know there are NO industrial actions, some would call it strikes, planed.

The plan for today is, to make the travelling public aware of the problems caused by long duty hours etc.

[411A]

The 'public' does not care...they want cheap fares, period, especially the bucket and spade brigade.
These 'demonstrating' pilots are waisting their time.:rolleyes:

[wiggy]

I'm afraid you've hit the nail squarely on the head...most of the UK travelling public regard spending more than 10 - 20 quid on an airline ticket to their holiday home/stag night/shopping haunt in Europe as being "ripped off".

[Capetonian]

Daily Mail version :

Exhausted pilots 'putting millions of passengers at risk' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218146/Exhausted-pilots-putting-millions-passengers-risk.html)

[pointless username]

From the BALPA website (courtesy of Sepla).
How rosters could look under new EASA rules.
http://www.balpa.org/Document-Library/Rostering---Scheduling/FTL-Rosters-EU-Regulations-2009-10-05.aspx

[FFG 02]

Pilots tired of Emirates | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/emirates-pilots-warned-authorities-about-fatigue-long-before-near-fatal-accident-in-melbourne/story-e6frf7l6-1225782474754)

[L337]

pointless:

Is it not pointless to post a link that requires the user to login to a "secure" site?

[Guava Tree]

P.Username says in post #9 of this thread

"From the BALPA website (courtesy of Sepla).
How rosters could look under new EASA rules.
http://www.balpa.org/Document-Librar...009-10-05.aspx”

It seems to be not possible to access this document without being a BALPA member.
This pprune is a planetary website, so it should be understood and tolerated that the vast majority of us are neither members nor potential members of BALPA (British Airline Pilots’ Association)
If this is an important document for international consideration so please cut copy and post the document here.
Thanks.

[Bernoulli]

For those of you in the UK.... why not join BALPA over this crucial issue and help protect yourself, your colleagues and the travelling public. For those outside the UK, perhaps your own union could help you with their interpretation of the proposed rules.

For those souls either unfortunate enough to live somewhere that does not allow unions and for those too short sighted to choose to belong to a pilot union then why not try searching for the source document yourselves (Brussels/Strasbourg?).

[Guava Tree]

It looks like BALPA thinks that it can make progress on this without any help from outside.
We will see.

[tocamak]

On what do you base:-

It looks like BALPA thinks that it can make progress on this without any help from outside

Balpa is working with the European Cockpit Association (ECA) on this (and other issues). If you mean without help from those outside of a recognised union/association who have just tagged along now then yes I suppose Balpa/ECA would prefer to work in that manner.

[carlrsymington]

"The 'public' does not care...they want cheap fares, period, especially the bucket and spade brigade."
Oh yes I ******** well do. If I thought an airline was working their crew into both our graves (smoking hole in ground?) I would NOT fly with them or be quiet. At the moment I think the number of hours is OK but the combination of lates & earlies concerns me.
regards,
Joe Public

[Ace Rimmer]

You can find out more in about this on the IFALPA website International Federation of Airline Pilots' Associations - IFALPA (http://www.ifalpa.org) (current edition of InterPilot) and also in the press release section.

[Capt H Peacock]

Pilot has hangover - Daily Hate camped outside house, thrown in jail, gallows constructed.

Pilot physically and mentally exhausted - Who cares? Overpaid prima donna. Sack him if he goes sick.

I fully expect my noble colleagues to be totally ignored.:ugh:

[sky9]

I went along with Pilot Pete some years ago to lobby my MEP who was the "raconteur" if that's the right word, when the initial legislation was passed at the European Parliament. It was quite clear that the individual concerned hadn't a clue about fatigue or the issues involved (not bad for a Labour MEP). His view was the legislation should be passed, then reviewed and changed if necessary. His first 2 ideas came to fruition and the review showed that the legislation was fatiguing.

Legislation in the UK still requires pilots not to fly if they are fatigued or if they consider that the rostered flight would make them fatigued.

Simple solution is don't to do the flight and fill in the sick form with the simple word fatigued. No manager would dare to touch you.

[Firestorm]

What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.

[Barden]

Firestorm, unfortunately BALPA has it's hands tied behind it's back by anti-union legislation and the very nature of many pilots, who are quite content to stand by and barrack from the sidelines without contributing anything for the common good - I'm thinking in particular of the free-loading element, i.e. non-members.

[Human Factor]

What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.

They sorted the Manchester ID card scheme for one.

[framer]

No manager would dare to touch you.
I know planty of places where you would be down the road in a flash.

[noooby]

Would this be a good time to bring up the fact that LAME's/AME's/A&P's in most parts of the world don't have duty time restrictions, late shift/early shift restrictions, are expected to work the same day that they arrive at work even if travelling through multiple timezones (12 timezones for me in fact), and yet nobody seems to be interested in commissioning a study on the affects of fatigue on maintenance crew and the affect that it poses to airline safety or aviation safety as a whole. Interesting.
If anybody does know of some such study for engineering staff, please PM me with details, I would be very interested to know.
Yes it is extremely important to ensure that aircrew are well rested for their duty day, but perhaps think about the mechanic who works 11 hour shifts on the ramp, 6 days a week, on a 7 month contract for one of the larger aviation companies in the world. I sure needed a rest after that one! And no, that type of contract is not unusual.
Perhaps after the pilots in the EU get their lot sorted, and I hope you do, there will be some sort of flowdown affect. I doubt it though, primarily due to the fact that most aviation companies see maintenance as an expense that they need to try to minimise, instead of a tool that can be used to minimise downtime.
I'll now get down off my soapbox. Duty periods for engineering staff is a pet hate of mine!! You might have been able to tell.

[Dream Buster]

Here is a helpful list of possible symptoms from BAE (at the end of the link), which may be experienced from contaminated cabin air - familiar anyone?

Head normal, headache, light-headed, pressure in head, ‘moon-walking’.
General normal, dizzy, faint, giddy, vague lack of concentration, poor co-ordination.
Alertness normal, fatigued, tired, sleepy, somnolent, exhausted.
Emotions normal, relaxed, euphoric, elated, ‘drunk’, intoxicated, irritable, morose, pugnacious.
Eyes normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Nose normal, dry, irritated, burning, streaming.
Throat normal, dry, irritated, burning.
Breathing normal, shortness of breath, breathless, laboured breathing, rapid breathing, pressure in chest.
Stomach normal, nauseous, vomiting.
Numbness or Tingling none, scalp, hair-roots, nose, lips, fingers, toes.
‘Blueness’ none, lips, nail-beds, finger-tips.

http://www.aerotoxic.org/download/docs/technical_info/BAE%20E-SIL%2021-146-RJ-536-1.pdf

I had most of them, but crippling fatigue was by far the worst.

DB :{

[Steamhead]

I did shift work from the age of 18 to 42,various types of shift systems in different jobs.
I came to the conclusion that when you are young, shift work is not a problem but as you get older it starts to effect your health.
I took a daywork job at 42 with a considerable reduction in salary.Felt much better even though the job had a higher stress level.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Maybe if the public knew how often pilots fall asleep whilst they're on their way to Spain (and everywhere else) they might think again.

I've flown dozens of sectors (as have many of us) when the other pilot was asleep for part of the trip - sometimes without knowing it - and on one occasion denying it as he had no idea he'd drifted off!

I've never fallen asleep myself, but I've been EXTREMELY fatigued - and on one occasion developed a 'poorly tummy' to enable me to get off the duty in between sectors because I couldn't function property I was so tired.

I'm sure the public have visions of two, fit, alert individuals flying the aeroplane when, in fact, they are almost certainly fatigued to some degree and possibly asleep.

Happy days! not

FOK

[BEA 71]

411A is absolutely right, if it is not cheap it is no good.
It is about time that air fares go up to enable airlines
to earn enough money to invest in new aircraft etc.,
pay decent wages to their staff and offer them good
working conditions.

[Piltdown Man]

Several points need making here. Firstly and most importantly, you don't fly if fatigued. Therefore, you have to follow your company's protocol for informing that you are not available for work. If undue pressure is then placed on you to work when you are not fit (or an invitation for tea and biscuits), then file a Chirp report and also make sure your union is on your case. Should you be at work and find yourself fatigued then make a Pan call, write an ASR and other such paperwork. You may even have to divert. That will get their attention. However, you should have been clear in your own mind that you were convinced before departure that you could safely complete the flight.

Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home. Again, another union matter.

Lastly, you are a Union member, aren't you?

PM

[Piltdown Man]

What difference do you think BALPA will make? In my experience the grand total of the square root of diddley squat.

Speaking for myself, I'm in profit and will be both for the rest of my career and thoughout retirement. The new hours will not affect me either - our working time agreements are more restrictive than the legal FTL. So from me, it's thumbs up to our CC, past & present and BALPA.

Don't forget, your union is you and your collegues. So are you saying is that your collegues are not very useful?

PM

[deeceethree]

Secondly, your company owes you a duty of care regarding the hours you work vs your trip home and are duty bound to make sure that you are not so knackered you can't safely drive home.Are you sure about that? Perhaps you could give us a legal reference, or similar, for that? I 'd be curious to know more about it!

[Piltdown Man]

If you die in an car crash as a direct result of driving whilst fatigued, you and your company are responsible. You for driving and your company for making you fatigued. I can't give you references, but we have agreements from our company that following certain duties (extended on the day) you will be booked into a hotel at your home base - because they have a duty of care towards us. Again, another union negotiated entitlement.

PM

[PPL_DK]

A few weeks ago the Danish Association for Aviation and Diving Medicine had a very interesting lecture by John Caldwell, Ph.D., USA,
Understanding and Managing Fatigue in Operational Aviation Contexts
The presentations are available here
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fatigue_workshop_2009_a[1].pdf
http://www.flyvdyk.dk/upload/cph_fatigue_workshop_2009_b.pdf

The "official" page for the European Campaign is here:
www.dead-tired.eu (http://www.dead-tired.eu)

PS I've posted this previously under the FAA thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/379102-faa-starts-expedited-review-pilot-rest-rules.html
but thought Caldwells presentation deserved another mention.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Piltdown Man

Firstly, no disrespect.

I don't know if you fly or with whom, but if you try that approach with the low-cost carriers it is, in my experience, unlikely to succeed.

I hope the carriers have changed in the past few years, but if either flightdeck or cabin crew with a certain 'colourful' airline tried the trick of reporting 'sick' on a regular basis action was taken against them. Heaven forbid you told the truth and said you were fatigued because you were working five or six days 4 or 6 sector days on the trot! I got very tired having worked a minimum 12 hour day, then an hours' drive each way each day. That left 10 hours 'home time' of which, by necessity, at least 8 hours was asleep. So 2 hours at home awake max. No wonder I binned airline flying in the end. It just wasn't safe when the (then) Captains were falling asleep and expecting me to be sufficently awake to do the navigation, 'flying' and RT - and eat and complete the plog and talk to the pax. Was it unsafe? I don't know. Would we have passed a sim detail or carried on like that with a training captain on the jump seat? NEVER!!! So it can't be right can it?

It didn't happen all the time obviously, but it should never have happened at all.

I appreciate that airlines vary and I should hope that the likes of BA have more favourable roster patterns than the budget airlines.

It was never about quality of pilots - I've flown with test pilots and ex-BA, RAF, Army, Navy, Virgin, Singapore airline pilots for example - some of the best around. But no matter your background or training we are all humans and (most) humans need adequate rest.

Deprive them of that rest and people cannot act at their best day-in day-out no matter who they are.

I've had one of two near misses due primarily to the fatigue of either myself or the other pilot which now I have 'retired' are of anecdotal interest only. If the passengers had only known how close to death they were!

Not sensationalism, just airline experiences during several years in the job.

It's no life either being constantly tired - with all the stress that places on relationships. Most of my contemporaries were either single or divorced. I know 'happy' relationships exist but in my experience they are few and far between (if everyone is honest to their partner!!!). Stress causes more stress.

Some examples:
Captain fell asleep due to fatigue - when awoken he had no recollection of the flight (didn't wake him because a thought it better he was awake for the approach rather than the cruise);
Captain misread the approach plate and I was too tired to spot the error. 50 people were almost killed as we descended to within a few hundred feet of the ground in cloud;
Captain (ex-RAF instructor) told me to take control as he was so tired he needed to sleep. He slept for 90% of the 3 hour sector to Spain. Awake for only the take-off climb and approach;
'Colourful' airline ops called to say crew were tired and needed to complete duty in AMS - also over Captain's Discretion. Vote taken and all crew agreed ops should be informed. We were told either to complete the duty or change aircraft and fly the shorter sector to Luton. Then get a taxi home (5 hrs in total) - Hobson's choice. In the end we flew back to base. Tired and out of hours (try the Piltdown Man approach in that situation).

Stories abound and in this case most are not exaggerated - but the vast majority are never told - what happens in 'Vegas stays in 'Vegas!

The effect of age has an affect too (of course). No doubt that is one of the reasons BA pilots are retired at age 55. Where do they go then - the likes of easyjet and Ryanair of course! Five to ten more years to build up their pensions, live a good life, or pay off the wife/wives and provide maintenance for the children.

As we all know CAP371 was never designed for this method of working. The winners are the passengers. Let's hope no one reading this is ever killed by a fatigue related accident. Maybe they and the family they left behind might wish they'd paid for a more expense ticket?

Maybe the airline that tends to charge for every extra imaginable could charge an extra €10 to guarantee a 'fatigue-free' crew!

FOK

[SR71]

One wonders if patients would be irritated if their GP's fell asleep during their consultations, or perhaps, surgeons, during their operations?

The average GP is now paid £106K according to the Telegraph a few days ago...

I'm paid nowhere near that...

[Sky Wave]

FlyingOfficerKite

It sounds like you are talking about the same colourful loco that I've been employed by for the last 3 years. I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to.

Perhaps you left more than 3 years ago?

I've been tired at work, but 9 times out of 10 it's my fault as I've been up doing stuff when I should be going to bed. Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for.

I've had one captain that I can recall suddenly kick out the z's without warning. This captain was well known for it amongst other FO's and he also did lots of flying instruction on the side so he was probably burning the candle at both ends.

If we do feel tired we are allowed to take "controlled rest". That means you can close your eyes for 20 minutes and the other person knows what you are doing.

If we use the word fatigued we are off the flight with no questions asked. If you continually do it they will obviously start asking questions. How far do you drive in? Do you do other work on the side? Does the baby keep you up all night? These are things that an individual must manage and they are not the companies responsibility.

I'm not saying the job doesn't get tiring because like any job you will be more tired by the end of your working week. But if it's too much, just call in fatigued. Most people complain about early starts but they don't cause me a problem, I find the 5 days of 10 - 11 hour, 4 sector late duties the most fatiguing.

To summarise, I don't want to suggest that everything is rosy as it is hard work, it is tiring and we definitely could not have any relaxation of the current rules. But your depiction of the colourful loco is not accurate, at least not post 2007.

[PT6Driver]

Because this is EU legislation it will override national legislation and protocals - so CAP 371 etc will cease to exist. All of you with wonderfull FTL agrements will find them replaced by EASA legislation and you will not have a legal leg to stand on.
Action must be taken now to alter the legislation so that it acounts for the overwhelming medical evidence regarding fatigue.
This is our only chance to do somthing because the people who draw this stuff up don't care about evidence or facts ( they ignored their own reports) they just care about looking good passing all these laws and earning brownie points.
Companies will alter their FTL rule to the lowest available as soon as they can unless we do somthing now.
Question since when was I not allowed to protest when off duty? The police managed it so why cant we? Not that we live in one of the more restrictive western democracies.:oh:

[PT6Driver]

SR 71 - doctors falling asleep?
when my wife had to go into hospital late one night the junior doctor who did the initial examination fell asleep on her feet whilst briefing the consultant!
so yes they have very fatiguing hour all in the name of geting trainee doctors to see as many patients as possible.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

PT6 Driver

As i understand it a UK Airline could apply for CAP371 as a derogation when EASA kicks in?. Why didnt any UK Airline apply for sub part Q when it came into effect?

Piltdown Man
Don't suppose you could find out what your Union / Airlines thoughts would be for the taxman of offering accomodation at home base after a lengthy duty. I presume the crew member makes no contribution to the cost of hotac? :\

[Piltdown Man]

Total costs absorbed by the company as this expense was a incurred wholly as a result work after a long and unplanned duty. No tax liability. However, we are also able to swap the Hotac for a Taxi fare home, again no tax liability.

And chaps, are you guys (FOK in particular) telling me that Lo-Cos's are dangerous airlines to fly with because the crews may be fatigued and prefer to fly in this condition than call in sick? If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for.

If we want any understanding from the public we must be able to show that we have integrity.

PM

[fireflybob]

Let's be honest, if you have a 4:30 report you do need to get to bed at a reasonably early hour. That's the nature of the job and is the case no matter which carrier you work for.


Sky Wave, I agree with much of what you say but the problem can be when you go to bed early but cannot sleep! Not so bad after you've done one or two earlies but can be challenging on the first one.

I think there is also some difference between short term tiredness due to lack of sleep and long term "battle fatigue" caused by weeks of irregular rosters.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

To answer the comments, my experience with 'colourful' loco was over 3 years ago - a bad period in some respects and I think things may have improved.

All I have stated is factual about incidents and lifestyle at that time - that's how it was for me and that's how it felt at the time. Period.

To say that aircrew are worse than the airlines - If this is the case, you are doing the wrong job because you morally you are worse than the organisations you work for. - displays a complete and utter lack of understanding of both the airline industry and the psyche of pilots.

Many pilots are ex-military. It is hard to explain (I don't fully understand the mentality) but many seem to feel if they don't 'complete the mission' it would be a kind of failure - lack of moral fibre - to admit they were tired and fatigued. I have never fully understood the 'pilot mentality', probably because I have always worked outside of aviation as well as within it. If you stand back pilots are a breed to themselves in some respects.

To be tired or fatigued is subjective and I have seen pilots who are completely drained turning up for work as if the future of the Nation depended on them.

Personally I have only 'bailed out' once due to excessive fatigue. Maybe I should have on more than that one occasion? (and I felt guilty about that - as though I was 'soft', wimpish, can't take the pace)

My policy was to carry out the 'handling' sectors when I was bright and bushy tailed and 'non-handling' sectors when I felt jaded. Trouble occurred when we both felt like that!

If, as Sky Wave states: I have to say that I am unable to relate to any of the experiences that you allude to, maybe it's time for the pilots of the 36 nations to pack up their banners and go home - because obviously there isn't a problem, everyone is happy, well-rested and the issue is all in the minds of the under-worked, overpaid pilots that the public perceive.

FOK

PS: Sky Wave, I hope you successfully removed the bullet from your foot?!

[snaproll3480]

Here is another article...

Pilots call for action on fatigue - The National Newspaper (http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091006/NATIONAL/710059812/1010)

[FlyingRabbit]

I find it curious (I was going to say funny, but nothing funny about this subject) that some of you guys blame "Joe Public" for this one as well. Yes, I agree that people will want to get as much as they can for as little as possible. So what? People pay what airlines ask them to. Or not, if they do not have the money. But to compromise safety because "this is what the public wants to pay for" is pathetic.

[silverhawk]

Fatigue is a killer.

As an individual you do NOT recognise until too late.

Regardless of EASA regs, I will call fatigued next time it happens.

Last time, and first, was under CAP471, and I actually had no idea. That's the nature of the beast.

Suspect you are not fit to fly? Don't fly






Tiredness and fatigue are massively different.

[RAT 5]

From UK CAA Gobal Fatal Accident Review a rather damning observatio over 10 years or more
"75% of a/c fatal accidents have had a human causal factor." [list] omission of action/inappropriate action 38% flight handling 29% lack of situational awareness 27% poor professional judgement/airmanship

The same CAA medical department has said that deprived of regular quality sleep a pilot can be worse off than a couple of drinks. The causal factors above will all be effected, markedly, by lack of sharpness and calm relaxed attitude. Yet this same CAA, and others, allows the degredation of FTL's. Getting out of bed at 04.00 5 mornings consecutively and then working 13 hours is not a recipe to reduce the incident/accident rate; including on the roads afterwards. Remember, these statistics are only the fatal crashes. What about the near incidents that never go reported. The list would be longer than Warren Beaty's girl friends.

Do they talk to each other in the various CAA's?

[pontifex]

I am surprised to see that, in this whole thread, there is only one reference to "controlled rest". During my (short) time in the industry after a lifetime in another branch of flying, we frequently and openly used to indulge in intentional, prebreifed and controlled power naps. They were of particular value in the wee small hours returning from somewhere like Rhodes or Cyprus. 20 minutes can set you up wonderfully well with bright, alert consciousness for at least 3 hours with no adverse effect on subsequent sleep. I was, and still am, sold on it. I consider it a great safety tool. And I think it should be discussed far more; not least on this forum.

[RAT 5]

At CPL flying college ikn 1975 a student pilot was engrossed in Transcendental meditation. He tried to explain to the rest of us the merits. It seems at the time the CAA was getting interested in long-haul pilot alertness, or lack of it. Not all carriers had bunks and heavy crew. TM does not send you to sleep, you are still aware of your surrounding etc. but are in a low state of mental activity and the batteries are being charged. They wanted to research its approved use in the flight deck. Thus, they were aware of a problem, or pending one, in 1975. Just think what has happened in the last 34 years and it doesn't give you a heap load of faith.

[Ladusvala]

Pontifex, do you believe that the FTL´s should be based on power napping?

Power napping is only possible on longer sectors and cannot be a universal solution.

What do you passengers think, do you like the thought of sometimes only one pilot awake?
Who knows if he also falls asleep, can the flight attendants check in on the pilots often enough without disturbing the power nap?

Personally I see power napping as an "emergency tool" and I don´t want to base my working day on it.

[pontifex]

Ladusvala. I totally agree with all you say; in no way do I advocate power napping as a tool to extend the FTL day. However, the problem with us pilots is that we are humans (although I know some of us can walk on water!). And, being human, we are imperfect, inconsistent and fallible. And we should be willing to recognise this fact. So, sometimes we will find ourselves desperate to close our eyes on the sort of sector I previously referred to through no fault of our own. How sensible, therefore, to have an approved means to ensure we reach our destination alert and without the hazard of an unavoidable micro-sleep at a critical stage on a difficult approach. Of course the cabin staff are told and required to contact the FD at (shall we say) 5 minute intervals to ensure the FP is awake. Done properly it is quite safe, and certainly safer than the alternative. Balance of disadvantage if you like. I fear it might be unwise to tell the pax about it though.

[BombsGone]

As usual in any fatigue discussion lots of people advocate the "you're the best judge of your fatigue and should not fly when fatigued" line. The first thing you loose when fatigued is the higher level decision making skills. For instance making a reasonable assessment of your own fatigue! In the system I am familiar with there is always an independant check of the fatigue level of the crew with regard to not just the rules but observing them prior to flight.

I have also heard of airlines in Australia that have patterns that cause fatigue such as FlyingOfficerKite describes.

Bombs.

[RAT 5]

The next thing you lose when fatigued for the 3rd event is your job. You will be told you are not suitable for the industry if you can't fit in to FTL's. You've had the pre-flight chance to manage your sleep, and obviously you can't, so goodbye. Such middle aged attitude, but alive and well in non union aviation. (This is not a pro-union campaign; just a fact of life.)

[Marcel_MPH]

Another article on this:

Worldwide-Aviation.net - Naps In The Cockpit: A Brilliant Safety Idea? (http://www.worldwide-aviation.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=158:naps-in-the-cockpit-a-brilliant-safety-idea&catid=36:gen-mil&Itemid=63)

[308GT4]

In our modern world and way of thinking, NOTHING is more important to people and especially companies, than MONEY.Money takes priority over all other factors, and yes, that does include human lives. But, and here's the secret: we deny this utterly and at all times!Companies will make sure that any and all threats to their money are enhanced by whatever means. So you get them hiring the services of other bodies to do anything to make more money, or to prevent the loss of money by it being spent on wastefull ideas.(safety and maintenance)We ourselves are an example of the worship of money above all else. We will knife fellow pilots right between the shoulder blades to just be one-up on them, financially speaking.The companies will go out of their way to get a reflection of "flight time and duty" that suites them. They are able to spend much larger sums of money on research by companies that are willing to portray the reasearch in the companies best light and favour. Just look at all the "Enviromental impact research" done by companies who will then destroy the enviroment where they are working to get their maximum money. The enviroment does not count for anything with the bean-counters, only the money.And, this is what we choose too. Money above all else. I so often wonder, when we now have this money, (more than your neighbour), what exactly do we do with it? Spend it? On what or whom? Hoard it? For retirement when we are old?? Security?Mainly, to be one-up on our neighbours. The ego thing.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

A good interesting topic being discussed here.

Were do I start?

I don't know if I am alone in feeling this but over the past 4 months or so I have being having heavy 'Withdrawal' symptons with this Flying game & PPrune.

As much so, Alot of the time after making some 900 + posts on PPrune I honestly don't get any 'Buzz' anymore about posting on here.

This is a good knowledgeable site, But simply the same conversations 3 x over about usually the same subject and the same people.

Some posters just seem to post 'Anything' however trivial it seems to be.
And it always seems to be the same 'Hardcore' of members talking.

With some members 'Barely' hitting 100 posts in 10 years.

That's entirely their choice and I am not citing offence.

We all known or (Should) that this Airline/Airport business is no way near what it was (Even 5 years ago)

The changes are just about happening daily in alot of companies etc.

We also know that the pure 'Enjoyment and buzz' of flying and wearing a proud uniform + loyalty has all gone now.

Airlines are just simply 'Financial Institutions' in disguise, And some companies appear, Talk & behave like banks.

Lets be right, After flying into Palma more X than eating a hot meal it just feels 'Boring' to put it simply.

I know it is just a job, But NO it shouldn't be JUST a job it should be an Enjoyable job after all the years of funding training etc.

I am a firm believer in 'Enjoyment' and I don't usually undertake something that doesn't appeal to me or gives me any kind of a 'Buzz'

But I feel the World issues and the current financial 'Mess' which I would say was created by 'Wall St' in the first place coupled with Airlines and Airports running their companies like financial institutions rather than before when they smelt & felt like Airlines & Airports.

Look at MAN Airport, You would think it was the Trafford Centre now with a shop or a sales stand and adverts everywhere.

Don't see many 'Pleasant' pictures in the terminals of families getting onto Aircraft and enjoying themselves at the same time, Instead it is just sales sales sales and more car hire signs than ever!

Aside from all this all the Aircraft now seem to look the same and many sound the same are either A320's or 737's with the good old firm 757 still popular, A good 25 years ago you could go to the Airports and still see 1-11's, Dc9's, Tristars, DC10's, Viscounts, Concorde etc.

Now it is just boring from many Aircraft enthusiasts point of view?

In time we may just see as little as 2 types of machine - A320 & A330?

I would be very surprised if Boeing started producing in large no's again.

The Dreamliner seems to be delay after delay.

And sadly maybe 5 or so Airlines still afloat?

The staff who are currently flying will not be replaced in great numbers when they retire, And sadly would be pilots saving their money and working in Tesco's!

lets be honest and say that all that may be left is just 'Very' large supermarkets with city centres dissapearing fast.

We never hear any of these famous entrepreauneurs talking about the Airline Industry, Even Sir Richard branson seems to have gone quiet over the past x amount of years.

We need 5 Sir Richard's to keep this industry alive, Not just Virgin & Ryanair, Ryanair who I think seem to think that they have already made enough money, But want to make even more money.

How much money is enough?

Once a company has made millions after millions I can't see it enjoyable anymore, The most obvious time would be when you make the 1st million, After that then it is just printing money.

I am more motivated when I have less money than when I have more, The more you earn the more you spend.

I would think the Bcal, Britannia, Dan Air, Early Monarch days were more enjoyable to many compared with today.

There's still enough Airtravellers but the quantity is now not the quality it was.

The 'Excitement & Buzz' has all but gone i'm afraid to say.

Has the 'Fire' finally gone out?

[XX621]

ByAlphaIndia: I can't help but fear you have made a number of valid observations.

Hopefully, others will disagree....

[PT6Driver]

Mr Angry
The Easa rules came into effect in 2008 but the caa in the uk have negotiated an opt out because our rule (cap 371) is far superior to the EU legislation (subpart Q). That is why we in the uk all still operate the we have always done with no change.
This will all come to an end in 2012 because EASA will become the legal authority over FTL (and other areas) and will not allow any opt outs - all countries companies etc will have to obay the new law.

So we have to act to get this changed before then because you cannot change after the event.
In an ideal world cap 371 would replace subpart Q but that is unlikly. We must try to get Subpqrt Q amended based on sientific research.

Can anyone give me a link to the offending document ?