Shanwick ATC 'down'

[G-CPTN]

Beeb reporting that all trans-Atlantic flights have been grounded (!) because of failures of ATC at Shannon . . .

[dany4kin]

It's Shanwick.

System down.

No anticipated improvement until late afternoon.

[G-CPTN]

BBC NEWS | UK | UK transatlantic flights grounded (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8288313.stm)

[TUPilot]

BBC sound optimistic. Right now we are looking at delays of at least six hours, possibly up to 12. Last message suggested ATC would not be back to normal until 1500Z.

[6000PIC]

For all the redundancy to aircraft engines and systems insisted upon by the authorities these days , I am puzzled by the lack thereof by such a critical element in the international air traffic infrastructure. Are we getting what " we" pay for ? Was this a " hardware " or a " liveware " problem ? Who is to blame ? This should be treated as critically as would any major air disaster as the consequences of a deterioration of safety , ( other than grounding all air traffic ...$$$ ) has repercussions the world over.

[Killigrew]

Well, we've filed right over the top of oceanic. Ok, any extra 25 mins flying time, but no delay....
Filing over Matik then straight over Iceland.
Good luck !

[manges_frites]

BBC keeps implying it's only UK departures. Typical attention to detail from them.

[dany4kin]

Situation improving slowly.

15 movements accepted per hour now.

[Guava Tree]

Thanks for the info.
Some of us might be wondering what is the normal number of movements per hour on a Saturday morning.

[dany4kin]

Several flights are re-routing to avoid the airspace too, either going North via Iceland or South via the Azores.

[HeathrowAirport]

Everything is fixed now. The computer had gone zero rated which meant it could not process any routings and everything had to be done manually.

It was 16 movements only, now 25, systems are stable and back to normal within the hour.

[Charley B]

Not many delayed from LGW at all -Delta and Air Transaat have just departed and BA to Barbados taxying now--so hopefully situation is improving well!!

[Killigrew]

This really wasn't the big deal that it was made out to be !
Airspaces close every day and we get round them...literally !

[raffele]

The BBC really need to change their headline and opening paragraph - given that nowhere in their article does anyone from BAA, NATS or BA say that their flights are grounded, and the only mention of problems is some minor delays... But then as we all know, they're not that brilliant at reporting aviation-related news

[looneykeycode]

Whilst the technology exists to fit a/c with GPS tracking systems for over the ocean monitoring, the costs of a fit to each a/c is significant. For operators with large fleets we are talking hundreds of millions of pounds. There is no real payback to operators for installing this equipment especially on aging airframes. So its actually an economic argumnet not a technological argument. Here in NATS it would be great if we could decommission long range radar and use processed GPS systems to indiate the a/c position. It would be more accurate and we could get rid of the limitations of the radar systems and the anomalies that come with it such as ghosting of tracks and duplicate SSR codes.

Unfortunately the airlines have to pay at this is the wrong financial climate

[ETOPS]

For operators with large fleets we are talking hundreds of millions of pounds.

All our T7's are fitted with CPDLC datalink and all our 744's are now ADS-B out equipped. All new longhaul aircraft on order will be equipped from new.

Just need evryone else to catch up and align the ARINC standards and we might be able to mitigate this sort of situation in future.

[FullWings]

I find it interesting that the flow rate can drop to as little as 15/hr over the whole OTS. 6 tracks with 9 levels each is a lot of sky, that's one aircraft every four hours for each "tunnel": long gone into someone else's airspace. :confused:

I'd have thought you could run it quite safely by making sure that there was at least 10mins between aircraft estimates for the boundary and the speed for the crossing was the same for everyone on that track & level. Now we've all got GPS/IRS, RVSM-capable TCAS equipped aircraft (with offset), it shouldn't be too much of a safety issue? After all, the situation described above is a good day over Africa and we still fly there...

What happened to the blokes arriving for a crossing from the rest of Europe and Asia?

[10W]

Some folks on here are as informed as the BBC :)

[Del Prado]

I find it interesting that the flow rate can drop to as little as 15/hr over the whole OTS. 6 tracks with 9 levels each is a lot of sky, that's one aircraft every four hours for each "tunnel": long gone into someone else's airspace.



What happened to the blokes arriving for a crossing from the rest of Europe and Asia?


:ugh::ugh::ugh:


You're not Paul Barron are you?:suspect:

[ATC Watcher]

I'd have thought you could run it quite safely by making sure that there was at least 10mins between aircraft estimates for the boundary and the speed for the crossing was the same for everyone on that track & level. Now we've all got GPS/IRS, RVSM-capable TCAS equipped aircraft (with offset), it shouldn't be too much of a safety issue?


Is this humor or are you serious?

If you are serious , you need to read some documents again , you have a lot to learn about safety management .

[divingduck]

Some reasonable questions being asked by the pilot brethren...

If you are serious , you need to read some documents again , you have a lot to learn about safety management

Lets give it a name shall we? And call it procedural control?

[5milesbaby]

Lets give it a name shall we? And call it procedural control?
Of which you need to hold a valid license for. The oceanic controllers work with the system that gives them their rating. Take that system away, then no rating.

[ATC Watcher]

Some reasonable questions being asked by the pilot brethren..

It is the " safety " aspect of his statement that I questionned. His last remark.
it shouldn't be too much of a safety issue?

It gave me the impression that he proposed that keeping a/c appart without surveillance over the North Atlantic is a simple as giving 10min appart estimates at the same level, and 3 hours later you expect to still have 10 min sep and if it does not work you have TCAS to avoid each other .

It is a nice concept. It was called " big blue sky" in the US if my memory serves me well.

[divingduck]

Well consider my gast flabbered!
I had no idea that you guys didn't have a procedural rating!
Seriously, I am not taking the Michael, I took it for granted that the Shanwick Oceanic guys/gals did indeed have the dreaded procedural ratings on their licences, as that is what I had in all the spots prior to the current one.

That is one of the more disturbing things I have learned this transfer...

[None]

Hmmmm.

Killigrew wrote:
This really wasn't the big deal that it was made out to be !
Airspaces close every day and we get round them...literally !

Perhaps that statement is meant for ATC and pilots. May I assume it is not meant for passengers?

I found out about the closing 10 minutes before pushback. By the time we received and loaded a new routing (through Santa Maria) in the FMS, and added fuel, we missed our slot. We waited an additional one hour for the new slot, and this delay plus the longer flight time caused a late arrival in the States.

I would be interested in how you would explain to all the passengers who missed their connection how "this really wasn't the big deal that it was made out to be."

[5milesbaby]

divingduck, I'm sure the guys and gals of Oceanic Control do have a procedural rating, however their job is done using a computer system to determine if aircraft remain separated all the way across the Atlantic so their rating will incorporate that system. I imagine there is another system for when the computer fails, but if its anything like Swanwick, you stop EVERYTHING first then start to implement the contingency plan. It just makes sure that everyone is playing off the same sheet.

[tarnish26]

When will Shanwick move into the 21st century??? I mean this day and age still talking on HF radio ( if your lucky )...I can phone any where in the world from my office at 41000ft but often struggle to hear Paddy at Shannon on his wee wireless set!!!:(

[green granite]

The company (Software Sciences) I worked for in the 1970s won (Or it might have been tendering for) the contract for supplying Shanwick's first computerized system, It was IIRC based around the PDP 11 or the VAC and the spec called for a maximum down time of no more than 5mins per year. Do I take it that the modern system specs have been relaxed, or did the contractor screw up and the system couldn't meet them when the chips were down?

[DCS99]

So, what was the problem and how long was the system down or not fully functional?

Software Upgrade?
Hardware Failure?
Comms Failure?

And now I declare a personal interest - my colleague was en-route with Delta from ZRH to PHX via ATL.

It took him 24 hours to get to Phoenix!
Missed connection in Atlanta due to an initial >1.5 hour hold on the ground in ZRH due to this problem

[anotherthing]

...the spec called for a maximum down time of no more than 5mins per year. Do I take it that the modern system specs have been relaxed...

No, you merely take it too simplistically.

Having something 'on spec' to have maximum of 5 (or whatever figure)minutes down time per year is a figure that asks for a degree of reliability over its lifetime.

It does not mean that if and when the system fails it will only be for 5 minutes.

Furthermore, when an ATC system crashes the immediate response is to reduce or halt traffic flow.

This is for safety.

Then back-up or manual systems are instigated and the flow rate is slowly increased. If the main 'computer' system is still U/S, then the flow rate achieved will be much reduced from normal operations.

If the 'computer' system is fixed within 5 minutes (or whatever time frame), it still takes a finite amount of time for the flow rates to catch up.

Therefore even a 5 minute hitch in the system will usually cause an initial greater amount of time delay.

Considering the amount of processing that goes on 24hrs a day, 365 days a year, the number of hitches in the ATC system are remarkably low.

When they do happen, the engineers are usually very good at fixing it quickly.

NATS are currently looking into what went wrong, but the response from the support staff was extremely swift, although obviously for those affected, it might not have seemed so.

[divingduck]

Sorry I didn't reply to your missive earlier.
It gave me the impression that he proposed that keeping a/c appart without surveillance over the North Atlantic is a simple as giving 10min appart estimates at the same level, and 3 hours later you expect to still have 10 min sep and if it does not work you have TCAS to avoid each other .

ummm, I thought that is exactly what Mach Number Technique was supposed to achieve? With both a/c in the same air mass, given their time restrictions, and mached accordingly, they should indeed appear on radar at the other end 10 minutes apart. TCAS will never have to be involved unless one stops and does a spin or two.
Perhaps the North Atlantic is different from every other Oceanic airspace in the world where it seems to work just as it says on the box.
Regarding your "surveillance" statement, how exactly do you "surveill" A/c off radar...oh that would be via data link, or HF radio giving position reports wouldn't it?

[10W]

When will Shanwick move into the 21st century??? I mean this day and age still talking on HF radio ( if your lucky )...I can phone any where in the world from my office at 41000ft but often struggle to hear Paddy at Shannon on his wee wireless set!!!

Turn it on its head Tarnish. When will YOUR company come in to the 21st Century and equip with the kit which today allows a large proportion of Oceanic traffic to transit Shanwick without ever needing to use their HF radio ? They get their clearances through CPDLC and then make automatic position reports without the need for the crew to talk physically to anyone.

I am sure someone has the stats but I think about 70% of users do it this way. Time for your lot to catch up with civilisation maybe ? ;)

[sleeper]

Even with cpdlc you still have to call them once entering oceanic for a sellcallcheck.

[tarnish26]

10W.....Hmmmmmm...When will YOUR company come in to the 21st Century and equip with the kit which today allows a large proportion of Oceanic traffic to transit Shanwick without ever needing to use their HF radio ?

I wish....would be nice to have the kit in my little Gulfsream but with an ident like "10W" I thought you must realise how crap at times the CPDLC is........quite often on 127.65 awaiting my clearance to hear the big boys coming on asking why their data link clearance has not been delivered!!...yea sounds great so maybe we will stay in the 20th century for a little while yet?? :O