Black Hawk Down

[Talking Radalt]

It's out at last, the movie of the book of the cock up. Not seen it yet but what I've just seen on BBC2 is some tree hugging left wing lesbian slagging it off saying:

"The only people it will interest are those who like big boys' toys, and crashing about in snazzy helicopters"

........Yup! :)

[High Volt]

You've got to hand it to them. Only the yanks could make such a movie out of a total F*** Up. Their psyche is worrying; bags of effort nil progress but who cares so long as ass is being kicked (Vietnam, Iran (more downed helos - all their own work), Black Hawk Down etc etc etc)

[ORAC]

I am going to go see it on Sunday. I'll let you know.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

It's a shame that the tree hugging lesbian said "The only people it will interest are those who like big boys' toys, and crashing about in snazzy helicopters".

I'm sure those who were actually there and saw their comrades die would have a different view.

It may have been a cock up, but show me an operation that hasn't.

[helmet fire]

I agree Scarlet, to the people in the situation, ON BOTH SIDES, watching such carnage and watching your buddies get killed, it will be a painful reminder if the film is anything as realistic as the book.

But for those that created the situation - enjoy the replay of a total shambles. The book is a must read on blunders and how not to do it next time. I doubt the film will explore too many of those though. But at least it will be worth watching simply for the big boys toys and snazzy helicopters (does it get any better than that?)

Does the Lezzo want a date to see it with me?
:)

[ORAC]

Well USA Today liked it.

<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020118/3785293s.htm</a>

'Black Hawk' is a brutal flight Entertainment War lessons for actors playing the soldiers, cover story, 10D * * * * review, 13D
By Scott Bowles
USA TODAY


NEW YORK -- Like the soldiers in Black Hawk Down, audiences will find themselves under siege the moment the mission begins.

The Ridley Scott-Jerry Bruckheimer film, which opens today nationwide after opening Dec. 28 in New York and L.A., compresses the 16-hour Somali firefight into an unrelenting 2-hour battle scene. Scott substitutes detonations for dialogue, explosions for exposition, to tell the story of the worst American combat casualties since Vietnam.

But with the perils facing U.S. troops overseas after Sept. 11, are audiences ready for the bloody re-enactment of the battle that claimed 18 Americans in 1993? The film never flinches from the fates of soldiers, some of whom are beaten, shot and literally torn apart.

''It's not an easy film to watch,'' says film critic/historian Leonard Maltin. ''It will be interesting to see if people can look past the brutality and see the heroes being portrayed.''

Scott believes they can. ''People want to know what soldiers are facing'' in Afghanistan, he says. ''They're drawn to the truth, even if it's hard to watch.''

Hawk takes the frenetic opening of the D-Day invasion in Saving Private Ryan and maintains that pace throughout the film. Yet it does so with only one computer-generated effect, of a spiraling helicopter hit by a grenade. The rest of the movie, shot in Morocco, uses the real machinery, much like the groundbreaking war film Apocalypse Now.

''I didn't want something that looked artificial,'' Scott says. ''This was a real event that seemed to be in the news for only a few days. If we were taking the chance to tell the true story of what combat is like, we had to be as right as possible.''

If truth really is the first casualty of war, then it escapes with only superficial wounds in the film, says Sgt. Matt Eversmann, one of the men who survived the firefight. ''They got the most important part right,'' says Eversmann, played in the film by Josh Hartnett. ''The men who fought did what they set out to do and did it bravely.''

Despite rave reviews, the film received no Golden Globe nominations, a snub that rankles Hartnett. ''I don't see how a movie so realistic about an important world event didn't get nominated for anything.''

Scott sent actors through military training at Fort Benning (Ga.), Fort Campbell (Ky.) and Fort Bragg (N.C.). The Army provided four Black Hawk helicopters and 140 personnel to add authenticity.

Tom Sizemore added his own by getting to know his real-life counterpart, Lt. Col. Danny McKnight. ''He didn't run or duck for cover (during the raid) because he didn't want to show the men under him that he was afraid,'' Sizemore says. ''So my character doesn't, either.''

Hawk isn't completely faithful to Mark Bowden's best-selling book. It pays little attention to the thousands of Somalis who were killed, blends some characters and fudges a few facts. Soldiers go without goggles and wear their names on their helmets so moviegoers can keep track of the stars in the chaos. At the request of the Pentagon, one real-life soldier's name, John Stebbins, was changed because he is serving 30 years in a military prison for raping his daughter.

The infamous images of soldiers' bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu also were omitted, Scott says, because that happened the day after the firefight. He wanted to keep the battle as close to real time as possible.

''I just wanted to show a glimpse of how soldiers put their lives on the line for us every day,'' he says. ''Because we often don't seem to notice.''

Eversmann did. In one scene, a soldier picks up the severed hand of a comrade and puts it in his jacket. ''That happened,'' Eversmann recalls. ''We didn't want to leave anyone behind, even something like that.''

The scene, he says, ''told me they got the message right. You could never really capture what happened in Somalia. Even I can't remember it all.

''But we never gave up on that mission, and that's what comes through in the movie.''

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: ORAC ]</p>

[MrBernoulli]

I read the book some years back and, yes, it catalogues the cock-ups but it is also the story of the soldiers on the ground. Given their orders, off they go and you read about the dilemmmas and problems they face. I am looking forward to seeing the movie from that point of view. Sure, the USA did not come out of this one covered in glory but it did involve servicemen with their own stories to tell.

There is one part of the book that deals with trying to save a dying soldier. The description should be read by all who feel that first aid training is a waste of time - you will weep.

[solotk]

If you want to weep, cheer, or just think.."There but for the grace of God".....

<a href="http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp" target="_blank">http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp</a>

The people involved tell their own stories there.

Tony

[Cesspit 152]

Of course USA today liked it -Product placement- there's a shot of their paper in the film (the guy who gets lifted near the start was reading it before his convoy sets off).
Ace film, read the book a while back & know a pilot who was in theatre at the time, although not involved in the cockup, flying MH-53's for the USAF, but from what he knows of it he thought it was a fairly accurate account of what happened.
Def. one of my favourite films, must be said.

[ORAC]

Well, just seen it. Excellent film. Shows it all, warts and all. No glory, no excuses, no happy movie ending.

10 out of 10.

(Strange bloke beside me had brought his 2 daughters who looked about 8 and 9 - who definitely did not enjoy it!!.Takes all sorts).

ps. No clapping, cheering etc from the audience, who all left a bit somber. Can understand why Hollywood lovies have'nt nominated it for anything. Not their jingoistic sort of movie at all.

[MG]

Definitely looking forward to seeing it. Don't think its the Americans who have the monopoly on filming their disasters; look at 'Dunkirk', A Bridge too Far', 'Zulu Dawn' etc. In fact almost the entire British film industry was kept going in the 50s making war films of all descriptions.

[MightyGem]

Saw it last night. 10 out of 10. Go and see it not as a cock up (how many plans survive the first shot?), but as the story of a group of soldiers fighting against overwhelming odds.

Incidently, the mission, to capture to of Mohammed Farah Aidid's lieutenants, succeeded, although at a higher price than anyone had probably allowed for.

[Bright-Ling]

Apart from the obvious cock up side of things it wasn't bad!!!

Probably about 1hr+ of continous flying/fighting/bullet dodging and good angled rpg-ing!

Don't froget - it is only BASED on the facts from the novel......so a little distortion Hollywood style is inevitable!!

On an intersting note, they are told before they go in that they can't have the AC-130 as top cover. How much would that have helped a guerilla warfare-in-the-streets scenario?!!

Will now apply to be exempt from CCS after watching this!!!!

-------------------------------------------

B-L

[Emerson Cahooners]

Saw it on Friday night, 11 out of 10. Amazed that the yank director made it completely un gung-ho. Fairly shocking in parts, you never know Joe public might actually get a rough idea about the realities of warfare and our work from this.. .Loads of people left the cinema (East London) in tears, unfortunately spoiled by some of our overseas brethren who seemed to find the idea of Americans dying very funny, don't think I need to say any more.. .Go and see it.

[Crowe]

Emerson - might come as a bit of a shock to Ridley Scott that he's a "Yank director".

another Brit made good in LA, if I'm not mistaken...

[Bervie]

Saw it on friday - great "boys toys action film".

Glad I didnt join the infantry!

I personally like the way the rescue convoy left the blokes at the end to run out after the armoured vehicles - cheers for the rescue!

[Emerson Cahooners]

Fair point Crowe, got a little carried away in the emotion of it all, meant American written, funded, acted, edited...etc but not directed (I think J Bruckheimer is spam though.)

Stand corrected, soz Ridley.

[Dukeyboy]

Read the book recently and saw the film. Surprisingly little 'Hollywood-isation' for a major blockbuster but one scene they missed out, that of a cow carrying militiamen being rinced by a minigun, was sadly missed! Also, I think the film failed to point out the concious decision made by the Rangers to begin firing into the crowds of somali, some women and children, to remove the gunmen among them. Gripping stuff nevertheless.

I wouldn't reccomend that Puma pilot with a possible posting coming up see it!

[Cyclic Hotline]

Thought it was a well made film, which as others commented, stayed pretty close to the version in the book and the actual events. I noticed the same effect with people leaving at the end, makes them think about the individuals who put their lives on the line in order to maintain some semblance of society and freedom when anarchy reigns.

Of course the ultimate reaction by the Clinton administration, may well have played a signficant part of the events of today!

Well apart from Ridley Scott directing it, what did the Brits ever do in the movie business?

Errrr, how about Ewan McGregor playing one of the starring roles. And what about that Simon West (Executive Producer), all the way from Letchworth!

No wonder the British movie industry is in such poor shape - the can't get no respect! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[kabz]

10/10

Saw it on Sunday night. Packed movie theater, audience very quiet, and very sombre on way out.

It was a hard film. Just relentless action and it conveyed a lot of the horror, and being scared, and the agony of the pretty much everyone involved.

Might not do much for relations with the Somalis.

[WhichWay?]

Have just seen the film this afternoon. Even though I read the book last summer I was still dumbstruck and awed at these brave people being stuck in such a position with nowhere to turn to other than fight their way out.

See it!

I think that there was some artistic licencing going on with regards to some of the scenes where the Rangers/Delta are surrounded in a square with the 'skinnies' on the roof tops firing, but it is amazing that only 19 Americans died.

I hope that this makes people realize that war is not all glory and there are people who will get killed defending their beliefs and truths. Equally as important there are those who will go out and fight when all odds are against them knowing that they probably will not survive (Shughart and Gordon who were both killed knew the odds but wanted to try and save '64s crew).

Although it could be seen as a failure because so many Americans died in such a short space of time, I think the greatest failure is from the politicians who think that just by sending in a force to try and change a government/head of state they will solve a countries problems. Lets hope things stabilise and remain stabilised in the last 2 governmental involvements of Afghanistan and Seirra Leone respectively.

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: WhichWay? ]</p>

[Agaricus bisporus]

Interesting topic, tho I've not seen the film.

Clearly huge inflation in figures here though, mentions of 1000 or more Somali dead are, I believe simply nonsense. Scott Peterson in his book "Me Against My Brother" quotes 312 dead and 800 injured, a far cry fron the 80 -200 estimeate I heard whilst I was there at that time, in theatre.

The AC 130s were there at the time too, patrolling regularly in daytime, it would indeed be surprising if they were not available for support.

Having said that I was always astonished at the cavalier way the Blackhawks and Hueys dragged themselves over the city at 100 feet and sixty knots in endless day and night patrols, sitting targets if ever there was one. I am certain they did this deliberately to set themselves up as targets, there was always a Cobra hanging out opportunistically behind them at a much more workmanlike level. The phrase "asking for it" springs to mind.

There were times when I could have hit a UH1 or Blackhawk with a catapult from my bed on a roof near the "Arch de Triomphe" as seen in the movie's advertising which is actually at the opposite end of the city to where the incident took place, but then there were no OH58s in theatre either. . .Oh hell, who needs accuracy!

Still, best to remember that Uncle Sam did not go barging in there solo or uninvited, but at the behest of the UN and as part of a much larger multinational force intended not for the "overthrow of a government" - JOKE!!! - Somalia had had no "government in years, but to disarm a murderous bunch of armed thugs who were intent on destroying their nation and all it's non-combatant population - by which I mean only those aged 8 or less or geriatric.

The French and Nigerians killed a whole bunch of people very soon after arrival and never had problems after that, they had the populations respect. The Yanks? they pussied and flufffed and faddled and postured and posed and lost the chance to oversee the disarmament that most Somalis wanted, and which could proably have been imposed fairly easily had they acted firmly and decisively from the start. Sadly they blew it and earned the undying contempt of the warrior Somali - for being "soft like girls" as one Somali frend told me. 8 yr old kids were snatching the Ray-Bans (worth 3 weeks of a man's wages) off GI's faces as they patrolled in Humvees secure in the knowledge that the GIs would not shoot. The Somali onlookers loved it because of the GI's humiliation by children and they knew they could equally well drop grenades into the vehicles if they wished, and the GIs simply sat there and shat themselves. It was pathetic to watch. No way did the Somalis try that with the French, Nigerians or even the Pakistanis. That contempt for unmilitary wetness is a legacy that Uncle Sam will take decades to lose, if ever, and will make any political initiatives into the area devoid of credibility.

Lesson? Don't expect respect from warroirs if you behave like politically correct pussies.

As an insight into the mind of the foe of those poor unsupported GIs here is a traditional Somali proverb, and a quote;

"But of all the races of Africa there cannot be one. .better to live amongst than the most difficult,. .the proudest,the bravest, the vainest,the. .most merciless, the friendliest; the Somali".

---Gerald Hanley, Warriors.

. ."Me and my clan against the world;. .Me and my family against my clan;. .Me and my brother against my family;. .Me against my brother".

---The hierarchy of priorities,. .as ordered by a Somali proverb.

. .Beware all who would meddle here...

[KD]

Good Post Ag Bi

Confess to not knowing an awful lot about the background to the Somali sit . Saw the film last last and thought it was excellent. Like most war films I`ve seen ( Saving Private Ryan etc ) I cannot begin to imagine the feeling of being in that situation . A new found respect for infantry and chopper pilots (though the whirlybird drivers went up in my opinion after time to reflect in the drink off Anglesey waiting to be picked up after dinghy drills. Never been so glad to see a helicopter ) I digress . . .. . .

Awesome film . See it . Thought provoking stuff for anyone who may find themselves in similar positions in the future

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: KD ]</p>

[MightyGem]

Ag Bis, in the book Mark Bowden writes of P3 Orions doing the high level obs over the city and also of OH58D Warriors as well.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Mighty Gem, I am certain there were no OH 58s (I've got the designator right, haven't I? I'm talking about military Hughes 500s)in Mog during 93 unless they were hidden in a hangar when no other helos were, or else shipborne, which is a pretty strange place to put such an unsuitable machine. US land based helos were Blackhawks, Cobras and mybe a few Hueys.

I never saw an Orion on the ground or in the air but that does not mean they never visited, but I'd say with certainty they never did so regularly or frequently. I'd heve noticed them on patrol unless very high indeed - you don't sleep on a roof and not take notice of the airborne activity, particularly if it is liable to start spewing fire, noise and fury in vast deafening and dazzling sheets - Puff would have been very very proud of his offspring. He sure impressed the hell out of me!

It is because I was so aware of the Spectres that I doubt I would have missed Orions if they had regular attenders.

Still, I could be wrong.

I'm also pretty sure that the reaction to the loss of the Blackhawks specifically did not involve the use of further helos, ground partols were sent in instead.

But then I guess no one said the movie was accurate did they, what movie ever is?

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Agaricus bisporus ]</p>

[Jackonicko]

AB: The mil version of the Hughes 500 is the H-6 or 'Loach'. Which was in Somalia in force with the 160th SOAR in MH-6 (Special Forces insertion and sniper platform) and AH-6 (gunship) forms. These 'Little Birds' played a vital role in the operation portrayed in the movie, including providing fire support after the H-60 was downed. The H-58 is of course the military version of the Jet Ranger (Bell 206), and was also deployed.

P-3s were operating over Somalia (perhaps/probably from elsewhere) in numbers, including VPU-1/2s Reef Point/Storm Jib LOROP platforms, VQ-1/2's EP-3E Aries Elint platforms and standard P-3s.

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]</p>

[MightyGem]

Ag Bis, you say that you haven't seen the film, yet you comment that it is inaccurate. Compared to what? The book, or your eyewitness account? Have you read the book?. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Agaricus bisporus]

Just going by the posters for the movie which depict swat teams hanging off the helos in question and flying over the arch de triomphe.

I am intrigued by Jackonickos post - I never saw anything resembling a Jet Ranger or a H5oo in my year there and as I said above I'd be very very surprised if they were present. It's hard to operate from an airfield for so long and not know what's on it. Jacko, perhaps you have more info - where were they based? Not Mogadishu airport, I'll bet. Baledogle perhaps? They must have been very rare visitors to Mog indeed. Certainly none of the accounts I have read about the incident refers to either type.

Orions, well they are obviously much more covert than I had imagined - high level evidently, but why not base them locally if they are needed like everything else?

[MightyGem]

Ag Bis, I think I have the answer. It’s all part of the Star Wars/Trek spin off. Remember how we marvelled back in the 70s when Capt James T spoke on his communicator the size of cigarette packet? Compare that to our latest mobile ‘phones.

Anyway, I managed to hack into a couple of DoD computers over the weekend and found out that the 160 SOAR have been using an experimental electro magnetic generator that works on a process similar to a Romulan Warbird cloaking device.. .However, the diameter of the field produced is only just big enough to hide an aircraft the size of an OH/AH6 or OH58D. With a Blackhawk the nose and tail rotor can still be seen. This could explain why only Blackhawks were shot down and not the smaller types. This also explains why you never saw them when you were out there. Obviously the film company didn’t have access to this technology when making the movie.

With regards to the Orions, if you look at an aircraft in the middle distance it generally appears black against the background of sky. I remember reading some years ago of a theory that if you mounted a number of lights on an aircraft with a wavelength equal to that of the background, this would effectively render the aircraft invisible, or at least very hard to see. I suspect this may have been developed into a usable device.

Anyway I must go, it sounds like someone’s trying to break down my front door...............

:) :)

[ashwelljames]

seen the book, read the film, much like sqn life without the crap.

[Low and Slow]

Agaricus Bisporus:

AH-6 and MH-6 were in Mog. Anyone who doubts it, go talk to the 160th SOAR aircrew and READ BLACKHAWK DOWN. BBC even interviewed an MH-6 pilot when they did a peice on the original incident.

EP-3 definatley. Not sure about the OH-58 types. I agree these are odds

Are you alleging that AC-130 were operational in theatre at the time of the incident?

How do you know you weren't looking at C-130's or EC-130's. As the AC operate at about 5,000ft I doubt you could see the weapons. Genuine mistake and easy to make.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Er, low & slow, perhaps you'd better re read my posts. Nothing to do with 5000', even I can tell the diference between a regular herc and one with sodding great guns sticking out of it when I taxy past it.

Likewise I can not work out of an airfield for so many months and never see anything resembling a B206 or a H500 and be expected to easliy accept they were there and being used.

Orions, OK, maybe they were so high that they were not noticeable - and that's awful high, but those gunships droning around in circles all day and night at FL120 - well, -thats the level no one else was allowed to operate at- were always apparent, and at night positively obtrusive.

If these light helos are really claimed to have been present can someone please tell me where they were based, cos on an airfield with no cover like Mog they must have had one of those star trek force shields to hide them.

[StbdD]

Agaricus bisporus,

Your mouth far outreachs your arse. I shall take but one obvious example: You claim (by supposed direct observation) that a certain helicopter type wasn't involved in MOG... you then retract that claim and admit you don't know one helo type from another. This rather negates the other claims you made based on your expertise.

Lamentably, that expertise doesn't exist and the Internet provides an outlet for ignorance.

Let me help out... I DID fly helos there (MOG) for over 13 months in units which DID contain the types you claimed weren't there.

As to your estimate of "Huge Inflation" of casualty figures..... how the hell do you know? I assure you that no NGO's (Red Cross Etc.) were allowed by the Somalies into that area to make a count and the Somalies damn certainly didn't bother to count. I know, I watched for a week as they pulled the bodies out and dumped them. So on what basis do you challenge anyones figures and make accusations of inflation?

While I note your backpedalling in subsequent posts your original one was a classic. You haven't seen the movie, haven't read the book but feel qualified to comment adversely and sling accusations on something you admit you know little about. Amazing

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: StbdD ]</p>

[Orionguy]

Right Delta;

You are correct about the helicopters, although I don't necessarily suspect hostile intent on the part of AgBi- his observations are based on an experience that was probably modified by perimeter security. He says he was there, but "there" may be relative...

As for the optics, there were P-3's in Somalia; straight-up P-3C's from, at different times, at least three different VP's, plus some of the niftier variants from other sources. The fact that they went unseen speaks to both the plan and their capabilities.

As for BHD, I think the film maker's honest adherence to the book & the story are truly remarkable. IMHO, this is one of the best "war movies" ever- better, because these events actually occurred, and more gripping because they "really left the bark on it". One sees Pearl Harbor veterans shake their heads when queried on the veracity "Pearl Harbor", while one sees the Ranger veterans of this episode weep when asked about "Black Hawk Down".

Finally, anybody slagging the US military for the tragic outcome of this operation is most certainly French - no citizen of the nation that celebrates the great victory at Dunkirk could possibly have the temerity to level a charge of incompetence here, could he <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?!

[offshoreigor]

Bright-Ling

Having been in Mogadishu for UNOSOM II and having seen the results of several "Puff the Magic Dragon" (AC130) missions, I would say that it would have made a very big difference!

Something very eerie about hearing that rumbling whine from the sky at night, followed by a very accurate and concentrated explosion on the ground with very little collateral damage!

Cheers <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OffshoreIgor <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

PS.

There are only three types of people in the world:

1. Those who make things happen;

2. Those who watch things happen; and

3. Those who wonder what the F@CK happened!