The End is Near ...

[Squawk7777]

If this happens, then it'll be the end for most US mainline national flying.

news (http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUST30518320091002)

Where's a good union when you need one?

[PENKO]

Let me see, Mitsubishi receives and order for aircraft from a U.S. company.
What's the problem? Many many Boeings flying around in Japan..

edit: I now see you are talking about regionals taking over from mainline. Oh well. Is that anything new?

[Huck]

Good God, we'll have narrowbody pilots making 70k with no pensions, flying crap schedules and reduced-rest overnights.

Oh wait, we've got that now.....

[Squawk7777]

Oh wait, we've got that now.....

but it keeps spreading with no end in sight! Uncle Hul@s will dominate the aviation world one day! :eek: :yuk:

Mitsubishi receives and order for aircraft from a U.S. company.

It's not just "a U.S. company". [Management =] The root of all evil I'd say; still saluting my former colleagues who are putting up with the daily abuse. There is life after Trans States!

[leewan]

If this happens, then it'll be the end for most US mainline national flying.

Are you lamenting because Boeing has lost a potential order or the fact that a Japanese made jet is flying for a US carrier ?

[jonseagull]

Think it's more a terms and conditions argument. Things work differently in the US to Europe. Can a US based pilot explain?

[captjns]

Where's a good union when you need one?


Oh… the majority of US pilots are members of a union, be it ALPA or IBT or their own in-house. Let’s leave the pilots of the in-house unions out of this discussion. They seem to have their act together. It’s not the union that creates the strength… it’s the pilots within the union that makes the strength… which in the US??? there is none, be it because they are so tired of the situation, or they just don’t give a damn.

The MEC’s and the union groups have passively allowed management erode benefits, and T & Cs of their contracts without any provision of restoration benefits or repayment of salary cuts. Management can be compared to a child. They will try to get away with inappropriate behavior without being checked… and you know what??? management has… and management will continue to do so. So at the end of the day who is responsible for crappy conditions… management??? or the union?

Kick these Do Gooder Third Party Union Representatives off the property and create more successful in-house unions. Better controls, and representation.

[Squawk7777]

ALPA National has no interest in Trans States. History has proven it. When Trans States was about to go on strike (99 or 2000), senior ALPA members pressured the then-MEC to stop the strike vote, because it would had been a financial disaster for TWA. The vote went ahead anyway, and was quite successful (99%), the highest vote in ALPA's history. The owner backed down, and the pilots got what they wanted - Industry Average.

ALPA National is also partly responsible for the single carrier issue between GoJets and Trans States Airlines. All I used to get was a propaganda periodical telling me what all good ALPA does. For whom?

The problem lies within ALPA itself. No interest for the regionals except collecting their dues.

What this is about? Outsourcing! Mainline jobs going to regionals. Don't be convinced that this won't happen in Euroland, with people like WW at BA. He'd be more than happy to put a external regional 90 seater on a route that was served by a 319 or similar...

[Huck]

All I used to get was a propaganda periodical telling me what all good ALPA does. For whom?

Those who were major airline captains on 12/2007 when the rule changed.....

[cwatters]

Mitsubishi Heavy said last month that it would delay delivery of its first passenger jet by three months to the first quarter of calendar 2014 as it switches to aluminium wings instead of carbon fibre for better fuel efficiency

Is that an error in the article?

[ChristiaanJ]

Mitsubishi Heavy said last month that it would delay delivery of its first passenger jet by three months to the first quarter of calendar 2014 as it switches to aluminium wings instead of carbon fibre for better fuel efficiency.Maybe they've already figured out something that Boeing hasn't?

CJ

[Jet_A_Knight]

And told Boeing too late.:hmm:

[411A]

More regional jets and fewer mainline jets...yup, that is what is needed...provided, of course, that amateurs are not hired to fly said regional jets.
Otherwise, count the dead bodies by the hundreds.
(Think Colgan Air Q400) X 10...or more.

[Global Driver]

You know, interestingly enough, I remember from the newhire class back at TSA after the ALPA reps came in and gave their whole spiel of how great ALPA is and what they do for you - the little pilot...
Afterwards he asked if there were any ex-TWA's in the room. He siad that he would speak to them afterwards.

For my money, ALPA definitely does small things. When I had my carpet dance in Zenders office that one time, they supplied me with a lawyer who only wanted to give in to the company - which I went against and won.

On the other hand, every TWA guy will tell you that the Union isn't worth much anymore today.

On the third hand, after speaking with guys out here in Europe that fly for the low cost carriers such as WIZZ and EASY and a couple others who DO NOT have any union/bargaining... Relztive to them, it does seem that the little that the union does do for us back in the US amounts to alot when you have no representation at all.

Lastly, I take no responsibility for the contents of my post... I too am on my first cup of coffee and cig... still a tad foggy.

P.S. I thought the Mitsubishi jet was that small tiny turbo prop plane that made noise equivilent to the TU154! One place that won't accept those jets will be CDG!

[TDK mk2]

I am one of the "amateurs". No college degree, self sponsored myself and somehow found myself in the left seat of a regional jet flying occasionally on mainline routes.

I regarded my union dues basically as insurance in case of an awkward situation but now find myself fighting a rear guard action to try and force the company to define it's redundancy criteria, which we look more and more likely to be subjected to when the mainline flying is terminated.

I accept that it is likely that the mainline components of the union have a far louder voice than our own regional ones, but at present there is no alternative and I intend to back them even if it does make me a target when the axe eventually falls.

[johnnd]

Wow, its good to hear from all the waterskis. I just met a guy who was a brother-in-law to our old favorite Director of Ops, initials MW. When he told me I couldn't stop laughing and he then told me "you would be laughing if that a*# hole was your brother-in-law".

When I had my carpet dance in Zenders office that one time, they supplied me with a lawyer who only wanted to give in to the company - which I went against and won.

LPA National has no interest in Trans States. History has proven it. When Trans States was about to go on strike (99 or 2000), senior ALPA members pressured the then-MEC to stop the strike vote, because it would had been a financial disaster for TWA. The vote went ahead anyway, and was quite successful (99%), the highest vote in ALPA's history. The owner backed down, and the pilots got what they wanted - Industry Average.

[cityfan]

Im not exactly sure where they THINK they are going to be flying these aircraft, or for whom, but they clearly see a niche that NEITHER Boeing nor Airbus intend to fill (90-120/150 seats).

As for the union banter, I will leave it to others, save to say that what TSA management did with TSA pilots and GoJet blows. ALPA, warts and all, is STILL THE VOICE of aviation safety and security in GLOBAL aviation, but will have to tread carefully as some of the largest contributors appear to have an increasingly smaller and smaller say in the day to day operations and direction of the Association. Therein lies a SIGNIFICANT problem, because if ALPA becomes THE REGIONAL Association, then their coffers will be a fraction of where it is today, which is already seen as "distressed."

With DAL/NWA being such a major contributor, ANY thought of them leaving due to regionals collective dominance would be devastating. Add a UAL/CAL combination and any thoughts of them leaving and the Association folds in on itself. Conversely, ADD AMR and throw USAPA back in the mix (unlikely considering their stated goals of staying SEPARATE from the Cactus pilots and NEVER agreeing to a merged contract) and you have an entire universe of independent operators and very little cohesion of purpose or assets. Food for thought.

[cityfan]

Squawk7777,

You might not have noticed, but OVER 50% of UAL domestic flying is done by OUTSOURCED regional carriers, but exempts an aircraft of the size of the MRJs. Already in 2009, outsourced RJ flying at UAL has INCREASED by double digit percentages, while the mainline flying has been reduced by double digits, with further mainline deterioration/RJ increases expected in 2010, all while UAL continues to promote an INTERNATIONAL OUTSOURCING with their Aer Lingus project......all while "negotiating" new contracts with EVERY employee group.

For some, who are now living under 1991 T&C, it is simply one more nail in an otherwise almost closed coffin.

[Sonny Hammond]

The MU-2 is back!!!!!

[Squawk7777]

I didn't expect to find that many Waterskiers here on pprune.

I believe Uncle H. took a close look at RAH and finally decided that he wants a piece of the cake, too. The way legacy carriers (especially UAL) are outsourcing he might win the gamble, unless scope becomes more important than pay for the senior guys.

Global Driver I know exactly what you're describing about the halfheartedly attorney, lemme guess ... are his initial N.D.? I was fortunate enough to do a carpet dance in front of Zehnder AND the fat b@stard, I thought he was working on Sudoku, and I too had to fight for myself. Company wanted to blame me for a mx f-up. BTW, did you upgrade May 07?

city fan Do you work for UAL? If so, how important has scope become? Any chance to stop the cancer called RAH and G7? :ugh:

For all current Waterskiers: Remember, there's an aviation life after Trans States. :ok:

Wow, its good to hear from all the waterskis. I just met a guy who was a brother-in-law to our old favorite Director of Ops, initials MW. When he told me I couldn't stop laughing and he then told me "you would be laughing if that a*# hole was your brother-in-law".

MW = Hoosier Daddy! LOL!!! :E

[Pugilistic Animus]

The MU-2 is back!!!!!


Don't let Con-Pilot hear you say that:ouch:

I think he'd rather fly the DC-2

PA

[Mechta]

Mitsubishi Heavy said last month that it would delay delivery ...... as it switches to aluminium wings instead of carbon fibre for better fuel efficiency

Yeah, right... more likely to prevent further project slippage. Its no coincidence that most, if not all, of the larger composite aircraft* developed, have had significant launch slippages. Such issues as electrical bonding, mechanical bonding, lightning protection, damage repair procedures, etc. all have designers begging for a return to traditional construction :ugh:.

*=
Beech Starship
V22 Osprey
A400M
B787