ATPL to dream or not to dream approaching 34?

[juniour jetset]

Thought I'd throw my situation into the world of PPrune for a bit of feedback both good or bad.

I am currently 33, but have always loved the world of aviation from the days of getting my Jetset logbook signed as youngster when I travelled long haul between South Africa and the UK. I even lived opposite a BA 737 now 777 Capt for 15 years and would often ask him about his work... The dream of being a pilot has always been there, I just got a bit distracted along the way. :ugh:

Finished school with GCSEs and ALevels and then went on to University, however during the holidays between my 1st and 2nd year, my dad died and this put me into a tail spin. However, I resolved to carry on studying and completed my degree in Geographical Sciences. After uni, I just wanted to be free for a while. So worked in the US, Australia and New Zealand in the world of skydiving (parachute packer, freefall photographer) - I even amassed 15 hours flying and flew solo a few times.

Back in the UK in 2002, I had a years stint at a regional airport working as an airside staff/ground handeler. For the last 5 years I have worked in Financial markets and have gained UK and International diplomas in financial analysis.

But the aviation dream still lies beneath.. so I have been applying/enquiring to a few training establishments about doing the ATPL intergrted course.

Got this response recently from one of them (although I won't name the establishment)..

However our Training Team found your age could be a limiting factor to start learning a pilot career, as you may have problems to find a job afterwards.

Please be informed that our experience to date has been that students who join the course age 30 and over tend to struggle more than younger students (the average student age on campus currently is 22-23)

When it comes to your job prospects at the end of the course we have to be honest with you and say that is it will be difficult to find employment with a large number of airlines.

You will be competing against guys and girls who will graduate with exactly the same flying qualifications as you, but few years younger.

Most airlines express a preference for taking on low hour pilots before they reach 27 years old. Any older and they are looking for experience commensurate with age, which you would not have. This is not to say that there are no jobs out there with airlines for more mature pilots who cannot afford a continuous flow through of young people.

For you to have any chance of employment even with these smaller airline though, you would need to perform extremely well in training -ie there would need to be some balancing plus to weigh against your age.

SO... any reflection on my age, situation, potential etc. would be most welcome.

All the best to all of you,
JJ

[x213a]

Good luck mate. I'm pretty certain that you have been informed of a worst case scenario. "Life experience" also counts.

I am not an ATPL holder so not really qualified to say. I base my opinion on what I have read on here the past 10 years.

[fisbangwollop]

Sadly it appears aviation in general is a game for the youngsters...even in my trade ATC the new recruits are just out of shorts!!! that said some of us are still in them at a grand old age!! :cool::cool::cool: I drive past Prestwick airport every day and see the young Ryanair pilots walking to work and most look like they have just left school!!!

That said good luck as without doubt working in aviation is the best job in the world.....I have spent 37 years doing in the job so far and still enjoy every minute of the job. :):)

[Groundloop]

Discussed many time in the past:-


http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/379307-perpetual-am-i-too-old-question-2009-a.html#post5024525

[IrishJetdriver]

Without doubt you know what's going on in the world.

IF you were to try it the you must accept you could be doing the training for nothing. You must be able both financially and psychologically prepared for that to happen. IF you can afford to do it and lose the lot and IF you feel you could cope with the stress of not getting a job and thus falling at the last hurdle and never realising your dream then I say "well why not?"

The timing is the only question. Now is absoloutely bloody horrendous. Maybe next year it will only be bloody horrendous and the year after just horrendous. Or maybe not. Who knows?

If you could start the training whilst keeping your current job then that's great and do it over as long as possible so that you could be ready at the right time. Of course you'll be getting older all the time and the job will most likely be ever harder to get.

If you want to be able to say "well i tried" and you had fun doing it and you don't feel bitter at the end for failing then go for it. The likelyhood has already been spelt out.

I did my commercial training in 1998/9 at 34 and it took 2 years to get a job. I did at that point have 1800hrs having learned to fly in 1984 and been a very part-time instructor for 13yrs.

Before you do spend any money get yourself a class 1 medical. Without which you won't even get to the start line.

Best of luck.

[juniour jetset]

Tks for your replies, some good points - especialy from Irishjetdriver. Will defintely ponder on this.

Yeah, agreed it seems a terrible time to be thinking of training. Being a financial analyst and a Macro one at that, I should have a better idea than most when to time it. But you just don't know if the economic recovery will be V shaped, U shaped, double dip or we go into a decade long deflation like Japan experienced from 1990 onwards.

Appreciate the time you spent to reply to my thread.

Sincerely,
JJ

[42ir]

Hi JJ

So you need to chase that dream I did at 40 plus now sitting on a F-ATPL/IRT /MCC 1350 hours and I am now fixing SLUICE machines :{B.A may call me tomorrow, if they do I may consider a position with them!:D
Would I do it again well all I can say is without a doubt, will you be respected for all that you will go through to get a licence not to mention the money the answer is NO.
If you train as a Doctor or Solicitor etc that would be different matter as they get a good wage to start with and respected from the start, but at the end of the day they cant fly you can;) (sorry docs and sols that can)
If you dont follow your dream it will mess up your life and if you do it may well:ugh:
I wish you all the very best please keep me informed

Regards

Tom

[Broomstick Flier]

JJ,

My advice is go for it.
I first started the path towards the CPL/IR back in the early nineties but due some financial problems, the plans stalled and I went over to work with flight operations (flight dispatching).

More recently (mid-2007) a short flight on a C182 with a mate of mine re-ignited the old passion and since then I not only got my PPL ticket but I'm also on the verge of taking my check ride for the CPL/IR.

Our industry is very broad and with the added age (I'm 35 now) we start to see thinks a bit differently than a 20ish year old. Airlines still attract me a lot, but bizjets, and even GA and flight instructions are also viable options.

On the other hand, I already prepared myself for not getting a job, but, the way I see it, I must at least take all possible steps to make me eligible for a flying job.

Good luck and enjoy every minute of it.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[BigNumber]

Remember that the option of paying for the TR ( and 500hrs ) is a possibility.

YOU CAN therefore realise the dream but you may be paying for the ride.

Just a thought.

[G SXTY]

Trial lesson aged 29, 7 years to qualify, CPL/IR aged 36 and an airline job within a few months. And that was via modular training and without having to pay for a type rating.

I’m nothing special, and I know quite a few others with similar stories. Turboprop operators in particular are often happy with older candidates, as they are more likely to stick around and not leave to fly an Airbus at the first opportunity. For what it’s worth, I think timing (as in timing the job market) and determination are much more important factors than age in securing your first job.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

G SXTY,

And what is wrong with flying the Airbus!!? ;)

Some good points here. If you have the right plan of action there is no reason why you cannot make your dreams a reality. It is a hard road but most certainly worth it. On the last intake with the company I work, they took a large range of ages, from 19 to 38.

All the best.

[G SXTY]

Airbus? Autothrottles and 3 axis autopilots? Pull out tray tables and hot food? You call that flying?

Pah! Give me the life of a one armed paper hanger and a TP salary any day of the week. :ok:

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Hahahahahahahaha.

Autothrottles? Autothrust sir ;). Traytables? Well I had a surprise the other day. Myself and the Captain were standing there in amazment to see that one tray table was missing, no where to put your grub!? I even looked it up in the MEL to make sure we could still go :ok:.

[powerstall]

Just ask yourself this question... Do you have a reason not to?

If you're really in it for the flying, would it really matter if you're flying on regionals, corporate, freight dog or a flight instructor. It's all up to you. :ok:

[n.dave]

JJ,

I am towards my late 20s now and currently doing my atpl. Me too, thinking whether I be able to compete with the guys much younger than me and we will end up the same licence(s) (fatpl). In my opinion, u have to think what i got that these guy havent got i.e. higher education, experiences etc. You have to believe yourself that you can do it. There is a probability that i may end up with a job or no job, but at least i know the outcome.

no risk no dream
hope it helps

n.dave

[Megaton]

Age 34! Finished IR/MCC at age 37. First TP job a few months later. One year on the Dash 8 then Airbus with a Big Airline. Five years on and looking forward to 777 course in the hopefully not too distant future or perhaps hanging on for a 380 course. All depends on your attitude to risk, critical assessment of your own potential and ability, commitment, cash and support from your nearest and dearest.

[tarnish26]

If its always been a dream to do it why wait till your 34 before you want to realise that dream??.......seems to me you may have missed the boat but as they say nothing ventured nothing gained!!

[BigNumber]

Not to mention some Biz Jet Jobs that actively recruit older applicants because some owners prefer them.

Certainly true of our CJ operation.

[TheBeak]

The truest thing that has been said is that it all comes down to your timing. Anyone can get an fATPL and a job whether they are 18 or 40, whether they achieve first time passes in everything or fail a few things, whether they trained modularly or integrated, whether they are a stable extrovert or an unstable introvert etc.

Get the timing wrong, regardless of your aptitude and personality, and you'll never make it without a great deal of further expense.

Get the timing right, with third time passes in your IR and low ATPL passes as I know a chap did from an integrated FTO and you'll get a job flying 737s (though it was with that bloody Irish airline).

It's also about how you approach your goal of becoming a paid pilot. To quote General George Patton:

“Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics will destroy even the best strategy.”

[Leezyjet]

Totally agree with you there Beak.

I started my PPL about a week before my 30th b/day and finished my MCC the day before my 34th b/day. Sadly that was this year so I am in complete agreement that timing is everything. I've not had a sniff of anything since I qualified, and the only operator to even reply to an application was Jet Republic !!!. :uhoh:

I stalled my training along the way too, partly due to a fear of the Atpl ground school, thinking I was too thick to do it, then struggling to do self study for 18 months before biting the bullet, taking 8 months off work and doing the ground school full time (which in my heart of hearts I knew I should have done all along as I am not disciplined enough to sit and teach myself but learn well with someone instructing me). I actually found it much easier than I ever could have imagined and was kicking myself that I didn't go residential from the beginning. The only other park of my training I did full time was the PPL which I did in just under 3 weeks. The rest, I managed to do around work just taking the odd day off here and there.

Had I have managed my training a little better and had more confidence in myself a bit sooner then I would have finished in the middle of the upturn and may have walked straight into a job, but we live and learn.

If you are starting flying later in life, you just have to be more realistic in your expectations. You are probably not going to make Capt at BA for example, but no reason why you shouldn't at a smaller charter/lo-co/regional/cargo/ airline.

I would think that now might be a good time to start training if you are going to carry on working and go modular and spread the training out over a couple of years to give the market chance to pick up whilst still progressing and having less to do when it does. Giving up work and going integrated is probably not a good idea at the moment though at least until the market shows some signs of recovery.

:)

[jxc]

I would agree with last post go modular. i am 37 and just started bristol groundschool i aim to take a year doing the study then do the cpl then see what the market is doing hopefully on the way up

Good luck

[juniour jetset]

Thanks people for the continued feedback, just the kind of stuff I was after and some great personal stories to boot! Congrats to those of you who made the dream happen - creating one's own luck:ok:

So far, I'm thinking if you want it bad enough you can get it, although might not be instant and patience will defintely be needed in getting one's foot in the door for that first job - the timing issue!!

Defintely leaning towards a modular root, whilst having a back up plan to earn through finance if jobs are hard to come by at time of completion.

JJ

[P1 Forever]

Hi JJ

Well I personally think there are pros and cons for being young or older, as being younger you might have a better chance of getting a sponsored/payed for type rating on a airbus/boeing jet whereas being older your more likely have a better chance getting a job on a turboprop or bizjet. The bizjet operators are more keen on older applicants as you are in more direct contact with the customer and although your low hours the people in the back don't know that and think you've been flying for years.

I think age was more of an issue 10 years ago as what you've got to remember is that as long as you can hold a class 1 medical then you can retire at 65 therefore someone who gains there fATPL at 35 has potentially 30 years ahead of them. BA used to retire pilots at 55, its now 65, so I dont see any reason why you couldnt get a position with them and go on to get your command, Ham Phisted being a great example of what can be done.

However, as has been said before timing in this game is everything and now is certainly not a good time to be looking for a flying job but you could start modular and see how it goes.

JJ check your pms

All the best!!!

P1.

[juniour jetset]

Thanks P1 forever,

Some great points. I quite like the idea of going modular and easing into the commercial pilot world, whilts also keeping another career option open and then try to pounce on that first job when the job market is more viberant and do all you can to come across as a really good mature candidate.

cheers,
JJ

[EGCC4284]

I’ll be brief

Left school at 16 with no qualifications what so ever. All I wanted to do was be a truck driver.

Got a van driving job at 17, got a 7 and half tonne truck driving job at 19 and passed my HGV Class 1 at 21. Drove trucks for 10 years between the age of 21 and 31. Drove chemical waste tankers for 6 years and drove for Eddie Stobart Ltd for 3 years.

At the age of 31, got a job at Manchester Airport for Shell Aviation as an aircraft refueller. It was here that the dream to be a pilot was born.

I did modular training in August 1999 did a 4 week PPL course at the age of 32.

Took until Sept 2005 to pass IR and 2 weeks later got my MCC

It then took another 18 months to get a job. 3 interviews later, got offered 2 jobs and took the one with Thomsonfly aged 39 and with 440 hours. I keep telling everyone this, but I also add I was very very very lucky, but then I also add that I made my own luck.

3 years later aged 42 and with 1300 hours on the 737, I am being made redundant. Me and about 100 other Thomson pilots have been for an interview with Qatar Airways in the last 2 months. I am now just waiting to hear back from them with regards a start date. I may end up on their Airbus 320’s or 777 doing ultra long haul.

So juniour jetset, its up to you what you do. What I would say is this. Ignore all that say you will fail. Just smile at them and get on with it.

At my Thomsonfly interview, I was told I would struggle with a type rating because of my age etc etc etc, I said “I understand you thinking that” and just kept smiling. I sold myself to them and 3 days later got a phone call offering a job.

If you go to a full time school, you’re the customer and not them, remember that. They are there to train you. When your trained, its up to you to get the job, not them.

[LAX]

Life is good and you can do anything you want to do, 2 pieces of advice:-

1. As others have stated timing is everything.

2. Do not "DO NOT" get yourself into vasts amounts of debt for this career. Its a great job but not worth paying vast amounts of your $$$/month to the bank. You must have a life.

1991, Age 19 First Solo!

1992, Quit flyin no money as at University!

2001, hated my boss so much started learning to fly again.

2004, quit, told my boss to stick his job - they begged me to stay!

2005, first commercial flying job.

2009, B737 Captain:ok:

Good luck. Remember timing, no debt! Age, well, whatever!

EGCC---- Good luck, all the best. Hope you find another job soon.

[fanda78]

JJ: I'm approaching 32 and hope to finish training this year.
go for it!:ok:

[Grass strip basher]

With this Qatar airways job.... I assume it is based in Doha.... have you ever been to Doha?? It is rather different to living in the UK to say the least.... hardly the most exciting place on the planet :bored:

My point it is might sound glam working for Qatar airways if you have never been/lived in the Middle East but in your late 30s/early 40s moving to somewhere like Doha is not to be taken lightly...

[ford cortina]

JJ,
Started PPLat 33
ATPL's done by 35
CPL, IR by 36
MCC 37
Got a Jet Job 38, now drive a 737 NG and Classic and really enjoying it.
Don't listen to the nahsayers, it can be done.
FC

[mirogster]

Dude just GO 4 IT!

Pros:
1.Living a life dream - priceless feeling at the very last moment of Your life.
2.You can have other job than flying, at any future worst scenario.

Cons:
1. Waste tons of $$$$, lifetime at any future worst scenario (=no jobs offer after finishing the training). But its only $$$$ and You tried.
2. Probably no BA cpt seat, BUT WHO CARES bout BA if You can fly turboprops, bizjets or doing FI.

All the best & stay forsty!

PS. I´m older than You and I´m starting my PPL this year.

[kwb911]

With this Qatar airways job.... I assume it is based in Doha.... have you ever been to Doha?? It is rather different to living in the UK to say the least.... hardly the most exciting place on the planet http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif

My point it is might sound glam working for Qatar airways if you have never been/lived in the Middle East but in your late 30s/early 40s moving to somewhere like Doha is not to be taken lightly...


The Thompson guys are going for an interview because they are losing their jobs and this has been arranged between Thompson and Qatar to try and save redundancy.

Might not be the best place in the world but its still a job.

[TopGunGB]

I think 34 is a perfectly reasonable age to begin training. My ground school course had five or six guys in their 30s, and two more were in their 40s. Those guys were older than the rest of us, but they were a determined bunch with outstanding exam results.

[juniour jetset]

Thanks to all you people with positive input. In life you have the dreamers and the infidels when it comes to a subject like this- like the positive folk on here with all their encouragement, I too believe in daring to dream and that limiting thoughts are just that and one must rise above them to achieve one's real life dreams.

Many thanks,

JJ

[D O Guerrero]

Junior - I think you should say who sent you that letter in your first post! It's total, total garbage. There were several people on my course that were over 30, including myself and I think it is fair to say we massively outperformed the youngsters as a group. Each and every old bloke on my course got a good job too - all on jets.
Experience, attitude and desire to succeed are important factors in ATPL success and from what I've seen (I'm generalising) these seem to be qualities that older people can bring to the table. Don't let anyone tell you you're too old. I started at age 32 in 2006 and am now in a great job in the left hand seat of a modern jet.