Spotters jailed in Greece!

[Cyclic Hotline]

Britons face spy charges in Greece

ATHENS (Reuters) - Twelve Britons are due to appear in a Greek court on Monday charged with spying, a British diplomat has said.

The tourists, who were visiting an air show in the south western town of Kalamata, were arrested on November 8 and were still in custody.

"They have been charged and there will be a court hearing tomorrow," British embassy consul Donald Holden told Reuters.

The detainees had legal representation and were in good health, he said.

Many Greek airbases had open days on November 8 which marks the feast day of Michael, the patron saint of the air force.

The Britons, 11 men and a woman, have denied the charges and say they are members of an aviation enthusiasts' club in the UK.

The court will decide whether there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial, or dismiss it.

Photographing military installations in Greece is strictly forbidden.

[BEagle]

I guess it was the little aluminium stepladders which gave them away......

[VP8]

Or the anorak and duffel bag!!!

VP8 :D

[tony draper]

Just been a item on the news about this,they were on a arranged paid plane spotting holiday, on a airbase on a open day?, their camera's left on the bus because they were aware of the laws concerning photographing military instalations.
I think Johnny the greek is after exchanging them for those Elgin Marbles. ;)

[pana]

Bah! Blo*dy Balkans
:cool:

[microwave]

During the Kosovo war, I went to a joint military / civilian airfeld, to do a compass swing on an aircraft. I set up the watts datum compass, in preperation for the swing. Minutes later, the tower called on the radio, requesting that we remove the camera!

We reminded them why we were their and what the equipment was, ie. just a compass.

Just shows you how strict they might be.

[Wycombe]

....apparently they also had written permission to attend from the Greek Authorities, beats the hell outta me!

The organisers publicity blurb can be found at the following:

Touchdown Tours (http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/2001_Tours.htm)

[Jackonicko]

These airshows are apparently intended for families and locals, and are certainly s'posed to be for Greek citizens only.

And this rather accident prone tour operator should have known that.

One can only hope that this misunderstanding will be quickly and panlessly resolved however, without the need for a Kebab/yoghurt embargo.

[Capt Widebody]

Latest statistics have also revealed that 2.5 train spotters get knocked down by trains every year. There are omens to be followed and morals to be drawn everywhere these days :)

And Tony, as for the Elgin Marbles, boll**ks to that! Just let the Greeks have Elgin; we'll keep hold of the marbles!! :cool:

[Kiting for Boys]

How about sending the marbles to a new Greek-owned and run Parthenon museum in Elgin?

Surely an opportunity for the new Scottish First Minister to help resolve an international crisis....

[Self Loading Freight]

That new Greek GSCE: exclusive preview.

Translate the following phrases into demotic Greek (10 marks):

1. I am only looking at your planes because they give me a stiffie.

2. The weather is hot, but I will not remove my anorak.

3. This taramasalata in pitta bread is no good. Do you have fishpaste in Kingsmill?

4. My scanner has fallen into the ouzo.

5. Although these are times of international tension, I assert my basic human right to fill my notebook with details of your air movements.

6. Your airfield is big, but not as big as that of the Turks.

7. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my biro.

8. Is that an ELINT aircraft hiding behind the tree?

9. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. OUCH. Please use a rubber glove when you remove my copy of Jane's.

10. And let me know if you ever do find the biro.

R

[Jackonicko]

In view of what a well-known publisher of spotters' books of numbers was jailed for some years ago, your point 7 (biro up the @rse) is very funny, I mean in very poor taste.

Funny that the press didn't pick up on the poor sod allegedly killed by T*******n T***s last year......

Perhaps they will, now!

[Greg Baddeley]

All joking aside, it's a very serious matter not only for the individuals who have been detained, but also their families.
I have known one of the detainees for 30 years, and I found out on Saturday when his wife called me, in tears, to ask if I could help.

Since then, approaches have been made to MP's, MEP's, the Greek Embassy, Greek Defence Ministry, UK Foreign Office and others.

These people face serious charges because of a misunderstanding; the tour was approved by the Greek Authorities, with a "no photos at the Air Show" clause. This was adhered to.

Whilst it's the done thing to mock plane spotting, many enthusiasts are either part of the industry, or end up as part of it through their interests.

At the end of the day, these people have families and loved ones desperate for their release; some homes in the UK have been under siege by the media, :mad: :mad:

We all hope that Friday will bring good news, but if any ppruners know of a way to assist, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks to all.

[Jackonicko]

I’m normally fairly ‘pro-spotter’, since some of them read my deathless prose and buy my books, and help pay my wages. Many sensible members of the forces, and the aviation industry, begin with ‘spotterish tendencies’. But I’ve never understood the fanatical desire some of them have for noting down every number, and for seeing every last example of a particular aircraft type present at a particular base, without wanting to take photos, learn more about what they’re seeing, watch them fly, talk to air and groundcrew, etc. I’ve laughed and poked fun at spotters (haven’t we all) but I’ve begun to stop laughing at the new ‘Guerrilla Spotter’ types who will go to any lengths to ‘log numbers’, ignoring the law and good sense in their pursuit of maximising the number of numbers they jot down.

It seems that the chap who runs the organisation which organised the trip to Greece (T******** T****) reportedly has a record as being just such a ‘Guerrilla Spotter’, and today I’ve come across three different enthusiast's reports of his prior activities. This doesn't mean that all Spotters should be tarred with this brush, nor even that all of those on this trip deserve to be associated with him.

ONE:
“That went down well here - and with a few of my mates, who hate that T******** creep. He is a real *******, and l intend to put the bastard out of business. Fancy getting all those anoraks arrested !!! Poor smelly sods. Greasy hair, fat, bloated, and that's just the Greek prison warders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes. They were driving two minibuses along in Texas ( ?), and there was a road accident, details unknown, in which one of the passengers was thrown from the vehicle and hit by a truck. The guy was an air traffic contrroller, l believe, and he was brought home in an RAF C-130.

This Paul bloke from T******* is an arrogant bastard, and most unfriendly, until he wants something. Then he is nice as pie. They can let the rest come home, but detain him indefinitely.”


TWO:
“I have just read the BBC report on the internet. It seems the Greeks have taken the issue of "spotting" as espionage. It seems also that what is acceptable to us here in England, as an ordinary everyday past time, is viewed with distrust elsewhere. I believe Messrs T******** were apprehended at a Romanian base in August, which cost me and my party, who were at another Romanian base at the time, a lost visit to the Hong (IL-28) base. Eventually the Romanians relented, and re-arranged the visit, but it was touch and go. I firmly believe that the activities of T********, border on the dangerous,and anyone thinking of going on such visits should seriously consider their welfare. The order of the day seems to be, get every number, no matter what....

Anyone who has been on a T******** tour care to comment ??

I for one will not be going anywhere near a T******** tour, but then l am only a photographer, and no longer a spotter.”


THREE:
“The incident in Romania you refer to was recounted to me the other day by a friend, apparantly, at a base in Romania there was a large group of stored MiG's which were inaccessable to Paul and the T******** party, they tried driving a minibus around to the MiG's but were turned back by an armed guard. Not content with this they drove around the outside of the base until they reached the closest point to the line up where Paul parked the minibus and climbed over the rather small fence and walked over to the MiG's. Here he was greeted by the same guard who was by now understandably quite angry, 7 hours of questioning later they were instructed to leave the country and not to visit the airshow at Constanta or any other Romanian airfields. Did they leave, naaah, they just went to the show. As told to me, I have no idea how true it is.

Another incident is alleged to have occurred in Turkey earlier this year during the anniversary airshow. I am led to believe that the group were collared at Bandirma, I don't know why, and released after questioning. At the airshow Paul took it upon himself to enter a fenced off shelter compound and enter approximately 20 hardened shelter doors (the small personal entry doors to the rear, not the main doors!!) to read off T-37's within. He was lucky, he didn't get caught. If he had I doubt he would have been able to visit Greece! If indeed this story is true- again I have no idea, I wasn't there.

If either of these stories has been told to me wrongly then I apologise and feel free to correct me. I don't know how true these stories are but ........ having travelled far and wide with them I have to say I would not be surprised at all....... I have seen Paul break into a hanger through an unlocked window so that he could read off the 2 or 3 UH-1's inside! I made a conscious decision 5 or so years ago that life really was too short to risk it on a T******** tour. I loved the trips I really didn't feel it worth the risk.”

Makes you wonder whether our sympathy is well-placed?

[BEagle]

Jacko' has a point - the harmless observation of aircraft is one thing, but forced entry, trespass and refusing to obey the directions of the security personnel would indeed look like espionage to some.

However, just to confuse the sort of ar$e who (we knew) would be likely to poke a lens through an office window at an 'Open Day' in order to get inside knowledge of aircraft serviceability, etc, someone (can't imagine who.....) once drew up a splendid spoof serviceability board with all sorts of nonsense on it and left it on the office wall opposite the largest window at a particular RAF base.

I wonder whether the bloke with the all the badges and the notebook is still pondering the 'Sidewinder mod. programme' for the 'reserve Hunter fleet'.........??

[DamienB]

LOL. Of course the Swiss fitted Sidewinders to some of their Hunters...

Touchdown Tours (why the asterisks Jacko? The name has been widely reported) do indeed have a bit of a rep for sailing close to the wind, and Paul wossname isn't the most popular chap around. Notably he was just about the only person to continue posting detailed info on movements at Mildenhall after September 11, when most sane spotters had retired to their hovels for some gardening rather than bothering twitchy security bods and providing info of possible use to the Forces of Evil (however unlikely).

[Jackonicko]

When I was first told that it was P**l P**p*n's mob, I was told "Please don't tell anyone that its T******** t***s. Drop hints so that people who know who they are will know, but don't spell it out in black and white." Hence the asterisks.

Good point on the Mildenhall movements, BTW. Most spotters have been very responsible about not reporting and circulating info relating to 'Enduring Freedom' and 'Veritas', whereas T*8 have reportedly listed all movements on their site. Do you have the URL for it, 'cos I'm embarrassed to say that I'm slagging them off on the basis of second hand info, and haven't ever looked at it.

Good game, BEagle, you incorrigible old rogue, you!

[DamienB]

Their mailing list is to be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Touchdown-News

They do not appear to have a web site as such for reporting movements, but have this site for their tours (it makes funny reading right now):
http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/2001_Tours.htm

And piccies from last year's Greek trip here (but surely their cameras were left in the van?!):

http://www.btinternet.com/~zola25/

[ 15 November 2001: Message edited by: DeeBee ]

[Greg Baddeley]

Well, you've all made your points of view quite clear, I must say.

Whatever the group may or may not have done is of course open to much speculation, but of course without rumours, we'd have no forum anyway.

My original posting was as much for the families of the detainees as for the miscreants themselves. You could argue that they knew the risks and shouldn't have gone, that's of no help to wives, children, fathers, mothers...I could go on.

Aviation is a world-wide affair, we can all get in trouble in a foreign land through misunderstandings and I'd like to think that we're a network with similar interest in aviation - we don't just do it for the money, as I'm sure we all remind ourselves when that meagre paycheck arrives.

I don't know every member of the party in Greece, but I'm willing to wager that some of them are connected with the aviation industry, and as such, worthy of our help.

So, I'll get off the soapbox now, if nobody gives a rat's about Paul, then fair enough, but as I said originally, I have known one of the guys for 30 years, and he's got a wife and kids wondering if he's coming home this week. Do it for them, eh?????

[Jackonicko]

Just adding a 'point of information' which had some bearing on the matter, especially in view of the "Innocent victims of Greek over-reaction" line that has been pushed.

On this occasion they may have been completely innocent and entirely blameless, and even if they weren't, I'd have though that deporting them and confiscating equipment would have been less of an over-reaction than locking them up and charging them with espionage.

I hope they all come home to their families (who are undeniably innocent victims) safe, sound and soon - and if any wrong was done, perhaps chastened and wiser, too.

[Greg Baddeley]

Good point, Jackonicko; I certainly would not visit a Greek airbase under any circumstances, those guys are too damned unpredictable. The members of the group all knew Greece's history (or should have done) in dealing with perceived spying by spotters, and if they've been reckless, they sure have suffered now. If they acted by the rules, then they've suffered even more. It will be a very chastened bunch that do return, whenever that might be..............

[Jackonicko]

A friend sent me this, that he'd been sent by the guy involved (sorry, don't know who he was).

I think that you will find that they have not been charged with "spying" or
"espionage" as such. If the Greek authorities are going the same way as they
did with me back in '88, they will be charged with being in posession of
classified information and photographs of military installations.

When I was in greece back in 1988, on arrival in Athens I had an interview
with a Colonel at the Greek defence HQ. I explained to him the hobby, showed
him books and photographs. He told me that taking photographs of Greek
military aircraft was forbidden, but looking at them from a public place was
OK.

I went from Athens to Elefsis/Megara/Tatoi/Volos/Larissa/Stefanavikion to
Thesaloniki without any problems and took no photographs but logged a lot.
On several occasions I was joined at the fence by guards who seemed
interested in my telescope and exchanging cigarettes, nothing else! At
Thesaloniki I took three photographs, two were in the aeroclub museum of the
F86 and C47 preserved there with the permission of the museum curator, and
one of an Ethiopian AF An.12 on the ramp. I was arrested the next day on the
viewing balcony.

At the trial (where I had no representation or translator), the photographs
were held up as evidence as in the background the hardened shelters could be
seen. This and my log book from the earlier base visits was enough to secure
my conviction.

The charge was translated in the press as "spying" or "espionage", but the
literal charge was of being in posession of classified information (the
contents of my log book) and the 3 photographs (even if none were of active
Greek aircraft).

The sentence was 14 months.

When the consular staff and lawyers returned from their Easter holiday (the
reason why I had no representation!), the allocated lawyer put in an appeal,
which was heard three and a half months later (very quick by Greek
standards!) at which the conviction was overturned and I was released.
Needless to say, there was no question of any compensation! Luckily, my
employers were very understanding and held my job for me.

Not wishing to put a gloomy note to the whole affair (any more than exists
already), but it would not surprise me if the current case goes very much
the same way. As Costas has already pointed out, nobody, especially the
Greek authorities, believe the Fab 14 to be spies. However, the fact that
the trial has been postponed a couple of times seems to indicate that they
are very unhappy with either the contents of some log books and/or
photographs. If there is somebody's reputation on the line you can bet your
bottom dollar that they will push for a conviction.

On a lighter note, whilst I was being questioned by two Greek MI guys, they
asked me why I was interested in Missiles as well as aircraft. When I told
them that I was not, they pointed out that I had put a rng around
Dekelia/Tatoi on my road map. This was where their missiles were based they
informed me! They then told me that I had the numbers of Hawk missiles in my
note book - this turned out to be RAF Hawks at the previous years Abingdon
BoB show!!

[Man-on-the-fence]

Hey chaps Jacko is a closet spotter, he got that from the Mil Spotters Forum :D :D

And before you have a go, check my profile :cool:

[Skylark 4 BLW]

Chaps,

As an aviation enthusiast (i.e a photographer, not a 'number cruncher')it was with concern I heard about these guys (and lady). Leaving personalities aside, we should not forget that these are presumably British Citizens who have been detained doing something they no doubt thought they had permission to do.

Having been on another well known Operator's tour of the USA last October (Hi Alan!), I was very impressed as to the opportunities and courtesy extended to us, but I do think the majority of 'Enthusiasts' have the sense to know when not to push their luck. Clearly there are one or two individuals who are too stupid to realise the risks they take, but I do not think we should tar them all with the same brush.

I certainly though will think twice about trying to watch any aircraft in Greece (Hmmm....funny, the Greek aircrew were quite happy to let my friend photograph both cockpits of their Mirage 2000 at Waddie this year...!!)next time I'm there! As to whoever suggested forfeiture of all their kit, can I point out that the photographic equipment I have amassed over the years through frankly hard bloody slog amoounts to a few bobs worth and I would not be happy to let it go on the whim of some contradictory Greek authority.

As I said at the start, I expect these guys thought they had the permission to do what they were doing in the same way we did in the States last year. Lets just hope that enough political pressure is brought to bear (Tony, are you listening....??) for common sense to prevail for these guys to be sent home with a flea in their ear and their equipment (maybe minus film) intact.

After all, there but for the grace of god etc...

[Jackonicko]

MotF

Closet spotter? How dare you, I've never even seen Mil Spotters......

OK, I did once try to subscribe (wanted to check what was being said about deployments when writing a piece about security) but wasn't allowed to - presumably 'cos I used Hotmail!

But at least I know where my mate Jimmy got the letter from, and can rib him accordingly!

I still think there's been some foolishness here, and believe that when we know the full facts, it may be that an element of punishment may be appropriate - at least for the organiser.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Jacko

I am inclined to agree with you :(

Speaking as a spotter/photographer (well some of the time - and no I dont own an anorak) I have always known Greece is a no-no cause you get pulled by the beak.

The organisers of this group have a rapidly growing reputation for recklessness even before this happened. Add that to their steadfast refusal to stop publishing movements at US bases in this country even at a time of heightened security and the comments on the website and it appears theirs was a accident waiting to happen. :(

Its sad and I hope they do get out...I just cant see it happening soon.

I have also just heard that they have been formaly charged with espionage..It doesn't look good

[Skylark 4 BLW]

MOTF, Jacko,

I agree with you both, all I am trying to say is that I dont think any self respecting enthusiast would EVER do anything that would compromise the security or safety of any aircrew by way of so called 'Espionage'.

If anyone does (and by the sound of it Touchdown have been pretty stupid in continuing to publish base movements in the current climate), then they deserve all they get and hell, I'll even hold the step ladder when you're stringing them up!

The point I am trying to make, is that there is espionage and then there is getting carried away. I think what they did clearly comes into the later and should not be confused with a deliberate attempt to undermine a country's defences. Hell, what have Greece got that is so damn special anyway...??

[Greg Baddeley]

Well, the latest is they're still held, whilst the Greek judge considers evidence from "experts" who have looked at films and notebooks. Could return to court on Friday, but going on past performance, it could drag on.
I've a feeling that this is going to hit the news in a big way now
:( :( :(

[Jackonicko]

Well actually the latest is that they face fresh charges, the Greeks having discovered photos and notebook entries indicating that they'd previously gone to and been naught at an airbase for which they had no permission at all.

Ooooops!

Hope they like Taramasalata and *******.....

[Greg Baddeley]

It's developing all the time, Jacko...the group's lawyer seems to be of the opinion that individual charges may be on the cards.

Not an ideal situation, as it could mean that certain members of the group go free, and others stay behind, but for those who have genuinely done nothing untoward, possibly some good news.

I personally would like them all to be released, they have already been punished to a far greater extent than they would have been in any other EC or NATO member state (Except perhaps Turkey :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

Further punishment in the UK by way of being ostracised (ouch!) by the rest of the enthusiasts' community would surely follow.

But if it's a case of 'some or none' then for the benefit of the families of any of the group who can prove that they did not misbehave, maybe it's a move to be accepted.

[tony draper]

Didn't know those Greeks had any aircraft,
thought their military favoured ground based stealth vehicles shaped like quadrapeds. ;)

[Jackonicko]

Nopax

I believe that the organiser may have been criminally stupid and irresponsible. I see no problem in him facing the full weight of the Greek law, which should perhaps also fall on those who encouraged him to 'push it'. People like this are giving aviation enthusiasts a bad name, and perhaps it's high time for a 'lesson'. Anyone on the tour who didn't question what he was doing and failed to object to where he was taking them were simply stupid, however, and I hope that their ordeal is over soon.

D

Of course they have aircraft, and I'll thank you not to trivialise this important thread with ill-placed humour. The Greeks have a legitimate reason for not liking people taking photos of their aircraft, since by doing so, any enemy might see what sort of wax they use to stick the feathers on - and it is a new formulation since Pilot Officer Icarus's unfortunate Cat 5.......

[Greg Baddeley]

I'm inclined to agree with you, Jacko...from talking to those who have been in direct contact with one of the detainees last night,any of the party who are convinced that they can prove they have done no wrong according to the agreement that was in place with the authorities now believe that individual charges are in order, and they will come home, leaving the rest behind.

It seems the original lawyer (who spoke no English!?!?!?) Advised the group, presumably via an interpreter, that a combined plea of innocence was the way to go. This has now been re-considered, but of course it all takes loads of time, given the laborious legal process out there.

I only know one of the party personally, and we're all hoping now that he's got no case to answer. Perhaps it's selfish to separate away from the rest and say "it wasn't me" but then again, if one or more members of the group acted rashly in the face of known intolerance by the Greeks, it was selfish of them to put the whole tour at risk.

Such is life, I suppose; I'm just hoping for a good result very soon, there's been nothing but disappointment so far.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Although I am a pro-European, this kind of thing points up the fact that Europe can only stretch so far. Greece and Turkey are part of Europe in name only, and some of the future EC members are even less credible.
What's the Greek word for Human Rights?

[Jackonicko]

If reports that they went out looking for and photographing the Greek's new Erieye AEW aircraft are correct, then I'm not surprised that they were arrested. Wonder how we'd deal with a load of Balkan spotters trying the same with No.51 Squadron's Nimrods, or No.39's Canberras, or whatever, or foreign demonstrators at Faslane? We might not lock them up, but the French certainly would.

We all know that the Greeks and Turks are a bit paranoid about security - any sensible human would take account of this when planning their activities - rather than whingeing about human rights after such a self-inflicted injury.

[Kiting for Boys]

Todays 'Times' p20

Cartoon of
Harry Spotter & the Prisoner of Kalamata

[Greg Baddeley]

The whole story's getting rather confused - yesterday it was alleged that they had been to Megara, which is a Greek Army helicopter base - oops, I shouldn't know that; maybe I'm a spy as well :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyhow, it also apperas that the tour had been shadowed by Greek secret services for several days, which could only mean that the itinerary which had been agreed with the authorites had been passed on to enable the shadowing to take place - so who's spying now, eh??????

Anyhow, looks like George Papandreaou is going to visit them in prison tomorrow, which should be a good sign. He's reportedly keen to get the matter cleared up soon, before we all cancel our trips to the sun next year...........

BTW, RIP Bee Beamont; a life well spent, I think. My dad's an ex-Lightning man, and knew him too.

[tony draper]

Does seem a bit over the top, when you think people don't seem to be remmanded even for murder here now, they are just asked nicely, will you please attend court on such and such a date, and not to worry to much as a life sentence is only 8 years now anyway. :(

[Greg Baddeley]

Even if they do get banged up, at least they get a room with all home comforts. As I said earlier, I know one of the detainees, and he had to buy a plate from the prison shop, because they had two plates between four people in his cell!

[Evanelpus]

Hey, nopax..maybe they can ask for a room that overlooks the runway.

Do you honestly believe that Jo Public is going to be banging on the door at Thomas Cook asking for refunds on next years trip to Crete, I think not.

Unless you are closely involved with the hobby, this news story is viewed as a bunch of anoraks getting arrested for the 'up market' version of train spotting. Please don't kid yourself that tourism will suffer one jot because of this.

On a personal note, I hope those who have no charges to answer are released asap. Those that do can expect no sympathy from me.

[Jackonicko]

Mrs Spotter (sitting in the van reading a book) is in "Korydallos prison..... reputed to be one of the toughest jails in Greece where police have previously had to use teargas to keep rioters at bay. Five years ago a foreigner awaiting trial there was hanged and burned by other inmates."

She's in maximum security, the men are in medium!

[Greg Baddeley]

Hey Evanelpus; I think (and privately hope) that it's not that the filthy hordes from the UK package tours will stop coming - it's just that the Greeks think they might; and in the light of Sept. 11th, bookings will be down anyway.

I say bring 'em home before it gets too embarassing for all parties concerened; the UK Foreign Office have done nowt that could be noticed, and the authorities in Greece are looking heavy-handed.

Touchdown tours looks finished, because no-one will take the risk of going with them anymore.

But then what would I know, I'm only a spy..................................

[Evanelpus]

Well said nopax, I like the cut of your jib!

[Greg Baddeley]

Whoops........didn't realise I had my jib out!!!!!!!

[MarkD]

Pity the Greek police wouldn't spend their time hunting punters who shoot British officers in the street as opposed to locking up anoraks from a fellow NATO country...

[Steepclimb]

Call me pedantic, but if you go to a country where it is illegal to take photos of military facilities without permission under the strict proviso that you do not take pictures without permission and you do take pictures of military facilities without permission, you have broken the law. Open and shut case.

Far too many people in this part of the world tend to believe that because the law in foreign country is stupid they don't have to obey it. Well I have news for you, you do have to obey those laws, stupid or not.

Sure those people will be released, no doubt they will arrive home full of righteous indignation. But they deserve their treatment if guilty.

They're not the first spotters to be arrested and won't be the last. Spotting really is a peculiar activity, combining number obsession with collecting compulsion.
A form of Autism perhaps?
It does seem to be particularly prevalent among the English and the Dutch. A particular national characteristic?

At the end of it all, would we be perhaps quite so tolerant of a bunch of Arab looking types hanging over the fence at some base in Britain or America 'spotting'? I doubt it.

[Greg Baddeley]

Steepclimb - yes; you are pedantic. It's not only the question of what's ALLEGED to have been done by these miscreants, but the treatment of them. Maybe because the group had been advised that a combined "not guilty" plea would get them off the hook more or less straight away, they have unwittingly delayed the final outcome. However, it's now quite plain that the only female in the group was not involved in any spotting activity, yet she has been placed in the worst predicament.

The Greeks have been quite intransigent in this matter so far, and combined with the UK Foreign office's inactivity, it's become a diplomatic crisis. I agree that it's a dodgy place to go looking for aircraft, given it's history, but many tours have gone off without a hitch. We don't know the full details of who did what, but to be detained in prison for this length of time is quite a punishment already. More could follow in the way of travel restrictions for them when they return, and the Tour organiser won't find many takers for any future trips, if he should ever plan any.

Autism? Please don't be so insulting, this is a serious matter for the families of those involved; also I don't think that the English or Dutch would be too pleased to read that.

As to being tolerant of suspicious looking Arab types.....you been to North London lately?

Anyway, lots of political interest now, and I hope that for the sake of all concerned (and I include all three countries here) the matter is swiftly resolved.

[Forque de Tung]

Today's Times2 (29 Nov 01) page 5 has an enlightening article by the wife of a spotter, Judy Astley. One can only extend sincere sympathy to the lady.
Having lived in the region for some years, I can confirm that that Greeks are not rational beings. They should recognise that anyone with a serious interest in their military kit/capability/readiness already knows everything there is to know. And if anyone seriously wanted to spy on them, would they drive around in an ostentatious group waving cameras and binoculars? Buncha clots. :mad:

[DamienB]

nopaxthanx wrote:
I agree that it's a dodgy place to go looking for aircraft, given it's history, but many tours have gone off without a hitch.

...and many haven't. Have heard from a few people recently who spent time in Greek jails for exactly the same sort of thing. There is certainly precedence for what is happening - it can hardly be a total shock to those involved particularly given the comments on Touchdown's own web site!

Anyway, it looks like political pressure is increasing so hopefully they'll be home soon.

I wonder how the UK government would react to this sort of pressure about holding, say, a bunch of Irishmen found skulking about an army base with cameras and scanners... particularly given the anti-terrorism legislation about to go through, which as I recall would make it legal to hold said Irishmen without trial for as long as the government fancied. Ho hum.

[Broadsword***]

I tend to lean toward the 'shouldn't have been there doing that' tendency. But, without knowing all the facts, it's difficult to be too judgmental.

Incidentally, speaking of Dutch plane spotters, does anyone remember the bogus Dutch air force 'Colonel' whom the Scottish Officer took on a tour of RAF Leuchars?

I'm sure the photos must still be out there somewhere ('Col' De Groot inspects a Phantom, while our venerable future VCDS looks on). Doubtless TB has had any evidence of this rather embarrassing incident erased from the record (well almost ;) )