NetJets Transportes Aereos Pilots Union

[shujaa]

Unlike the NetJets US- NetJets Transportes Aéreos Pilots have no collective bargaining agreement.

Click here for the NetJets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots site

WELCOME TO NJASAP (http://www.njasap.com/)

Click here for the Master Collective Bargaining Agreement

2007 CBA Resource Center (http://www.njasap.com/library/2007cba/cba_index2007.html)


NetJets Europe - All aircraft offered by NetJets Europe (http://www.netjetseurope.com/default.asp) are operated, maintained, and crewed by NetJets Transportes Aéreos, SA, an EU Carrier. Operations center located in Lisbon, Portugal.

[south coast]

Hi...

I am not so good at reading between the lines and would like an explanation to your post(s).

Are you asking or suggesting that NJE pilots should join this group, do they want us, what can they do for us, will NJE recognise it as official representation should we get a large number of NJE crew joining.

I think you need to explain exactly what is on offer, your posts on JB's are just as abrupt and confusing.

Make it simple and break it down for us simpletons.

Thanks.

[Flintstone]

If you're seriously thinking of having another crack at a union you might want to get a wriggle on. NJA and NJI have all had cuts imposed, I think (hope I'm wrong) it won't be long before it happens this side of the pond.

Just be careful who you let on the secret union panel this time eh? ;)

[EatMyShorts!]

Just be careful who you let on the secret union panel this time eh?No worries, this time we'll keep you out of it! *running* :E

[Hankers]

Thats not going to happen. I would like it to happen, but it won't! So lets just save our time and move on to another topic.

[south coast]

Such worthwhile words Hankers, I wish all posts were of such value.

[Flintstone]

EMS.

In the words of the song, it wasn't me. You're still making good use of my particular contribution though I think.

South Coast/Hankers. Giving in so easily? Assuming shujaa isn't a company plant why aren't you guys more receptive? They just might be what you need in the coming months.

[EatMyShorts!]

Hi Flinti! Did you take my previous posting serious? ;) We all know that it was not you, don't worry!

[south coast]

Flintoffski, maybe you misunderstood my initial post.

What I meant was could the original poster please explain exactly what it was he is hinting at.

A union is exactly what is needed and therefore there is no need to be cryptic, otherwise people dont understand what is being offered, me for one from the original post.

As for Hankers, I have no idea why someone who agrees that such a movement is needed would dismiss it so easily, why not back it and try to help get it going.

All this and the posts on a similar site are all too vague, and that doesnt induce confidence in anyone to take it seriously.

[Damianik]

Just another REPA...Ryanair European Pilot Association....
what happened? nothing...
cause pilots are kept happy singolarly by the company, with promises and ad hoc actions...

D

[Flintstone]

EMS. Nah, I got you. Even a ficky like wot I am got the smiley :E

SC. I thought it sounded odd, apologies. Given the history of attempting to bring a union into NJE (particularly with reference to the person EMS hinted at) there must be a lot of people wondering if this is a genuine attempt or a company fishing exercise. Cryptic posts don't help I suppose.

Good luck with it.

[northern boy]

If there had been a union, then there would be 300 odd pilots now on the scrap heap instead of jobsharing or part time. Unions exist only to protect the jobs and privileges of the most senior pilots in a company, especially if they happen to be on the company council. I've seen it happen and have been a victim of union backscratching before. So no thanks. Its a nasty old world. Get used to it.

I cannot imagine the bottom 300 voting for and paying subscriptions to an organisation that would see them out of a job to protect those who have simply had the good fortune to join at the right time.

Now flame away. I don't care.

[Flintstone]

Having a union would have meant 300 outright lay-offs? Surely if the current deals are beneficial to the company they would still have implemented them? Or are you saying that the mere existence of a union would have incited forced redundancies? I know there have been some illogical, hot-headed decisions from Lisbon in the past but those days are over, aren't they?

I say this with no pleasure NB but I think before this is over you may well see people laid off anyway. NJA had it, so did NJI. Can't see NJE being spared as a special case. RS stood against lay-offs and with him gone standard business sense will be given free rein. Office bods are (logically) the obvious targets but over 40% of the crew still on home standby won't go unnoticed.

If a second round comes along there'll be more than a few people wishing there were a union. Bit late by then. Surely better to have one and not need it than the other way around?

[Hankers]

South Coast

Couple of reminders what you wrote

"As for Hankers, I have no idea why someone who agrees that such a movement is needed would dismiss it so easily, why not back it and try to help get it going."

And then in the same post

"All this and the posts on a similar site are all too vague, and that doesnt induce confidence in anyone to take it seriously."

Which is my point exactly. Things too vague and it will just not get the backing because everyone knows what has happened before (i.e it died a death). Too quick to jump in criticising there SC and don't think you gave full consideration to the thought process behind my post!

If Netjets U.S (NJI, NJE, EJM) struggled and had problems gaining union recognition, how difficult and time consuming for the people involved do think it would be for us? There is a time and a place for everthing and it MY OPINION we are not in that place today.

[south coast]

Don't think so Hankers.

Big difference, but thanks for your comments.

[northern boy]

Flintstone, If there had been a union then the bottom 300 would have been unceremoniously turfed out because the union would have insisted on LIFO to protect the more senior from any hint of jobshare or part time. The company would have been more than glad to save the money. That is what unions do. I have been a victim of this more than once and in fact the second time seniority was no protection as a "deal" was done to protect the favored few.

As for further layoffs, I am sure they will happen. Those that "volunteered" are theoretically protected from redundancy for 4 years. The new broom will likely either tear up the agreement citing "urgency" or some such or at 4 years and 1 day, the p45's will be handed out. The business is showing no sign of going back to where it was and the whole operation will probably need to be downsized. Permanently.

For those that remain, reckon on 10+ years to command. Just like the airlines.

Cynical, pessimistic? certainly. Life does that to you.

I'm now frantically and so far unsuccsesfully looking for an airline job to see me through a few more years until I can pay the mortgage off and then thankfully get out of this rotten business.

Someone should tell the wanabees to save themselves a lot of pain and stay well away from aviation.:mad:

[Flintstone]

NB

Surely the union would have done what the membership asked them to and not simply wipe 300 names off the bottom of the list? They can't agree a plan of lay-offs, VRs or whatever without the agreement of the people who put them in place. I can understand if your previous experiences colour your thinking but I think it's a massive assumption.

Agree with your last line though. Anyone looking to get started in this industry wants their bumps feeling. Some of the posts in the Wannabee forum about financing training by hocking the family home and them borrowing more to buy a type rating make me wince.



Edit. Where's this shujaa character disappeared to?

[northern boy]

Hello again Fred.

I take your point about the demands of the membership, but do the maths.

300 recent joiners, some of whom have left perfectly good jobs to join on what have turned out to be empty promises. They are desperate to avoid being canned at a time when jobs are few and far between and 12 year olds with 250 hours and big chequebooks are actually paying to take what positions are available and the companies are venal and stupid enough to let them.

800 more senior people with the exact same worries and families to feed. The 800 would almost certainly pressure the union to get rid of the 300 to protect their interests. I would.

800 outvotes 300 even if 100 abstain/forget/leave/retire or whatever.

I'm not blaming anyone for wanting a union. I was in BALPA for many years and when push came to shove after 9/11, I got screwed. So have a union by all means , just don't expect self sacrificing altruism from the members when it really matters. I was in another industry and another union before I started flying. Same deal, sold out. The union brass all walked away with management positions. If you want further proof of how you can be shafted, look no further than our esteemed government in the UK and what they did to all us working stiffs.

Flying can be a great job but it really is a rotten career unless you are very lucky and manage to be at the right place at the right time, every time.

Good luck to all genuine jobseekers. The rest of you, put those bloody chequebooks away and have some respect for the rest of us who depend on this business to live.

[Flintstone]

Yeah, I see your point. Maybe I have too much faith in my fellow man :(

Which is kind of surprising when I've seen how some of them treat people.

[His dudeness]

Leaving aside aviation for a moment, you honestly think you´d be in a better postion if there would not have been strong unions in key industries?

One surely can find bad examples and yes, there a union people I would not buy a car from. But the opposite is true also, I personally know a guy who did a lot of negotiating on behalf of the Cargolux pilots and this guy is a perfectly honest man and achieved alot (they have not been in the same position as NJE now is, I have to admit). Surely there is one honest guy who could be a spokesperson for the pilots in NetJets Europe ? Or are there just 'singlehanders' like you, Northern Boy?
'United we stand, divided we fall' is as true as it ever was.

BTW, I´m not in NJ.

[Flintstone]

Ouch.

Bit harsh HD. I don't think Northern Boy is so much a 'singlehander' as someone who has been mistreated, let down, stitched up or misled by someone who should have been there to fight his corner. Under those circumstances his cynicism is understandable.

[northern boy]

His dudeness,

Fraternal greetings comrade. Let me ask you a question.

You buy a dog. Dogs are nice and good company. This dog however gives you an enormous bite requiring hospital treatment. Being convinced that dogs are a good thing, you give Fido another chance. A month later, Fido bites the face off your six year old daughter and savages your wife.

What would you do? would you consign doggy to the big kennel in the sky or would you continue to believe he was a good idea? Would you furthermore describe anyone who doubts the wisdom of dog ownership as prejudiced?

I 'm not sure what you mean by "single hander" but I doubt it was meant as a compliment.

Unions are run by people, so are aviation companies and every other business on earth. People are scared, greedy, selfish and put their own interests above those of others every time and when questioned will lie or "confabulate" as the trendies have it, to make themselves look good.That is what makes us human and such sterling qualities have ensured our survival as a species through the ages. We are hard wired to be like this. Collective action is only ever undertaken when it benefits the individuals concerned. As soon as the goal is reached, we go back to being individuals again. This is the exact reason that Socialism, Communism and all the other "isms" don't work and have had to be enforced at the point of a gun before collapsing.

We are imperfect. That however is the way that we are. We can try and act in concert to improve things and occasionally it may work. When threatened however, we act to protect ourselves, our families and our interests and if that means p*****g all over our fellows then we do it and sleep soundly afterwards. For an example, look at the behavior of the police, social services and local authorities over the recent child abuse and bullying scandals in the UK. Their primary concern is to cover their fat behinds and convince themselves that they are wonderful

When I finally realised this, I stopped relying on the idea that others would fight to ensure I was treated fairly and started to rely on myself. I now suffer a lot less stress. If people don't like me, I shrug because I trust no one until I have reason and proof to do otherwise.

This industry runs on tiny profit margins compared to most businesses. As a result it is the first to suffer from any cold economic wind. If it was run by union activists rather than accountants, nothing would change. The activists would either become accountants or go broke. Those are the facts. We all chose to enter the business, even if some of us wish we hadn't and so should accept that yes, flying is seductive and can be great fun and gives us all a great self image (maybe less so now that we have all lost our senses over "green" issues) however it is a business where luck plays a huge part in a career and is the only one that I know of where experience counts for absolutely nothing and all that matters is the date you happened to join or your ability to pay. (See Ryanair, bmi and soon everyone else.) Unions in my experience fight tooth and nail to maintain the status quo.

I used to be wide eyed and innocent and thought the world was fair, right up until I started flying for a living.

Sadder and wiser now.

[spaniel]

Wise words Northern Chap!!

The question is "which would NJE pilots put their trust in more: the current management (who are, in the main, a known entity) or union representatives"??

Power corrupts - FACT! Be it management or unions. I don't know the answer, until now I've always thought a union wasn't needed, but maybe it is. As long as its not run by some of our more 'vocal' NJE exponents!!!:E

[northern boy]

Agreed Spaniel. One only has to look at the calibre of our politicians to realise that those who seek power are by definition the least suitable to hold it.

The only representatives I would even begin to trust are those who are dragged kicking and screaming into the position for a limited period and then released gratefully back into the wild. A bit like jury service. That goes for any position of power, union rep or government official. Anyone who campaigns to get into a position where they can f**k us all up should be automatically suspect and probably locked away for the protection of society at large.

Public service should be a solemn duty, not a career for greasy little sods who are unable or unwilling to find honest employment.

By the way Spaniel, I didn't have you in mind when I wrote my doggy analogy. Please don't be offended, I'm sure you never bit anyone.

[His dudeness]

'singelhander' as in in single hand crew, flying alone...(wasn´t meant to be offensive btw...)

Well, I don´t find your view to be of any help, but of course, its your opinion, and I honestly think unions have and will achieve more than all individuals together.
Just look at some non-unionized compnies and how they treat their employees.

I was unionized as an electrician in my former life and was actually an active member.

Unions - as much as political parties - need input from their members, otherwise they might become tools for people with hidden agendas. I don´t think there could possibly be the ideal union, in selected cases there will be sufferers. Every member wants his interest put in front. Thats human.

But all in all, its betterto have a union than not.

What if actually NJE did not come up with their progressive solution they now have? If they just would have fired 300 guys/gals? Then a union would possibly been a good thing to have.

[postman23]

Not sure what the whole dog argument is about, if your bitch bites the head off of your kid, it seems to me that you lack the skills in training the dog and should get a fish or something, a bird is good too.

Having said that, please allow me to correct you on the bit about the negative characteristics of the human mind being hardwired into the brain. The mind observes, stores, recalls and classifies the impulses it is subject to. Your outing on negativity shows rather accurate what your mind has been subject to and I am sorry to see that. Rest assured, it can be cured.

However, it is exactly this dog-eat-dog mentality that you put on display, that feeds the negative. Certainly a shift in culture is present when it comes to personnel politics but not because it is hardwired into the brain. The sole reason for it is greed, an emotion which feeds of the general sense of dissatisfaction and is formalised under the general header of globalism. I leave it to the floor whether this capitalistic invention is a success or not.

With respect to the so-called failure of socialism and communism, please bear in mind that you are now interchanging political and economical systems without distinction. Along those lines though, capitalism is the only one of these three systems that has it's errors "hard-wired" into the system. If you have difficulty following me because your troubled mind cannot cope with reality, take a brief pause and examine my words by looking into the past, as far back as October 29th, 1929.

Back to the union topic: union means joining, joining is done through mutual understanding, something not reflected in your post. A labour union, to be more specific tries to achieve improvements in working conditions. Traditionally this is done by experts in the industry with profound knowledge of the branch it represents. The rip-off mentality that you mention is one that is, again, fed by greed. Much like the stockholder, we as pilots whine about the amount of dough in our pockets at every possible occasion. In that respect we and the shareholders have more in common than appears at first glance. The only way to make actual progress starts with a "U" and ends with "niting", applied to both sides of the company. The second step as I am sure you have guessed by now is to rid the greed.

Your frustration about a political economical event, initiated in the head of the capitalistic world some eight years ago has left you a poor man. :hmm:

Wish you well :ok:

[Cabral]

Well, quite apart from the pilots, what about the 105 sacked today???:\
Not only was the market price thrashed per flight hour, now more people out of work!