Bagdhad FIC

[HakunaMatata]

Gentlemen. Last night I was transiting Bagdhad FIR. The coms were diabolical to say the least. Just before being transferred to Ankara from Bagdhad 129.1 coms got a whole better when a yank voice suddenly came on the air and repeatedly told an Emirats flight to head 190 as he was about to enter Iran airspace. It transpired in the subsequent conversation between pilot and controller that the Emirats guy had been cleared direct ILMAP but had gone direct to some similar named place in Iran. Can you imagine those fingers tightening on the triggers remembering Viscence. (probably not spelled correctlly). He was obviously getting very close to Iran as a further instruction told him to head 200.

It appeared to me that after the very poor coms experienced with Bagdhad and the sudden intervention of the yank that although we are speaking to Bagdhad we are actually being controlled by Ali centre in Qatar. Anyone got any info on this.

Meanwhile be careful where the hell you are cleared to.

[TopBunk]

Having transited the Bagdhad FIR quite frequently, and whilst nowadays it is quite frequent to get 'direct' routings, I find it unfathomable that you would action a 'direct to' to somewhere (a) not on your flight plan and (b) in a different FIR/country and (c) without questioning the clearance (even more so from a 'local' operator).:eek::=

I didn't know that Ali were Qatar-based.

[HakunaMatata]

My sentiments entirely. Ali center I believe is the US command centre in Qatar. I stand to be corrected. As I said any info would be appreciated relevant to my inial post.

[oceancrosser]

I do not really understand the fuzz. But on a sideline EK and other airlines fly over Iran everyday, and they are actually very professional and helpful.
Maybe not many fly from Iraqi airspace into Iranian airspace, but from every other direction it is not a problem.

[TopBunk]

OC

I agree, the ATS provided by Iran are very good and courteous, I have overflown on numerous occasions, be it Tehran, Tabriz or Mashhad

However, it is not that that is at question, but the acceptance (apparently without query) of a clearance into another, unfiled FIR in an area on heightened tensions and Scatana rules.

[mr ripley]

Ali I believe is based at Ali Air Base in Iraq which used to be Tallil Air Base.

[Easy Street]

Last time I flew over Iraq (over a year ago) Ali were based at Tallil.

Command of the mil air ops was in Qatar, control was all in Iraq.

Easy Street

PS beaten to it by Mr Ripley!

[Wiley]

It's been a while since I flew that route, so I've forgotten the actual waypoint names, but there are two waypoints that are on the same route, one in Turkey and the other in Iraq, which are so similar sounding that it's not at all unusual for people to read back the wrong one and for ATC to miss the error. (I've heard this happen twice myself.)

I brought this up with an American controller during a quiet period enroute and he told me they'd been complaining about it for four years and could not get the problem sorted. Can't recall whether the wrong 'direct to' with these waypoints would involve an incursion into Iranian airspace, however, if EK sticks to its recent form, there could well be two DCMs awarded with immediate effect to the crew involved.

[TopSwiss 737]

It's been a while since I flew that route, so I've forgotten the actual waypoint names, but there are two waypoints that are on the same route, one in Turkey and the other in Iraq, which are so similar sounding that it's not at all unusual for people to read back the wrong one and for ATC to miss the error. (I've heard this happen twice myself.)


Wiley, I guess you are referring to the waypoints KABAN (Ankara/Baghdad FIR boundary) and KEBAN (well inside the Ankara FIR)... Heard this confusion happen several times as well...

The last couple of times, coming from Ankara airspace into Baghdad it took quite a while before we got contact with Baghdad Centre on 129.1... Yesterday we were thundering Southbound for a good 10 minutes before we were able to establish 2 way communications. I seem to remember comms up in the North used to be a lot better.

[startvalveopen]

[Last time I flew over Iraq (over a year ago) Ali were based at Tallil.

Command of the mil air ops was in Qatar, control was all in Iraq.

Easy Street

PS beaten to it by Mr Ripley!]



Ali center is based at Ali Base aka Talil.

[threemiles]

ILMAP N31* 21.6', E046* 57.0'
ILAM (ILM) VORDME N33* 34.8', E046* 24.8' (about 120 km East of Baghdad)

[White Knight]

You won't get comms on 129.1 until well after Kaban southbound - I'd say 30NM past at FL410.... But indeed, why route direct somewhere that's not on your flightplan without asking for confirmation?

[FirstStep]

Having flown over Iran many times, I too found them very well spoken and always with good comms. Although being cleared to a point not normally cleared too often calls for clarification worldwide, here you have another facet. You have a country that has sanctions imposed on it for alleged "attempting to build the bomb", and a country that has recently been accused of having supersecret underground facilities to accomplish that means. Can anyone think of a similiar scenario in the past where a country doesn't wish for an "airliner" to overfly what might be a "restricted" area?. This country has been attacked before( by air ) and lost great face. I doubt you would have the luxury of being intercepted ( few acft available to do so ), so I would have to think their AirDefence would use something a bit faster to "eliminate" any percieved threat. I know all this is pure conjecture, but I would stick to established Airways especially when comming from a US controlled region.
Fly safe.

[MTOW]

I've never been able to get comms with Baghdad until 40 or so miles after the FIR boundary southbound (unless some kind soul does a relay for me, which is often the case).

I've also heard crews getting confused with the KABAN/KEBAN waypoints. (Can't believe that hasn't been sorted by now. It ain't rocket science to drop/amend one of a pair of obviously confusing waypoint names on the same *** route.)

[Desperate]

Fly into Tehran (Imam Khomeini) and nightstop on a regular basis.

Professional ATC with well spoken English. Modern, well equipped airport and spotlessly clean. As for the people: courteous, helpful, friendly (as far as the language difference permits) and walking around Tehran I sense no threat whatsoever.
I have no doubt they'd deal with a straying airliner in the proper manner - albeit with a very quick interception as you'd be talking (or not) to the military defence radar 10 mins before the border.

I appreciate this won't placate the more bellicose pprune contributors, but just my 2p worth as I see it.

[777AV8R]

I flown numerous times through Iran and Baghdad airspace.

From Kaban southbound, its true that one won't be able to talk to
Baghdad for about 10 minutes. The route is rather saturated and it is
always easy to find someone up ahead or at a higher altitude to affect a
relay.

Iran, I've found to be very courteous and their language is very good. Air Defense Radar are specific in what they want and easy to deal with, as is Tehran radar.
Its sad that politics get in the way with everyone's life and we have to concern
ourselves about all of this.

Safe flight!

[White Knight]

And John R your point is??? There are 2300 of us - not all of us fly direct to somewhere that's not on the flightplan:p

[moondriver]

After being based in Baghdad on contract to Iraqi Airways, and flying extensively all spring of this year throughout Iraq, Iran, Syria, KSA, etc., I can tell you that Iraqi Airspace is a crapshoot-if you get an Iraqi controller the best you might get from him is "stand by." If you get a civilian American controller it is usually a civilian controller who (he or she) couldn't make it in the U.S. They are horrible. Right down there with the Iraqi's they are training. That's probably why the Iraqis are having trouble. LOL.

Having said that, the two best things that can happen is that the supervisor takes over, which happens about 50% of the time. They are very good. And the other is that you get handed off to Balat or Ali (which I think is also Talil) military control. They are extremely efficient and competent.

Flying to and from Tehran and Mashad is wonderful. As one person put it, the controllers are competent, friendly, and have very good English. When you get there the Iranians are warm, friendly, completely accommodating, and turn the airplane in very short order. The food catered from Iran Air is also excellent. We were intercepted once which was a big red blob appearing from nowhere -800' and confusing the hell out of the the TCAS and resulting in an instantaneous climb on our part all the way to 410, with it keeping a perfect -800' the whole way until it broke off. But training is training, and you are intercepted in Europe as well, so we just wished they had said something beforehand, and the controller was not even informed beforehand and was apologetic.

FYI, all that comes from Qatar is the Iraqi squawk, which is the most critical item of the flight. Without changing to your Iraqi squawk you WILL be intercepted, and it WILL NOT be training. The Americans, and I am one myself, are the ones you need to be the most afraid of.

[Thridle Op Des]

The KEBAN/KABAN issue has been resolved for over a month. All we need now is RVSM to help prevent the problem of two aircraft on reciprocal tracks being at the same level!

TOD

[Paradise Lost]

..............and that Thridle O.D is precisely why EVERYONE should be flying offsets! Amazing how many don't though.....

[vianostra]

Having flown extensively into Iraqi airspace (Baghdad, Basrah, Erbil, Sulaimanyah) and through (enroute) Iranian airspace over the last 2 years, the differences are interesting.

Iraqi ATC comms are unreliabe ( at the border and low level ) although improving, Iranian ATC comms generally have excellent enroute coverage.

Someone mentioned "politics"? Yes, the Iranian ATC do have the distinction of closing and opening airspace occasionally to enroute civil traffic to/from Afghanistan without notice or without any attempt to publish an associated notam. When rejected at the boundary, the silence (English) is deafening from ATC when you repeatedly request the related notam or try to quote the overflight permission.

[VinRouge]

Anyone else been getting RVSM levels in Iraq? Been flying there since the early days, you have to have your wits about you. I actually find Ankara are just as bad at times. You would think they would stick up another couple of transmitters about the place wouldnt you?

I agree with the comments on offsets, something I use regularly whilst flying around Afghainistan as well (lower airspace below 290).

[pedras]

Your report is very good, mainly your last statement.
I flew myself for 3 years (2003/2006) to 7 destinations within Iraq, including Balad, not Balat, over Iran, to 3 destinations in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan (Khanabad), all american operated air bases, and for many
useful reasons I video taped most of the spiral approaches, I have around
40 hours of it.
The Iranian ATC was by far the most professional and polite, my only problem with them was when they asked me what was my cargo to Bagram or Kandahar (sic).
Anyway, everything improved with time.

[ArthurBorges]

my only problem with them was when they asked me what was my cargo to Bagram or Kandahar (sic).


What's the problem?

Assume they're as intelligent as you, connive and use the standard Soviet answer: "Agricultural machinery parts."