aircrew retention latest

[uncle peter]

this is from hansard

Aircrew Retention

Mr. Kevin Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the outcome of the comprehensive review of aircrew retention. [23809]

Mr. Ingram: The Ministry of Defence has conducted a Comprehensive Review of Aircrew Retention this summer. We sought to identify why we have a shortfall in this highly trained group of personnel and how that shortfall might best be addressed. A study team including representatives from the three Services, HM Treasury and external consultancy have reviewed aircrew requirements and have looked at employment patterns, career structures, training systems and remuneration as well as the recruitment and financial policies of the commercial sector.

The Working Group collated the views of over 1,000 aircrew (probably the largest such survey the armed forces has undertaken) as well as those of managers. They examined and identified why people leave service life, as well as the attraction of the commercial sector.

The main cause of the shortage of aircrew was a failure of the training system to deliver against challenging targets. That has already been addressed, but it will take time to deliver. We intend, therefore, further to improve the retention of our current aircrew.

The Working Group identified a series of issues impacting on retention. Many of the quality of life issues emerging from the Review of Aircrew Retention were already being tackled. For example, the very significant programmes introduced to spend an additional £1 billion over the next 10 years on modernising single living accommodation and to spend £650 million by November 2005 on upgrading married quarters. We recognise that accommodation problems spread beyond housing and action is needed to address sub-standard working and technical accommodation as well. Senior service officers have also set in hand work to address a number of key concerns raised by aircrew--for example on operational tempo, career management, frequency of moves, and more. The impact of resolving these concerns will also be of benefit to personnel beyond the aircrew community. Some of the issues raised by aircrew are misperceptions, and to address this better communication is being developed across the services.

There are some remuneration aspects arising from the review and, as is usual, we have made proposals to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB). The outcome will be reported to the House in due course--probably early February.

We are monitoring closely developments in the commercial sector. But, even if the pull to the private sector decreases as a result of a contraction in the civil sector, we still have a responsibility to deal with the natural factors which cause personnel to leave, and which are preventing us reaching aircrew manning balance.

sounds positive but I dont suppose many will be holding their breath.

[1.3VStall]

Uncle peter,

A a couple of points that hit me in this:

1. Why on earth would anyone need to employ outside consultants to find out why there is an aircrew retention problem? The reasons are blindingly obvious, even to those of us who left a few years ago. A couple of hours browsing the PPRuNE archives would give anyone with a modicum of common sense a good feel for the problem.

2. Who are the "managers" they consulted? Doesn't the Service have leaders and commanders any more - or are they now consigned to history in the era of "executives" and "agencies".

Had to laugh about the renewed efforts to improve communications though. What's the problem with these "managers" getting out of their "agencies" regularly and actually getting into crewrooms to have meaningful dialogue with the very people they want to retain? It's hardly bl**dy rocket science. Seem to remember saying the same thing about 20 years ago!

[JimNich]

The sentence that smacks me in the gob is "Some of the issues raised by aircrew are misperceptions."

Says it all really. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[The Gorilla]

Jimnich

Didn't you know that life in the RAF is all roses?

Well actually the bed of roses I am in is suffering from blackspot and full of s*&t..

Just shows you the arrogance of those involved in sorting out the problems. Soon no one will be left.

[Pete O'Heater]

Can't believe how bitter and twisted you guys are! I'm having a great time - loads of cash for doing my 'hobby', seeing the world, job security and loads of time off.
Stop knocking the RAF all the time and enjoy the opportunity! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[FJJP]

Ah! Pete, what it is to be a first tourist, single, with a flashy sports car and a pair of rose-tinted spectacles!

[jumpmaster]

Well said...nuff said

[Captain Kirk]

Stall - would merely listening to the vociferous (with time on their hands) on PPRuNe really potray the whole picture?

I do agree with your leader/manager sentiments but remember - he was reading a simple servant prepared statement to other Politicians - neither group will understand leadership but they feed on buzzwords - don't be so sensitive!

Not wishing to swim against the stream here but that statement is about as positive as it gets - something IS being done and a Minister has gone on record to confirm some of the measures. I , for one, am pleased that a comprehensive survey was taken from a broad spectrum and that the proposals take QoL issues seriously - money is not the only answer (though clearly a substantial part of it).

Do not get me wrong - I do not, as a rule, trust Politicians an inch but what more did you expect?

Only time will tell of course but I do think that this statement is reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Oh - and Pete O' - Get some time in!

[Cabe LeCutter]

Got to agree with the Captain, but I never trust politicians, and remember that most officers are political animals by the time they hit very senior rank. Somebody is at least publicly aknowledging that there is a problem, perhaps the powers will take it seriously.
I agree with the comment about stop bitching and have a good time, perhaps the people who are doing the bitching have too much time on their hands. What they need are more out of area detachments to keep them busy especially around Christmas time and in places where ther is no internet access; somewhere like Af******** sounds nice.
Oops sounding like a politician, must lie down.

Head down, look out for the flack

[jayteeto]

I've had lots of dealings recently with Innsworth and I wish to apologise to all of my friends, sorry friend, who think I have now gone mad, baaaaaahhhhhh!! But, I KNOW that their lordships are trying hard on this one, with the odd exception of course. I for one will be making my big decision on the feb pay announcement. If it is not good enough, then I will vote with my feet. No whinges or moans, no complaining, just nice simple facts. Give the senior officers credit on this one, some are speaking out publicly, ie risking careers. They actually care..........aaaahhhhhhhhhh!

[TURNBULL]

Sounds to me like to civvy pilot market has started to pick up already, a mate who lost his slot with Maersk has just got it back. I hope those how feel a retention package is no longer required are watching the market.

[AlphaBeater]

To all who may be interested there is a re-hash of the hansard extract available at:
<a href="http://centre.defence.mod.uk/DGCC_NewsPortal/stories/december01/aircrew.htm" target="_blank">http://centre.defence.mod.uk/DGCC_NewsPortal/stories/december01/aircrew.htm</a> for all who can get there.

[uncle peter]

feeling quite heartened by the fact that people are asking questions.

more from hansard

Aircrew Retention 9 Jan 2002

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list the series of issues affecting retention that the working party on Aircrew Retention has been examining. [25703]

Mr. Ingram: The main issues identified by the Aircrew Retention Review as to why aircrew leave the Services were:

(a) The pull of a buoyant external employment market (while current difficulties being experienced by the civil sector may result in a short-term reduction in the pull factor, long-term solutions will be needed.

(b) A push effect arising from a diminution in faith/belief in the influence of senior leadership (this phenomenon has also been detected by other nations' armed forces).

(c) A host of "quality of life" issues, including the level of operational tempo and some career-management issues.

(d) The push of a gratuity/pension being available should aircrew decide to leave in their late 30s.
Action to address some of these issues was already in hand (such as the creation of a Defence Leadership Centre); for others it will take longer to make an impact but, under the direction of the Defence Management Board, plans are being drawn up to address each of the issues raised by aircrew. In some cases the retention-negative factors are an integral part of life in the armed forces and, as an acknowledgement of this, Service pay is augmented by the "X" factor (currently 13 per cent.).

extract ends.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Pete O'Heater]

Dear FJJP and Captain Kirk....
Just read your comments re 'get some time in'; for your information I am on my 7th tour (5 fast jet and 2 QFI), don't assume that everyone on the forum is a disgruntled RAF pilot and that if favourable comments are made that they must be 'new boys in town'. I did my ATPL 4 years ago and then decided to stay on the basis of what some good mates told me about civil flying and my experiences with the CAA and civvy flight schools during licensing. I'm happy with my lot and probably (although not necessarily) have more experience than the pair of you, chill out and be pleased that some of us actually find the RAF rewarding! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[TheSeeFarShadow]

As a 'Future WSOp', are we going to be included in this? Or is it another case of Airmen (Aircrew) being treated like 5h1t between a rock and a hard place (and I don't mean RAF Regiment and HMP Kinloss).

Quality of life is everything, close HMP Kinloss so I can spend my flying pay in England!

I think I'm right in saying that the AEOp trade has a recruiting problem rather than a retention problem, I bet this doesn't come into the equation.

[Stan Bydike]

TheSeeFarShadow

Both the AFBLT and the Aircrew Retention Roadshow folk went to great length to emphasise that it is Aircrew not just Pilot Retention that needs looking at.

I suspect that with AEOps it is both recruiting and retention that is the problem. That is a gut feeling based on my observations

Regards

Stan

[TheSeeFarShadow]

From DofR&S: the RAF are now recruiting WSOs and WSOps instead of Navs and AEOps/Air Sig.

Last year OASC selected 34 out of planned 54 (of which 7 were serving airmen - apparently because they think Kinloss is the back of beyond - no 5h1t!)

They are going to advertise in FHM, GQ, Loaded magazines - hope it's as good as the RAF tv ad.

Seems we have a good chance!

[Charlie Luncher]

SFS

Ice Station Kilo is a big turn off for many recruits. A lot of AA recruits go loadie for the choice, many like the idea of Maritime but not the location. The highlands were not formed to keep people out!

I hear a former FAA base will have a bit of space soon keeping us close to the sea - cause that’s important these days.

I am sure the retention package designed by blue bloods for blue bloods (whom are unsure what a siggie smells like, let alone looks like) will address all our worries.

We cannot replace those that leave at the moment, increasing the pressure on the 3rds and 4ths pissing them off so they leave at their options - futures not bright.

Rant over where is the bar - a long white Russian is in order
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Hertz Van Rental]

As CL states AA recruitment is a major problem. The good news is that it has been recognised as such and has progressed to being a major issue. One day it may even be succesfully addressed. Personally I hope that the siggie career path will start to include a realistic chance of rotating through E3D/R1/ASTOR and that Scotland will no longer be seen as the only option. Cross pollination of ISTAR and all that. Sadly the ASACS bunch don't seem keen, nor do the Army and as for those entrenched at Waddo, can you see any of them volunteering to go north!

[Stan Bydike]

One exremely negative aspect of Kilo personnel moving south would be the inevitable impact on Standard of Living caused by the vast disparity in house prices between the North of Scotland and just about anywhere else in the UK.

It would be interesting to compare the percentage of Houseowners at Kinloss and Lossie to other places such as Lyneham, Waddington etc.

The concept of the interest free loan of your gratuity (seemed very popular this time last year) would have done much to help sort out home ownership - be it used to buy or to invest for later use.

In effect - at the 38/16 - 22 points, its your money lying dormant, why can't you use it.

Time will tell

Stan

[BEagle]

Good point about house prices darn saarf. I've just seen a 2-bed semi in Witney advertised in the local rag for £124995....and new 4-bed houses are about £250K+..

Presumably you could buy most of Forres for that amount of dosh?

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Charlie Luncher]

Gents

I must correct a misconception about house prices in and around Ice stations Kilo and Lima.

The frugal and astute Jockaneese take every opportunity to exploit the occupying forces and have taken advantage of the poor state of the quarters north of the artic circle.

There has been an explosion of house building in recent years as land was cheap, houses are not. Whilst not as expensive as some of the finer areas of Oxford or Hants, it is more expensive than most other congregations of Aircrew Gods.

Not forgetting that only your colleagues may buy it off you, if you complete a tunnel, as the local industry has all but vanished except the service sector providing for the Chaps/esses.

But the former FAA base sounds good to me!

Just a little foresight is required go on
:)

[Stan Bydike]

Charlie

I am afraid I must disagree. You can buy just about anything up here for £100000. Older properties in particular are cheap.

A lot of the new build houses have silly prices but we quickly find that these prices are unsustainable in the "second hand" market.

Take Drumduan Park in Forres. 10 years ago about 45 grand - today about 55 grand.

House building up here has got out of control; planning permission has just been requested for another 175 on the west side of the Grantown Road by the Knockomie. Along with the 3 developments on the East side.

regards

Edited so the price was 100k not 1 million!!

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Stan Bydike ]</p>

[Hertz Van Rental]

&gt;"House building up here has got out of control; planning permission has just been requested for another 175 on the west side of the Grantown Road by the Knockomie. Along with the 3 developments on the East side."

Blimey I'll bet Gav's not happy. Especially as they would not give him permission to build a house for his family in his own grounds!

[JoBag]

HVR

Obviously keeing you up late at the font of knowledge. Bike still OK? , No tickets I hope?

Gav will indeed be less than impressed; although there is still some green field between the hotel and the new development and the new stuff is actually on the other side of the road.!!

Still, £83k for a 4 bed house can't be too bad!! Pity the only people who can afford them are RAF. Yet another alternate married patch....

Guess this isn't anything to do with retention though so best I go before I get a psting like the Admin Gargoyle!

JB

[TimC]

TheSeeFarShadow

So I must have been total cack to have managed to fail selection last year <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?!? I only applied for AEOp, and got told to **** off. Will apply again this year.

Mind if I have your email address? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Hertz Van Rental]

JB

The bike's rosy ta very much, and I have even managed to avoid the long arm of the law...so far <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> But you are right this has gone way OT.

[PoorPongo]

I'll bring it back on topic!

Heard a rumour from an excellent source whose info I absolutely believe located somewhere in the Main Building.

Announcement due around Jan 29th (or at least first release to star level with public soon after). Words used 'a bloody good deal', 'better than I can believe'.

Wouldn't reveal more for fear of upsetting applecart (quite rightly) but I reckon a five year plan similar to the SHAR boys is in line for a fair few bods. Probably targeted at the 'just got their pension and could go' merchants and also the 'approaching my early thrities so the prospect of a pension to pull me through is too far away' group.

Maybe some kind of tax free loan for the value of the lump sum you could have if you took your pension to be repayed on departure?

Anyway I'm told no changes since 11 Sep and the whole thing has been signed, sealed and delivered including agreement by the treasury.

So I figure we should keep the whinging on hold until we find out. You never know we may actually be on to a good thing.

And if the package is pretty good then well done and thanks to all those members of the staff, including many senior bods, for banging the table on this one...

Fingers crossed in hopeful anticipation.

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: PoorPongo ]

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: PoorPongo ]</p>

[Charlie Luncher]

PP

Come clean - you are a staff 'o' laying down some spin.

But then you did have to edit your spelling so I believe you are a pongo.. . :)

[Sangiovese]

Charlie Luncher, PoorPongo may actually be correct. A source from PMA told me last August that the retention package was excellent. Quite what he implied I don't know, and I didn't question it. The concern was that it would be dismissed by the treasury, after all the hard work that had been done. If it hasn't been dismissed, then come mid Feb it should be released with the AFPRB recommendations.

On another note I see teachers received 3.5% (about the same as nurses I think). So we'll get 3.5% too I guess. Not bad in the current financial climate, until Gordon throws more tax/NI at us!

[bootscooter]

Can anyone confirm(ish) that this "excellent package" is for all Aircrew, and not just for pilots?? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Adastral]

BootScooter

I would hope that their Lordships (and the Treasury) learned the lessons from the last, poorly aimed, retention package.

It is now admitted by PMA that the RAF is even more badly off for FJ Navigators than Pilots. So much so that Pilots are now being sent to Ground Tours to spring the Navs!!

However, we are still short of Pilots and, judging by some of the posts on this thread, other aircrew. So, if they have got their acts together, we should see an Aircrew Retention Package that goes across the board.

They can't make the same mistake twice... can they?!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[BEagle]

One hopes that this will be a successful retention incentive - I read that RyanAir need a few more pilots. EIGHT HUNDRED, so they say, for the ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY new aeroplanes they've just ordered........

[Al Titude]

Wise words BEagle.....

[jiffni]

The rumour here is that the Army pilots will not be getting the package because the treasury rejected the full measures. The savings from dropping the Army chaps, will allow the treasury to phase (drip feed) the very generous range of retention items, in order that they get feedback as to their effectiveness, just in case they do not need to spend all of the projected money.

Only a rumour of course.

[PoorPongo]

While I can't tell you in any detail what the package is ('cos i really don't know) I can CATEGORICALLY tell you that it is tri-service and that the Army WILL be getting it. I know this because I asked that specific question of my source who, while unwilling to reveal any detail of what was coming, did say that it was across the services (and the implication was strongly that it was equivalence across all 3). There is actually a strong hint in the latest open letter on the subject from DAAvn which should have gone round for all to see. 'do not wish to create an internal market' hints pretty strongly that we're all on the same deal.

I think it might be worth waiting until we've seen the loot on offer before dripping too much(and then, of course, if it is a paltry sum doing a proper job!).

Cross your fingers.

PP

[Hertz Van Rental]

BEags

I heard a rumour that Ryan won't take ex-Britmil. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[sangiovese.]

Hertz Van Rental

Rubbish. M O'L takes the best on offer. Mil or civil. Doesn't want to waste cash on trg where it's not required. Just like any other market based organisation.

[Oggin Aviator]

PP

Does the package include the early/mid thirties pension trapped person who also may be just about to vote with his/her feet? Your previous rundown seemed to imply the sqn exec level (like the last fiasco) and the late first/early second tour level and not the third/fourth tour types which if true would really p*ss me off.

Anyone know the number for Australia House?

[RubiC Cube]

Have just been told that an announcement is expected on Monday or Tuesday next week. Don't know whats in it, but we shouldn't be disappointed.

[Adastral]

Interestingly, the RAF Liaison Team was at our Station last week and discussed the subject of Aircrew Retention.

They did not let on what measures would be taken but did intimate that it should be something reasonable and that the Top Brass are aware of apalling lack of communication and explanation last time round.

The Liaison Team did mention that the overall PVR rate had gone down to around 4%, as opposed to the 10% of the early to mid 90's. However, when we quizzed them about the percentage of those aircrew leaving at options they had to get into the books.

On examination it appears that in the 1990's about 30 to 35% of aircrew left at an option point. For the last four years the figure has run at 60 to 65%!

If those figures don't imply that they need to get it right this time, then nothing does. Those posters on PPRuNe who love the expression "you should vote with your feet" may be interested to know that most aircrew are!! We may not be PVRing in droves, but clearly the majority are not being tempted to remain in beyond option points.

I trust that these facts and figures, generated for the benefit of our Lords and Masters, have actually been noted by our Lords and Masters?

We'll see come the day of the announcement.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Suit]

BEagle,

As one who knows a fair bit about MOL recruitment, I don't think that their Airships need worry too much about the pull of Ryanair, fancy starting as a FO on less than you'd make as a bus driver?

Suit...........

[TqNrT4NgGreenlightCWP]

expect an announcement in the house on tuesday, with concurrent release/briefing to aircrew across the board....

[BEagle]

Ah, but my dear Suit - many mil mates would also have a wee pensionette to augment MoL's mediocre salaries........

And he'll have to compete with that nice Greek chap who looks rather (too much?) like Prince Andrew and who operates a fleet of orange 737s..... so he might have to settle for industry salaries eventually??

[Admin Guru]

I hope that whilst the service as a whole benefits from a reasonable in line with inflation annual pay increase this year, I also hope the airships come to their senses over aircrew retention.. .Despite the abuse I received for my last posting, and the purile responses I stand by my views.

Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment, and conditions such as living in tents don't justify whopping pay increases. This is a military service and all on dets must suffer hardships - even us adminers. Navy types have to hot bunk on shift work. We need to keep aircrew in the service, for sure, but why extend the budget when they aren't leaving in sufficient quantities anyway; and also this is an unproven method that may not work.

[BEagle]

My blunt chum - did you pass English Language at 'O' Level? Because both your spelling and grammar are well below the standard one should reasonably expect from a career scribbly!

[PlasticCabDriver]

I'm sorry all but I'm going to have to take the Admin Guano bait again.

Think about what you just said. "Aircrew are hardly leaving in droves at the moment.." No, not at the moment, but in rare example of common sense, their airships seem to be thinking ahead to the moment (not too far off IMHO) when the airlines say "actually it's not all that bad, now where can we get some new pilots from?" and are making some effort to keep their most highly and expensively trained personnel in the Service.

Pilots don't leave because they have to sleep in tents (and the Navy doesn't have a pilot retention problem at all does it?), pilots leave because they are spending 7/8/9 months of the year away, in the arse end of the world, knowing they have the full support (NOT) of w*nkers like you back home.

You are a tw@t, Sir, of the highest order.

[uncle peter]

admin guru

i have not laughed as much for a long time. your post is cracking.

i have 2 theories, the first is that you set out to deliberately bait aircrew as a kind of hobby; a hobby at which you excel. the second is that you are a very high ranking airship yourself, as you are displaying the lack of logic and shortsightedness which, if it hasnt already, will guarantee promotion.

i refer the ill -informed wannabe to the fact that ryanair has announced it will be requiring 800 pilots for its shiny new fleet. although that does not offset the flying jobs lost as a result of 11/9 it is a significant improvement. consequently the exodus will soon resume.

can you refer me to the specific doc which states those on dets "MUST suffer hardship". wot if there's a better and cheaper way to do it that ensures a decent standard of living? like hotac?

ive got 2 words to say about your attitude...

...5 h 1 t e

. .edited after referral to profanisaurus

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: uncle peter ]</p>

[JoBag]

AG

Some points that may help amend your attitude.

Aircrew are not leaving in their droves...?

Maybe the facts have escaped your attention, then again, given your vast experience of the service maybe you don't know where to look. I commend the (widely available)DASA stats sheet, showing the shortfalls in the flying branches, to your attention.

Secondly, if the Air Force Board think there is a retention problem, isn't it perhaps possible that they have better information than you? Perhaps a look at some of the recent output from PMA would tell you that sustainment of the flying branches requires retention of 60% of aircrew at option points. It would also tell you that actual retention at option points is 40% and that the training system cannot make up the difference.

All of the information is readily available on every station - perhaps you ought to read it before venting your vitriol.

JB

:) :) :)

[Alf Aworna]

AG why oh why do you hate aircrew so much? Going on from that, if you hate them so much why on earth did you join the RAF? Your last poisonous posting was so totally ignorant of the facts it made me laugh- please at least pretend you know what you're on about in future. Oh and if you really are in the RAF then it may interest you to know that the adminners around here think you're a total arse and would like it known that they're not all like you.

[bootscooter]

AG, please do us all a favour and p*ss off will you. Once again, you've defaced and devalued a ligitimate thread of interest to AIRCREW, on a military AIRCREW bulitin board.. . . .Are you really so insecure that you have to turn every topic into a forum on you?

Please, please leave us alone so we can discuss sensible issues, ask questions, and accept knowledge when offered, from informed, intellegent individuals.

Do other Ppruners agree that this fool should be treated with the contempt that he thoroughly deserves.....and ignore him?

To all other non aircrew contributers who often contribute valuble information and views, my rant is in no way aimed at you....

(edited for CRM!)

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Boot Scooter ]</p>

[OldBonaMate]

Maybe you should ignore AG and with a bit of luck he'll go away (some hope).

He really is only trying to wind things up - successfully it seems. Have you noticed that the last time he posted on his original thread was at some time during happy hour last week!

He just wants attention. Deny him the "Oxygen of Publicity" to quote a certain formidable lady of the last century.

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[vascodegama]

I think we all agree that Admin Guru (whatever the TW@T is) is way off the mark. I suggest that the X factor should be targetted. That way those who sit in their offices all the time get none of it and those who get dic*ked around by them get more!

[Adastral]

Interesting point. Last year the Liaison Board brought up the same issue about using the X Factor to Offset any bonuses paid to those spending time away. I am in favour of this to a certain extent; however, the X Factor includes other variables as well as time spent away (the high numbers of moves in a career, spouses having to give up employment, kids changing schools, etc etc).

Although this is a separate issue, I believe that all personnel who spend a lot of time detached away should get a descent allowance package - not just aircrew. Tac Comms Wg and the caterers are getting a real bashing at present. This, however, has nothing to do with the issue of Aircrew Retention.

AG would serve himself better if he actually read some of the posts before paining us all with his comments. Aircrew are not PVRing at the present - they are waiting until their options and leaving. As BEagle pointed out, the Ryan Air salary itself might not be up to much, but the addition of a pension helps enormously.

We hear a lot about the 'sacred cow' of 60 IPS to solve our problems in the training empire (In Productive Service, AG). What you also have to remember is that it might take 3 years and cost approximately £6 million to train a pilot (how much for an Admin Officer?), but how can you possibly put a price on 1000hrs+, 4-Ship Lead, QWI etc etc. These are the guys who are taking options and they cannot simply be replaced by an Ab Initio.

That, my unwise friend AG, is why the retention measures are required.

If you don't like working for aircrew then I am afraid that you have joined the wrong business.

It's never too late to learn though.

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Hertz Van Rental]

Ordinarily I'd advocate not feeding Trolls, but in AG's case as long as he can keep his ignorance so entertaining, I hope that he continues to vomit forth.

But I'm still suspicious that his views are so stereotyped. It is a bit like a Harrier mate coming on and saying that the rest of us are crap because we don't have nozzles. He is expressing cartoon-like views that no one in the air force with an emotional maturity greater than 15 actually holds. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Is this a wind up?

[Sven Sixtoo]

Hertz

Is the Pope . . .?

Do bears . . .?

Or have IOT made a horrible error?

Sven

[Big Tudor]

Does anybody else find it interesting how, according to the Liaison Team, PVR rates always seem to drop just before major retention packages are announced. "Why should we give you a big pay rise when not many are leaving"??? IMHO it is manipulation of figures to Whitehall's advantage.

[sangiovese.]

Does anybody know for sure that the package is for public release tomorrow? And if it is, can someone post it on here.

We're on det, and the chance of us getting accurate timely information is slim as ever! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[KD]

I second that . Being 7 hrs behind blighty sucks . Can someone post it on here ? (if it happens ? )

[PoorPongo]

The Aircrew Retention Package was released to the 'stars' as an advance notice earlier today.

The rest of us will find out at 1530 tomorrow in line with the AFPRB award details. The details are intended to be available on the net on the mod web sites from that moment.

All indications still appear positive.

Wait out...

[NoseGunner]

I'm so excited I'm nearly peeing my pants.

Oh wait, no, thats just the beer.

Personally I'm not holding my breath - anything will be a bonus.

[rotor tree]

We have a briefing at 1600 tomorrow - expect the details on here shortly afterwards!

[Not BVR]

Excellent. Wonder whether it will be good enough to stove off the Ryanair e-application that's pending?!

[EESDL]

EESDL

You really must learn to logout when you finish on this shared computer! :) :) :)

Regards, Boot Scooter

[Seak1ng]

I am REALLY going to be surprised if the bonus covers people with less than two wings.

AEOps will soon be over 100 people short out of 500. I don't think even the Navs can match that.

I have my eye on a nice spoty runaround which I am sure I will be able to pay cash for early in april. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> . .Or I may just be able to afford a can of 3 in 1 for the chain on my pushbike......... <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[TimC]

Hopefully after my next application the RAF will be short of one AEOp less. It's the only choice I'm going to put down this time :) .

Why is the RAF so short of AEOps anyway? I would have thought that lots of people want to be one, I certainly do! I suppose Kinloss is a very long way north though, I bet there were fewer retention problems in the kipper fleet when St Mawgan was operating them!

[KD]

Any news ?!?!? What website will it be on ?

[Seak1ng]

Just as I suspected.... Pilots and Navs come out with an extra £100,000 in two lump sum payments, half 5 years before pensionable age and half at pensionable age, both with a five year return of service. Officer rearcrew get two payments of £30,000 at the above points.. .Just goes to show that the AFPRB is run by Officers (Pilots) for Officers.. .The rest of us get 3.7%. Great.. .Just goes to show that the people at the top are getting even further from reality and the problems that are very soon going to get even worse.

[Seak1ng]

By the way - I have actually got a copy of the signal, so this is straight from the proverbial...

[FJJP]

2002 AFPRB report

<a href="http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/afprb2002.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/afprb2002.pdf</a>

[Megaton]

Seaking1:

From the horse's mouth:

[quote] Aircrew retention. We recommend the introduction of the following Financial Retention. .Incentives from 1 April 2002, each with a five-year return of service:. .• £30,000 at five years before the Immediate Pension Point payable to pilots,. .navigators, RN observers, Officer rearcrew and selected NCO pilots; and. .• £50,000 (for pilots, navigators and RN observers) and £30,000 (for Officer. .rearcrew and selected NCO pilots) at the Immediate Pension Point.

<hr></blockquote>

So it looks like GBP 30,000 and then GBP 50 000 (damn US keyboard, no GBP sign).

[Jeep]

The bloke i work with, and does the same job is going to get £50k because he is 4 years younger than me. He's a good egg, so will probably buy me a beer = excellent retention for the both of us.

[MajorMadMax]

Ham

Why don't you simply copy and paste the Pound sign??

i.e.

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

Jeez, even an American intel officer (Command PowerPoint Pilot) knows how to do that!

Dinner Friday night, the wives are putting the details together.

Cheers!

[Megaton]

[quote]

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

<hr></blockquote>

Doh!

[Seak1ng]

Was just about to correct myself about the 30,000 and 50,000 error... But was beaten to it.. .If any pilot thinks I have done him out of 20K please forgive me!

[PlasticCabDriver]

Can't read .pdf files so can't use the link.

Is it tax free or do I have to give £12000 straight back to the tax man?

[Oh I See]

Can I just highlight a couple of comments from this well rounded and obviously well considered report, and in doing so, prevent the usual dripping from bleating SNCO’s:

Armed Forces’. .Pay Review Body. .Thirty-First Report 2002. .Chairman: The Rt. Hon. Baroness Dean. .of Thornton-le-Fylde

. .“Finally, MOD told us that, while the remuneration package was not suitable to address shortages of RAF NCO aircrew, non-remuneration management action was being taken to address those shortfalls.”

“Firstly, the remuneration proposals do not apply to NCO aircrew who are in short supply. We have asked MOD to explain how its “non-financial management action” will address those shortages.”

[Seak1ng]

No mention of tax free, and I believe that if it follows the format of the last retention payout then you will indeed be giving a load back to the taxman.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Oh yes, the tax man will cream-off an insignificant 40%.

[Seak1ng]

Dear Oh I See,

!!!!Can I just highlight a couple of comments from this well rounded and obviously well considered report, and in doing so, prevent the usual dripping from bleating SNCO’s:!!!

Certainly the SNCO's I have spoken to were led to believe that this "well considered" report was to address the AIRCREW retention problem, and not just OFFICER AIRCREW.. .This is yet another slap in the face. And I for one, along with many of my colleagues have not had a sniff of this non-renumeration package that they seem to be implementing. Neither do I know of anyone interviewed by the board about pay and conditions.. .Again I wait with baited breath for a solution, even if it will be another year before we hear back.

[Longer Runways]

From the looks of things, those people who have passed their 33rd birthday before 1 Apr 02 get £22,000 (taxed obviously) for the 4 full years left to serve upto 38/16 - can anyone confirm this please ?

[cheapseat]

At least you still know what to call me!!

@rse

[BEagle]

At the meating I attended at the Secret Oxfordshire Airbase, the jolly nice chap who explained matters took great pains to explain that, whilst this particularannouncement of retention incentives covers specifically Officer Aircrew, another review is also being conducted concerning non-Officer Aircrew. The 2002 Pay Award is not specifically targetted at retention incentives for aircrew, fairly obviously, and there is a very high priority bring put on non-remunerative retention incentives (e.g. quality of life concerns) for everyone.

Personally, although I've little to gain from it, I think that it is an excellent device to encourage Officer aircrew retention - I'm sure that the non-Officer aircrew retention incentives will be equally well thought out

[cheapseat]

BEagle

So whilst cash is good for you we can have a day off eh?

Edited for modesty!

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: cheapseat ]</p>

[Suit]

BEagle,

Valid points about old MOL and his FO renumeration, especially where Stavros is concerned, I doubt if a salary war will break out among the low fare boys though.

FRI seems to be a fairly good deal, taxman should be especially pleased (I assume that the sums quoted are gross?.

Has it kept anyone in I wonder? Will it work in five years time when the situation might be just a little different?

Suit......

[Megaton]

Package sounds pretty good and should work for some but I wonder what it will do for morale amongst other branches and ground trades? Good to see flt lt and sqn ldr pay leaping away at 4.2% though!

[Ginger Beer]

Again this smax of an incentive for the boyz, devized by the boyz i.e. Pilots-n-Navs.. .The grown-ups have piled the non FJ world in with the rest of the so called targeted branches and included Officer GD AENG, AEO and ALM ? Where did they think that the other rearcrew officers were going to(NAV excluded)?? You have to be joking if you think that they had somewhere better to go, (generally speaking).

Not one of you can tell me why the "Aircrew" retention scheme, for all aircrew as it has been long publisised, failed to address a financial package (appropriate to us) to be implemented today. They could have saved themselves a few PVR's by advising us earlier that our scheme would be in 6 mths or so.

I personally feel betrayed and led along the garden path.

The presidence has now been set, professional aircrew, which is all that we were recruited to be and still are, is now to be paid as a salary without flying pay i.e. effectively flying pay is pensionable. This is what the professional NCO aircrew must ensure happens to us at our review. Not just a quick 10k or 15k bung, which we will have to give nearly half back to the treasury.

We need to address these concerns now, collectively as NCO Aircrew and not let them drag this out for long, as they are sure to try. We must have a date in the short term i.e. 6 mths for all to be revealed. Then we'll see if they can cope with a retention problem.

£45k as a train driver, on top of my pension. What do you think is going to happen?

Ginger Beer, only in dark-n-stormy's.

[Big Green Arrow]

Longer Runways

The way I read it is if you take the queen's FRI shilling/euro/Pfund, then you sign up for 5 yrs ROS....correct me if I am wrong!

[covec]

If we are not to get a re-munerative package, then the ONLY possible consideration for SNCO AEOps / WSOps is to move MR2P / MRA4 to St Mawgan.

42(TB)Sqn is not dead - just resting......

Hot oggies n warm Cornish Best again......

Seriously - the "powers that be" are "asking" for a hammering between 2004 to 2006 when most "coldwar" AEOps were recruited. Specifically Option time - 3 years to go and counting...

MRA4 has a far more serious problem than industry setbacks and project slippages - potential lack of SNCO rearcrew to man it!

[Longer Runways]

Big Green Arrow

I'm sure I saw a slide which had a reducing scale depending on how many years you have left to serve before 38/16. Anybody else see that slide ? Surely Beagle did not miss that one !?!?

TIA LR

[Specaircrew]

Had a look at the pdf file but it doesn't breakdown the details. Any chance of some info regarding sliding scales, specaircrew & pensions etc for a chap that's on leave.

[StopStart]

BGA. .The amount you recieve depends the length of time left before your 16/38 point: 5yrs = £30K, 4yrs = £22K, 3yrs = £14K, 2yrs = £5K, 1yr = £0. The idea being if you take the cash then a PVR before your 16/38 point will require repayment of some or all of the cash (pre-tax amount).. .The £50K figure is paid at your 16/38 point if you agree to sign for a further 5 years.

[Longer Runways]

Ooooops..........almost forgot.........

Admin Guru - today you have hopefully realised how much you are valued - what was your retention payment ????!?!?!?!

Try not to spend it all at once........

[cheapseat]

Probably needs Longer Runways

Easy Tiger

[EESDL]

StopStart seems to have summarized it nicely, what's the confusion about?

[Muff Coupling]

As far as the work of the AARWG is concerned their work is "complete". It will be interesting to see the findings of the non-remuneration measures for NCO rear crew types..I suspect they are already finalised, but held back until they collect the second part of FRI 2!! and the dust settles on the commissioned package.

[cyclic]

Will I receive anything with 18 months left before my 38/16 point? I'm hardly likely to PVR during that time.

[ORAC]

Out of interest (as someone long gone), hgow does this affect to FCs as rear crew in the E3D? I can see p****d off SNCO controllers if the officcers get it and they don't. I can also see either even more of a marked reluctance to going back to the ADGE and it getting very ugly to try and get on it!!

[Longer Runways]

Thanks StopStart ! Just what the doctor ordered !

LR

[StopStart]

Just to add to my last, taking LINKUP will be offset against any retention lump sum you may receive.

EESDL. .I hear you're having a ball down there? Just spoke to your comrade (Directional Consultant) and as a result I'm sending down a fresh supply of pins for you to stick in your eyes. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[YellowBelly]

Orac. .E-3D Fighter Controllers (officers/sncos) are not included within the aircrew retention package. At the end of the day, it is afterall a package to retain full-time "career" and "professional" (take your pick of the new categories)aircrew.Harsh but fair?

[Specaircrew]

Ah well, as I'm already 8 years past my 38/16 point I'll have to console myself with the increase in LSSA that'll I'll be due when I go on the 'luxury desert holiday behind a desk' that I've just been given 3 days notice of!!!!

[cheapseat]

YellowBelly

?

[Si Clik]

How do these staged payments work?. .Is it . .4-5 yrs - 30 k. .3-4 yrs - 22 k. .2-3 yrs etc etc

so only somone in their last 12 monts before 38/16 will get 0

[YellowBelly]

Cheapseat

... and your point was ??

[cheapseat]

Define "career" and "professional" aircrew.

[The Pilgrim]

Can I offer what I believe is constructive criticism, its ballocks. Glossy garbage that will take the administrators years to fathom.

Firstly try to work out if you really qualify and then if you do remember everything is staged(5 Years)and it's taxed, work it out after tax, on a daily basis and see what you truly are worth! and for a Tri-Service review it's not very Tri-Service, is it?

Pay rise is not so bad though.

[StopStart]

38/16 points of:

Apr 07 - Mar 08 = £30K. .Apr 06 - Mar 07 = £22K. .Apr 05 - Mar 06 = £14K. .Apr 04 - Mar 05 = £5K. .Apr 03 - Mar 04 = £0K

If you have PVR'd already and are lured back by this <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> then they are accepting recindments <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

My apologies to anyone if these dates are wrong - I checked them on the RAF powerpoint brief thingy just before I left the office so am fairly sure they're correct.

[YellowBelly]

Cheapseat:

Sorry - must have seemed obscure if you weren't at one of the briefs. With effect from 1 Apr 03, single list aircrew will be referred to as "Career Aircrew", and get basic pay + flying pay. Spec Aircrew will become known as "Professional Aircrew" and will get an enhanced pay but no flying pay (effectively making what was their flying pay pensionable).Hope that makes sense - we're all letting it sink in.

Anyone:

Have seen the AFPRB Report 2002 on the MOD site - has anyone seen official details of the entire aircrew retention package on the web? If so, request a link.

[Bosnia tour]

can anyone give a (sensible) answer to if/how this affects army snco pilots/aircraft commanders?? thanx

[StopStart]

Remember that the above lump sums are in effect being paid for you do the contract you signed up to in the first place. This time yesterday I was planning to stay in until 16/38. Today my plans haven't changed but I've been offered a wad of cash just to make sure.

Additionally, Spec Aircrew is changing to "PA" which I think stands for "Professional Aircrew". They will lose the additional pay of flying pay but their basic pay will then be bumped up to the original level which has implications in terms of increased pensions etc. . .I also got the impression that it was moving more towards the way the FAA do business in terms either of being an aviator full stop of taking the career path to senior rank glory. I'm not sure if the signing terms for Spec Aircrew, or PA, have changed but, frankly, if it gets me out of crap courses and secondary duties then I'll sign up tomorrow.

[cheapseat]

YellowBelly

Thanks, I got all worked up you know!!!!

[Ginger Beer]

Boz tour,

My understanding is that you AAC NCO types are the only non zob fellas to get anything out of this. I can't remember the exact figures but I think it is on a par with the O's.

It's your round and don't forget to bat for us too.

[Bosnia tour]

thanks ginger beer. how do u know this??

[Muff Coupling]

Agree Pilgrim,

Read the small print....carefully

There will not be many who actually qualify for the 80K over the 10 year spread.

Do not spend it too quickly! If your life / personal situation changes during the period and you have to go..it has to go back in 1 lump sum!!

AND it will be reviewed annually...like all investments, they can go DOWN!

Leave and return..can't claim same FRI! You have to wait for IPP for FRI2!!

If it took months to sort out FRI 1 & 2 last year...this one will require buckets of overtime by the Blunties!!

[Muff Coupling]

Bosnia,

Full briefing for all 3 services to-day..30 page briefing doc to boot!

Providing you meet your single service criteria (it appears AAC SNCO Pilots do!) it works out at 60K over a ten year ROS spread. Officers 80K for same ROS period.

Quids in for those that qual and wish to stay the distance. Oh and AFPRB.. Flying Pay up 3.7 percent across all rates from 01 Apr.

Good luck!

[Oggin Aviator]

Fleet Air Arm aviators will never rise up to high rank within the Navy unless they hold a Bridge Watchkeeping ticket which many are reluctant to do. . .Its funny really, all the amounts are the same, just termed a little different. Your 38/16 point is our (and yours presumably) IPP - Initial Pension Point, however it is really a 37/16 point as you have had to have served 16 years from age 21, therefore the earliest you can get it is on your 37th birthday, only if you joined age 20 and 354 days or under. Confused ?? You bet!. .We have been briefed on the change of career path as well. Stay as you are with a chance of promotion to semi high rank, keeping flying pay, or apply for Spec Aircrew (called something else but essentially the same), have promotion curtailed but get more basic pay with flying pay subsumed and hence now pensionable. Tricky choice methinks, as the RN Spec Aircrew will be at the beck and call to fill any gash appointment, especially as some of these will invariably be at Sea (which is to be avoided at all cost!!). Anyway we'll see .......... .Didnt see any mention of our aircrewmen, hopefully this will come out in a few months.

Just the rambling thoughts of a happier Naval Aviator.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Oggin Aviator ]</p>

[barneyrubble]

Guys,. . Not being able to attend any briefings(and aslo being totally selfish), would a SNCO Army aircraft commander with only 4 years left untill 22, quilify for anything other than pity?

[lurkposition]

Hmmmmmm. .Just over two years to do until the great LV.

Cant'join the new PA so will stay Spec Aircrew as a two and a half.(not Spec AC Flg Pay!)

My [heavily taxed] flying pay is not pensionable.

A chap retiring two years after me will gain up to £8000 a year more pension.

His last few years in the RAF will gain about £3000 PA more.

....I suppose one has to be proud to be so undervalued (until 2006 that is !)

Cheers......

[Hertz Van Rental]

Trying to work out what motivation there is for someone to accept Wg Cdr rank.

Wg Cdr: Little flying (if any), lots of stress, no stability for the family, lose your flying pay if you cannot get back to the front line (ie. you don't get a sqn, and how many do?)and if you do not make Gp Capt (probable if you don't get a sqn) then obviously you retire with a Wg Cdr pension. Oh yes, and you cannot transfer to PA.

Sqn Ldr: Go PA, lots of flying, lots of family stability, lots of fun, more money (in time) than a no-flying-pay Wg Cdr and guaranteed a Gp Capt pension.

We are asking people to gamble their families future financial security on the chance that they will get a sqn cdr tour and progress upwards. . .Why are we treating our career officers this way?

[Ali Barber]

Can someone post some details about this new Professional Aircrew? Why can Lurkposition not join it if he's already Spec Aircrew?

[PoorPongo]

Barney,

The same detail occurs for you as in Stopstarts posting earlier. ie if your pension date (22 done) falls between the dates shown then you will indeed be entitled to the amounts listed.

No question. AAC SNCO aircrew are included. Only difference is that in order to get the second payment(FRI2) then you need to either get commissioned or accepted for continuation/LSL(A) etc. Then you will be eligible for a further 30K bonus (officers get £50K) for a further 5 years. You are then likely become offical Spec Aircrew (or Professional Aircrew stream as they are calling it) and your whole salary including flying pay - and this is only for NCOs beyond pension point - will become pensionable.

I think it's actually a pretty good deal and I've heard that the Director had to put his head a fair way above the parapet to make sure our NCO pilots got it.

I got B...... all BTW!

PP

[cheapseat]

H V Rental

We need career officers? The SAR Force has literally moved 'up' by one rank (Flt Lt flight commanders now Sqn Ldr etc) for what. Identical kit to then, worst shortages and, more to the point, worst morale.

[lurkposition]

A great Catch XII

One needs 5 or more years of service left to swap over to PA.

It seems that Spec Ac will be retained and phased out as we fade out.

It's not a major big deal as I will not lose out on my expected pension - one must be prepared to put up with the transition phase but we all have the slightly verdigris taint to our eyes, somewhere !

Cheers,

[CSRO]

PP

We were told that AAC officers could also apply to PA but that numbers would be limited. Mainly QHIs who could be employed without career implications.

Also, glad to see someone else got B..... all.

Personally I am pleased for those that did and all in all think the AAC will keep more people as a result.

Hurrah for FRI, especially as SNCO pilots included. Most SNCOs in Wattisham accepted the 30/50k difference at IPP quite frankly when it was explained that it was based on pension rates and said that by IPP most AAC officers have shouldered much more aviation responsibility and it was fair enough.

Well done the board - just don't lower the rates and keep grandfather rates for a decent period. For the carrot to work you have to have to be able to see it all the time!

[barneyrubble]

CRSO,. . I am also @ Whatashame but on det at the mo, could you please post or email me the gen, as i said,i have only 4 years left. Do i qualify for approx 22k as explained by stopstart.

BR

[fenestronuk]

csro

I agree that the AAC will win in the end. Unfortuneately I bet there are no way near enough PA slots for regular officers.

Having said that I do not believe it will be the rosey answer that some of our young aac officers think it is. It may look good now but frustration will set in when all their muckers pass them in rank and responsibility. Also how many non-pilot realted posts are there for aac officers? not many, so loss of flying pay for cs officers will not be an issue if mcm manage it properly.

look before you leap. Also if you are right then how many reg officer qhis do we have at IPP. not many.

I got a little but thought it was a good result.

AGREE WITH CARROT COMMENT AND THAT GRANDFATER RIGHTS MUST APPLY FROM FRI 1 to 2.

[Bosnia tour]

same for me cheers! have 4.11 years left. .oops is the cat out of the bag??

[Flatfish]

Another excellent retention package ! Thankfully at least lots more people benefit. . .However what have our lordships gained in terms of retention ? Most people in their last five years to run to the 'holy grail' of pension are in the 'pension trap' and pretty unlikely to leave. Of a quick poll around my squadron, not a single person in this bracket was considering leaving anyway. However the 28-32 year olds who missed out are still biding their time and waiting for the airlines to pick up. . .Also be very aware that the FRI1 & 2 will be subject to market forces, i.e. they could go down rapidly. Hardly a basis for future individual financial planning but an understandable element of flexibility for the armed forces.

So in summary, lots of people stay who were staying anyway and at enormous financial cost to the treasury. No more bleating because there won't be any more money for a long, long time.

Having said that, good wishes to all who are now planning holidays and new cars, I'm only jealous !

[Ed Winchester]

Another stupid question, in the aims of self-interest....

Having read the complete AFPRB report, I see that the scheme is to run for an initial timespan of 5 years.

Does this mean that when I reach my '5 years to go' point sometime next year, I get the wonga? Or is this a one off for people that fall into the bracket now?

Either way, it sounds like a good deal for a lot of Os and AAC SNCO aircrew. I'd just like to know if I'm getting a piece of the pie!!!!!

[WhichWay?]

Many are trying to find the details, hopefully they will find these links useful.

For the Powerpoint Slides presentation <a href="http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/fri.ppt" target="_blank">http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/fri.ppt</a>, for the Q & A brief <a href="http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/arrqa.doc" target="_blank">http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/arrqa.doc</a>, for the Pay Review Pay Scales <a href="http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/afprbsig.htm" target="_blank">http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/afprbsig.htm</a> and for the Pay Review Board Report <a href="http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/ARMED.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.littleblueplanet.co.uk/ARMED.pdf</a>

Bang goes my ID!

Time to register again!!

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: WhichWay? ]</p>

[jayteeto]

I've just spent some time reading the documents and have come to the conclusion that if you elect to stay, you will get a reasonably good deal. If you want to leave you won't. Isn't that what a retention package is meant to do? Sadly, I have decided to leave as I wanted more, my choice, no complaints. Thanks innsworth for your efforts, you did a good job <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Kaa050]

My "exotic" location accounts for the time on this post!

BUT, I think they have done a good job this time!! Not because I will get a wad, I don't think I will! (At least not yet), But because they have obviously thought about it very hard, and at least made a valiant effort, in the face of adversity. Well done. And to those with the "Wanga"...mines a bloody pint!

However, and there's always a "However", what about the NCOs? I hope they are not forgotten for long, or they may become the next "Issue".

Sorry guys, probably your turn next, when you all start (continue)leaving in droves.

Oh, I almost forgot, : AG...you're (Probably) a pr#@k. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll be the first to apologise.

. .Kaa

[Ed Winchester]

WhichWay?

Thanks very much for the links - I found the answer to my question. Anyone who wants the full SP, check out WhichWay's Q&A link. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Ed Winchester ]</p>

[MAD Boom]

How on earth can they call it a retention package when as part of it involves allowing pilots to transfer to BA?. .Surely the idea is to keep people in rather than encourage them to defect to the dark(but higher paid)side!

[jayteeto]

Wait for the GAI, it doesn't say at which stage they will transfer across. If it is at the 44 point, the retention pack will have given them an extra 6 years before they lose the pilot to the airlines anyway. Also consider the briefing caveat, A LIMITED NUMBER of pilots will be given jobs with BA. Work out for yourself who that will be.................

[Ghostflyer]

Feel I shouldn't really reply to this cos I've been out for a couple of years now and enjoy having a life. I didn't leave the RAF because of pay; I left because I was working 12 hour days, spending 7 months of the year away from home (when I was on the squadron) and every now and then got sent away to some god forsaken place for 4 months of unaccompanied holiday.

When I was young it was great but as I got older and the kids came along I started to take the view that my life stopped the day I left on a det or op until I could get home. There is only so much p*ss to be drunk and bonhomie to be had. I would go away for 3 weeks , let alone 3 months, and the kids started to forget who I was.

I am now out, I live in a sunny place, I work about 14 days a month on average and when I have time off it is my time. I take the kids to school about 60% of the time, see the missus and play golf without feeling guilty about taking up valuable family time. The pressure is off me and the family. I hope I might live a little longer than would have been the case if I'd stayed in.

During my time in the RAF I was involved in retention issues to some degree, not at Innsworth but at MOD meetings. I can't remember the exact numbers but Innsworth reckoned they could solve the retention problem if they increased the return of service from something like age 31.7 to 33.6.

The USAF tried this, they gave pilots $20,000/year for 7 years to stay. The uptake was about 30% and most of the guys taking the bonus where going to stay anyway. The guys in the know looked at a United Captains salary at the end of their career, worst case about $300,000 and realised that for every year they stayed they were throwing away the chance to earn about about $230,000 extra/year. (The difference between their salary now and what they would get paid at the end.) In addition, they were blowing their chances of an investment portfolio (from a 401K)on retirement that even in 1996 added up to over $3,000,000.

The RAF have now offered (after tax) £18,000 at 33 and £30,000 at 38 for the best years of your life. It becomes harder to move when you are 43 than you might believe. A UK charter captain at the end of his career still makes a minimum of £30,000/year more than the average RAF officer

Current economic circumstances might make it hard to leave (we all know things will eventually pick up) and I respect the decision of anyone to stay in. One of my buddies has done just that.

All I would say to those of you have been waved the cash, take all factors into account. Think about your family, your way of life, the stress you get put under and the thanks you receive. This won't change the infrastructure of your base, it won't bring Eurofighter into service a minute earlier. £18k should pay for a nice new sofa and a down payment on a 2 bedroom flat in Sleaford. It won't take the pressure off and it won't make you live any longer or much happier.

I am fortunate, I have a job now that pays for the lifestyle I want. The longest I spend away from home is about 4 days and I get time off to enjoy living.

Sorry about that but when you near 40 you start to come up with old fart stuff from time to time.

Enjoy the money if you take it, but stop bitching, no one will care and it won't change anything. Otherwise, make a change, my experience says that, all things considered, having a life will be for the better.

Ghost <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Ghostflyer ]</p>

[Tourist]

I'm 28. Doesn't do sh@t for me. Just the same old ******s who were staying in anyway get some thank you cash. Pile of ars@!

[Min Decent Ht]

I'm lucky enough to actually qualify for this hand out (sorry to gloat). As opposed to last year's cunning plan to receive enough money for a second hand car provided you had brown hair, your birthday was on a Monday, your better half wasn't Welsh etc.... .I'm amazed, but won't start laughing until the cash is in my mit.. .However, I'd like to thank Ghostflyer for putting it all in perspective. His post should remind us all that the most important thing in life is to be happy. With the introduction of PA perhaps we can start telling the sqn boss to shove his 14 hr days where the sun don't shine and live a little- not feeling guilty about an occasional sports afternoon for instance (golf obviously, not anything sweaty). You've always got the fall back plan of reminding Wg Cdr bosses that you'll be getting a bigger pension than them.. .Perhaps not.. .Because of this retention scheme I'm staying in. If there is some quality of life and the kids continue to remember me I'll probably do an extra 5 years = I win enough cash for a house deposit, and the RAF win too. Flying airliners would have bored the **** out of me anyway :) .

[OldBonaMate]

Strange isn't it? Only 7 years ago we came to the end of a series of redundancies where those with more than 5 years left to serve were being paid more (in real terms) to leave than you guys are now being offered to stay.

Think of all the excellent new operational equipment you could have had if these examples of financial profligacy had not been necessary. Binnsworth has an awful lot answer for, methinks.

As our buddies in the lower 48 would say: What goes around, comes around.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Muff Coupling]

Smoke and Mirrors.

Sounded great in the House. Public Dept 2 HMIT making room for 40% of the dosh.

£13.17p a day (thats about 60 fags for those that do!) for 10 years for those who were pension trapped and had little intention to leave anyway.

The restrictive terms of service for at least one of the Services, will mean that very few will qualify for any of the packages.

The PA Spine will be of little use to DE Officers for the Army boys. I understand most of their de-facto Spec Aircrew are LE ( & NCOs). Likely, that most of those LE will not have the 5 yr ROS to get onto the PA Pension Spine. The requirement for DE Officers (Pilot) will be "digits on one hand", a couple of Instructors and ETPS (RTS) chaps.

Q..If PA is by "selection" and you are a Upper Yardie, LE or Spec Aircrew..if you do not get selected..will you be treated as a CS type chappy for career purposes..mmmmmmm

Good news for the Army NCO pilots that qualify though. FRI 2 might be difficult at 22 year though..they will need extension of some sought.

Strange..last year, voluntary extension of service was seen as a "we do not need to pay you the(FRI) you if you have elected to stay"..this year we give you 30K !!because you have no intention of leaving!!

How does that work then?

That all said the ARRWG did an alround good job, of course the Treasury boys then had a play.

Good post Ghost...in a nutshell as they say.

[Hoots]

I'm led to believe that the AEOp Non-Renumerative measures comprise of new recruiting measures. These, i'm told are adverts in flash magazines, an AEOp website, changing the name to WSOp, new platform opportunities(2 vacancies to ASTOR), recruiting posters etc. I'd like to know if this is true? When the Aircrew retention team visited i asked why there was no Airman Aircrew element on the team, the reply was that they would look after our intrests. Looks like they failed on that one,but i'm sure they will get promoted for a bl**dy good job. They got the master race what they wanted but all they have done is to divide the unique good working relationship we have with the Officer types. Well done MOD you've really screwed things up now. I have never seen so many pi**ed off Airmen Aircrew, as i have seen today, for a long time. I'm sure this is a good signal to pass onto anyone within the service who wants to remuster to Airman Aircrew (NOT). I also noted that the AFPRB were concerned about the MOD's proposals, should be good to see what they have to say for themselves. It also seems that the numbers have been fudged, they appear to be looking at the amout of AEOp's leaving the RAF, what about the many who change to the overmanned GD (AEO) or the Ops Support branch, they still leave the AEOp trade short of manning, but the figures, still don't give us a retention problem only a recruiting one. Don't they realise that some are so sick of the AEOp trade, but dont want to lose job security, that they take up the Ops support game. Wearing the blinkers is great when it comes to financial matters. And you can stuff your secondary duties. Be careful out there folks.

[Dogstar]

Have I got the wrong end of the stick???

The £30 000 hand-out to stay for 5 years is reduced to £18 000 by the tax man (fair enough we know we need to pay tax). Take off £10 000 LINKUP which has been recinded by this deal (even if I stay in beyond the 16/38 point I will be doing ATPLs). Result: £8000 net gain (a good second hand car). I understand that if you then fall ill and lose your flying cat you will be have to repay the original gross lump sum of £30 000 (which of course you will have already paid tax on).

If this is correct, then I feel that, what initially I believed to be a great deal (for the few who qualify!!) is in fact a classic case of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. It proves to be a bit of a stunt for the government to be able to have headlines slapped across the papers saying 'pilots given £30 000 package' when in fact few people qualify and in real terms we are not talking about a huge sum of money for a gamble that you will stay fit.

Will it still be possible to join the LINKUP scheme and not take the £30 000?

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: Dogstar ]</p>

[onthewayout]

Sounded really good for a second or two. 36 at the end of Mar 02, so absolutely nothing in the bank until I decide what to do at 38. Still if I had been born a little later in the year and received the £5000, with the £10000 for linkup, would I be owing them some money?

[Capt Widebody]

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Someone help me out here...

Maybe I have misread or simply missed some of the details, but I have a couple of little niggling doubts about this package, and one huge misgiving.

First, if the goalposts on the "5 years to 38 for £30k (£18k)" package can be moved every year to account for market forces, then anyone signing up to the deal will effectively be speculating on the future employment market. Are they saying that in a couple of years' time, if all things are looking good (five years into the crystal ball of manning level prediction), then the FRI will be reduced?

Example: 2005 - FRI reduced to £10k at age 33, as period 2005-2010 is looking fine for aircrew. Result: no-one bothers to sign up for their £6k after tax for 5 years' commitment.... The following year, PMA realise (god forbid) that their estimates weren't correct, and they increase the FRI to £50k. Anyone who was eligible in '05 for £10k, will now be eligible for £40, pro-rata.

Stand-by for the pendulum effect....

Second: How exactly is the PA system giong to induce spec-aircrew types to stay? Unless, again, I have missed the point (very likely, as I am currently living in a tent by a runway and flying my @rse off...), then the "retention incentive" is again offering less than the pension and gratuity at IPP? Unless the pay rate is vastly different (in which case, why the £50k bung for five years), then here is Flt Lt Stay vs First Officer pi$$ off to BA at their 38 pt/IPP:

Flt Lt Stay: Gives up his right to a pension on PVR from Spec Aircrew (PA), gets £50k for extra five years' contract, on new terms of employment. Effectively will never get a pension until retirement on accepting the PA terms, therefor is closing all the financially viable or reasonable doors between age 38 and retirement on careers outside of the RAF.

FO pi$$ off to BA: Receives gratuity (say, £25k minimum), plus annual pension (say, £12k). After the 5 years he would have signed on for as PA, he is £35k better off on payments from the RAF alone, not to mention the fact that he is probably earning a damn sight more with his new job. And all this, before the inverse x-factor and quality of life /stability factors have been taken into account.

I understand that the majority of the FRI was targeted at prventing people from leaving at their option points. This FRI may have done that with some success. But as far as I can see, the PA system will do nothing but push away those so-called "non-career" officers' who may have gone Spec Aircrew on the old system.

If I have missed a trick here, I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me, that is all.

My huge misgiving is our NCO aircrew being shafted yet again. Let's not beat about the bush, there are no complex questions or finer points to ponder here: It is sh*t!

Yes, I know that the recently announced packages are for retention, and have been targeted at the identified problem areas. But their application is nothing but short sightedness. Anything which is so divisive and demoralising after so many previously broken promises to the NCO cadre is only going to (sorry, already has, from what I have seen): a) destroy morale in the short to medium term, and b) precipitate the requirement for a FRI for NCO aircrew when they all start to leave in disgust.

Increasing pay for professional aircrew across the board may not have been the cheapest solution, but you really cannot afford to buy your metaphorical cheap shoes when your feet are already sore. You guys who conjured up this magic trick... think again, and fast.

[ttthompson]

Another disgusted member of the SNCO aircrew cadre. Retention is not a problem if you can replace those leaving with new blood. Unfortunately, this seems to have been lost on those creating policy. Short sightedness has been blind to the mass recruiting that took place in the early/mid 80's, leaving an awful lot of Airman Aircrew due 22 yr options by 2008. No retention problem now, but it really is the calm before the storm.

[Adastral]

Chaps

Lets not get too wrapped up in the "what if?'s". If the FRI had been as damp as squid as last year we would all be whinging like crazy. Whilst I admit that there are some searching questions to ask about the fine print, let's not lose sight of the fact that something positive has been done.

Sure, even if you are entitled, the tax man takes a chunk - that's life. At least the FRI are not loans that have to be repaid when you get your gratuity, which was one option considered. It may only be £32 after tax - but it's all yours!

The scheme was never designed to compete on an equitable basis with the civvie sector. Those, like Ghostflyer, who made a 'quality of life' choice will probably go anyway.

Those who are determined to pursue careers, will stay anyway. What they are targeting are those who are sitting on the fence. If nothing else these measures have shown that they are willing to try and keep us.

Tourist - I sympathise that you are not getting any dosh now but, be realistic. Where do they draw the line? 33, 28, 25, "you've just wiped your nose after leaving IOT, here's some dosh!!" ?? Be serious!

The aim of the package is to draw those people through from 32/33 who have considered taking their options and going elsewhere. You will hopefully benefit in a few years time (barring the pendulum effect!)

The second FRI is to inspire others to remain at the pension point. These are targeted for the specific reason of retaining experienced aircrew - not simply to reward them.

Capt Widebody - I am not sure that I understand completely the fine detail about the pension for Professional Aviators who PVR. I believe that you have to do a minimum of 5 years under the new scheme to benefit from the new pension rates. (Same as if you take the money). However, I don't think it could be possible after that to deny you a pension on new rates if you PVR. Aren't Spec Aircrew on a similar scheme now, in that you can only leave on a year's PVR notice?

On the positve side, as PA, you are removing the whole issue of pensionable flying pay. A spec aircew mate who crosses over will be on the same wage as he is now - only on the new scheme the entire amount would be pensionable on retirement.

Further, he doesn't have to mark time, as in the Pay 2000 scheme, and goes up an increment each year. If he stays into 55 he will be on the equivalent of a Gp Capt's pension! Doesn't sound too bad to me if that's what you want. Most Spec Aircrew are in for the duration and chose that avenue because they want to stay flying, not have a huge amount of responsibility and have reasonable stability.

It's the career Wg Cdr's who will need to look carefully at their position. If they are not going to get Gp Capt their Flying pay still counts for squat for their pensions! (And nobody please mention AVCs!!)

Rambled on a bit longer than I anticipated - sorry! The bottom line is -

These measures , I feel, have been fairly well targeted (Sorry - not including the Airman Aircrew!). At least an attempt has been made to keep experienced aviators in the Service - for most of us, that is half the battle!

[By the way, I missed out on the big payout by a few weeks - life's a bitch!] <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[How Low...?]

Just want to some sums here and answer a hypohetical question:

take the non-Professional Pilot lot (Staff Line)

recieve 18K now for 5 yrs & then 30K for a further 5 yrs = £48 K split between the 120 months = a net gain of 400 per month (£4800 per year).

Now take into account that you do 6 yrs out of flying related post & lose your flying pay at about £6600 per year (£29 per day) (all sums post tax at 40%); indicates to me that the retention intiative is leaving us staff wollers potentially out of pocket by £1800 per year net.

Going stay & become poorer or leave to command your own destiny?

just a thought - put me straight if I am completely barking up the wrong tree.

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: How Low...? ]</p>

[DP Harvey]

"The scheme will run for 5 yrs"

The question was asked earlier in this string by one who shall remain nameless, "If I reach the 5 yr to go point next year does that mean I get the cash?"

Yes, you do...and what a waste of money that will be. I despair of some you lot, I really do.

[CSRO]

HL

Staff Wallers (as you put it) will not be out of pocket. How many non-flying related staff jobs do you know? Not many. Anyway Innsworth will ensure you are never more than 3 years away from a flying related post. Also read the small print - exceptions can be made, like excluding those at staff college and every other "this is in the interests of the service" post. Trust me, those in the career stream will not fall foul and those on the pa scheme are 100% eligible for flying related staff jobs. Look before you leap into pa is my suggestion.

Personally I would rather give it a go and do something useful like 'be in charge'.

How annoyed will you be when studes you train start becoming your Stn Cdr? Think about it. They will not shaft the career stream. PA looks good, but no-one has seen details yet, and you could get very frustrated very quickly.

I suggest you go pa - more decent jobs for me.

[Ed Winchester]

DP Harvey,

Devastated to read that you think I am unworthy of the FRI. In my defence, my opening line did start "Another stupid question....".

Still, at least you didn't come across as a pompous @rse. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[sandmanxman]

Yet another stupid question:

If at 38 I take 50k taxed - go PA for my 5 years return of service - does that mean I can leave at 43 with a increased tax free lump sum and an increased pension based on new PA rates? - or am I signed up till 55 and would have to PVR in order to realise a pension and lump sum?

For what its worth I reckon it's a decent stab at solving the problems, except for the short sighted attitude towards the NCO guys - the PA deal does sound interesting to a grey haired old git like me who has been whinging for years about ******s getting promoted and getting bigger pensions, but I wait for the detail.

]

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: greyhairedweazel ]</p>

[AirScream]

I especially like the "Retentiometer" patch:

<a href="http://www.fun-meter.com/products.html" target="_blank">http://www.fun-meter.com/products.html</a>

[Admin Guru]

Glad all the aircrew are happy with the measures - obviously the service needs to benefit from people it has already trained up to a high standard.. .I hope I can make it into the system before '03 when all the 'baby' pilots and navs won't receive flying pay any more.

Now with these measures in force maybe the RAF has found a way to silence all of its pay critics (current aircrew take note....)

[Capt Widebody]

AG - Nice One!! (Again) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

You are definitely a good wind-up merchant, or very unique indeed. No, we'll settle for excellent wind-up merchant, as in my good nature, I cannot fathom that anyone could be such a tw@t. :)

Not a bite, AG - just posted to stop others snapping at your bait.

I shall say a prayer for all admin staff in the RAF (and everyone else for that matter), that your last comment wasn't for real. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[simonbrewis]

AG has to be wind-up merchant. Surely IOT would have weeded one so bigotted and/or stupid out. It's a while since I was there but I still have some faith in the system.

[augustus]

It looks to me that AG is trying to become aircrew (hoping he does it before 03 so flying pay is still there!). Lets hope he doesn't come across the QFIs and QNIs who read these threads!!

[TimC]

My guess is that AG is someone(s) (maybe it takes more than one to think bait of this quality up) who is having a right laugh angling on this forum <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .

At least we've all been having a laugh at it :) .

[Al Bert]

Weasel

If you think you could do 5 years and then leave, think again. You will have to sign on until 55, as now, and PVR if you want to jump ship once you've qualified for the increased pension.

Al

[bobdog]

Does this mean that since I have signed on for spec aircrew I can now withdraw my intentions because they have now changed the terms of Service. Do you now not get your pension if you PVR after 38 until you reach 55. I was led to believe by the pension people that if you PVR as spec aircrew you get all that was due as if you had left at 38. However, to thank you for your past years they lop 10% off the pension. This could be illegal just as the drop in flying pay for the youngsters. I would welcome any information on this matter --- cos it is gonna affect me!

[DP Harvey]

Bobdog, if you take FRI2 you are committed to another 5 yrs. Presuming that the 1 yr PVR remains (for spec aircrew or now: PA), you can PVR at the 4yr point and leave at the 5 yr point and collect an immediate pension based on your daily rate of pay for the previous 3 yrs. Your daily rate of pay upon departure will include the "flying pay" element.

So, a 33 yr old Flt Lt pilot who doesn't give a rats arse about a career (with anybody) will receive £80K in 2 lumps over the next 5 yrs and leave at age 43 with a huge resettlement grant (3 times annual pension) plus a very handsome pension immediately payable. Without a mortgage to pay there would be no financial need to ever work again.

[Capt Widebody]

DP

Are you sure about the pension bit for PA? I understood that once you signed on for PA, you effectively couldn't receive your pension until 55 (i.e. trapped!!). It didn't make much sense to me (your version sounds better)- I shall have to go and read some more....

Either way, it is a good point about staying till 43 and effectively retiring, but unless that is what you wanted, you will much less employable at 43 than at 33 or 38, especially as far as the airlines are concerned. Like you said, you'd have to not want a career with anyone to do that!

I think out early if you're planning to get out at all would be most favourable for future employment and earning potential (or quality of life, even if the cash isn't that important). Personally, I'm just as much on the fence about staying for longer or leaving asap as I was before the announcement. I'll see what develops over the next year...

[WibbleOne]

The ramblings of a cynical ancient aviator:

I've read all the previous with some wry smiles, what's in it for me.... I think you've all lost the point. Last year let's slow the PVR rate, this year let's stop people taking their options, what do we get next year. The same old you play ball, we'll shove the bat............

Stop spending little money.. The root cause why aircrew are leaving is not about pay, it's about squeezing quarts out of pint pots. Spend real money, let's have another 6 sqns of FJs, spread the OOAs to one per tour not one per month, stop 'civilianising' Double the size of the RAF, lets bring the fun back into flying... Bring back the days of chewing the fat in the crewroom, where old geezers like me can spread the wisdom that 32 years in service provides. Let's have some of the good old days where we used to work hard and play even harder, when we were led by leaders not by managers, blah blah. Need I say more? No I'm not bitter and twisted, I still enjoy life in green, but I've watched the RAF go down the pan in the last 10 years, not caused by us on the coalface, but by beancounters who sit on their elbows all day thinking of ways to penny pinch. Comments on the back of a fag packet. Up the revolution.

Thought for the day: If Spec Aircrew are now Professional Aircrew what does that make you Career guys?

[bobdog]

DP I think you are correct about the pension bit, as I spoke to the dept last year about it, that is for spec aircrew. If they are planning on changing the goalposts for the PA side of things, then people need to be aware. Since capt wide has now put an element of doubt into it, it is something that needs clarifying. Personally I think if you have QUALIFIED for a pension ie done the time, you should receive both pension and gratuity if you decide to leave. Anyone know any lawyers upto speed on European employment law or should I speak to my MP. I might be entitled to some form of bonus but my freedom might be more important than cash. I will be 38 later on this year and have already signed on the line anyone out there know what I will get. (the wife wants to know!!!)

[The Pilgrim]

Wibbleone you get my vote sir.

[Hertz Van Rental]

Bobdog

Take a look at:

<a href="http://www.rafcom.co.uk" target="_blank">www.rafcom.co.uk</a>

It should give you the answers you need.

[Mowgli]

Well said Wibble, but if only - unfortunately the likes of you and I are probably considered to be unrealistic romantics.

I have great memories of my 15 years on sqns, and not so great memories of the last bit which was on the ground, the bit which convinced me I had to leave. But don't be sad, there will always be a bunch of excellent drinking buddies flying some cool machines (even if they're not the coolest on the apron, they're still pretty cool) and when it's time to go, it's time to go.

I write from Indonesia, where I am flying on a contract my holiday airline has secured for a 2 month period. The good news is, that I'm having fun, being payed allowances, doing some demanding flying in monsoon weather with volcanos around, and shooting the breeze with my flying buddies and the ginger beers. We number about 60 out here, with 3 big jets (76s), and the parties are just like the ones I remember from my light blue days! Oh, and no secondary duties!

So, if it all gets too much, try flying outside, it's fun, if not in the weeds any more, but a lot more comfy and I get brought coffee now by some friendly lovelies.

[bobdog]

HVR, many thanks for that link. What I dont understand is how you can leave as spec aircrew without PVR'ing before the age of 55. Does anyone know of a way. Please let me know (excludes the underpants and pencils trick).. .If you look at the the two tables on the pensions you will see there is a lot of money being ripped off just cos you fancy a change of job. So why do you get financially penalised for deciding to leave the company, is this legal?.. .I have really enjoyed my time in the RAF and enjoy my current job, however, well -- you know the rest, now where are my shoes.....

[Arty]

Is it me, or is it the case that for those of us with an IPP of between Apr 03 and Mar 04, we have to make a decision this year, but there is no retention incentive?

As I understand it, FRI 2 is only valid till Mar 03, then it will be 'reviewed anually', so it could be either the whole lot, or nowt. We are also too old (less than 2 yrs to do) to receive FRI 1. Someone please explain, or at least tell me I'm wrong again!

[Seak1ng]

A sad feeling has again come over me.

Maybe when the non-renumery packages really start to kick in I will again feel good about going to work.

Until then, I guess I picked the wrong week to quit smoking!

[rud0lf]

Aged 34 3/4 as I see it before the FRI I was going to leave at 38, and now I am still going to leave at 38 but £14,000 - tax @ 40% better off.

The FRI's are being given out as lump sums instead of a very large increase in flying pay so they can be taken away as easily as they are given. It would be impossible to rescind any increase in pay.

The FRI is also based on market forces, if the market is buoyant outside the FRI payments will continue. So if the market is good you can leave grab gratuity and pension and have a good chance of getting a job with fair pay prospects. If the market is poor, it would be difficult to get a job outside and no FRI, Catch 22.

As far as the non-remuneration aspects are concerned, those of my era and our more mature colleagues remember the good times. Those recruited after options for change etc. don’t and in years to come they will be drawn out of the service entirely on remuneration.

As I watched American football the other day I saw service personnel watching from the touchline, Walt Disney have introduced complimentary tickets for the American military.

Quote from the Disney website:

”In support of our American military's fight for freedom, the Disneyland® Resort has announced its "Disney's Armed Forces Salute," offering complimentary admission to Disneyland® park and Disney's California Adventure™ park, as well as substantial ticket discounts for family members and friends.”

Until there is the same level of national pride then it will be difficult to recruit and retain high calibre people, especially if we spend money on dross adverts.

Apologies for the fragmented post.

[Paul McKeksdown]

A Point to ponder!

34 3/4, registered within the Linkup scheme to receive my £10,000 training benefit (lump sum not taxed!). Now within the FRI system able to receive £14,000 taxed at 40% however I have to give back my Linkup monies. Lets do a simple sum: £14,000 - 40% Tax = £8,400 in my pocket. Sounds great!

At least I can spend it on what I want.

To agree with Wibble, after my 15 years it would be nice to see the 'Good old days' back, but being a realist they are well gone.

Remember, the grass may not always be greener on the other side of the fence but at least in a Civvie job you get to stand still longer to look at it! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[onthewayout]

Arty

Unfortunately I think you are correct. I am in the same boat as you with less than 2 years to do until my 38/16 point.

Lets hope that FRI 2 will remain in place through 03.

Last year too young for the 10k bonus and now too old. Oh well back to the ATPL studies!!!

OTWO

[Tanker Mate]

Got back from a week-long route Friday pm and have spent the weekend looking at the `PA` pay spine with great interest. (Spec. Aircrew for 2 years now).. .The idea of a pension of £32000 at age 55 (Gp Capt. equivilant) and a gratuity of £96000 - tax free is extremely seductive BUT, the official AFPRB document which is available on line clearly states:. ." Entrants to the PA pay spine would waive their rights to an immediate pension".. .To me this clearly means that you are effectively trapped for up to 17 years. If you get hacked off with life and PVR early YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE ANY PENSION UNTIL AGE 55!! I would assume though that you would receive a gratuity.. .You are also gambling on remaining physically fit to fly for 17 years. Permanant loss of medical cat. will mean you getting kicked off the PA structure leaving you a choice of:. .1. Stay in RAF doing ***** non flying job for less salary and therefore a smaller pension at 55. .2. Leaving the service with a gratuity and a smaller preserved pension that cannot be drawn until age 55?. .If I`ve interpreted this correctly then I foresee very few current SA types switching to PA, especially as you can effectively be blackmailed by the scheme into accepting a ****ty posting when you are no longer protected by the PVR option.. .I really hope I`m wrong about this - but somehow I don`t think so!. .Comments anybody?

[BEagle]

Although I won't be able to transfer being (just!) too ancient, that's pretty well the way I read it, mate!

Those with less than 5 years to 55 have an extremely flexible black-and-yellow option of a 6 month notice that they're going to leave. Which means about 2 months when all terminal leave, resettlement etc is taken into account. So having been told that someone 2 years younger might get a 32K pension based upon full earnings rather than a 22K one based on basic pay only, what conceivable 'retention' incentive is there for such avuncular figures of experience to remain one minute longer than 6 months from now.....

[RubiC Cube]

Transfer to PA is by selection. With a potential 7 years to serve, I have been told that its not worth my while applying as 2 Gp are limiting the number of PA selections. So, as Beags says, will I be content to work for another 7 years on lesser terms than someone doing the same job? I think not. 6 month PVR incoming at end of current FRI.

[NorthernSID]

have I missed something?

Where does the 32K pension come from?

I thought it was a 'representative'Wg cdr pension, which for a 34y served Wg Cdr approx = 27k

Any links to the 32K?

[BEagle]

'The maximum would equate to a Gp Capt on initial appointment' - was what we were told....

And that's around £32K, or so chum Tankermate reckons!

The solution? Award pensions based upon 100% of TOTAL EARNINGS to all those who don't have 5+ years remaining to their retirement date. Or find a few more people with the same level of experience to replace them in about 6 month's time, give or take an increment or two..........

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[horatio nelson]

Great deal of staff work however:

a) Non-renumeration package will take ages. .b) I still get twice as much to leave next year!. .c) Aircrew are now divided. .d) The RAF is now divided!

Good effort tho,thanks but no thanks.

[lucky_b*]

Does anyone know which aircrew were asked opinions about aircrew retention. we haven't been able to find a single AA willing to admit he took part! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

All of them at Aldergrove where asked if that helps. The key messages from us were:

1. Flying pay towards pension.. .2. Gratuity for all at 38/16 or equiv.

We thought that the above would not alienate AA and ground trades alike.

What a shame they didn't implement this. I suspect that they heard and understood, however, the Treasury said no.

HPT