say again ???

[Rick28]

I am one of a few Canadian controllers working in Geneva ACC.. I have never in my years of controlling had so many "say agains" or "was that for us". Have any of you flown through and had trouble understanding us? Might be a frequency problem...any comments welcome :)

[Orangewing]

EuroATC, I am sure it has nothing to do with frequencies. Here there are so many different nationalities in a relatively small amount of airspace (compared to Canada) speaking in a second language, that misunderstandings are bound to occur.
I regularly fly through Geneva ATC,and even though I am British still find various accents confusing, so God only knows how the Pilots whose first language is not English manage!!
Haven't heard a Canadian accent yet, though! :D :D
Regards all,

[Superpilut]

EuroATC, I cross the Geneva airspace quite often but never encountered difficulties. I remember, though that when you fly at lower levels like 230 and coming from the direction of Banko, the controllers sound like they have a bucket over their heads... But normally: No problem, and even great service! Thanks... Supa ;)

[Rick28]

Thanks, I know lowlevel until about FL250 or so is not great because of the ALPS especially in the area of BANKO, Torino departures are also not great.

[Bokkerijder]

No problem at all Europilot ! You must be the controller who speaks French with a Canadian accent.

I think it's very professional that you're concerned about a large number of "say agains."

I wish the same could be said for Itailian or Spanish controllers...... :D

Most of them simpy do not seem to care whether or not someone understands them. :(

[Rick28]

thanks... there are actually a few of us that speak with the accent but I am the only Canadian the doesn't have a french accent when I speak english :) sometimes frustrating when I am busy with the amount of say agains... I think I will just speak slower :)

[FL310]

Guess this is one reason for the "say again"s...
When you come from Italy and had a chat with the chewing gum controller from Padua, thereafter disturbed the pasta con pomodoro lunch of some Milano controllers, it is actually a relief to hear the Geneve ATC with clear and precise answers...

[Few Cloudy]

I ran a statistic two months back on all the say agains I heard in Europe. Guess what - 85% were misunderstood frequencies.

Hardly surprising with the mouthful of numbers needed for a frequency change these days - it takes a long time to say - a long time to read back and a long time to say again: "One three five decimal two zero five"..even when not combines with a "and inform heading" or even a simple "Goodbye".

With a suitable matrix all these frequences could be covered in alpha numeric form "change frequency to C-12 or E-15" etc. So how about a reasonable selector box standard to save the unneccessary chat?

Probably a pipe dream as long as we pilots and controllers continue to "hack it"...

[wallabie]

Bonjour Cousin !!

I got quite a shock the first time I got you lot on the frequency. I somehow knew I couldn't possibly be in Montreal on a 320, so what was wrong ?? Sorry, different ?
Getting a frequency in french under the form one two three decimal five is very surprising in Geneva.
Now I have you here, what brought you to Geneva ? Canada is fantastic place. Mind you, Switzerland is kind of nice to.
See you at Lusar.

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: wallabie ]

[Mr Benn]

Quite often on busy frequencies such as many of the European ones someone steps on the first part of the message, usually the callsign bit, we can guess if its probably meant for us (ie. if we're near a handover point) but we have to say "is that for us?" just in case. As for the "say again" well, I guess lots of people don't listen with their full attention...

[Gantenbein]

So, a few possible causes for the say agains:

See above, multilingual environment
See above, terrain features
See above, six digit frequencies


A few suggetions of my own:

Early morning, you'll get a lot of flights returning north from Africa. The crew will be tired and less alert.
It is my firm conviction that since the introduction of 6.33 kHz sets, the sound quality of the airborne equipment has deteriorated.
Many flights transiting through the Geneva FIR are assigned slot times before departure. Not beneficial for alertness.


EuroATC, I think your suggestion to speak more slowly can only help. If only other controllers did the same thing, especially in North America. For they don't realise that English, for many of us, is still a foreign language.

[stator vane]

i never say, say again!

i make some attempt at the frequency given or fix and it gets corrected if wrong or repeated if correct. so sometimes i think controllers have some difficulty hearing our english.

and often it happens just when the first officer says something or the cabin crew comes in and says it's too cold.

have not had any special problems with geneva and it does help to fly the same routes time after time.

there is one ATC'er from Nebraska that works on Bourdeax or however it is spelled. his english is amazing.

[5 APU's captain]

As for me - just English with a FRENCH accent is most difficalt to undestand......sorry.

[autobrakemedium]

Probably all US airlines. They always have to be called twice, always have to have the message repeated and always use ambiguous non standard RT (well maybe not always but enough for it to be a safety issue).

I have never flown in the USA but I guess the US controllers must be brilliant to stop US pilots from bumping into each other, especially considering how busy the airspace is there.

:D

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: autobrakemedium ]

[Rick28]

Some great comments :) I guess it is probably strange to hear a Canadian here in Europe, I am the one who speaks french with a Canadian accent but the only one that speaks English with no accent. (for the brits I guess you can say I speak with a American accent :)) I also group numbers in french :)
I came to Geneva 6 months ago for a change, worked in Toronto ACC before coming here and let me tell you what a change!! I like the traffic and the people here...pilot are very polite and understanding...some of the restrictions here are pretty heavy. IF you guys ever hear me on the frequency, don't be afraid to say hi :)!!

[Rick28]

Actually US pilots are the ones that understand me the best, I can speak faster and non-standard.. :)

[fly4fud]

Salut EuroATC!
Nice to see you made it on PPRune and welcome. Also welcome on the European airwaves. We've already been talking a few times with each other, and I will happily confirm here that you have NO french accent ;) when speaking english!
But when I hear you speak french to others (our company policy asks us to com in english only), what a super exotic singing accent :D
(private note: just toured the Gaspesie from Montreal 2 months ago and we had a smashing time, people are soo friendly, thanks to all!)

Back to the subject, crisscrossing Europe has brought to me the fact that you ATC people sure show some nerves. Never heard so many say agains since the introduction of the channels. Of course one idea could have been the to omit the 1 digit (a la America), but in Europe everything is getting more complicated, justifies all the political bull.
Already mentionned the different accents, though I don't think being a problem once you are used to.

Anyway, have fun and I'm looking forward saying again :cool:

[sandra2]

GVA ATC, what a breath of fresh air, especially when entering from the S.E. ( as some one has already said).
I dont want to moan or upset anyone, but seeming how we are on this subject.
Is it just me that has a terrible time understanding the Poe Valley ATC?
I feel that all situational awareness goes straight out the window as soon as you get past TOP.!I may be wrong but I feel like you have your work load doubled.
This may be close to the bone, but fair I think. Do ATC pesons have a European standardised exam process as pilots do now ie. JAA ( or are suposed to have) :confused:

[Rick28]

No standard testing per say, each country or ATC system has their own standards set by the their governments. Usually consists of refresher training every year for emergencies and abnormal situations...ie: bomb scares, fuel dumps, radar failures.
You talk about ATC after TOP... try coordinating with them on the phone, just the language barrier makes it difficult, there are definitely different standards for air traffic controllers throughout Europe!

[Douglas Spragg]

Superpilut

Some many years ago, I had a pilot complain that my R/T was difficult to understand as it sounded as though I had my head in a bucket. I solved this problem instantly by grabbing the plastic waste basket, put it on my head and did a R/T check - the response from the pilot was a relieved 5 x 5. It may well be the future for Geneva - everybody to wear buckets. :)

[Rick28]

buckets over our heads... that would go over well :) thanks everyone for the comments :)

[EXCIN]

It's all started with the introduction of the 737 "New Generation". The background noise in the cockpit is so loud that you simply can't hear the radio any more !!!

[BmPilot21]

Euro-ATC. Fly Milan-LHR frequently and always a relief to leave Italian airspace! :D

However one question - when climbing through your airspace WHY are there SO many frequncy changes. We seem to get clearance up a couple of flight levels then have to contact the next frequency for higher. I'm sure we talk to about 6 Geneva frequencies in about 5 mins!!

In contrast, out of London will get 2 frequency changes, and maybe only 3 throughout the whole of France.

I'll keep a listen out for you.
regards.

[Rick28]

I know what you mean, there are alot of sectors in Geneva.. well first off, if you are coming from MILAN, here are the possible sectors
ground-FL 260
FL 270-310
FL 330-350
FL 370 +
When you get to MOLUS you have basically the same thing, the "MOLUS sectors" cross all the even altitude traffic over MOLUS and the "MILPA" sectors cross all the uneven altitude traffic over MILPA. Very good system actually.
You are coming from MILAN, climbing to FL240 or 260.. the first sector talks to you, gives you a new code and a route clearance...frequency change, next sector climbs to 310, then gets you a higher level if requested, then you switch to another sector usually for about 1 minute then to another then to Paris or Reims :)

Hope it's clear :)

[BmPilot21]

Gosh, now I'm confused :D
Sounds familiar though!

Ok, think I've got it....Dug a couple of old flight logs:

Initial climb to 240
125.27 first Freq.
Then 125.55 - squawk change
then 135.85 to FL290
then 133155 (French?)

Molus is on the return from Milan, Milpa on the way in. Thanks for the info.

Do you HAVE to speak French to French pilots? It helps everybody else's situational awareness if you don't. I thought being a multi-lingual country you might use English as standard.

[Rick28]

Close..
Departure from MILAN.125.27 climb to 240
switch to Geneva 125.55 climb to 260, route clearance
switch to Geneva 126.05, further climb to 310
if you climb higher this same sector will give you the level (350?) then you switch to 133.630, then after crossing MOLUS you switch to 133.155 then off to Paris
if you do no go higher than FL 310 you stay on 126.05, cross MOLUS and Geneva on 134.85 then off to Paris

French is used on all frequencies here, some Air France speak english but we speak french to anyone that calls us in french, quite a change for me coming from Toronto Canada :)

[Rick28]

Midland pilot, say hi next time your hear a guy speaking with no accent in Geneva :)

[BmPilot21]

Wilco.

[Paterbrat]

Been operating into out of LIML and LIMC and actualy haven't found the Italian ATC anything other than polite and helpful, sometimes a bit busy, but on the whole as good as anywhere else in Europe. Used to find Greece a bit of a problem but I think it was more a question of their equipment limiting what they could do. Reckon most of the time the people down below do a pretty good job although like everything else in life there is the occasional guy/girl who is having a bad hair day. Agree with the comment made on the new frequencies though, big mouthful and sound quality of some of them absolutely crap.

[Don't Look Now]

Euro,

Don't forget you're not the only foreigner at GVA. 2 Kiwis, 1 Brit, countless canadians!

DLK :eek:

[Akro]

EuroATC,
I have really no problems to understand all of you at GVA ACC! (Maybe, it's because I did some of my training in the US.)
How many Canadians are you there?
Keep up your good job, guys!

I have much more troubles in Spain to understand these guys overthere. It's not only the accent but also their poor transmission. Sometimes I feel that the controllers aren't that fluent in English. (Once we heard an ELT going off so I told the controller; he let me reapeat my message several times and at the end of all those attempts to tell him what happend he just replied with "Roger". Not very encouraging in case something "non-standard" happens.)

autobrakemedium,
US controllers do an outstanding job! They provide an excellent service even to a "small" VFR traffic and treat 'em like the "big-ones"! I haven't seen such a service here in Europe.