Ferry Flight To Usa

[mgTF]

anyone has some experience to shed on ferry flight from EU to USA with single engine on the atlantic, I am talking about experience and regulamentation, where to find the rules?

thanks

[nicolai]

North Atlantic International General Aviation Operations Manual (http://www.nat-pco.org/nat/CurrentNAT%20IGA.pdf) is some of the rules.

[ferrydude]

Relevant flight/operating regulations will vary depending on the country of aircraft registration and your routing. Since you don't state either, kinda hard to advise.

None of the relevant civil airworthiness authorities have any specific experience requirements, although there are airman certification requirements. Experience will be determined by the insurance company.

[mgTF]

the aircraft is UK registered

[V1... Ooops]

In that case, your regulatory agency won't even let you fly it off your island. Check with FedEx to see if they have a shipping bag large enough to fit your single engine aircraft. :)

[PappyJ]

In years gone by, I made 5 Trans Atlantic crossings in light twins and 3 in single-engine aircraft.

The rules posted by Nicolai pretty much cover US registered aircraft and offer general GA operations in that area. For other counties of registrar, obviously you'd have to check with them.

For flights FROM the US which transit via Canada; the Canadian Authorities USED to require specific types of equipment be on-board, and would require the pilot to meet specific experience requirements. Albeit, that was several years ago and those rules may have changed.

There are a lot of variables which contribute to a COMFORTABLE journey across the pond in a Light Aircraft. Far too many to arbitrarily address here. PM me if you have specific questions.

[Graybeard]

A friend crossed the pond several times in singles, until he got a good scare. From then on it was twins. Naturally, he met others who were making the crossings as well. Several were lost eventually.

GB

[galaxy flyer]

GB

Regards twin-engine planes, true ONLY after burning off enough fuel to have a OEI ceiling. :ok:

GF

[FloridaFerryPilot]

I have taken many singles across and in both directions. The one adage I have heard that applies the most is that your plane will make significantly more and different noises when you are over the water.

The regulations are not much different from the local ones in the EU or North America other than equipment requirements, but if you cannot go at 25,000 (FL250) or better, you need to fly far north or have an HF Radio for the leg between Goose Bay and Greenland.

[fhegner]

mg

Even with two engines 'things' can go really wrong......

A Cessna Skymaster from the US to Sweden:

http://www.pprune.org/canada/354187-arctic-ordeal.html

good luck

[surveytheworld]

The weather between the east coast of Canada (Goose Bay) and Greenland can get downright nasty, and many times when that's the case, the alternate routing over the Greenland Ice Cap (min. FL130) from BIRK to BGSF, then BGSF to CYFB can be a safer (though a less-direct) alternative, plus you're in VHF coverage the pretty much the entire way (I've done that routing several times down at FL100.) From there, you can get fuel (double check the fuel situation though ahead of time) at CYVP, Wabush or Schefferville (don't stay the night in Scheff if you can help it though) as well as Chibougamou or Val D'or depending on your ultimate destination.

[Nom De Guerre]

Let me know if you need BGSF contacts.

[411A]

Did the blue spruce route many times during the mid-1970's with large turbopropellor types...not for the unwary.

[GlueBall]

Top of the list items would be for you to take a life raft with a canopy, a portable transceiver and a pocket GPS unit with which to transmit on 121.5 your Lat-Long position to an airliner. :ooh:

[mgTF]

I was thinking the same, 2 rafts, some spare lifevest, a full insulated wetsuit (actually drysuit), a portable ELT lat/long transimmer, a couple of flashlite, some bottle of water and some foodbar, all contained in a sort of survaival bag (except for the wetsuit, already on)

[jimjim1]

I have read some material on t'internet regarding ferry experiences.

NWPilot's TranAtlantic Flight (http://www.alexisparkinn.com/nwpilot%27s_tranatlantic_flight.htm)
The "fun" bit is day 2.

The gentleman's web site
International Aircraft Ferry Flights Ferrying Delivery Pilot. (http://www.aircraftdelivery.net/)

He writes occassionally as NW_Pilot on rec.aviation.piloting

e.g.
rec.aviation.piloting | Google Groups (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/2569c0fd1109ab0a/02a171ad87e8f9ea?tvc=1#02a171ad87e8f9ea)

Oh! Maybe the links wont work? One way to find out.

I have no connection with the above other than as a terrified reader:)

Good luck.

[savannah]

Dear All,
I just stumble in this room accidentally, but i won't mind to drop a line or two,
I did a ferry flt on a PA-31 NAVAJO from San Diego(montgomery Airport) to East Africa in May 2003
Wx far North was lousy so i opted for direct from Saint Jones CA to Azores FL 190
took me a little over 9hrs with 140kts on my tail, I looked on Both GPS ground speed and they confirmed i was doing 350kts, I prayed it stayed that way which it did, with a blue sky all across the nasty pond, i couldn't stop smiling, when i saw a hill in the middle of the ocean about 80nm or so. I asked my self why would anyone want to get expensive PT-6 while a 2 Lycomings would speed you the same across? ha ha oh yes if the power of your good Lord is behind you..
I salute those who criss cross the Pond.... but as for me? been there done that!

[Low Flier]

In addition to all the aforementioned clobber, I would suggest that you consider also taking a small AIS receiver and a hand-held marine VHF transceiver.

All ships keep a listening watch on Channel 16 and you can see the location and identities of all ships within VHF range on the AIS display. From FL100, for example, you'll 'see' all ships within a hundred mile radius and more.

In the event of a ditching, your best chance of being recovered alive is if you have already alerted a ship before actually ditching. You'll have several miles of glide before turning onto your ditching heading and by closing the distance between you and your salvation you significantly improve your chances of post-ditching survival. You will also have triggered them to turn towards your probable ditching location instead of steaming away at 20 knots. Give them your current position, heading and speed and TTG to touchdown and let them do the chartwork to work out their best intercept heading. They will also do all the comms stuff with the rescue authorities ashore. Prefix your callsign with the word "aircraft" or they might not understand who/what you are at first. They expect to hear ships on that frequency. Aircraft are rare there.

You might even consider, if you have a sufficient surplus fuel reserve, applying a few minor jinks in your track to optimise your track in terms of intercommunication range with AIS-observed ships to give yourself a little bit of comfort factor.

For those unfamiliar with AIS: it's a little bit like Mode-S, but is transmitted blind every few seconds without interrogation, on marine VHF. The data string includes Lat/Long, ID course, speed and a few other bits of techno-wibble.

[debiassi]

If I can be of assistance, please let me know or visit Home Page Alpha2Bravo (http://www.alpha2bravo.com) Nreg or EU reg a pleasure.
Best regards
Dave

[Sygyzy]

It's 25 years since my last ferry flight. Both ways-large (King Air, Pressurised Navajo) and small, Islander, Trislander, Aztec, Cherokee, Musketeer and Sundowner and many more.

The difference between a single and a twin is that 'a single has more range'. For the first 4 hours in a light twin, fuelled to 10% over max weight,it's going to go only one way if you lose an engine. After that you'll be on just one engine flying for at least four hours starting at gross weight. With cabin tanks in a single you can go on for ever. Once I did 14:30 Gander to Gander trying to get to Reyjavik in a Sundowner when the depression moved north and changed the winds and weather radically. (Couldn't find Narssasaq)

The real secret it to take time. I've spent 10 days in Reyjavik waiting for the weather and winds on the Reyjavik-Goose leg to improve. If flying west go in the daytime. The transatlantic airliners will be there ready to relay position reports and the like. They'll be interested in you too-on a discreeet freq. Going east, nightime is better for the same reason (+you can't see the ocean so you won't get so frightened!). Prestwick Reyjavik Goose and Gander met offices used to have (and probably still do) first class teams who would give accurate forecast 500mb winds in 5 degrees of longitude bands and accurate lowlevel weather and icing levels. This was all in the days long before GPS. Planning, more planning, loran and the beacons on the (long gone) weather ships meant I never missed Europe.

Much of this is also pschycological. Why would an engine fail in the next 12 hours of an ocean crossing if its a new a/c and come all the way (12 hrs?) from Wichita or Florida to the NE coast. Once you've delivered it people will fly it over high ground and probably above low cloud without a thought. Going west the a/c is unlikely to be new, and provided you KNOW it's maintenance record the same applies. The run to the ocean boundary will provide you with time enough to check the cruising/leaned-out fuel consumption as well as the oil levels and the cabin heater.

NE Canada is cold at this time of year. Greenland more so. It won't warm up until late March. A puff of cloud at this time of year will decorate you like a Christmas cake but give you much less pleasure. Leave any aspirations for a first crossing until late spring or the summer. Canadian winters can be brutal.

And if you ditch. Do you know exactly where you are? (Probably you do today with GPS). First you have to get the a/c onto the water, then climb out-uninjured with little shock and get into your dinghy. They then have to find you, and rescue you...Best chance is to alight on the ocean, let the aircraft sink to the ocean floor and then climb out and run like hell!!

Are you in your early twenties with nothing to lose. Just how hungry are you? This isn't an impossible task and newbies do it all the time (I've met people on honeymoon) but I'd certainly leave it until the better weather and keep pumping the brains here for regulations and survival tips. You'll find your hearing will improve out of all proportion. You'll be able to hear a pin drop in a crowded room-never mind the nuance of an engine note change.

Above all take your time. Don't schedule this for three days, budget for twice as much-then come back here and tell us all about it.:)

S

[clunckdriver]

The above post says about all of it, one more item however, get an oil sample to the best predictive lab you can find before you head over, I recieved a very bad report many years ago, so was on my way back to Witicha when the thing on the front stoped dead!The modern survival suits are so much better than the crap we used to wear, a trawler crew were picked up of Nova Scotia a few years back after many hours in the drink and were in great shape, just keep the gogles on no mater how much they hurt.above all take your time, if the owner doesnt want to pay for hotels ect, dont fly the bloody thing!

[goldfish85]

There are some who say your over-water emergency equipment should include an anvil. Hold on and get it over with quickley.

I did some flights south of Cape Horn and had been told to expect rescue in about three weeks.

I have an immersion suit I'd be willing to sell.


Dick

[debiassi]

If you need to hire any of the essential equipment, give Andrew Bruce a call at far North aviation in Wick. You can pick up PLB, Immersion Suit, sat Phone etc up on your way out and you can drop these off at Goose Bay Labrador. If you need any help with routing let me know but its pretty straight forward.

[winguru]

So how is this going.

I am currently looking to something like this, even if i have to share the fuel.

[djhallux]

Hi all..

I know a man that does that crossing for about 65 years...

Jim Hazelton in australia...
He migth be able to help you..
Give him a ring...

+61265617205

Cheers.

[Bobbsy]

"Flying" magazine had an interesting article about ferrying a TBM850 across the Atlantic a few months back. Part 1 is Atlantic Crossing in a Single-Engine Turboprop | FLYING Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/atlantic-crossing-single-engine-turboprop?page=0,0)

...and Part 2 is Atlantic Crossing?Part II | FLYING Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/atlantic-crossingpart-ii)

It's in no way definitive about the regulations but gives some interesting background and implies that single engine ferry flights aren't all that unusual.

Bob

[jimjim1]

A guy using the name NW_pilot posted on rec.aviation.piloting a while back with some details of exploits.

search google if my links don't work.

rec.aviation.piloting | Google Groups (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.aviation.piloting/search?hl=en&group=rec.aviation.piloting&q=nw_pilot&qt_g=Search+this+group)

His website is http://aircraftdelivery.net/


rec.aviation.piloting | Google Groups (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/1ae5b2530acbe986/c4ab18925298b0fb?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=nw_pilot#c4ab18925298b0fb)

"2 172's to Jordan Via Azores, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cypress.
1 Arrow IV to Bulgaria Via Azores, Spain, Italy
2 SR22's to Japan Via Alaska,
1 Cessna 400 to EU (OshKosh)
1 Seneca V to India, Via Alaska, Japan, Philipines, Thiland,
1 SR22 to Newzealand Via Hawaii, X-mas Island, Figi or Pogo Pogo

I am also taking applications for an additional ferry pilot or two to ferry
new Cessna's, and Cirrus in the Fall working on a contract for 25 Sr22
deliveries and 18 Cessna's November 2008 to Febuarry 2009."

Quite a few.

[V1... Ooops]

There's a little bit of discussion (and some photos) of a ferry flight I recently made from Canada to Europe at this post: http://www.pprune.org/flight-ground-ops-crewing-dispatch/413808-how-fly-cyvm-bggh-canada-greenland-no-airways-available.html

[Dan Winterland]

A EPIRB transmitter can be bought for less than 200 quid. It transmits your individual identificatio0n on 406Mhz and you will be located immediately by SARSAT. Mostly a yacht gadget, it's the best location aid on the market.

And immersion suits are a must - even in summer.

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

give Andrew Bruce a call at far North aviation in Wick

Yep, that's sound advice, if you are going to risk life and limb.

Any search engine will find his site for you in a moment.

(I have no involvement with Andrew other than a respect for his considerable expertise and the way he does business).

Finally, for what it's worth, I think that ferrying piston engined aeroplanes (OK, not DC-things!) across the pond is foolhardy in the extreme. Take it apart and crate it, is my advice.

[tomahawk1673]

That is very true :-)

[mgTF]

being on the final stage, I'm looking for a JAA CRI reated on the PA46dlx.

anyone around?

[V1... Ooops]

mgTF: I suggest you also read this thread...


Fleigle:

mgTF is planning to fly his own aircraft to North America - this for the purpose of attending Oshkosh this coming summer - for that reason, I don't think that the great pissing match and mud-slinging competition that comprises the "Ferry Bad Experience" thread is of much relevance.

FYI I work for an aircraft manufacturer and ferry new build aircraft internationally as part of my job responsibilities - I made a point of meeting up with mgTF in Italy last fall and spending a day with him explaining more or less how he should go about planning his ferry flight. He intends to make the flight together with one or two other pilots (of the same type) who will also be attending Oshkosh.

Michael

[galaxy flyer]

Michael,

I asked this earlier, wrt the -400, you posted some PERF number for it, specifically V speeds. Do you use FAR 25 as the performance basis. That is, do you compute data on field length, FAR 25 climb gradients?

GF

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Never ever thought of those, good plan.
Just the VHF would be fine, as you will TX your mayday, with lat long from the sat, on 16... BUT remember Ch16 is not really monitored, as the nautical world has an automated system. a bit like selcall, (DSC), and all station distress messages are prefixed by special selcall bongs.

EPIRB is a good option, used by Nautical and Aeronautical types, but there might be registration problems, so sort this out early.

Imodium (!!!!) Sat phone, with GPS, is a good plan too, the normal Nokia not much use.

Glf

[pax britanica]

Its Iridium
www.iridium.com-
their phones use satellite connections ordinary mobiles use a mast down the street-not many of them in the Artic wastes.
Very interesting thread for a regular atlantic Pax - good luck to any of you who flies it on pistons and small props
PB

[Miles Magister]

Guys,

I used to fly long range search and rescue, albeit a little while ago. I spent many hours over the atlantic looking for missing light aircraft and found only a very few of them.

If you want to take your light aircraft across the pond I would advise sticking it in a crate and using a ship just like the air racers do.

MM

[jetopa]

All ships keep a listening watch on Channel 16 and you can see the location and identities of all ships within VHF range on the AIS display. From FL100, for example, you'll 'see' all ships within a hundred mile radius and more.


Don't wanna sound too pessimistic, but this sounds like an excellent advice to me...! :ok:

[minstermineman]

Imodium (!!!!)



Its Iridium



I dont know - Immodium might be a good thing too !!

[Lurcherman]

The reason there are so many American built aircraft all over the world is because of tanking and ferry pilots.
Done properly it is usually the quickest and most cost effective way to deliver an aircraft.
It has been going on since the war!!
At one point the co I work for had 28 pilots on the books going everywhere including across the Pacific pre GPS,Loran. All DR till you picked up the beacon.
Admittedly the consequences when something goes wrong are serious.
The incidents that have happened over the last few years have all been down to Human Factors.
It has not been the aircraft letting the pilot down.
Pressure, financial, need the money, from client, from ferry co. from wife/girlfriend. Where are you you said you would be.....!They should have stayed on the ground, gone back to hotel and had a beer!
It helps if you don't run out of fuel! and winterise the engine.
But I am biased, my business is ferrying! Not crating

[Lurcherman]

The most I have heard 1st hand is 47 in a year. Transatlantic virtually all piston single. It was a piston twin that he accompanied to the bottom of the Atlantic. Human factors.
Others 20+ is busy.

[thore]

Hey folks,

I tried to ferry my 2007 Cirrus SR22 Turbo from the US over the atlantic to Belgium in the last week. But the weather was simply not good enough for me. So I decided to fly to Halifax Intl., park the plane there and take a direct service from Halifx to Frankfurt to get back to work.

Anyone interested in bringing this beauty to Belgium?

Cirrus SR22 Turbo
2007
450TT, fresh annual
Avidyne, 2x Garmin 430W
TKS
DFC90 AP
complete survival gear inside the plane (raft / suits / vests / PLB)
VERY TASTY COOKIES inside, also SNICKERS and DIET DR PEPPER ;)
insured, fresh DBs, full tanks, ready to go

thore AT edxh DOT de