Apache/Tornado navs

[fone_effect]

Has anyone else heard the rumour that spare Tornado navs are going to re-tread as front seat apache mates? Seems like a pretty good idea, atleast until the AAC are up to speed with the EW game etc.

[ol_benkenobi]

Pi22 off

[blind pue]

Thats a Rumour that goes back many years.
It started in the early 90's when apaches were due in service by 97.

[mkeane]

Let's take a reality check here! No matter how good a Tornado Nav might be at the old EW stuff the front seater on an Apache is a PILOT and a HELICOPTER PILOT to boot! No matter how many spare Tornado Navs are loafing about in crewrooms there are not enough to weather the attrition rate that would be required to put more than a couple of them into the front - PILOTS - seat of an attack helicopter. Now, Harrier pilots - thats another story! ;)

[ENG]

I think its a grate idea. Maybe they'd get demoted to LCpl as well.

[Helmut Visorcover]

Eng, you mean promoted? :D

[Grey Area]

I hope your bull cwp is flashing, tqnct4cwp. The pilot is very definitely the back seater in the WAH64, the "gunner" rides up front. Perhaps as he sees more he could navigate as well (nav for short?).

Be under no illusion the pilot's job is to drive the weapon carrier to the release point (that goes globally), he doesn't necessarily have to be the aimer or have tactical command.

PS Before you start I am a pilot, only I'm a realistic one.

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: Grey Area ]

[Tilt&Gain]

I know of an ex Tornado Nav who looked at this cross-over. He has just finished Shawbury......

[Sugar_Junkie]

As I understand it, the guy in the front works the weapons systems etc, and the back-seater flies. However, both people are trained to do both jobs, i.e. the WSO/NAV also needs to be a qualified pilot, incase of incapaciation (err....death) of the other party, and the need to continue of the mission.

SJ

[mkeane]

Grey Area

If the guy in the front seat is not a pilot, what does he do if the rear seater catches a headfull of 23mm? I supose he puts his very smart all singing all dancing helmet between his legs and kisses his @rse goodbye!!

[lou couturn]

hey....... why dont we makr the DIF (dude in front) a bloke who map reads, delivers ordnance and relies on the more experiened DIB (you work it out) to get him to said ordnance release point. We could also give DIF some basic flying hands on to enable him to land in the event of DIF getting a 23mm in the skull, his flying would no doubt improve through osmosis in the unit to quite a high level but initially a nice run on would suffice.. aah but what would we call such a beast?? Anyone for re inventing this round thing we land on??? :D
:eek:

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Lou Coutturn ]

[Fox-1]

If anybody knows the whereabouts of all these spare Navs I'm sure the Innsworth would like to know. As far as the front line is concerned, Navs are in very short supply. Before you can have somebody to retrain you need a body in the first place!!

[fone_effect]

Lou - Would have been a JAFA in a previous life?

[MightyGem]

I remember a briefing on the percieved roles of the front and rear seaters back around 89/90. When I suggested that perhaps we would be returning to the Pilot/Air Gunner concept (CREST having been in a year or so), it was hinted that comments like that would not do my career any good!!

:D

[lou couturn]

Fohn.. no I am afraid I went straight to the AWACS position as a lofty Cpl. :D Thing was we didnt even get a C/S

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Lou Coutturn ]

[Felixmini]

Well knowing the forces as it is present.. they've probably thought about the idea.. Like that crazy one about putting guns on the eurofighter. Well we have to give em some chance don't we?! I would have thought it would have taken too much money to do such a scheme. But its upto the MOD in the end. its our money they're wasting. :cool:

[neilk]

It always makes me laugh when this old chesnut comes out, why should the AAC pay crab officers dosh large to do a job we all know that Lcpls can do without too much effort, all you'd get is whining Baggage claiming they are too clever to be Nvs and should be Pilots, just like they do anyway but it will be made 10x worse when the Driver is an NCO, the A*SE Force really do think you need a commission to fly!, Leave the crabs in NRSA land and leave the real Airmen to do the job, just like in 1914

[Flashman]

Woof, Woof :D

[Chinook]

Personally, as an ex gunship driver who has recently spent a few months with navs ....

the job is ideal for a nav .......

trouble is the AAC are too narrow minded to see it ...

ka kite a no eho

[HeliAviator]

Flyingrockdj (or should I say Neil), you should know better than the tripe you have been spouting above. RAF fast jet navs are weapons system operators and navs. Most of them that I have flown with can fly helos to a standard better than that of the average AAC pilot. Having thrown this can of gas on the fire.......I have been a QHI in the AAC for 12 years and in the RAF for almost 3 years...I feel qualified to make this statement. I seems to me the only whining and whinging going on is from the JNCO/SNCO elements of the Corps.

Chinook, say Hi to Bill Jarvis and remind him that he owes me some metal wings!!

Badger

I don't know, but Ive been told, "Air Force Wings are make of Gold"

[neilk]

So do you fly any better with a commission now?, It makes no difference is my point. AAC Aircrewmen when used properly are more than able to use the Apache systems in my humble opinion, I mean it's not as if the US Army requires a degree to fly it! To continue the "we should have the Apache thread" by subtle or other means is quite funny, espec when by the EX AAC "grass is greener on the other side".
brigade.


MORE BANTER PLEASE

[neilk]

And to slag off the standard of AAC pilots when you were on once.........SAD
and having had the task of training those Pilots as a QHI, pretty Sad, or is this more of a reflection on QHI'S and their low(tri service skills)

DISCUSS
:D

[HeliAviator]

FRDJ, chap the phrase "Silk purses from pigs ears" springs to mind. I left because I was unhappy with the standard. Whereas your shooting down the other side of the fence from what perspective/experience?

Badger :rolleyes:

[tgrendl]

Both seats in the aircraft can do both jobs but it is optimized to fly from the back and shoot/nav from the front.

I'm sure there are really excellent tornado navs that could go through the training and take up the front seat in the Apache.

But being able to operate some EW equipment does not an attack helicopter pilot make.

The more important aspect of this pilot is that he can fight the aircraft.

I believe that can only come from experienced helo pilots with the time, background and experience. ;)

[Megaton]

The AAC does not have a history of operating sophisticated weaponry and I would suggest that it would be easier to teach a fast jet nav to stick/throttle an AH-64 than a cab driver to operate a modern wepaons system. True, the US Army employs NCOs in their Apaches but that doesn't neccessarily mean they've got it right. In a previous existence, I was around when the AAC approached the RAF to discuss supporting the ac's EW kit. They had envisaged a team of two to support the numerous parts of the DASS. We pointed out that it took far more to support the less complex Tornado and they were shocked. They were clueless as to the complexity of the systems that they were to inherit.

There is, of course, no reason why a properly trained, educated and skilled NCO should not fly from the front seat. The AAC's approach to flying does not however, IMHO, offer the most efficient or effective use of this platform.

[fone_effect]

This has turned into a right old Ex AAC v Present AAC bun fight come on, put your handbags away.

By the way, Chinook you were a to55er then and you still are.

[rigid_rotor]

Lot of grumpy peeps here! Just how many here are commenting from a knowledgeable position with regard to what a nav could do and what the WAH could do? Surely only someone with that background could comment confidently on the topic? And I dont mean what you have read about the WAH but what you know from having flown it.

Just wondered

:)

[Rotah]

I think that you have all missed the point. We seem to have Navs that are hung up on how competent they really are, honest.... and AAC NCOs who seem to like twisting the AH knife. It isn't about purely delivering HE, or the hands-on flying skills involved, it's about understanding the land environment and then fighting the machine as part of that land battle. Why have the RAF dithered in and out of CAS? Because to gain the situational awareness necessary to provide effective close support, you generally have to understand what is happening around you and then hang around long enough to orientate yourself... one is what the RAF are not educated in, no criticism intended, and the latter is difficult to do at xxx's kts.

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Rotah ]

[KentBrockman]

Ive been reading this with interest, and I agree with Rotah's comments. Its not just a case of zooming in and pressing the tit, and getting back in time for tea and medals. The army fight a land war and the AH is there to fight/support that land war. I was told at wallop that you can teach a monkey to fly given the time, it will be the same with a few buttons. Anyway are'nt we the playstation generation, who better to have firing the bullets and stuff.
I am also unaware of a surplus of Navs in the RAF, or any who would give up there fluffy suits and long careers(last time I heard, they were all banging out cos the RAF was crap), do they think the Army is going to be any better. Less pay, dig in not check in, train them up, three year tour, fly a desk, some career move that will be, imagine how fast they will leave after that. As for heli aviator, Traitor! if you were unhappy with the standard, you should have stayed and improved it, read your comment about a pigs ear etc, perhaps a reflection of your teaching skill? By the sounds of it you have always been a crab, but started off in green. good riddance to bad rubbish. :mad:

edited cos i can (and i hate saying that)

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: KentBrockman ]

[kbf1]

You could always give John Nichol a call, he's not up to much these days :D

Lots of cross slagging going on, nobody has mentioned aptitude selection and retraining of pilots who volunteer for the programme regardless of rank. Wishful thinking I know, but in time I am sure that aptitude tests will be done to assess future front seaters for AH at OASC and through training, with perhaps a stream dedicated to AH WSO.

[64av8or]

As a recently retired Apache Instructor of some experience on both Alphas and Longbows I feel I have the cred to put to rest some of the bull$hit eminating from the darker blue jobs. Heliaviator you are so far out of touch its laughable! Young AAC Pilots today are of a much higher calibre than as recently as 5 years ago. They have an aptitude that suits the modern 3 dimensional battlefield perfectly and do you know what, rank means nothing today as far as ablility and aptitude is concerned; they are all from the same technical generation. So quit the sour and sad grapes its quite pathetic.
The AH training and fielding is proceeding quietly, professionally and will produce high calibre modern AH crews who can operate the Ac effectively from either seat. Fast jet Navs who aspire to upgrade to the AH need to be Pilots first and arguably the reason they are Navs is that they didn't make the grade. Someone correct me if that isn't the case and I will retract.
Time will tell!

[fone_effect]

64av8or
We hear a lot about the diminishing moral within the QHI longbow fraternity. Is this true? If so why?

[You Aint Seen Me. Roit!]

Well said 64 (how is it out there? (MM))

Badger

It seems you havn't changed since you went over to the dark blue side. In other words you're still a to55er.

Speaking as a serving AAC QHI, I'm astounded that you are so happy to openly critisise the standard of AAC Pilots. I have no knowledge or experience of the capabilities of a Fast Jet Nav, so I will not comment on their suitability to move across to the AH, but you are wrong to imply that todays AAC pilot is lacking in ability. How quickly you forget your roots.

You say that you left the Army for the RAF because you had had enough. I thought it was because the AAC wouldn't commision you whereas the crabs would!

[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: You Aint Seen Me. Roit! ]

[neilk]

Here's an idea, lets use AAC aircrew to fly Support Helo's, after all it's all just ash & trash, after all we can use tornado navs then can't we, or am I reinventing a well worn subject, it needs saying tho, then you could stay in the AAC to fly big stuff and there would be nowhere to defect to.

Ding Ding seconds out!!!!!! :eek:

[HeliAviator]

Dear You Ain't seen me....big words from someone so small as to hide their identity. And as if you would know..........Pathetic!

I do not for one second doubt the need for quality pilots in the Corps especially for the AH64 However explain how all but two new blood arrivals from the "school" to Wattashame were graded below average or worse whilst I was there. That is what I base my critisms on. The AH64 is a potent weapon much needed by todays Army, It need however the very best aircrew to get the best out of a limited resource.

As to the small mindedness of SH only flying "ash and trash", DJ, you always were one for a good hook and windup ;) But for those that wish to jump in on what SH can or can't do bandwagon, please reseach the subject. To help you out here are just a few disciplines that are regulary carried out:
Internal loads
Single/tandem/triple underslung loads
Proceedural Instrument Flying
Low flying (naturally - we all do)
Tac fmn
NVG tac fmn
Ship ops
Desert ops
Snow ops
Jungle ops
Winching
Gunnery
ECM
1v1 / 2v1 / 2v2 Fighter evasion

This list in not exhaustive, but he point is you the AAC are good at what you do in your own small sphere of aviation. We are good at what we do in a much larger aircraft in a much larger sphere. Touche!

Badger

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: HeliAviator ]

[neilk]

You must have better QHI'S then.....Rember that given enought time and a limitless amount of bananas.......

[neilk]

And there is only tandem loads, fighter evasion to learn......oh so that's a conversion course then!

[You Aint Seen Me. Roit!]

HeliAviator

I've no need to hide behind an alias

My initials are MM
I'm a SNCO QHI
I'm based at MW
My extension number is 4416

I stand by what I said. What is pathetic is how quickly you forget your roots.

The inferior pool of pilots that you refer to is the same pool that produced you. I would expect you to show loyalty to the RAF, they are after all your employers nowadays, but that does not give you leave to question the ability of those of us that are still here. Or those that are new to the trade.

I wonder how good you were when you started.

[Fishbones]

I gather that an ex Tornado Nav was recently teaching EW & Tactics at Tactics Wing, Wallop with a view to transfering to the AAC, but was prevented by his medical cat. As I understand it he is now flying the Chinook as a pilot.

How do the guys who have been working with the AAC at wallop view this debate? Also, how do the AAC boys who have worked alongside these Navs feel they have helped?

I'm sure that once we dig deeper than single service loyalty and banter, we'll find that a little cross fertilisation can only help. After all, we all work for the same boss. And we would like to be in the best position should any of us be called into action in the near future.

[You Aint Seen Me. Roit!]

Fishbones

I agree whole heartedly. I would imagine that there is an awful lot that we could learn from experienced Navs. Weapons delivery and EW spring to mind as do many other aspects.

The argument here is that at the present moment AAC policy is to operate with two qualified pilots. I have no doubt that there are many Navs who would make excellent pilots, but until they are trained as pilots its a none starter.

I also have little doubt that it won't be long until jointery means that we will all be working together and this debate will gather pace.

Ooh er, imagine that. HeliAviator having to work with us less skilled and less capable Army boys.

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: You Aint Seen Me. Roit! ]

[lou couturn]

Fishbones, I remember a nav at MW in about 96,97 ish who was an absolute star at the EW type of stuff and a very able instructor to boot. The best man for the job, regardless of cap badge (or service), is the way ahead for teaching this type of stuff to those of us (nearly all??) who will require instruction in this field. If I want to know about ship landings I ask the RN, if I need to know about snow survival I ask a RM. YouASMR.......gutsy move! :cool:

[64av8or]

Fone Effect
A difficult question and one not for this forum, you will have to wait for my after dinner speaking circuit!
Moral isn't that bad in the AH world though and I think it is probably a bigger issue across the AAC as a whole.
YASMR, I'm fine thanks, keep the greasy side down now!

[X-QUORK]

HeliAviator,

Are you the chap that flew the Chinook at last years Mass Crash ? If so, I doubt you'll be welcome in the AACA bar next year should you decide to come back.

And if you are that chap....what's with the hair dye ?

Huge apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree, sir.

Regards,

X-Quork.

[Strobin' Purple]

You guys seem to be missing some major points:

1. The FJ world are desperately short of JO navs so where would all these prospective exchange guys come from.

2. If there were any to spare it is unlikely that your average FJ nav would see an AAC exchange on the Apache as much of an 'upgrade' from what he's doing already, and as an officer he'd probably only get a few 100 hrs out of a tour anyway.

3. If he'd have to do a pilot's course then he'd probably want something fast and pointy out of it as, historically, although many have 'failed to make the grade' - 64AV8or's words- the vast majority of ex FJ navs who do pilot crossover training end up back on their original steeds and many go to the single seat world. Not all navigators are failed pilots 64.

In summary then, in AAC hands it's not as attractive a job as you all think it is.

BTW, I'm intrigued, why does it need only 2 pilots? Why not 3 in case the other 2 get it.

[Stalin [Man of Steel]]

Must agree with the above, there simply aren't the Navs spare in the FJ world to take advantage of any crossover. Indeed many are now approaching mandatory retirement, exacerbating the problem. Situation might change a bit when f3 gets phased out, there seems to be many more wacky schemes out there about what do with all those spare WSOs.

[moggie]

My opinion (for what little it is worth) is that it is probably easier and quicker to train a current pilot to operate the nav/weapons systems than it is to train a Navigator to to become a fully fledged helo pilot.

Average pilot training course: 2 to 3 years. Average conversion course to teach weapons/kit/tactics: more like 6 to 9 months (depends how much tactics etc. is done on the squadron).

Put the more experienced/able bloke in the front to enable him to do both jobs and then as the chap in the back gains experience, put him up front. Works well enough with Captain and Co-pilot on fixed wing (e.g. the sort of big, proper bomber we no longer have but that the Yanks do).

Maybe a few RAF ground attack guys on loan could helpm with the inital bringing up to speed - at least they would know how to operate in bad weather (which the Americans appear unable to do). This would surely be more attractive than being a BALO.

And as a final point - I was Leeming when John Nichol was on 11 Sqn and tried to get some value out of his simulator time. The bloke was cr@p (to put it bluntly) and although I am no fan of the Army, I would NEVER wish Nichol upon them!

(Ed: Additional thoughts added)

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[bakseetblatherer]

Just my 2 pence worth
This subject is a moot point. There are no "spare" Tornado Nav's in the RAF. The shortage of fast jet Nav's is worse than the shortage of pilots ( whoops to who ever auth'd all those crossovers to pilot- no more for the forseeable future from the FJ Nav world!). We were briefed that the shortage of FJ Nav's will reach something in the region of 50 to 60% manning on tornado sqns in 2004/5 and will only start to improve as the eurofighter really starts to take over in 2007/8(or later, any bets?). By then the Army will have no need for extra's. Personally I am sorted for the future "do you want fries with that":-)

[TqNrT4NgGreenlightCWP]

came late to this party...

waddya mean, AAC got no experience in weapons from aircraft? we are the ONLY arm in UK service (sorry RM, y'all got absorbed, dincha?) who have experience in direct fire weapons from helos, going back decades. Scout SS11? Lynx TOW? Gazelle SNEB (tee hee)? point has been made already, but the aac are really the only people to operate the beastie. the 'ownership' issue was closed, at the highest level, long before wastelands started cutting metal.

still, enjoying the banter! :D

[Grey Area]

What the Apache needs is well trained, professional, mature aircrew - whatever the source. I hope the new generation AAC aircrew are mature enough to be above the pathetic and childish mudslinging demonstrated by their predecessors above. Whatever happened to reasoned argument? :mad:

[The Pilgrim]

Ditto

[imooshiz]

The real question has to be what are the AAC going to do with all their spare crews once the Apache is given to the RAF, it is only a matter of time!

[neilk]

Grey area, you can't be a frog or you'd br rolling your a**e!, mudslinging, what planet do you inhabit, if the Mud was'nt thown at the Aac in the first place they wouldn't have to throw it back.....its called sticking up for yourselves and your principles....not that a froggie would know about that, bring all the Air corps into the Airforce I say, at least they'd know how to wear their Berets! :D

[Grey Area]

Ribbit, ribbit?

[Mach the Knife]

Ah yes, beret wearing, now there's something to be proud of. Reserved for pond life and rotary crews IMHO (same thing really). Can't beat a nice well worn SD.

[neilk]

But nothing looks quite as stupid with a flying suit, except yer thunderbirds hat

[Tourist]

TqNrEtc you moron
Do you think our RN Lynx just throw harsh language at the enemy. I personally have no worries about you boys getting the apache, better you than the crabs! But I must correct your foolish statement. :mad:

[Strobin' Purple]

Flyingrockdj

Let me explain:

flying suit+SD hat = RAF aircrew mate at home

flying suit+ '
chip-bag' = RAF aircrew mate on det

flying suit + beret = heavily tattooed & foul-mouthed squaddie bloke who's done 6 months at Wallop and Shawbers and who now thinks he is a cross between Wellington and Chuck Yeager, ( he's the 1st bloke to go supersonic - that means faster than the speed of sound, which is about 6 times faster than your Dad's car), and who is proud of his ability to wear a floppy hat. Equally it could also be some RAF SH mate who couldn't find either his SD or Chipbag, to whom I say , stop it you look like squaddies.

BTW, Mach where do fighter mates get their SDs from; Bates only go up to 9 3/4 and Gieves stop at 9 1/2. Just wondered monkeyboy.

Chin chin

SP

[Mach the Knife]

Strobin'
SD usually purchased before training as a Knight of the Sky completed, therefore, no problem finding one to fit. Once trained hat stretches and droops at the sides to fit.

[neilk]

so strobin', does that mean the Army are faster learners?, and no tattos on me matey, nor body piercing!, unlike some Crabbo's me knows.....oooooooyou're all soooo posh in the Air Force. cool answer Mach, did Strobin' wash out of FJ per chance........
:D DISCUSSSSSS!

[Helmut Visorcover]

Strobin, probably makes us closer to being in the military than yourself and your union card. It certainly isn't 1940 you know. I don't care how many times you go up diddly up, up, your all still gits.

Just how many pongo's have you worked with on your planet? Tattooed and pierced we may be but we make do with what is given to us. Hands tied so to speak.

I must say that the likes of TqNrT4Ng are not the voice of the majority so don't tar us all with the same brush jobby.

Variety equals experience in lots of different fields as opposed to I/C pony club and a panache for wearing headdress in an interesting way.

Before you start white noising, I have had the pleasure of working with The Royal Air Force for an extended period of time, a time that was, to say the least interesting. May I compare it to pulling teeth. Good plan, 5hite execution.

Shop floor level (Flt Lt and below, on the whole top blokes) but go above that and the pyramid appears to have the co-ordination of a house brick (apart from Moose that is!)

Strobin, when do you qualify as Firefly/day/VMC and get your wings?

You can't possibly be one of those top blokes who has served in HM Forces for a period any greater than 0.5 with the attitude you have as most of your posts have the slant of a juvenile wannabe with a very thin log book containing mostly civilian marks. :D

[portsmouth346]

No Navs needed while us Aircrewman are still about. Dave, Nick and Dave.

[neilk]

HURRAY!, I knew there were some somewhere!

[Strobin' Purple]

Helmut

Why equate a robust and healthy disregard for anything army (especially air carps) with inexperience? Why wouldn't someone v. close to his pension think that the AAc suck the fat one?

Hey Mach, looks like you've got a new friend in rockdj. He's a gunner. Might give you a few tips on gunnery, you need 'em. Alternatively it's somewhere to park your size 9s.

chin chin

SP

[neilk]

Never a gunner strobin', only the driver!, all you need is a crewman to tweak torque and unwrap the mission mints....ahhhh bliss
Mind you it you can't pass the mints back in an WAH so rendundant (untill needed again)I might pop into Gut in a few weeks, anyone up for an swift ten?

[Helmut Visorcover]

Strobin', I only used to think you were a prick.

;) :p

Flyingrockdj, stop giving the met men so much grief...Tazikstan radio......
:D

[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Helmut Visorcover ]

[JAFG]

At last a word from the mission mint supplier, it seems people forget that half the senior pilots/instructors in the Corps were once Airgunners. Don'y forget your roots. Its the reason why they walk away with all the trophies on the pilots course and funny old thing make beter aircraft commanders.mmmmmmmm.

[The Bonk]

As I put my shaking head in my hands, I wonder why I have to work with attitudes/characters like this? Sometimes I wonder if the hierarchy have got a hope in hell of fielding AH when the shop floor is littered with such small minded dinosaurs. You know who you are....say no, rather than I'll give it my best shot....ask what's in it for me rather than how can I help you? Perhaps, being one of the older in the set I am guilty as obviously I haven't passed on 'words of wisdom' to the new guys as I experienced when I came out of the box.

Don't worry, my coat is in my hand and the taxi has been waiting outside for a long time. There is no heat in the kitchen...in fact I wish there was, coz at least there would be a bit of passion and drive.....

[b34n]

I have come very late to this post...my apols, but sometimes I laugh and sometimes I spit feathers at this topic!!
It has been a bone of contention for a while within the "purple haze".
The facts are that the Army have it, the RAF non pilots would like it (maybe its gonna get them closer to Kate Aidie), and I still get paid the same for whatever I do in the month preceding!
Would any rotary pilot out there flying "ash and trash" like to fly it? if so then just apply to the AAC Im sure there are scores of Army pilots who would swop.
Lets just be getting on with the job we got to do now and stop slagging each other off, jeez I sometimes think we actually like to wind each other up just for a laff!!!

Helmut was right in most of his observations IMHO but let us remember that the Head Honcho for Army Aviation at MW in EW is a very knowledgable and slightly chubby RAF nav!!...He turns out the Army`s EWI`s and a fine breed they are too, but still not as much expertise as the RAF nav!

So if this stops and makes you have a new slant on it then good....if not, then bog off you crab to$$er....!!

[sdoyle]

When I was on Vulcans........... :D

Sorry, I thought I would add this completely spurious post to make this the longest and crappiest thread on the whole of pprune!

Bring back ACM(O) & (G) please, and all who sail in her.

Regards to Dave, Nick and Dave.