Has saluting had its day?

[Yozzer]

Not a troll, but there am I reminising about the days when I enjoyed the RAF cause we had a clearly identified enemy whose ass we knew we could hurt if not kick back to Moscow.

Then I remembered watching a young airman getting rodded out recently by a 2.5 for not saluting, and I made comparisons to black New Yorkers passing high 5s which I also witnessed recently. The differance is little thinks I.

So who invented saluting in the first place? we all know what a salute is meant to be regarding the monarch, but frankly it is a pain in the bum for all concerned.

I believe we do it because Grandfathers generation thought it a top idea, Is there still a place for it in Armed Forces that seem to have binned every other tradition once held so dear to many hearts?

Yozzer

Who normally greets with his forhead! :confused:

[kbf1]

Saluting has 2 historical basis, the first is the palm down salute of the RN (which the Americans bastardised)which originated from raising the corner of the tri-corn hat when passing a more senior officer on deck. This transpired into paying compliments to an officer who had authority vested from the Queen, and thus an expression of loyalty to the Monarch directly in later years.

The Army/RAF salute shows the open palm to prove that there is no concealed weapon and thus demonstrating "friendship". The foreruner to this action was shaking hands. In medieval and Elizabethan times this was done by grasping the fore-arm of the person you greet to determine if they had a concealed weapon and thus intended to do you harm. This was abbreviated to showing the open palm at shoulder or head height, which became a salute.

I find it quite civilised, though it is sometimes a pain, I have to admit (esp when the RSM has a go at me for being to "gash" about it sir!).

[doubledolphins]

Well swipe me. I thought saluting had been banned in the RAF judging by the lack of it that was going on at Uxbridge last week end! Or was it just my dark blue uniform that confused the poor people?
kbf1. Believe it or not the RN did not wear "tricorn" hats as uniform, but "Cocked Hats" or bicorns. Athwart ships for Admirals and Captains, fore and aft for Lieutenants. (At least that was the convention at the time of Trafalgar etc.) Sailors used to "Knuckle their foreheads" and Officers salute by grasping the corner of the hat away from their seniors. Also raising the hat on very formal occaisions.The salute as we know it developed when the people started to have uniform headgear. It was used so a sailor would not have to display a dirty hand to a senior officer. The practice of saluting on the disengaged side went in the early 1900s and the practice of saluting with out a cap was only formaly curtailed by the curent issue of the ceremonial manual. The requirement to raise one's hat to a senior officer when dressed in civvies still exists, though security needs mean that this is most unlikely to happen in a public place. The drill for raising a base ball cap worn astern has therefore not been introduced.

[Jackonicko]

Had always understood that the origins of saluting went much further back - to deliberately raising the visor of a helmet (or removing it altogether) to demonstrate friendship and respect.

[D-IFF_ident]

I noticed that saluting stopped at the gate of an airfield in Oxon for a while during the past few weeks. Although I enjoy the tradition of recognizing the Queen etc, I have never liked the idea of being easily identified by anyone outside a unit.

[Helmut Visorcover]

In answer to the original post, I'm all for saluting. How else can a Royal Pioneer Corps/RLC officer feel like somebody special when in everyday life he would be saying "do want fries with that?". kbf1, steady boy, steady!

Definition of the above commissioned type= someone who has failed police dog selection.

The Army/Navy has traditions, the RAF merely have habits.

We are the armed forces of a great nation, not a corporate conglomerate that needs to advertise. That is an all-together different argument.
:o

[FJJP]

How many more traditions are we to lose? Has not enough been done to turn our fine Armed Forces into a shadow of its former self? Is PC going to kill us off completely? Goodness! We might scrap the concept of wearing uniform - after all, does it not infringe the human rights of the Serviceman by making him wear uniform? Does he not have the right to freedom of expression by wearing civilian cloths which he feels reflects his character?

Those in the Forces must resist destroying any more traditions - if you don't like it then you have every opportunity to withdraw from training when you learn the traditions you are required to follow.

Saluting a pain in the bum? It requires the same effort as raising a pint of beer to your lips.

[Ex F111]

Jackonicko's understanding is {I believe} correct.

Warriors showing that they were unarmed, while raising their helmet face shields etc.


Wasn't it the Romans who saluted with their right hand while travelling on all of the roads that led to Rome. Thus proving that the original road rules required foot traffic, gladiators and charoits to keep to the left!.


Obviously throught the years, some inrerpretations have been added, both in salutations and road rules.

Spelling Again!!

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: Ex F111 ]

[doubledolphins]

All this talk of raising visors is correct but of course if you had a "full helmet" you had to take it off, this is where we get the idea of raising hats from in the first place. The salute purely being the military version of hat raising. As I have stated earlier the Albert raised hats as well. As to the idea of not wearing uniform, I think you might find that the Geneva Convention has somthing to say about that! Though I do Know an old gentleman (RNVR) who flew a Swordfish from MAC ships with the Title "MERCHANT NAVY" painted on the side of his aircraft. He wore dog robbers under his flying clothing on the grounds that if fished out of the oggin by a german he wpould end up in a better class of prison camp. Of course if he had reached enemy held land he would have been shot!

[kbf1]

Do you want fries with that mate? You can go large for an extra 50p!

Sorry HV, just reverting to type. :eek: Still, we always know that the light-blue bereted types can sweep the floor for us, as that is, after all, a bit beneath the trucking master-race. :D

By the way... I would have passed the police dog selection if only I were flexible enough to bend over and lick my own balls. c'est la vie!

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]

[Yozzer]

Some interesting replies for which I thank you. I believe that the gate guards are briefed not to salute anybody, though the staishes car usually manages one, and in field conditions / operational sites, you do not salute. Rumour has is that no officer at High Wycombe gets a salute unless he has stars on the car, though that sounds like pants. Which raises the question:

As we no longer jowst (s?) and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?

After all, our army brethren insist on wearing camouflaged rank that you can never see until its too late, and is not the AAC the most junior of all services? ..and for Helmut, is not Westlands finest the Wessex??

God knows how many WO2 get saluted and Majors that do not! What would be the consequence for a genuine objector to the monarchy who refused to oblige, (in this day of euro rights etc) All hypothetical, but I have learnt a bit from this thread which made getting out of bed this morning worthwhile. :rolleyes:

[Touchin' Down]

Agree that it shoud stay. Reference the note about energy being the same as lifting a pint of beer to your lips, I note many a airman crossing the road to avoid having to salute! Quite amusing really!

[Mystic Greg]

YH,

The rumour you have heard about High Wycombe is untrue - the place is 'saluting city'. I speak from current personal experience.

[Mmmmnice]

As was touched on earlier - if you don't like rules of the club you can always go back to making up B*g M*cs. The sooner they get rid of cheap online time and stamp out this twoddle the sooner we can get back to civilised exchanges with the sort of gent that has a private income (cavalry not t**ny w**ny) chew on that one and all baaaaaaaaah :eek:

[kbf1]

Yozz. the easy way to get round the DPM rank slides bit it to look at the cap-bADGE. If it is made of metal then it is being worn by a non-commissioned rank. If it is embriodered (like a mini-blazer badge)then it is being worn by an officer. As a rule of thumb, if the officer is more than about 5 years older than you, chances are he is a "sir". I have to admit though, the RAF WO can look like an officer from a distance in a chip-bag as the badges are almost the same (if not actually). That still would not be the case in the brown warrior master-race as WOs still wear the same cap bades as the soldiers.

[Helmut Visorcover]

kbf, now I'm confused?!? What about The Parachute Regiment's cap badge? Should I not salute anybody?!? Should I salute everybody in the Really Large Corps with a blazer badge on their head? Please advise. :confused:

Yozz, irony dear chap with ref. to Westlands finest.

:rolleyes:

[Samuel]

I had a Direct Entry Trick Cyclist on my RNZAF Staff course (senior Flt Lt) who had wings from the (then)policy of teaching such chaps to fly in order to better understand his role, and who I noted one day on leaving the Mess that he had A W/O's hat! I asked him how long he had been wearing "that hat"and he said, "since I joined. Why?"

"Get many salutes?"

" No, but come to think of it I get some strange looks!"

[mrfish]

Sounds like Kev doesn't it!

In the last 13yrs there has been only one RNZAF trick cyclist with wings....although there have been many of the 'winged demi-gods' with trick cyclists on their chests!

Its my 1st date as a civy today...quite like it really....1st monday in a while with a hangover that would kill a donkey.

Salutely? Whats that? Used to see it in the RN, but not in NZ. At my leaving medical the young AC WAAF called me "mate".... then gave me a good listening to. Many junior officers seemed somewhat amazed that I made an issue of it...... and with that attitude I would expect that we may as well combine the Officers, SNCOs and ORs Messes and be done with the whole thing. Perhaps we can all be pilots too? Or at least all have wings?

Maybe we should get rid of the aircraft too? Oh, no, we've already done that! Good job, a step in the right direction.

Baagh humbug.

[BEagle]

Isn't it the Luftwaffe who have virtually dispensed with hats (and the associated requirement for saluting) except on formal occasions? All RAF aerodromes have a ban on wearing hats as soons as you pass the 'manoeuvring area' signs - we used to have an ar$e of a WO who hated the fact that nobody wore hats between the car park and the sqn building (since both were on the manoeuvring area), but the F/O's junta soon put him right about that! Nobody bothers with the neck-wrenching 'eyes right' salute-without-hat equivalent that you used to see Dickie Attenborough doing in 'Guns at Batasi' - we usually just exchange a polite 'Good Morning', although some people are rude enough just to ignore anyone they encounter.......

[Roland Pulfrew]

Yozzer

"As we no longer joust and aircrew rarely wear uniform anyway (SES is just that SES, not uniform, and yes I am aircrew) if we kissed off the whole idea tomorrow, would it be missed?"

I beg to differ old chap. Those who fly the sharp pointy steads are for ever saying how much they enjoy aerial jousting (combat)! Even our multi engine bretheren claim to enjoy the jousting that is air-to-air refuelling!!

As for flying clothing being just SES I think you will find you are wrong. Flying clothing, at least in the RAF, is now No 14 Uniform! Something to do with being in uniform if captured in combat I believe!!!!

I for one think that saluting has a place in the modern military. PC should not force us to dump all our traditions. IMHO those who do not bother, and those who do not correct those who do not bother, are all symptomatic of everything that is going wrong with the military today - laziness and a lack of personal standards?

And it really annoys me that large empires, like that just off the Bristol Ring Road, declare themselves to be a no hat no saluting area. Is it that difficult to pay compliments?

Lights blue touch paper and retires....

[kbf1]

HV...Ignore the meatbombs, after throwing themselves out of aircraft and landing on their heads a few times, they wouldn't notice. Indeed you should salute everyone in the Rusting Lorry Club, neigh, you should bow down in supplication at your masters feet daring not to raise your eyes to the glories that behold you in the presence of those of us who walk in the light. Advice given. :D

[Dusty_B]

kbf: You might get someone caught out there... All RAF cap badges are now embroidered!
And as for the RN hats, spot the difference: they have shiney peaks. In Army and RAF, only the ranks have shiney peaks - officers hats are material. Perhaps that's why they're not instantly recognised on land!

[Hengist Pod]

Saluting. What a bag of boll0cks that is. Even worse is when the tw@t says thankyou for it. Thanks for what? As a rule I avoid saluting at all costs by wearing a hat as little as I can or riding a bike. If I am forced into waving at some tosser just because he went to Sleaford tech I make damn sure he/she can tell from my facial expression that I resent every second of it. "Oh, but it's the Queen's Commission that you're saluting," they say. So f*cking what? I'd hardly describe myself as a staunch royalist.

Vive la revolution, power to the people and yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder about this. Why can't we just say hello? Tradition doesn't help me do my job any better.

[Blue Stuff]

Hengist,

Are you a wind-up? I infer from your derogatory and un-enlightened post, that you harbour a general dislike of officers. You may be surprised to learn that I do not gain a feeling of power, nor personal satisfaction from being saluted.

What do you hope to achieve by "avoiding saluting at all costs"? Are you a conscientious objector? :rolleyes:

Going back to Yozzer's question, yes - you wave at "some to$$er" in recognition of the Queen's Commission. If you have a problem with that, then you shouldn't have joined, 'cos we all swore the same oath of allegiance; royalism has nothing to do with it. Whatever you think of the Sleaford Tech output, them's the rules: we salute, and it is right that we do it. Does throwing one up really make you feel so inferior that you have to "make damn sure he/she can tell from my facial expression that I resent every second of it"?

Grow up.

Blue.

[edited for puur spilling]

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Blue Stuff ]

[Samuel]

Ok, time for a bit of fundamental common sense methinks! While we don't want to return to a 1745 Directive which ordered," men not to pull off their hats when they pass an officer, or speak to him, but only to clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by", we should continue to acknowledge the salute as representative of the oldest traditions of the military, which should never be confused with a servile act.

The salute and other military compliments have their own raison d`etre. They encourage a proper pride in the uniform, they effectively combine the needs of a disciplined force with the respect due to superiors, and at the same time elevate the airman in his own eyes by reminding him that he is a member of a professional body.

Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.

[KentBrockman]

does having a commision make an officer superior? Perhaps a bit more information at the careers office and not some posh school and we might have a few more "superiors" ambling along.

And i thought it was weapons that made an armed force, not crispy uniforms, otherwise we had better watch out for the brownies and girl guides.

[Helmut Visorcover]

Sam,

<Dump the salute by all means. Then the uniform. Then you can turn up for duty if an when you feel like it. Then you become a rabble, not an armed force.>

Hey, I do that anyway! Im not a rabble!

But seriously. I've been in long enough to be able to salute without resenting the fact. Just upbrining I suppose?

Top tip, respect is earned not demanded. That poo poo's me off a tad when I'm told I should respect and be loyal to some total tool just cos he has an NVQ in underwater soot juggling! I respect a LEADER because he can LEAD. Need I go on?

Na, it's Saturtag and I have more interesting things to do with my Spaniel.

[kbf1]

Hengist, would you rather be told to f&^%$ off by an officer returning a salute? I would suggest if you resent having to salute that your resentment runs further than the act itself, and scrapping saluting would not resolve that issue. Next will be scrapping the officer's mess, calling officers "sir" and every other vestige of rank. Then perhaps you will be happy?

[Samuel]

Kent, you haven't the faintest notion of what the term "superior" means in military parlance; and no, being a commissioned officer does not make one superior, merely privileged.

Helmut, I suspect you to be a master at devil's advocation, but if you are genuinely resentful of saluting then a body exists which doesn't have to; they are called civilians.

You are however, absolutely correct in respect having to be earned. Sadly, there will always be those who can't appreciate that fact.

[HEIGHTSGOODBACK5]

SUPERIOR?? I thought officers were actually senior not superior.To one and all who can even be bothered to get hot under the collar on this subject......
I SALUTE YOU ALL!!!!!!! :eek:

[Kaa050]

I once had an Airman Charged, for not saluting! Church Fenton 1988.

I was an APO, He was a Cpl:

He said: "I don't have to salute you, Cos, you are ONLY a student"

I said: "Do you recognise rank Cpl"?

Cpl: "Yes Sir, but I don't have to salute you, because you're only a sudent pilot"

Me: "Do you recognise me as an officer?"

Cpl: "Yes"

Me: " I'm Going to charge you........."

As It Should Be.


Kaa

[Yozzer]

Kaa050

If you were a "real" officer then debate would never have got to this stage, as it happens you tell a tale which justifies the thread. Since starting this thread I have read with interest the various responses and had plenty of time to consider my own opinion.

There are senior officers who I salute with sincere admiration for their leadership. Note that Queenie does not feature here, but discipline and respect does.

Sadly a trend of late has been for the good guys to leave, which leaves us lead by more than one to55er. I salute these people because convention says that I must, but a smart salute accompanied by the time of day regardless of personal opinion.

If I had witnessed to scene that Kaa050 mentioned, they I would have given up.

Similaritiies can be drawn with perm staff at Finningley and now Cranwell calling SNCO FTS students "Plastic". I once saw an ex Cpl RAFP acting Sgt student direct a JT straight to the guardroom without further debate, and the shockwave through the unit lasted a long time. Standing arguing about whether a salute is justified, You "Sir" (Kaa050) did NOT deserve it!

Yozzer

PS

The JT had to write a formal letter of apology to the Sgt by way of "settlement". The Sgt was "asked*" if such a response would satisfactorily avoid formal charge proceedings. *Read as directed

[Blue Stuff]

HEIGHTSGOODBACK5,

Damn right. What's your name, soldier? We need more of your type! :D


Samuel, Helmut, Yozzer et al,

Here, here. Compliments should be paid irrespective of what one thinks of the recipient. Going through IOT, we saluted some absolute imbeciles (but a hell of a lot more good guys), but we did it without distinction . As Sam says, the reason should be pride, self-discipline and professionalism. As to respect - well, there are lots of ways of saying "Sir", all with their own meaning, if you get my drift.

Personal respect must indeed be earned through actions, but the respect shown through the paying of compliments must reflect something else. Otherwise, to take an extreme example, we would all have walked past a number of very senior officers involved in a certain helicopter accident enquiry, with our hands firmly in our pockets. Yozzer - I think we'll have to agree to disagree over the 'Queenie issue'! :p

As to Kaa050's episode at Fenton, it sounds as if both parties should have acted differently. Charging somebody for failing to salute is rather harsh, although as Roland Pulfrew suggested earlier, failure to do anything would send out the wrong signals. I dunno - I'm still a very shiny new ossifer; what would you oldies have done?

Regards,

Blue.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

To those of you who don't like it, what's the big deal with saluting? It's a small bit of tradition and a demonstration of respect to the Monarch (yes, even President Blair). IMHO, those who waste time arguing the case for binning saluting don't deserve to call themselves military.

PS. Any airman who trys to argue the case with me having to failed to salute a Commissioned Ofiicer will be charged.

[Helmut Visorcover]

Sam, wrong end of the stick, mate. I have no probs with saluting. It's one of the few traditions we have left in the Armed Forces!

[Samuel]

KAA, there are (nearly) always alternatives to charging people, though in your case and at that point in time, you probably hadn't grasped that fact!You might have gained considerably more respect for your APO rank had you taken the trouble to explain why he was wrong.

Blue Stuff correctly observes that there is more than one way to skin a cat in respect of showing displeasure with some of the ladder climbers and incompetents. Subtle nuance with the word "Sir', and an ever so slight exagerration of a salute were my personal favourites. But then I had "Doesn't suffer fools gladly" written on every annual report I had, all but one of the 25!

Helmut, no offence intended mate!

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Samuel ]

[PowerRanger]

Gees! Is this all you cabbage-kitters have got to worry about right now??

Saluting is a military reality. Those of you who don't like it - deal with it or seek alternative employment.

Those who do like it stop trying to justify something that, in the present climate, actually isn't terribly important.

Did any of you ever wonder why the military is so regularly satirised?? :rolleyes:

[fobotcso]

Take it easy PR! These guys can't talk about the "hard stuff" here and it's interesting to get the views of the different Services. The thread's got a lot more mileage than I would have thought.

I can link Kaa's post and Samuels reply.

In my Off Cdt days a course mate walked (marched) past the Stn Cdr who had more rows of medals than the whole of today's Army, Navy and AF Boards put together. He forgot to salute. The Gp Capt called him back and gently explained the error of my chum's ways and went on his way.

The whole event was watched by the SWO who stopped my chum and said "Thank your lucky stars you didn't do that to an Acting Pilot Officer!"

Towards the end of my 30+ years, I took a dislike to the process of saluting between junior officers and Major/Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr equivalents. Often they were doing the same job on level terms. It seemed like an unnecessary anachronism.

[neilk]

You really are a pompous bunch of A**ses, I have never heard such guff in all my sheet changing. People get saluted for holding a commission, if the degree of smartness at which it was delivered was indicative of how much RESPECT their was for the receipient you lot would get an Ugandan Sewage Corps limp wrister.
You need a few years in the ranks to teach you lot a few things!

FALL OUT, end of bo99icking :confused:

[HeliAviator]

Saluting is part of military ethos. Respect has to be earned, it does not come with the commission. Look after your blokes and they will (might) respect you. For once FRDJ, we agree, one more spicey old chap, hic!

[Felixmini]

Kaa050. You don't deserve to have those tabs on your shoulder. A similar thing happened to me, the poor s0d was confused, but i let it pass. Charging him isn't the way to go about it. every day when i cycle home, squaddies don't salute, but do i care? As long as i get a 'evening sir' or recognsion i'm there its alright.

The whole business about saluting, yes its had its days, but i think it should only be kept for formal use.

If you want to be saluted, and your but officially kissed, then go to RAF Cosford, or Halton. They'll do it all day long.

Regards
Felix

[FJJP]

Saluting is a mark of respect for the Monarch. Like it or not, those who wear uniform accept the 'Queen's Shilling' (and if you don't understand what that means, get your heads into military history).

I accept that not everybody in the Armed forces is a raging Royalist. But those who do not believe in the Monarchy IMHO should not be wearing uniform. The Forces are being civilianised left right and centre, to the extent that now we are having to call up reservists for the most minor skirmish.

However, I am uncomfortable working alongside those who have no respect for our Head of State. The debate about getting rid of traditions is reaching silly proportions, and the danger is that if enough people winge and moan about them, some pratt at high level will take it as a good idea and kill off yet more traditions that go towards making us the finest Armed Forces in the world - still. We may not have the best kit or enough money, but whenever we are tasked with a job it is always done well.

We still have a world class reputation, so can we please stop trying to tear apart what little we do have left.

End of rant.

:eek: :( :mad: :mad:

[Felixmini]

Fair comment. Explains all really. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DP Harvey]

FM, its not within your prerogative to overlook military indiscipline. If you are not saluted (and mean you, the holder of a commission) you ought to do something about it, rather than shrug it off.

Those personnel who do not salute you might not share your ideals about salutation. You are setting a bad example by accepting indiscipline. I'm not suggesting that a charge sheet entry is the answer, but a timely reprimand usually suffices.

[Felixmini]

But with all due respent my friend, if in the same situation as i am, you'd probably think the same thing. Ok, i know its wrong for me not to bollock the life out of aircrew for not saluting, but in the end, its a gesture, thats all saluting is. We;re all one community in the end. I do agree with that it is respect for the monarch, and yes the commision shows i'm working for the queen, but everyone who salutes you or i is only saluting the commission that we all share. i'm not saying that its wrong for people to put there flat palm up to there eye brow, but in the end we're all serving the queen. Plus... do you know how hard it is for someone to salute while riding a bike?? I'm new to riding ( yes i know its wierd... being able to fly millions of £ worth of airplane but not a bike, but we have to learn some how) and i'd rather not let go if you know what i mean. But when walking around, i get salutes, lots of em, but the occasional one i do have to remind, but i don't get down there throats about it.
i do have mixed feelings about the subject, as since rolling out of IOT and having your first salute by those arses that have shouted at you for months does have an effect on ones self asteem. But if we all keep at it, as many of others have said, its kept a tradision that the British forces has kept since the begginning. Keep up the good work everyone, and i hope this doesn't get too out of hand.
Sorry to have got on your t1ts.
Felix

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

fm, would you classify yourself as an Officer?

[Felixmini]

A commission, and a blue uniform say i am. I've already had it harsh from everyone who's emailed, i don't need another thankyou.
Felix

[Felixmini]

Mr. SATCO, you've probably got different opinions on the subject, but let me have mine.

You've got a pretty cool job...you like it right?
I like and love mine. so why do we have to start an arguement?
:)
-'I Hope no one else is offended by my' comments-
Felix :)

[neilk]

There is nothing persay wrong with saluting it's just this "I am cool I charged someone "attitude which is pompous, the good thing is that military law has made such piffling charges unsustainable on orders so no jumped up little jerk can pull such infantile behavior on an "other rank".
Respect earned, remember that gents, and also the case off a very pompous artillery officer who on his day of leaving the Queens service was pursued by a bod who felt hard done by with regards to a "little charge" instigated by said Officer to wit a duffing up followed, respect does follow you outside, I love reunions when some bod from lower down the food chain thanks a former OC and means it, it doesn't mean you have to toady to the guys, just be fair and decent

[Udeski]

Charging an airman for not saluting is infantile! So when would you charge?! I agree that not every occasion demands a charge, most do not, but remember that (in Kaa's case) our cpls have served for at least half a dozen years, in most cases many more, before they get their tapes, and should know better. Kaa's cpl was trying it on and he was absolutely right to charge him.

To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline. Why? The 252 is there to be used, why not use it? Why shy away from charging if an airman has done wrong? The Orderly Room procedure is a deterrent in itself, not only to stop potential perpetrators but also colleagues of the perpetrator who see him being dealt with publicly. This view is not based on 2 minutes service, 16 years and most as an OC.

As for FM, words fail me. Good question SATCO, it's his attitude that can give our aircrew a 'gash' label (that and walking around with hands in pockets all day). Aside from the importance of saluting that have already been identified, saluting and other traditions are what set us aside from civvy street. Long may it and they stay.

[neilk]

And you wonder why people leave the Air force!
If you charge any member of the Armed forces with anything now he/she can demand higher trial, if one of you nonces charged me I would go for a Court Marshall as we know that the armed forces are hardly going tio let that hit the news stands. get with the new millenium guys or get walking. To read such purile opinions of the gentry is quite an eye opener

It could only happen in the Air force

[Udeski]

DJ

How wrong you are! One of my airmen did exactly that after being charged for a trivial but repeated offence. He withdrew his option for trial by Court Martial 4 months later when he realised it would cost him over a grand and he would still be found guilty and given an appropriate punishment!

What has the 21st century got to do with it? I don't remember being briefed that charges went out of the window with the new millenium. Good-discipline is fostered in many ways, one of which is an effective detterent, which in this case is the Orderly Room and appropriate punishment.

You REALLY think people are leaving the Service because they've been charged?! Put it another way though, if someone does leave the Service for that reason, then good. I wouldn't want to serve with anyone with such poor respect for discipline and loyalty.

[TimC]

Someone (think it was kbf1) mentioned that army officers have embroidered cap badges and non commissioned types have metal ones.

In my regiment (RSignals TA), the RSM and his TA equivalent both wear embroidered cap badges. In my experience (limited), it is a very bad idea to salute either of these two fellows. The RSM, in particular, scares the **** out of me :D.

[Samuel]

Udeski: Deterrent has two "t's" and I bet your troops simply adore you for instilling so much doubt and insecurity on their abilities.

[Oh I See]

Udeski

“To follow the theme on, we in the RAF do not charge enough. We far prefer to keep it in house using alternative methods to discipline.”

Let us go a little further then, how about comparing damage to Mess fixtures and fittings compared with damage to same in NAAFI bar by respective members. I know one will result in the use of a 252 but what of the other.

[Udeski]

Thanks for pointing out the typo, Samuel (spelt correctlt further up you'll notice). I am not het here to be adored, I am here to get the best out of my troops. Upholding discipline has nothing to do with 'instilling so much doubt and insecurity on their abilities'. You've misunderstood my point.

Oh I See: I agree, double standards are abhorrent and only serve to foster a sense of 'us & them'.

[Felixmini]

Udeski - What do you think i do all day?? walk round with my peak off to one side, hands in pockets and waving to everyone as a strole home.. Get the facts right. The only time i see people at NCO or squaddy level is on the way home. We run i tight ship, and in the end the RAF is a team, we shouldn't be charging people for not saluting. As DJ said, they can take you to court. Whats the point in us all doing this when we're all working as one? I'm not sure what branches you're all in, but depending on which ones you're in calls for a bit more discipline. True? I thikn that a grudging reminder should be called for, and if they carry on, then a charge. And if you feel like it ...maybe a bollocking by there OC.
:) :)

[Felixmini]

Udeski - What do you think i do all day?? walk round with my peak off to one side, hands in pockets and waving to everyone as a strole home.. Get the facts right. The only time i see people at NCO or squaddy level is on the way home. We run i tight ship, and in the end the RAF is a team, we shouldn't be charging people for not saluting. As DJ said, they can take you to court. Whats the point in us all doing this when we're all working as one? I'm not sure what branches you're all in, but depending on which ones you're in calls for a bit more discipline. True? I thikn that a grudging reminder should be called for, and if they carry on, then a charge. And if you feel like it ...maybe a bollocking by there OC.
:) :)

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

The only time i see people at NCO or squaddy level is on the way home

[Hengist Pod]

Rusedski - you are a tw@t. I'm not an officer but I work all day, every day with them, betting my life on them as they do me. None of them get called sir or saluted and none of them address me by my rank - but we get the job done and I bet we do it a sight better than you. Wake up and realise that your lot went out with the ark. It's a team effort, a team of which you are not a member.

[ozy_rotorhead]

This information is for any enlisted personnel who don't like saluting (I am enlisted so don't get pissed at me). There are two parts to a salute, the subordinate initiates it and the senior officer returns it. It is not just enlisted personnel who salute officers, junior officers salute as well. The important part is that the salute is returned in due recognition and respect of the subordinate's position and rank. There are no orders in any Commowealth force that I am aware of that prevent enlisted personnel from saluting each other as well. Although this is not common, it is not unknown.

Without traditions and a past, we simply become civvies in uniform.

[Samuel]

Couldn't have put it better myself Hengist.

I had given some thought to how people with such attitude actually survive, but decided it was rather pointless.

Nice one.Well said!

[Udeski]

Samuel and Hengist

If you're going to make ignorant remarks then at least give yourselves a chance by reading other's messages carefully. I'm sure you work very well with officers, Hengist, isn't that what good SNCOs are supposed to do, whether flight deck or otherwise? But you lose all credibility by ranting that you work better than me! How can you possibly offer an opinion either way?! As far as your weak argument's concerned, I'm very well aware of flight deck protocols and that rank awareness is left on the ground. I am also aware that discipline is just as tight whether between Capt and Co or officer and SNCO. You refer to a totally different environment to that on which the initial theme was based ie has saluting 'generally' had its day? The answer is, of course, no and if a jnr rank did not acknowledge the Queens Commission as I passed, flight deck or otherwise, I would correct the error as it is my duty to do so. That does not put me in the dark ages and I can assure you that upholding regulations and traditions did not 'go out with the ark'. We are not in a flying club, we are a military service and, sorry to say, some airmen, SNCOs and officers need to be reminded of that.

FM: Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Udeski, you get my vote. There seems to be a significant amount of ill-informed comment here. To clarify my point of view:

I command a squadron of some 63 military personnel. They range in age and experience: Warrant Officers with more time in the RAF than I have been alive; junior officers barely out of their nappies; airmen/airwomen under the age of 20 (5 of which are under the age of 18). I would like to think that this squadron works as a team, maintains the right level of respect and is well disciplined. Furthermore, I can guarantee that each and every one of them knows why we have traditions and customs such as saluting.
What I can also say is that these personnel thrive on the predictable structure and ethos offered by the military. However, what the more junior individuals have greater difficulty with is the apparant double standards and break down in the chain of command. It is often the airmen who have problems with ill-disciplined officers.
As for that "all of one team" stuff, I couldn't agree more. However, we don't have to be chummy to be an effective team.

PS. For the record, I am an air traffiker and you will never find a 'flatter' hierarchical structure than within an ATC tower. Take a look and you will often see sgts instructing flt lts and the occassional sqn ldr. This does not stop any of us from adopting the appropriate manner and bearing outside of our immediate working environment.

PPS. I vowed not to get dragged into this argument. Guess I failed!
:D :D :D

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]

[Tiger_mate]

Quote:

Just in case you ever actually command men instead of just a machine, let me put your mind at rest. Airmen who have been charged cannot opt to take you to court! They can opt for trial by DCM!! You made my evening when I read that!

I know a Wing Commander that backed down after a letter from a solicitor threatening litigation against him as an individual.

He was exercising Air Force Law to the letter without an iota of common sense involved. Air Force Law (AFL) is not worth the value of the paper that it is written on nowadays and should be cancelled in toto, or rewritten to modern legal practices.

The individual concerned did take the civil case that the Wg Cdr was intruding into to civil court, and won the case. Good job then that the Wg Cdr did back down for he was next on the list.

The case would have gone further, I know, I was that man.

I think most of us agree that PC has gone too far, you cannot even have a "black" coffee nowadays, but I would advise caution when getting involved in any legal case, for QRs and AFL will not protect you.

T_M

[Samuel]

Udeski, if you read my earlier posts you will find that I agree with you on the saluting, but not on the threats. Whether your intention is to do so or not, you come across in your writing as being slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun.

There are ways and means of running units with large numbers of very senior nco's and very inexperienced younger airmen and women, without developing an attitude problem, either up or down.

I guess it's called management.

[BEagle]

Hmm - fancy a bit of heel-clicking and a formal straight-armed 'Gruss' me'self.

Not really!!

In fact the vast majority of people have no problem with this tradition - unless it's some grumpy old $od who doesn't even return a verbal greeting. I think it's best for the 'salutee'(i.e. senior person) to make eye contact and acknowledge the presence of another human being before the 'technical' saluting exchange takes place as that stops silly 'long range saluting' or the converse 'selective myopia' - and it really shouldn't be too much to expect that the
exchange is accompanied by a friendly manner on behalf of both parties. Back in 1969 we were expected to salute fellow officers of the same rank on first meeting them in the morning! And a certain, b£oody nice Wg Cdr even remembered the old tradition of saluting when leaving my office the other week after coming to see me about something - just as I would do on leaving the Fg Off JEngO's office.

Remember the days when we ALL saluted on entering morning met brief??

[ozy_rotorhead]

In the end it is simply a matter of respect being shown between the ranks. If you don't like the military system, exercise your freedom and vote with your feet. I wouldn't pass an officer without saying hello, so why not salute as well. As the saying goes, the army didn't join you, so ****** off.

[Didntdoit]

BEagle

We are not of the same, but we are the same! It's ironic that this thread has, like many others that start on non-flying topics, degenerated into a slanging match, with insults and postering.

I find it sad really that some posters who are quite happy to take certain elements of military life (the pluses), have a real problem with some of the trivial minuses. Saluting. Something worthy of such debate? Pay? Yes. Living conditions? Yes. Overstretch? By all means. But saluting? I'm not so much staggered by the unwillingness to do it, because I see that every day. But what saddens me is the posturing - those that think they are so 'well 'ard' because they are not professional enough to translate their profesionalism in the working environment to that outside. Additionally, at risk of generalising, it would appear that those who do not actually have to 'lead', 'manage' and 'develop' personnel are very quick to expouse on the merits (or not) of discipline and the MAFL. When some of you have walked in the shoes of those who have to deal with personnel (not just on the way to/from work), give them as hard a time as you want. Until them, your pond is not very deep.

On KAA's question, a few years ago, I had to read a charge of one of my JNCOs, who was charged by the Stn Cdr for failing to play compliments. Now, the CO was not a Scottish Gp Capt-type and we were at the hover base off the A1 in the early 90s. Those of you there at the time will recall that said CO was a particularly easy-going bloke, for example, his ideas on dress in the mess were particularly enlightning. We digress. He did charge the cpl for not saluting per se, but more for being dim. You see, he drove past the bloke, flag waving, etc, and saw no salute. So, he had the driver pull over, so as the cpl could catch up. Catch up he did, but the cpl walked straight past. At this point, to CO called him back. The cpl turned around - still no salute (picture the scene, just past the airmen's mess, streets not empty, car with flag, occupant in rear seat with gold braid on cap peak - alarm bells should be ringing here). The CO said something like, "not very awake today, are we, cpl"? Still no salute. It was at this point that the CO, having given him a number of opportunities to save himself, made the guy aware of the error of his ways, told him what he expected of JNCOs, and took his ID card. Like I sid, not really for being indisciplined, but more for being stupid. In sum, KAA, IMO, gave the guy an out, which was declined. Cannot see how he would have had another option, particularly as there was a fair chance that the guy's CO may well have been one of those 'get back in yer box APO, types!

The saddest reflection of all is that this thread has attracted so much negative comment and more debate than other topical threads. Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.

I'll get me coat, hat and scarf. :(

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: Didntdoit ]

[Tiger_mate]

Didntdoit said:

Some have said that if you cannot deal with the military bit, then leave. IMHO, it is the fact that so many see it as not a military outfit (in all forms), that they are leaving.

Beg to differ on that one, Quality of life, financial restraint, and leaders lining their own nest are the subjects I hear about in crewrooms. Along with too much licence talk, and Geographical stability, or rather lack of it.

Lack of promotion to deserving cases across the full spectrum of the RAF is a major cause for concern and with good reason.

Taceval city in RAFG had good quality of life, a sense of purpose, and mutual respect across the full (Station) team, and despite the wailing minis at 4 in the morning, Morale was superb. It has gone, and without major changes in policy, will never return.

I`ll get back in my box now.

PS

BZN today, WTF was driving the Antonov with Air Rage :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Didntdoit]

Tiger Mate,

Let me elaborate. When I said not military, I should have added, 'with purpose'. I totally agree with you, we were focused then, with a sense of purpose, and all the 'military' blah came naturally. We are not now, in part due to the reasons that you highlighted.

I'll take your differ and agree with it.

Weren't a Tiger in 87 were you, per chance?

[Tiger_mate]

>>Weren't a Tiger in 87 were you, per chance?

I do believe that I was

T_M

[Didntdoit]

Ah, soz - mis-ident, you'll be the rotary flavour. I was on the outfit with the J's.

Where is that stone?

[Tiger_mate]

Getting warmer. Montijo TM One of your peers (Blonde Nav) "saluted" by a bullock yearling who showed him no respect at all.

Causing open lacerations above his eye with his horn

Believe you had a good boss at the time who now enjoys his flying far too much
<Que Green face> and thoughts of Corsairs

Laugh! I nearly paid my mess bill :)

[EESDL]

I didn't think Tiger Mates liked it around Montijo way......didn't they run out of fuel?
No valid point to make, just a feeble link to that part of Portugal..and I know you were talking about a couple of years earlier...we did giggle, however, when we read the incident report in a Dungannon ISO!

[BEagle]

Ah - 74(F) with the F4J!! Now there was a unit with esprit-de-corps which really was the dog's whatsits! And that from someone who was earlier on 56(F)!!

We tanked the 3rd lot of 'Js' back from Miramar and North Island back in Oct/Nov '84 - what an excellent trip that was! But what miserable git stopped the Tigers wearing their Spam 'flight suits' and skid-lids?

[Didntdoit]

The miserable git was - the SCREAMING SKULL. Rule number one - never let someone take over a Station from someone he hated!

Best year in the Firm that was, with the J's. BEagle, you are right, the Boss at the time was a top bloke. Espirit de Corps? Bang on! To get back on topic - no one on the sqn had a problem using the term 'Sir' (although 'Boss' or trigraph were just as appropriate) or indeed throwing them up, when appropriate.

Like T_M said, there was morale around at the time.

Didn't do Montijo, but the blonde nav I remember!

[MajorMadMax]

...wasn't this thread about saluting?? :p

From someone who's been on both sides of the salute (was prior enlisted), I never had a problem saluting the "O's". Growing up as an Army brat, I knew it was a sign of mutual respect (as it supposively originated between knights). When I had a mere couple of stripes on my sleeve I was more offended by the officers that would try to avoid saluting (dashing across the street when they saw the opportunity). It used to **** us off so much we'd actually merge on these clowns and force them to salute anyway. Now I am a crusty old mustang, I get riffed when I see a sloppy salute or, as required by USAF customs and courtesies, no "verbal greeting". Again, it is an exchange of mutual respect, and when I show more respect than the three-striper with less than four years in service something is wrong.

OK, I will admit I am probably more anal about this than most, but I believe in military tradition (even in the Air Force). I've noticed in the multinational environments I've worked in many other nations are not as inclined to salute as we Yanks. True, or am I nuts on this one?

Personally, I wish the USAF would re-write its ridiculous dress and appearance regulations and allow us to grow some decent mustaches, so we don't have to deploy in order to do so. In garrison we look like a bunch of Hitler's kids!

Cheers!

[BEagle]

Point about 74(F) was that this was a proud unit. The airmen groundcrew just as much as the officer aircrew - and people saluted eachother as custom dictates with an equal pride.

The slovenly, foot shuffling, eye contact avoiding, salute evading few must snap out of it, stand up straight and remember the traditions of the organisation they are part of. Their attitude is the "'sdoin' me 'ed 'in" way of modern 'yoof' - which really means "I'm too lazy to cope!". It's part of the military mind set; when things are going bang around them, which other aspects of military discipline do they think that they'll be able to avoid.........??

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Megaton]

M3

Don't recall getting much respect from you when you were Capn Mad Max! :D

[Gainesy]

Didntdoit,
Witt Station Commander Jerry C?
Screaming Skull Mick S?

On a visit to Cazaux AB, (French AF) I noted that the form appeared to be that all ranks on the sqn came into the crew room, shook the CO's hand and bid him a good morning.
Similarly they all came into the crew room at stack time had a vin rouge coffee or a tinny and shook his hand and bid him goodnight. Didn't see much actual saluting but I probably would not have noticed a, to my mind,normality.
But there was a lot of respect up/down the ladder.

[MajorMadMax]

Ham Phisted

I recall saluting you one day, and seeming to catch you by surprise when I did it! :eek:

Of course, I don't have lieutenant colonels calling me 'sir'!

While deployed to Slovakia on a military liaison team, I remembered the local conscripts flinched when we saluted. I suspect the thought we were going to hit them, as a few of their officers had a tendency to do. Once they got used to our American quick-salute method (at least that's how it is suppose to be), they picked up doing it themselves. One of our primary goals there was to show them what developing a professional NCO corps could do for their military, and how to maintain good order and discipline while displaying mutual respect both up and down the chain-of-command.

Of course, there is some thing to be said for good old wall-to-wall counseling. Wish it were still an option sometimes, as all other methods tend to be futile on some troops...

Cheers!

[Didntdoit]

Gainsy

Witt CO - 2 B4 JC
Skull: B4 Mick S (I think), but after Dark Colour!!