Unemployed CPL Holders! [Archive]

guitarboy

15th Sep 2009, 23:53

I have been following this forum for quite some time now very carefully reading and understanding what everyone has to say for the current scenario.

I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions. i totally understand the low hours of experience / CRM etc. but for once if we see, the problem is with the whole management of the Aviation Industry from the Govt to the Private sector people.

I totally understand and know that 3-4000 CPL holders on the whole may not land up a job in the next 10 yrs. But has the government left any other choice than just remain 250 hour wonders?

The main reason we went out of india to train was becuz there was no daymn infrastructure here. Even though there was a boom in the industry what about the training industry? is there a charted plan. A Straight NO.

Even if some of the people land up jobs the others cant even work in Flight schools here. Even the flight schools are now taking undue advantage of the Scenario of being unemployed and setting up Instructor Scams etc.

Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.

Theres just isnt the right structured plan for anything weather it is for testing knowledge or testing Aptitude.

Well the blame game could keep going on but the main thing here is to understand that this huge lot of CPL holders are sooner of later going to be flying in the Indian skies so rather than making us look like EGO MANIAC, JOB HUNGRY / CUT THROAT / RICH fathers money wasting Brats please help us become better equipped for the times to come either by sharing experiences here or advising us on things u think we require.

Thanks

powerstall

16th Sep 2009, 01:30

.....Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines....What makes you think your better than them? Can you land a two engine aircraft, in single engine. NDB approach when you're approaching minimums at low visibility with a 30 knot direct crosswind and wet runway?.... You haven't even proven yourself in the simulator and this is what you're showing? This is the kind of attitude that doesn't get you nowhere.

If you think you're God's gift to aviation. You're not gonna get the help that you deserve....

Be humble and learn... takes time.... :suspect:

Brian304

16th Sep 2009, 02:42

Well learning to spell first and using less slang will be a good start before finding a job.... My only reccommendation would be to go out and get an office job for a few years first while keeping current and gaining some money, this economic condition isn't going to do you any good when your sitting there on your ass all day...

Brian304

abhi88

16th Sep 2009, 06:54

My only reccommendation would be to go out and get an office job for a few years first while keeping current and gaining some money

:}OR sell copper bangles in a mall somewhere in Effrika!!!!

AviatorVette

16th Sep 2009, 08:15

http://i30.tinypic.com/2cwkl0n.gif

TopTup

16th Sep 2009, 14:23

Guitarboy: As per my previous posts.... You are the exact reason your country's aviation iindustry is such a mess. even though you haven't got a job flying a multi-million dollar aircraft you think you deserve one without the realms of further study, qualificatioins (above the bare minimum to fly a SE Cessna for money), let alone an ounce of commercial experience. And, when you do get the job you'll strut about the aircraft, order the FA's around as if they are dirt and boast to your friends about how cool you are. And already you deem you and your colleauges standards as being so good. Compared to what? You're Playstation shoot-em-up?!

Most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time. But with your 175 hrs, you're "READY" aren't you!! Forgive me, I used "respectable" in the same realm of AI and the DGCA. Now SAFETY? :ugh: AI is a cruel joke played on the travelling public.

Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world.

Grow up. Go and be productive. Start begging for work ANYWHERE that can get you in an aircraft, be it a C172, C210 or ANYTHING. But like most of your arrogant counterparts, you see such jobs as beneath you. Have you gone out on a road trip to every GA operator in India? That was part of the apprenticeship once upon a time. Now you sit on the internet and b!tch on web sites like this that no one will give you a job. Sounds like you're real committed!!!!!!

There is a light at the ned of the tunnel: just about all the expats I know in that cesspit of corruption, arrogance, mismanagement and life of desperatly dispciable low standars that is AI are leaving as soon as they can. Most of the expat FOs either have or are was my latest update from a friend. So, with your 175 hrs you too will be sitting in a shiny 777 or 747 (unless it too burns up) living life just one close call after another by a Cmdr who COULD NOT hold a job let alone license in a repectable airline or country.

Yeah.... Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed. Like someone else said, selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better.

kevinsky18

16th Sep 2009, 15:18

I would like to take the devil’s advocate position for a moment here. I’m not Indian or Brown. I’m a white Canadian born and raised in Canada.

I pose this question to all: Are the Indians really that out of touch or is it we the westerners (Americians, Brits etc) that are out of touch?

They post looking to take a low level entry job in a light jet or turbine PC12 and we call them crazy and arrogant.

Westerners post looking for a ramp job offering to work for next to nothing, pay for type ratings and other training and basically agree to work on the ramp in a non flying job for a couple of years with no signed agreement to even receive a flying position after all that time is invested.

Out of these two groups who is acting like a bangle sales person? Who is acting like they should be treated like dirt, have no expectation of placement in a field for which they have trained and been licensed?

These people have Canadian, US and British licences. They have passed the same exams as all of us.

Did their parents pay for their training; perhaps? But many Westerners get assistance too whether it’s from their parents, student loans, Unemployment Insurance etc.

All pilots the world round suffer from a form of arrogance. Back in the 60’s and 70’s western airline pilots were just as bad. And some are still this way. Heck I see dock hands with the ink still wet on their license acting arrogant at times.

Thinking that we are better just because we spent 2 or 3 years working in the freezing artic before getting a 172 flying gig is arrogant as well. And even if we think that we in the west are less arrogant it’s only because we have allowed ourselves to believe we are not worthy of a decent flying job for the first 10 years of our careers.

I bet Indian pilots sit around wondering why we act the way we do and allow our selves to be treated like orphaned street beggars.

I’ve been a commercial pilot for 15 going on 20 years now. I run a small aviation business and I’ve seen all the sides of this debate. I’m no religious guy but I think the statement “judge not less he be judge” or "he who hath no sin be the first to cast a stone." applies well in this case.

gauravprakash007i

16th Sep 2009, 16:29

With regards to everyone posting here , i'd like to add my two cents...

Well the industry is at a bad stage now and everyone is wanting to get a good share of the jobs around.

They post looking to take a low level entry job in a light jet or turbine PC12 and we call them crazy and arrogant.
With due respect sir , I feel its about the Indian mentality of a white collar job in our way of thinking if you have been trained to be a Pilot you HAVE to be inside the cockpit flying the aircraft - if you are doing anything else around the airport its not considered a white collar job for a pilot - again its just a general way of how we think!

Most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time. But with your 175 hrs, you're "READY" aren't you!!
Agreed... However in the past airlines in India have been recruiting pilots with 250hrs CPL(ME) and w/o type-rating....I guess thats is what is going on in his mind.

@ guitarboy
I understand your concern and frustration. But you need to also consider the fact that there are 4000 odd guys just like us waiting to fly the biggies!
Till the time you hook up something try getting some experience somewhere.

I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions

Well you do fail to understand!
Being employed or not has nothing to with your technical knowledge on the subject - of course if you land at a forum where they are talking about how they manage the FMS on an airliner and you pop something stupid , well u'll obviously feel like junk!;)

.....out of india to ......:=
India please!

guitarboy

16th Sep 2009, 16:39

@ POWERSTALL : I only meant "better" in a way of probably understanding the subjects / flying etc referring to the people who got in during the sudden intake of CPL holders without such exams etc during the BOOM!

@BRIAN304 : Well i own a company which is already provides me a Six figure salary. i Say that with pride being just 21. This is not a Shakespere forum that i have to be so worried about a spell check / slang check. When i do go for an office job interview ill keep your advice spell check / slang check in handy.
Flying for me was for the passion of flying and not money. I am ready to undergo every training / written exam / oral exam etc to prove my worth.

@ABHI88 : Well selling bangles! yeah sure..Thanks for the idea. Theres nothing bad in that. Every job should be respected at par.

@Itsbrokenagain : Well its pretty obvious no one hires the papers which boast your qualifications. Thats why on the first place we have interviews. But when did i say no for a simulator check! But at least we should be given a chance.
I can prove myself and so can other people in their own way but how to go about it! No one knows.

@TOPUP: Everyday we see a huge number of instances when industries / governments of various countries become a laughing stock. We coexist to make this a better place rather than u laugh on me and i laugh on you. I wasnt here to bitch, but only ask people to empathize with us.

alouette3

16th Sep 2009, 17:20

Kevinsky18

Great Post!!:ok:
Pilots as a group are the most egotistical, ever.However, they also sell themselves short. Just so you all know, a medical student can spend up to $200K for an MD but does not go looking to be a pharmacist's assistant or an assitant-bed-pan-cleaner.Yes,he does need to build experience and build up a solid reputation.But,no one hires him to be anything other than a doctor. His apprenticeship begins and ends with his internship/residency.To my mind if a guy has earned a CPL/ME/IR he has completed his residency. Yet he is willing (nay expected) to go and clean hangar floors and fill gas on the ramp for a few years before he has earned the right to be even considered for a low paying cargo ops.or commuter airline (Part 135 for the US guys).Is that the system?Then it sucks. Airlines need to stop holding this "I-love-flying-and -so I will-prostitute-myself" card over our heads.Lives are at stake,you say? Commercial Pilots (Me included) need to get over yourselves. Any self respecting Air Force in the world (Indian Air Force included)trains 21 year olds and turns them loose with multimillion dollar machines. And they cope. Indeed, they do well.A nation's security depends on these young men flying far more complex aircraft and missions well.Why then this cry for only grizzled veterans with 10,000 hours only?Admittedly, 250 hours is a bit low but a good training system before and after hiring can weed out the flotsam and jetsam and keep the best of the best. Some of the cream might have 500 hours but might be more competent than the greybeard.
I know, I know there will be smoking holes etc. etc. Until that happens I remain skeptical.
Alt3.

Vimd23

16th Sep 2009, 17:25

Kevinsky18 , your post was excellent and made for some well informed reading and after thought. Like you said " Arrogance " is the worst enemy a man can have , let alone a pilot . Having said that I also think Judge not the other person , lest you have worn his shoes and walked a few steps.

Just FYI , I too finished my CPL in Australia way back in 1995 , then came back to India and worked with a cargo operator as load control staff for 2 yrs , with a western airline as passenger service staff for 3 , worked with a corporate operator for 3 before getting the job I currently hold in Jet Airways as an F/O on the 737. The years spent working and waiting were sobering to say the least , out of my course mates who started with me ( 20 in all ) only 3 of us are still pursuing a flying career.

What separates the wheat from the chaff in my opinion is the will to believe , survive and make it no matter what. My advise to all unemployed CPL holders in India is find a job in the aviation industry in India , learn a little something about the other aspects of airline work at least for a while . If in some time things do not change keep the faith and go find a job abroad and keep clocking the hours. These are the things that will make or break you.

Take heart and keep the faith , nothing was EVER handed to anyone on a platter.

rgds
vimd23

Sky Dancer

16th Sep 2009, 18:25

Well Guitar Boy you've had some pretty good advice dished out to you so far.As has been said , try and get a job within the industry and maintain a current licence.Don't give up and stay positive irrespective of what people around you may say.You never know what may come your way one day.I also understand your post about "being better that the existing FOs" because quite frankly you are right.During the boom there were many who managed to get a job without really deserving.I've come across such people and always felt that they certainly didn't belong in the cockpit.At least they owed it to the passengers to stay away.Nevertheless best of luck for your flying career and hope to see you on the flight deck soon.:ok:

shanx

16th Sep 2009, 19:11

I would agree to an extent with what guitarboy has written regarding "being better than some of the current boom-time babies FOs" .

I have myself seen and interacted with these FOs we are talking about (boom time babies).
Agreed, they may be able to decently do their PF/PNF duties during their line flying under some good guidance, but thats about it ! .. There's nothing so extra ordinary about them, other than the fact they they had a CPL at the right time.

Just as an example , These "boom time baby" FOs do not know or have never heard about the "Coffin's Corner", Whitcomb's Area Rule, Mach tuck, stuff related to super sonic/sub sonic flight ..
Some have absolutely no interest in discussing aviation or flying related topics.
So many of them do not know or struggle to do some basic NDB holds or DME arc using the RMI on Micro$oft Flight Simulator with autopilot on any of the default aircraft.
I could go on and on .......................

I would even go to the extent of saying that many of them are just VERY WELL TRAINED CHIMPANZEES !! :} (no offense though) ......... maybe thats why a lot of captains have often told me that even a chimp can be trained to program the computers in an airbus flight deck !!! :}

powerstall

17th Sep 2009, 01:20

Guitarboy: What makes you think you're better than the ones who made it to the airlines? Your sour graping will always be futile. Becaues you missed the opportunity when the airlines needed a big number of CPLs with low hours. Now that they have reached their requirement, they can up the ante or the requirements. Same with other airlines... you very well know the logic of SUPPLY and DEMAND...since you already claimed you owned a company that gives you 6 figure income. Why bother being a pilot?

Makes sense doesn't it? :=

skaios

17th Sep 2009, 11:08

@Powerstall: It's quite obvious that you have missed the point of guitarboy's post completely. Maybe you should read it again. This time a little slower. As a fellow unemployed CPL holder I empathize with guitarboy and I think he has taken a positive step by asking for some advice from some of the more experienced pilots in the forum. You might be a veteran PPruner with your few hundred posts but clearly you have nothing positive or of substance to add to the discussion.

Although some of the earlier replies might have been slightly rude they atleast contained some decent useable advice.

You talk about landing a two engine aircraft, with an engine out on an NDB approach when you're approaching minimums at low visibility with a 30 knot direct crosswind and wet runway. Whom are you trying to impress? Reduce the crosswind to about 20 knots, subtract the wet runway and add a G1000 failure to it. There were a 150 students at my school in the USA and we were trained to do exactly that. In a simulator and in an airplane. Some of us made it. Some of us didn't. But no one got their Commercial Multi Instrument without it. Now I'm not saying that should make me eligible to fly a jumbo but the point I'm trying to make is that with the right training it is possible.

If you think that ALL of the pilots currently flying for the airlines in India would be able to do the same or are the ones that have shown the most skill or potential or aptitude then it's quite clear that you have no understanding about the recent history of Indian aviation.

You're worse than an Indian news channel when it comes to misquoting people. When did guitarboy ever state that he thinks he is "god's gift to aviation." Again, all he's asking for is some advice. The only reason I am defending him is because it might as well have been me starting this thread instead of him. Guitarboy, me and several people like us have been backed into a corner with not very many options to choose from. There might be some who might think they are god's gift and that it is their birthright but that is not a belief I subscribe to. A lot of us take aviaton as a career very seriously. We are willing to pay our dues, to gather the experience required and to work our way up but sadly there aren't very many ways to do that in India. Most other countries the progression goes something like this: commercial pilot ---> flight instructor ---> regional ---> major. Right now in India it's either fly with a major or nothing.

And when did becoming a pilot become only about the money? It's quite sad that you think just because someone might be making enough money on the side that they should give up something that might be more appealing.

"Makes sense doesn't it?"

No it doesn't.

@Toptup: I have been following your posts on Air India and Indian aviation for a while now and I must say that I respect your sense of ethics and professionalism. I don't think I would be able to survive in an environment like the one you described even for a second and I don't intend to. I understand that your experience wasn't the best but it seems that you have started seeing every Indian pilot or aspiring pilot in the same light. We are not all like that! Your cynicism and hatred for Air India seems to have completely blinded you.

"You are the exact reason your country's aviation iindustry is such a mess."

"Even though you haven't got a job flying a multi-million dollar aircraft you think you deserve one."

"When you do get the job you'll strut about the aircraft, order the FA's around as if they are dirt and boast to your friends about how cool you are."

"Your arrogance has hit a nerve you may have guessed."

"Selling bangles by the roadside suits the likes of you better."

What are you talking about? I've been wondering if you and I read the same post?!

You say "most "respectable" airlines recruit pilots with AT LEAST an ATP / ATPL with AT LEAST 500 hrs command on multi engine aircraft and 2000 hrs turbine time." I think Singapore, Quantas, Emirates and KLM can all be classified as respectable and they all have cadet programs where candidates with no flying experience whatsover are chosen to be trained and groomed to fly on the right seat.

Maybe it was done differently in whatever era you started flying in but I am sorry to say that things have changed.

I am in no way saying that I am ready to fly a jet with my 250 hours. But I sure as hell am ready to be tested for potential and then trained accordingly.

You might think that "Indian aviation is the laughing stock of the world" but fortunately your opinion doesn't really count for much.

On the other hand, this small little company called Boeing thinks India and China are going to account for aircraft sales of over $1 trillion over the next twenty years.

Yes, things are not as professional as they should be but it's changing. The DGCA is cleaning up its act. And Air India will have to sooner or later too. The aviation boom caught everyone by surprise. But I think Indian aviation is better off without pessimistic, cynical and condescending people like you.

------------

Thanks to everyone else who have come up with interesting suggestions, fresh perspectives and words of encouragement.

jetzup

17th Sep 2009, 15:17

guitarboy...the writing was on the wall right from the thread title... you "wannabe bashers" magnet!

TopTup

18th Sep 2009, 06:57

Skaios:
You are right, and my last post was perhaps not very fair and written with some poison in the ink. I cannot help but be tainted by what I went through and see still detiorating in Indian aviation. My problem and not fair to lash out - you are right.

Yes. SIN, QF, EK, KLM, CX, EY, etc, etc do employ pilots from a cadetship. That cadetship includes either being farmed out for a year on a Dash8/Metroliner/Banderante (QF), doing 250 hrs (approx) on a Learjet as training (SIN), being sent on a BAE146 first (or use to be at KLM) while CX, EK and EY have their cadets through a THOROUGH and RESPECTED training system of sims and ground school. The cadtes are interviewed and screened thoroughly before being accepted. ALSO, many/most are SECOND OFFICERS for 3-5 years before getting a look at a RHS. They (all cadets) can and do get scrubbed if not making the grade. Those who are checked to line are skilful, knowledgable and capable FOs. Not so at AI. FACT. I have colleagues at all the above mentioned airlines.

At AI, 175 hrs TT into a 73NG, A310, 777 or 744. The (in house) exam answers are sent via text message to eachother. The training is laughable (even they say so themselves), then the inability to fly a 777 straight and level on downwind (as again I witnessed first hand). And guess what, they are all passed as suitable. FO's unable to define V1, Vr or V2, let alone Vmcg or Vmca. Those are facts.

Where experience is not their training must take its place. No one can seriously be honest with themselves and say that this is true at AI.

Kevinsky18:
A good post sir and an interesting food for thought. The reason pilots went out and cleaned hangers, polished aircraft, worked the ramp, took up jobs as meat-bombers (parachute ops), freight runners, tourist flights in C172, C210, etc.... is because their were no jobs on shiney jets to walk into. So, they did what they could to stay within the industry, improve their experience until either they had the competitive experience or the job situation opened: often these two points worked hand in hand. These jobs then, as it should and in many countries is to be considered a privilegde. My grudge is those 175 hr pilots sitting at home expecting / thinking that these jobs are their RIGHT and not to be earnt after gaining a brand new CPL. They have no desire to get out and look for a light piston job if that's what will keep them current and flying. That is my point. What I did "way back when" was not a right of passage but what I HAD TO DO to fulfill my dreams and ambitions.

Some carriers are screaming for turboprop pilots but I know for a fact (conversations with parents of CPL holders and CPL holders themselves) that they deem prop jobs as beneath them. Why fly a prop when they should be able to fly a jet??! Again, first hand experience.

Yeah... Boeing and Airbus see India and China as a huge market for sales. As I have stated, friends and colleagues at Boeing are weary and wash their hands of many issues. So, in come the politics! [Source not revealed but also a FACT].

My point of view still stands: get off your backside and get flying, wherever, however to become a better pilot. Heaven knows the training at AI is basically criminally neglectful (harsh but true). So, hit the books and go and FLY!

Guitarboy: my comments about an arrogant "so and so" ordering about the FA's as slaves, etc was not fair. I have seen it done but that does not mean either you are or I hope will. So, my apologies. (I shouldn't post when on a high horse.... You didn't deserve that.) I trust though you listen to some advice and go and get out their and hunt for a flying job.

powerstall

18th Sep 2009, 09:28

@skaios:
First of all, the simulator is different from the real thing. Wouldn't you agree? since you already stated the fact that the said scenario was peanuts for you. The sim has a controlled airspace you move in with the TRI/TRE's having the option to change one thing or another. I sure hope you know that things change when flying for real. There are a lot of things that are not within YOUR control.

Secondly, regarding Guitarboy's post. If you really have read his post, He is clearly expressing his disgust for the FO's that are currently flying in the line. I was merely stating the fact that how could he CLAIM to be better than the FO's that were hired with CPL-low timers. Isn't he also a CPL with low time? the only problem was he was never hired due to the fact that the airlines have already filled up their slots..... that's where supply and demand comes in.... when there is a high demand for flight deck crews, but the pilots are in short supply, airlines would bend the rules so they could fill up their slots asap. They may lower their requirements to just CPL with IR for example. But when they do have their flight deck crew slots filled or nearing their intended numbers, the airlines now could bend the rules back to their original requirements and may ask for more. This could be in flying time or they may now need turbine time. At this time they may be stricter and wash out the ones who have the least experience or those who they deem to see not fit for their airline.

Now, let me ask you this, Who made the choice for you to spend a ton of money for flight training? was it the airlines? was it the media? I may never know...
But why do you speak as if the airlines owed you something?

I know a lot of you guys over there in incredible india, had to borrow, maybe sell their properties to fund their flight training. Hoping to fly a big shiny jet as soon as your CPL training was finished and repay the debt incurred. But who made the choice? Who is to blame? Who gave you the assurance that after your training with 200+ hrs. You already have a RIGHT to fly a big and shiny jet? Who?

And please, stop patronizing yourself. Stop complaining and whining like a little brat. It will get you nowhere. Work you ass off, get any flying job then work it up from there. Any job is better than no job.

I know this fact first hand, and I.N.D.I.A. :=

oh before i forget. If guitarboy really wanted to fly? wouldn't he be happy flying his own aircraft just for the fun of it? since he indicated he was earning six figures.. .go buy yourself a king air e90 or a caravan. Go figure.

shanx

18th Sep 2009, 10:06

There are some basic problems here which plagues India's civil aviation industry :

1. Bad method of selection of pilots.

2. Poor training in several airlines.

3. Big ego that naturally develops when kids with a CPL meeting bare minimum requirements find themselves flying domestic and international sectors and having layovers at destinations they never would have imagined in their wildest dreams, in luxury hotels etc.

SOLUTION :

1. I guess nothing much can be done. Slots eventually get filled up due to demand-supply condition and based on that, the selection criteria can be rigorous and comprehensive or a red-carpet welcome by the airline to the candidate !

2. Nepotism, favouritism etc needs to be stopped or atleast controlled to an extent. This is the root cause of all the major problems in India.

3. Airlines must NOT give high salaries or perks to the new hires. Make them stay in small guest hoses or lodges during layovers. This is the ONLY way the ego problem can be nipped in the bud. Let them know where they really stand.
Make these kids live a life of austerity TILL they get an ATPL or prove their worth in some way or the other.
Instructors and examiners must constantly keep checking the knowledge level and competence of the young hires and if they are unable to explain simple things like V speeds, basic systems of a/c type, terrible CRM etc, then it should go into their "report card" or whatever and result in an automatic reduction of their salaries and perks.

Not only would this help in controlling the ego problem amongst Indians, it would save the airlines BIG BUCKS !!!

guitarboy

18th Sep 2009, 11:23

@Powerstall: I never meant or said or felt disgusted to the FO's working in airlines today.

I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions.

This is what i disgust.

Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.

This was the only thing where i even got the FO'z and it doesnt sound like i hated them just cuz i didnt get a job.

I only was really pissed that everytime unemployed cpl holders are talked about we are made to look like some poor beggars looking at a shiny mercedes at a traffic signal waiting for alms. i.e when we think we can fly those jets / turboprops. i just want that to go away.

and for the six figure salary. i get six figures in INR (INDIAN RUPEE) and that comes out to be a 4 figure salary in $$$$'z. So buying goes out of question and besides its not just my problem, i represent other people too.

POWERSTALL all your replys in this post have been so rude that im really feeling sorry for the FO who flys with you. Get Well Soon my aviator friend.

guitarboy

18th Sep 2009, 17:05

@ POWERSTALL: I fail to understand why are the Unemployed CPL Holders made to feel like junk in discussions
This is what i am disgusted about. and was the main topic for me to start the post.

Just because we went out to train, doesnt make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.
This is what i had said about the FOz and theres nothing that im hating or not liking of them getting the job in their time and not me. im just saying a thing. and i didnt say 'I AM' .. i said "some may". neither did i say im some god gift to aviation.

About the six figure salary. i get that in INR and thats a four figure salary in $$$'z so buying a king air etc is outta the question and anyways i am also representing other people here so what i earn doesn't really matter.

When we think or just talk of flying Jets/turbo Props, People like you make us feel like we're some hungry beggers standing on the roadside looking at your shiny Mercedes waiting for you to open that window and throw some coins at us.

Youre just a human like all others so lets make this world a little more PEACEFUL by removing the Angst and Rudeness.

Im just feeling so sad for the First officer who flies with you, are you as rude with him too?

guitarboy

18th Sep 2009, 17:10

Thanks to SHANX & SKAIOS for backing me up.

I only mean push a CLEAN CAUSE and not say or listen to BULL S*** about people.

powerstall

18th Sep 2009, 17:31

@Guitarboy

Why is it when everything is explained to you VERY CLEARLY, you guys find it offensive? Is it because, it's not the answer you want to hear? Or is it because what i have stated are facts and you can't accept them? You asked and you got served.

Your arrogance and attitude towards aviation will never get you anywhere. A lot of us here had odd jobs before working for the airlines. I too had a time when i had no job. But, i kept on instead of whining.

That is called dedication......

Aviation in itself is very different from the medical field. We can not just say i spent this much money and expect so so much in return. There are a lot of guys here who spent thousands of dollars for their OWN type rating and even when they are in the majors, they are still paying off this debt. Some of us may be on top now but later on, we can be at the very bottom....

And please do spare me the drama when flying. I've spent time with some of you there. And some of them are humble and eager to learn but there are those who think they're better than the rest, but when it came to crunch time.... blew it big time.... just like the BAe ATP that flew for an orange colored courier company.

Now, if you're gonna bash me with that cheap line about being rude. this is an open forum every bloke is entitled to his own opinion.... How can i be rude if i just told you facts? :E

guitarboy

18th Sep 2009, 17:51

ok powerstall: MY BAD :)
Points taken.

but this post was better than all your last ones :)
thanks

ghuman_07

18th Sep 2009, 19:03

gentlemen,,, i really dont know where this thing came up ,,,, that we guys with fresh cpl`s think ,,,we are owed jobs and deserve to fly a 737 or a 320 straight out,,, we r willing to work for it just as hard as any 1 before us has,,,,,,
but the fact remains that in india things r not as structured as in the western countries where u get oppurtunities to build your hours on single engine ac`s and graduating step by step,,,building a 1000hrs workin on ur atpl etc ,, as some 1 pointed out it is either the moon or u get nothing at all,,, thats y ppl had to go to other countries to get there licenses,,, had there been good flying clubs in the country,,, there would be jobs as instructors and as a result people get to build hrs,,
i have not got a flyin job so far ,,,,,,, so i started working with an airline in operations just to be in and around the industry and pay my bills

and 1 more thing we may have low hours ,,,,and have a lot to learn but in all dat we have done so far we have done are very best,,, and we are not cribbing for jobs we will earn them:)
and yeah sure as hell we can do single engine landings on a multi engine
plus ndb vor approaches etc,,,, i did my instument rating in vancouver in december,,, i was right btw vancouver abbotsford n victoria,,, and all of em r international airports,,, so it was not easy,, plus any 1 who has flown in vancouver in the winters will tell you wat the weather is like,

to all the experienced gentlemen out there, we have a lot to learn from you,, so please dont put us down,,, we are not looking for a gravy train, hell i`d be happy flying a c 152 /172 as long as i get to fly

Sky Dancer

19th Sep 2009, 07:14

good post.best of luck:ok:

COCOCHANEL

19th Sep 2009, 11:26

For those who are hassled by guitar boy's post pls. don't pull out all stops on sarcasm and rubbish Indian low hours cpl holders for having a bad attitude, and the arrogance to dare to dream of a jet rhs seat, just because it was not possible for you. That I would say, show extreme bad attitude and arrogance, also a lack of understanding of the Indian and Asian Aviation scene generally, from your side.

I understand that you had earn it the hard way flying 1500 hours to get the ATPL by working as a cfi or in GA , as that was what was expected of you after the initial cpl, which could be partly due to the regional airlines minimum requirement. Also that you had to bite the bullet for years when there were no jobs going around. I would have written some words of encouragement then.

Many reputable European, and Asian airlines did adopt the policy of hiring 200 hrs wonder, so expectations were different earlier for cpl holders from India, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, and many countries in Europe where 200-250 hours cpl holders do actally get the rhs seats.

Some countries in SE Asia will not issue an an ATPL if you have never flown on an a/c where a two member crew operation is required.

If your countries' and airlines policies are different, it could be partly because there are a lot of GA and an oversupply of qualified pilots. I don't think I have to bring up history to explain as to why that is in certain countries and not in some.

If you want to debate whether an FAA, JAR, CASA, DGCA, DCA, 250 hours type rated cpl holder should be anywhere near the rhs seat, go ahead and start a new thread on it(Indian and asian students trained in different countries)....or if you feel strongly about it, take it up with the management of the airlines and the countries aviation authorities.

And for those who want to thrash wannabes just for the heck of it, you can also start a thread, as per one of the wannabes ppruner's quote " die wannabes... die"

... some quote 98% of local pilots do so and so, liberally with no empirical evidence whatsover...why not just make it 100%...

Really appreciate those that posted some kind and encouraging words or made an attempt to be in an indian cpl holder's shoes, kevinsky18, I like.

GA flying opportunities for fresh cpl holders in India and many Asian countries simply doesn't exist, neither do ASSISTANT FI jobs for anyone with less than 200 p.i.c time. FI p.i.c time , and GA p.i.c time requirements are a lot higher.

I believe guitarboy knows there was no guarantee of a job when he embarked on the cpl course, he was trying to point out the govt's and the civil aviation ministry's lack of planning and proper strategy in aviation in the past, and the present. Also the lack of basics like proper flight schools, promotion of GA, and the presence of outdated policies like the unnecessary high hire time requirements. both for assistant FI, and FI, even flying the 172 in a simple GA operaton would require ridiculous pic time.

guitarboy also hinted at how a few of the present F.O's got their licenses and jobs--not an entirely unfounded remark judging some corruptions in certain flight schools and the DGCA that was uncovered a couple of years back.

It is true that many low hours cpl holders have the education, the experience and the resources to do other things. However, there are no low priced fbo's (like in the u.s) to go to for a flight in India while working in non aviation fields, no GA outfit doors to knock......some of the cpl holders simply miss flying...and I don't mean as a passenger.

jahaj_crash

19th Sep 2009, 17:55

I 'm glad this post is bringing out something...last time i tried a similar post for advices it ended up with how to avoid yogurt on your tie in cockpit advices :ugh::}. I enjoyed it though.
There were pretty Nice & Encouraging ones as well ...Loved the one by TOP UP:D:ok:
anyways... as a low timer myself...i dont dont mind the bashing as long im learning...besides i dont take it personally either....so keep it coming ..... Give it your best..:ok:

GoodGrief

19th Sep 2009, 19:01

It is the general attitude of Pilots in India.
Yes, they think they are superior. They are better people.
Right now I share a huge appartment with an Indian pilot and our two tekkies.
Don't ask...

Well, this git told the management and me that he feels the company should rent another flat for the technicians. WE are superior and he feels he should not have to share with subordinates.
I gave him the proper speech of course but he has two ears.
He listens but he does not have the intelligence to understand.
Right after landing he leaves for the hotel, the tekki has to take care of the aircraft.
You think he would help?
He yells at the tekki "I am hungry, why didn't you get me some fruits"?

But the real biggie is:
We have customers (Indian) who do not want to fly with Indian pilots.
They are highly UNprofessional being nosy, talking to the customer, asking favours, listening to their conversations, giving out their business card, asking questions like "how much did you pay for this trip" etc. , etc, pp.

The customers specifically ask for the "foreign" pilot.

Add to that that he can't fly straight and level.He gives a **** about engine parameters, headings, altitudes, you name it.
With more than 2500 hours one is not really a beginner...

Rant over.

guitarboy

19th Sep 2009, 19:12

@ GOODGRIEF : why dont you let the management know that, its for the management to take care of such things and not other pilots and techies.

I double What SHANX said on this page of the thread. Theres a huge amount of work to be done by the management to solve this ego / superiority complex / following the sop's / knowing everything in & out / problem.

I feel sad to say that i think they are waiting for a disaster to happen to even think of starting this..things in india is such and most of us cant help it.

well such is life dearies.

@ COCOCHANEL : Thanks for helpin me out here.. some people just made everything look out of proportion.

@jahaj_crash : well i got the bashing too, but with every good advice i get, i throw the bashing behind.

GoodGrief

19th Sep 2009, 19:22

@guitarboy
You have PM.

TopTup

20th Sep 2009, 02:12

Gents.... So, after all the back-slapping and to & fro-ing of posts, which one of you is going to get in the car and bang down the door of every GA / piston operator to go and fly?

No one is "BASHING" wannabe's or low timers. That does not make sense as we have all been there. What some people are ""bashing is the attitude of the low timers and wannabe's on this forum. And, it seems no matter what is written or advice given here, none of you are willing, for example, to go and fly a light piston in the interim.

You are still sitting on your tails and expecting the jet job to land in your laps.:=

Ghuman 07: Please, when next you post write in ENGLISH. I tried reading your post but the headache became unbearable.

silent_scream

20th Sep 2009, 03:27

Greetings Fellas,

Unemployment, is equally bad in all spheres of life and it does not know countries and continents.
I'll pick up on people one at a time. Lets see how it goes.

Guitar Boy - You asked for Advise. Got bashed up. Used to it by now I guess.
I'll come to the advice at the end of my post. Rest of your post was fairly accurate to my belief.

Powerstall - Guitar Boy Said.....Just because we went out to train, doesn't make all of us lousy. Some may be way better than the F/o'z of today in airlines.... You proved it with your reply.

Top Tup, I have always shared your views. I'd follow your advice this time as well. But I shall differ a bit.

Kevinsky18,Gauravprakash007,Vimd23,shanx, skaios, itsbrokenagain, ghuman07 ,cocochanel, great bits. Thanks for that.

@ GoodGrief, What would happen if the Techie slapped the Pilot ?

And you are referring to the 2500 Hour Experienced Boeing / Airbus Pilot not being able to fly straight and level. DGCA wants you to be replaced by them. I don't even know whom to pity. Them, Me ,You or the Pax.

--------------------

I have questions.

1. Has any one noticed there is practically not even Single Wannabe question regarding India on this website.

2. Expats who are flying in India, How many times have you come across a GA or a Training Flight while Flying in and out of Airports and Airspaces here ?

Ans - (Couldn't help answering this one) Please do not ask me to go to GA / Instructor positions. There are none for a 200 Hr wonder like me. (Now tell me am arrogant and don't want to do the searching).

3. Every time there is a discussion on this forum, Its a group of 15 - 20 People involved in it (This post has been different because many like to bash up Newbies.) who are Either Unemployed or are expats who have flown or are flying here.Bash each other. Sometimes Help each other.
There are some exceptions, but majority of the guys who fly airlines are too busy I guess.

4. Ryan Air is been taking JAA 200 Hour Wonders who pay for Type for some time. Even now when there are many more experienced guys available. Source being the Ryan Air thread in the Jobs for Newbies.
Even they are bashed up in a similar fashion. So its always been a trend to Bash. Isn't it ?

There are about 3000 Unemployed CPL Holders and I have no idea how many in the process. Last week there were more than thousand guys on the DGCA computer Number list. Are there going to be jobs for all of us ? I don't know.

Are all of us going to stick in the Aviation Field, I do not think so. Vimd23 gives first hand experience.

-------------------

I could be a god's Gift to aviation. Heck I'd be god myself but wouldn't be able to get past the Bureaucracy.
I have attitude, but one which is completely toppled .

I do not have advice for people. But I will tell you what I am going to do.

Some one suggested that we take up Jobs related to aviation and stay in touch with flying.
But my question is, We learn everyday, agreed. But will being a Ground Staff who earns 15000 INR / 300 $ learn so much as to move his / hers way up in the Company ?

Not in INDIA.

I'd rather do something which is Not related to aviation but pays me more (considering one is qualified for the same) and then Save so I can buy my way (Type Rating) into the Airline while the Fellow Ground Staffer CPL's tries to request the people he KNOWS in the Airline when the Industry does come up with vacancies.

Ones that are only HSC (10+2), get yourself a degree. Will help. And please not the "BBA (Flying)" from Dibrugarh.
What a Muck. :ugh:

So much for Advice.

Some one posted that a Chipmunk could be trained to fly a A320. I say, the Chimp will be bloody better at it !

Fly Safe.

Silent.

TopTup

21st Sep 2009, 07:53

So.... a "newbie / wannabe" posts to either ask for advice or comment on a situation. The advice or comments are returned by those with many, many years of (international) airline experience and the GA scene from numerous countries as well as with knowedge AND experience of the Indian aviation industry yet no matter what is offered you all seem to know better.

To comment on a post about RyanAir hiring 200 hr CPL pilots, yes they have and do. BUT (and I AM SO SICK OF POSTING THE SAME THING!) they have in place world respected training systems and monitoring procedures. NOT so in India. FACT. That makes ALL the difference. Please do not pass comment on this as you are yet to have the credentials or experience to do so.

If not a job flying in GA why not AT LEAST your ATP / ATPL subjects?

As I do so often in dealing with Indian aviation, I stop when the head hurts too much from striking the brick wall. That's me done with this thread.

SEE YA! Yep... You "newbies and wannabes" in time will get that jet job and the cycle of deteriorating standards will go on and on and on......

casper63

21st Sep 2009, 10:58

Dear Top Tup,

As requested earlier please don't generalise Indian Aviation. There are several professionals here who are much better than you so please keep your opinion to yourself. You are not welcome in this part ot the world. Just FOLLOW your own advice and stay away. Also please let us know which great country you belong to so that we can also retaliate in all fairness.

BTW some FOs with 200 hours in my airline will teach you a thing or two especially manners

GoodGrief

21st Sep 2009, 12:39

Question. Provokative. As always.

The world has a major shortage of pilots. Apparently.
Why is the most part of these 4000 Indian pilots not being taken on by the world's airlines?
How many Indian pilots actually work for other airlines outside of India as co and captain?

bad_attitude

21st Sep 2009, 14:04

The primary reason you won't find Indian's flying around the world would be due to lack of work permits / VISAs.

However you'll find a whole bunch of them in the Gulf, SQ. etc.

ghuman_07

21st Sep 2009, 17:19

@toptup : as you could probably figure out from the first word of my post, it is adressed to "gentlemen". A category which evidently doesnot include you, so u didn`t lose out on much there :)

Another thing i did go knocking on the door of every single GENERAL AVIATION operator and flying club in india, and num 2 the flying standards in Canada are as good as any where in the world,,, so if ur RYAN AIR is justified in hiring 200hr CPl holders, dont go crying bloody murder when it happens in india.

ps : learn to read english for dummies,,, highly recommended for u :P

kartik.subramaniam

22nd Sep 2009, 05:58

Well guys it seems that the Indian Airforce is recruiting Pilots for there transport category aircarfts , people with DGCA license can apply and there relaxation in the age limit and also the eyesight . So just go for it and fly for the country rather than some stupid pvt airline .

PS : see employment news for the advertisement or the indian airforce website.

TopTup

22nd Sep 2009, 09:20

Casper63:
I know I am not and was not welcome in India, so resigned. I never felt welcome when I and other colleagues tried to bypass the Indian caste system, corruption, xenophobic attitude, and ICAO recognised woeful standards. When we tried to make a difference for the better, we were met with your arrogance and "head-in-the-sand" mentality. So, read the facts:
Indian Aviation Indian airlines: Not safe enough? - eTurboNews.com (http://www.eturbonews.com/7451/indian-airlines-not-safe-enough)
Indian flights to US score low on safety - India Business - Business - NEWS - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India-Business/Indian-flights-to-US-score-low-on-safety/articleshow/3970269.cms)

GuitarBoy:
I apologised to you for an unfair initial response. You chose to join the other kids in the schoolyard sandbox and attack me. The pure fact that you need to turn to "Google" to research minimal basic aviation knowledge such as coffin corner speaks volumes for your training, standards and abilities. The scarey thing is that you hold a CPL, supposedly. I googled "coffin corner" out of interest and here's what I found as a first repsonse:
http://thecoffincorner.*************/
So, if that is where you deem it acceptable to gain your aviation knowledge, heaven help the travelling public. What a disgrace.

Ghuman_07:
In the internationally recognised language of aviation (ENGLISH, refer ICAO) I am yet to ever see a sentance end in 3 x comas or any other of the shortened terms you deem an acceptable standard. In all the aviation journals, FCOMS, manuals and regulatory documents in any country holding a Airworthiness Certificate, your take on the English language will never be found. You insult mine and other professionals intelligence to even bother to repsond to your dribble of an excuse.

I have never claimed to be any gift to aviation. I only ever quote facts and personal first hand experience. If you wish to interpret things that way then that is your right. After all, my > 26,000 hrs of aviation experience, TRE/TRI qualifications, 2 x tertiary degrees, published articles and FAA & JAA recognised CRM Instructor's credentials will never match your 175 hr attitude and arrogance. (Yep, that is chest beating somewhat but it sure is a relief to know that at last there is google to help me out!)

OK children, that definitely is it for me. I have to go and sign on to fly a shiney 777 in an hour. You have given me much to laugh about over the next 9.5 hours. And don't forget, the term "professional" implies you are skilled, knowledgable, and earn an income from what you do. You either do not or cannot. Isn't this the Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork? (Define "Professional" (http://mjeaton.net/blog/archive/2005/08/29/656.aspx))

I'm not going to bite again. I won't even check this thread again. Enjoy delving to the depths of pitiful mediocrity your colleagues and your arrogant attitudes have created. You are doing well to uphold India as a laughing stock of aviation throughout the world.

alouette3

22nd Sep 2009, 12:35

Guitarboy,
You started this thread with a legitimate beef. Barring a few, you got some good advice and even sympathy. Now you are lashing out. Toptup apologized to you and yet you lash back at him .Let me tell you that attitude does you, your countrymen and your country no favors. Aviation is a very small world,believe it or not. Be respectful of people on your way up because,most certainly, you will meet them on the way down.

Finally,not to revise history, but you talk as if India was great prior to the British rule.LOL.It was a fragmented, caste ridden,hierarchial (look up that word in google) society and that is why the Brits, the French, the Dutch and the Afghan invaders succeeded. Nothing has changed in 600 years and nothing will.So quit beating the India drum and believing the rubbish you read in the newspapers. By beating your chest all you are doing is alienating the rest of the world and,in aviation, that is professional suicide.
And, as someone suggested, if you really want to fly,join the IAF or the Coast Guard. Of course, to do that you need a set of cojones(google again) and a great attitude.

Alt3.

IndAir967

22nd Sep 2009, 14:18

God knows why this thread has been started in the first place..
This thread is a good example for complete misuse of an useful tool..
Instead of fighting around on professionalism and training standards I ask the fresh CPL holders to improve ways better equip themselves to be employable..

Dont complain you dont have a job. You ve always known a situation like this might arise. If you were wise you would have some how got yourself equipped to be employable in the industry in one way or the other..

Also now that this thread has been started I would ask you guys to find out ways and discuss with the experienced ones on ways you can survive through this scenario..

Also I ask you guys to refrain from going into political issues of a country and stick only to our industry..

Also when senior colleagues of our industry such as top tup post on this forum .. appreciate it ! They are here only to share views and opinion and are by no way profitted by arguing with you. I can see top tup has had a really bad experience on this side of the planet and i am sure he would be happier if things on our side start getting better !
We always welcome your thoughts skipper..

Bonne Landings !