The Ground war: your thoughts?

[nosefirsteverytime]

Well, soldiers are on the ground in Afghanistan, so let's throw this out: what's your thoughts on the whole thing? Timing, type, tactics, what do you think should be happening? no one's asking you to provide top secret plans, speculation is enough (although no one's stopping you! :D ;) ). Let's get a lively debate going, hm?

I think I speak for most here in saying to them, God's speed and safe home.

[BEagle]

Well, I think that the Special Forces should invite that nasty Mr Laden to come out and explain his view on life, the Universe and everything to them. Then they should give him a first class sea trip back to the US in the loving care of the USMC before giving him a tour of the WTC site, including a 'meaningful discussion session' with the NYPD and FDNY. With no other witnesses.... If he survives that, then he should be given a pick and shovel, put into a chain-gang with his accomplices and worked non-stop until the WTC site is totally cleared. Before being summarily executed.

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[fobotcso]

Nah Beagle, why go to all that trouble? Just blow the bastard's brains out in an unfortunate accident.

Mr Whoeveryouare. We don't even speculate here. That is tantamount to doing the enemy's thinking for him. Now you wouldn't be..? Would you..?

[tony draper]

Billy Connoly came up with a half way decent answer to the apparent contradiction of dropping food parcels and high explosives together, Drop edible bombs. ;)

[Hagbard the Amateur]

A chick pea fragmentation device perhaps?

[Mike Cusack]

The CIA should smuggle him out, give him a sex change (without anesthetic) and put him back to live the life of a woman in Afghanistan.

[Spencer the Rover]

Having Rambled much of my life. I think "bumbling about in the Afgan Hill´s" waiting for him to show his face is a bad idea.
Why not invite him to form a coalition goverment like we do with all the other terrorists!

[Flatus Veteranus]

I thought that "Special Forces" used stealth and guile. There was far too much hype and publicity about the Rangers' raid. As for OBL, one comic I read opined that his bodyguards are under orders to bump himm off rather than let him be captured. That would save a lot of fuss and bother (and expensive trials etc)

[pana]

What an optimism!
Ragazzi, unfortunantely, I think that lot of black bags will be delivered to USA and others. As I see, you have been told that it is Bin Laden. My opinion is that Bin Laden is only the tip of an iceberg, he is not alone, for sure.
You will have to turn eagle's head to arrows. :cool:

[Roc]

roll roll,

You sound alot like the press during Desert Storm as they waxed eloquently about the awesome and fearsome "republican guards" these "elite warriors" ran like scared schoolgirls when confronted by a first class military! OBL's wacko-minions may talk a big game, but infa-red camera's perched high in outer space can track them and pick them off..our boys don't run, especially from 12th century tribeman! I'm sure casualties will occur, but there is no fear on the US side, just a hardened reserve to get the job done. Remember, its fashionable to portray Americans as fat, poorly dressed,loud etc. etc. but were the same people who stormed Normandy and Iwo Jima, and never turned tail! tougher battles have been fought, these jokers will be gone soon.

[Jackonicko]

Better to over-estimate the enemy and be proved wrong (as with the pi$$ poor Republican Guard) than to under-estimate them, and fall victim to complacency and under-preparation. Like in the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Somalia, the Lebanon, etc.

And if it's so easy, and if he and his henchmen can be so easily tracked how come Bin Laden's head isn't already on a spike, and how come we aren't already talking about it all in the past tense.

For what it's worth, these 12th Century tribesmen beat both Russian conscripts AND the Spesnatz and elite airborne troops, and it's all being fought on their territory. They seem no less dangerous than any of the other groups who've caused the US and Western military headaches and bloody noses in the past.

I hope and expect that the end result will be an inevitable US victory, but I'd be less sanguine that it will be entirely without pain and cost. I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that it's a casualty-free walk-over.

I'm beginning to think that it needs to be decisive and quick on the ground, because public (and especially international) support seems to be waning.

[ozbiggles]

Jacketc. I suggest to you public support is no less, it is just that the media has found more of the vocal minority to sell more advertising for them.

If you happen upon a Peace Rally do the following

STEP 1) Approach an ignorant, liberal person talking about peace and saying there should be "no retaliation."

STEP 2) Have a brief conversation with him and ask if military force is appropriate.

STEP 3) When he says, "No," ask him, "Why not?"

STEP 4) When he says, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful, and we should not cause more violence."

STEP 5) Punch him in the face, really hard.

STEP 6) When he gets up to punch you, point out to him that it would be a mistake to punch you (and contrary to his values) because he would be causing more violence.

STEP 7) When he agrees with you that he has pledged not to commit violence, punch him in the face again, only even harder this time.

STEP 8) Repeat steps 2 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.

[Roc]

Jackonicko,

Good point, I sometime let my emotions take over the keyboard, however, unlike some on this forum, I am impressed with the well thought out, calculating, and patient offensive mounted by the allies so far. As for why Osama's head isn't on a stick, how about this scenario.....we know where he's hiding, and were intercepting all his communications. Wouldn't it be a huge windfall of data/evidence of his network and who is running it??? food for thought. As long as we have him, we can thwart any other planned attacks and get further insight into the inner workings of his pathetic network. I'd like to believe this is whats happening. I still stand by my assertation of 12th century tribesmen, The average Russian, like the average Yank in Nam, didn't have their heart in the fight, its different here, and when you have the technology that we possess, coupled with the capability to exploit it, it is just too overwhelming for these criminals....time will tell.

[gijoe]

Mmmm, asymmetric operations using (mostly) conventional ( and yes, Royal Marines are conventional albeit very,very good) in a hostile environment that is about to get even more hostile when the snow comes using a weapon system that doesn't work properly but we might just get the new system to the troops that get pinged for the job in time wearing boots that were designed for the desert....or maybe not because we didn't have enough money to buy a pair of desert boots for everyone on Ex SS.

Rather you than me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool: Good to see that Airborne Ops do still have a role albeit in a very benign op.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Any old peasant rag head, can kill the most up to date stormtrooper with any pre 1900 rifle, of that there is no doubt, so immense care must be taken with all our troopers live's, but it is totally wrong of the newsgroups to give these Rag heads the title of soldiers, or even refer to them as an Army, they are not, they are a rabble of uneducated bully boys, take their weapons from them and then see how hard they are then, I don't think you would find one who could match any of the Americans or the Brits, who will be helping to sort out this skirmish, and as for our Allies, like Belgium or Saudi, seems time to cut them adrift, the Saudi's will soon start to scream like girls when they get their bit of civil unrest, and guess who they will ask to help, well when that happens, its time to remember who stood up this time. Good to see the Russians are seemingly on side,.. at least? arn't they?

I may be from a different time or mind set, but it is time to forget the niceties of human rights and the politically correct ways, and take out all those who have been involved in the Sept 11th, No trials, No prison terms, just taken out!!

George W was right when he said " Your either with us, or against us" anyone who is against us should be ended PDQ, and if we have any bleedings hearts in our Armed forces who can't handle that like in the last Arabian debacle then they should be out, and replaced.

[Jackonicko]

Roc,

Like I say, I hope that you're right, and that they're pygmies. But I think that their hearts are in it too!

xxxx

JN


VFR

From a different mind-set, or a different planet?

This kind of jingoistic ill-informed nonsense would be funny, were lives not at stake. To take issue with just one of your statements (I haven't time or energy for a full-on rant)

"it is totally wrong of the newsgroups to give these Rag heads the title of soldiers, or even refer to them as an Army, they are not, they are a rabble of uneducated bully boys, take their weapons from them and then see how hard they are then, I don't think you would find one who could match any of the Americans or the Brits"

Suggest you ask Tom Carew (ex-SAS chap who went out there to train them against the Sovs) whether or not they can fight, and whether or not they're fit. I wonder whether they're more well acclimatised to fighting in those Afghan mountains than Western troops? Couldn't be could they, untermensch that they are......

Grow up.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hi Jacko,

History tells us many things, one of them was that the SAS helped to train certain sections the Mujahaddin(spelling)not, and I repeat, not the Taliban. Seems also that you may be one of the jerks ( or could you be a bleeding heart)who is giving the Taliban the grander title's than they deserve, I'll stick with what I said, they are a Rabble of Bully Boys! who should be dealt with PDQ!

You sound like Belgium, would be just your bag!!

[Cat.S]

History also tells us that defeating the Afghans ia not the problem- occupying the country is where it goes pear shaped!

[pana]

Roc!
I started to doubt in my English.I didn't underestimate USA or others (I saw you at work), I just said that this sort of optimism is strange for me.It is childish and foolish, especially among proffessionals.
If you want to encourage yourself, OK. But it is the first time in your history to have external war expecting and having internal casualities (except Pearl Harbour, but it was at outskirts of your country). As I see, you expect, because of huge technological supremacy, that you will lose no one soldier. You wouldn't believe if I tell you how modern war technology can be easily confused and disabled, by very cheap tricks.After all , those 12th century tribemen learned to fly, coordinated that big action and... to not mention the result.
I wish you all the best and less as possible casualities, but...

P.S.
I have no such prejudices about Americans, as you told. On the contrary, good old Am's are just as others, but they have to finally realize that fact.
:cool:

[Roc]

RollRoll,

No offence taken at all by your post, Sorry if I came across a little peeved. I just can't give these guys as much credit as others, I know it is better to err on the safe side, but thats not my job thankfully.
Take care.

[Low and Slow]

Just a few points as people seem to rejoice in putting down the US Forces (whom I have worked with, and rarely found wanting)

Vietnam was a political loss, never military. - read A Better War - or do two years of research as I have - To be published by Random House in spring 2003

US Special Forces have performed more combat operations than anyone other NATO Spec Ops unit since 1945, the vast majority successful
Somalia. There were some dozen highly successful raids, before the disaster of Blackhawk down. The US Rangers and Delta killed about 10 times more than they lost and got CMH's.

The US Airborne are the most experienced Paratroopers in the World. Period. They have performed more Combat operations than anyone else.

The Russians only lost 15,000 in Afghanistan in 10 years! Only 1,500 a year. The vast majority very poorly trained conscripts. Sov. Airborne are very poor quality compared to NATO, as are their SPF troops, - who suffered very few casualties from the Afghans

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: Low and Slow ]

[kbf1]

VFR....just who exactly do you think the mujihadin became? Some joined the Northern Alliance, most joined the Taliban, and quite a few have changed sides each time a town is won or lost.

Rag Heads? poorly equipped and loosely trained as they are, they know the territory and the advantages it gives. They have nothing to loose. They are (misguided thought this is) fighting what they believe to be a devinely instituted war at the very hand of Allah. They did not sign the Geneva convention. They are committed to the utter destruction of the decadent west and the death of all Americans.

Even with the smartest of smart weapons the Serbs still managed to walk away from 3 months of sustained bombing having lost only a small amount of defunct military hardware. For the most part we were bombing carboard cut-outs. Firepower is only as good as the intelligence used to identify targets. Unfortunately the US do not cover themselves in glory when it comes to intelligence and target mis-idents, such as the Red Cross depot it bombed last week.

Since the end of the cold war the CIA have all but wound up its foreign operatives and relies too heavilty on technology to gain intel. Without eyes and ears on the ground it is impossible to gain a clear picture of events. Instead the US has relied on data from other governments which is notoriously unreliable. this is further exacerbated by the actions of the likes of the Belgians who delight in frustrating the process of sharing information (not to mention harbouring terrorists and putting sensitive information in the public domain).

The net result of this over reliance on technology is that the US is all but incapable of fighting a low-tech war on the ground. It should be noted that the Sept 11th attacks were very low-tech in comparison to anyt perceived threat of a nuclear strike from rogue nations that the "Son of Starwars" was supposed to prevent.

I doubt very much whether the US will have anything less than a very hard time, in spite of their apparent operational experience. Neither their doctrine nor their training is geared towards guerilla warfare of this kind.

[Roc]

Kbf1,

I have to disagree, You doubt the warfighting capabilities of US spec forces? I have spent many years with these guys and alot of what they do is hardly "high tech" actually most of it is decidedly low-tech. The difference here is they have the High tech "high ground" if needed, also the supply chain going to the Taliban is not the equivilent of what the Vietcong had or the Muhajadin, its probably non-existent. This fact alone will have a huge effect on the outcome...the problem I see is after these criminals are gone, can we stop the next generation? and don't say it can't be done. The Germans and Japanese seem to enjoy the fruits of freedom and they were as bitter enemies as one could imagine.

[Jackonicko]

VFR,

KBF did you the courtesy of responding carefully to your half-literate and ill-punctuated nonsense.

Shifting alliances and a tradition of inter-communal warfare means that the Taliban you despise are much the same, man for man, as any other Afghan fighter. You and I may not like them. You don't understand them, but I'd suggest that Taliban fighters are ill-equipped, ill-disciplined, but pretty effective guerrilla fighters. Under-estimate them as much as you want.

That's quite enough of my time wasted, so as a 'Bleeding Heart' 'jerk' who 'sounds like Belgium' (?) I'm now just going to resort to abuse, I'm afraid.

Pygmy!

[kbf1]

Roc, in terms of skills and drills US special forces are as good as any. My issue is more with the intelligence gathering operations, or more specifically the lack of them, undertaken by the USA.

Since the decline of the former Soviet Union the US has all but eradicated the use of field agents relying instead on spy satellites and second hand information from "friendly" governments. Part of the reason OB-L managed to launch the attacks in the first place was because of a lack of field intel.

The Gulf War was the first "push-button" war of modern warfare fought with systems developped in the late 80's. Most of those systems were as yet untried in a post-vietnam theatre and were reasonably successful. As a consequence the doctrines that were experimented with during the Gulf war, at least with the US, depended on the total air superiority in-theatre. It is worth noting that during the Gulf when it was assumed that air superiority was gained the element of command and control of air resources was abrogated from central planning not just to sqn commanders, but to individual pilots who were cleared to pick off and attack targets at will. The net result was an attack by A10 pilots on lines of Staffordshire Regiment Warrior armoured vehicles. When you read Gen de la Billiere's account of his command of British forces during the Gulf he talk explicitly of the approach he made to Gen Walt Boomer to establish the cause of the incident Gen Boomer went catatonic with rage blaming the Staffs for being in the wrong place even though they were well inside British lines and limits of exploitation. In fact, they were exactly where they should have been during that stage of the advance. The issue here is that the intelligence used to identify targets on the ground was out of date before it reached those on the front line with the relevant analysis. It is also worth noting that the US had fewer liaison officers serving alongside British forces as the British had attached to US forces. It is my opinion that more liaison officers (intel on the ground) attached to 1 UK Div may have prevented the mis-ident.

If we are to stand any chance of being successful in whatever mission (still undefined, but that is a seperate issue) is undertaken intelligence needs to come from the ground, not spy satellites and planes at FL450. For a good example of the what and why of field intel I suggest a book called "The Operators" by James Rennie which describes the activities of 14 Int in NI. In an environment as inhospitable as Afghanistan there are a million and one places to hide. If ground forces are to flush out OB-L they will need intel from intel on the ground from operatives who have infiltrated Al-Quaeda with inside knowledge. As it is the CIA cannot find Pashtuk speakers to translate information they have gained since Sept 11th, let alone train, insert, and work sleepers.

As it is the bombing raids have managed to destroy a village, a Red Cross station, and a mosque in the past 3 weeks. The only thing I doubt are the reported 1000 civilian deaths that the Taliban are reporting.

I would also be less concerned with the logistics chain of the Taliban. The main logistic effort is not with the infil stage of any operation, but the in-theatre support and the exfil which take up to 70% of the logistic main effort in support of any operation. This, of course, is assuming you know where OB-L is.

The fact is that the Pentagon have already voiced surprise that the Taliban are putting up a fight that they never expected. It seems that the Pentagon may have under-estimated the resiliance of the Taliban. Perhaps the estimate of Taliban morale and the main effort required to achieve the objective would be better made with more effective field intelligence?

Best of look to the 1000 Booties going onto the carriers tomorrow.

[ 25 October 2001: Message edited by: kbf1 ]

[tony draper]

I have to say where the Americans and the Brits are falling down this time is the PR.
Different spokesmen every night, contradicting each other, compared to the way information and the press were handled during the Gulf War this is pathetic.
We come across as indecisive fumbling and apologetic,that may or may not reflect reality, but if no hard information is given to the press in real time those bastards will just invent it.
It takes a couple of days to admit that a helicopter has crashed accidently and meanwhile the press are lapping up what the Taliban are claiming.
They need to get there act together, we are begining to look stupid.