VC10 Court Martial?

[Captain Kirk]

Can anyone shed some light on some news I heard about a VC10 crew being court martialled over a $14 phone bill. Something about the Chairman of the National Audit Office demanding that the case goes ahead, after the RAF chain of command insisted that there was no case to answer. Please tell me that this is not true! :confused:

[Cattivo]

Heard of this incident a while back (if its the same one).

The big cheese(dick) auditing fella was apparently in the queue behind the co-pilot and overheard the debate regarding the phone bill. As far as I'm aware the RAF told him to start looking for work in the airlines!

Its typical the way this outfit forces upon its people duties for which they don't have the proper training/time/qualification, and then hangs them out to dry when they screw up.

The imprest is a royal pain in the ass especially on a big, busy det. Pitfalls lie all over the place yet crews are given little protection against this and personally taken to the cleaners when it goes pear-shaped. :mad:

Rant over. What was the question again?

[BEagle]

Whilst any individual case may still be sub judice, the Blunt Ones should perhaps note that individuals may soon start refusing to carry large amounts of company cash with them and will pay bills only with a company credit card. Then crew allowances will need to be paid in advance either in cash or to an individual's bank account, leaving only unexpected itinerary changes to be dealt with upon return. Disputed bills will have to be referred directly to OC Accounts Flt. Captains will not sign Flight Sub Imprest paperwork, that again will be referred to OC Accounts Flight.

The archaic system of the co-pilots carrying large bags of swag around the world will have to stop and a much more realistic cashless system devised instead. It's time we moved on from the Dickensian system we have at present! Personally I prefer to use a debit card rather than cash; hence I've got various grubby little rolls of odd currencies stuffed into a beer tankard which I probably won't ever need; it would have been far better were they credited to my bank account in the first place and I'd only picked up nominal amounts of cash!

[Tanker Mate]

Apparently, the Court Martial commences on Monday. I understand it involves a Tristar co-pilot and not a VC10 crew. Personally, I hope that all co-pilots RAF wide refuse to hold imprests with immediate effect!!

[uncle peter]

it's the way things have to go, if anything at all happens down route powers that be are all too willing to hang the individuals out to dry; mmm remember reading something about loyalty once but it obviously doesn't matter.

mate at secret wilts base down route in notorious hotel - several thousand blats stolen from imprest lodged in hotel safe week before so matey locks imprest in box in locked suitcase. suitcase broken into , money half inched, mate hung out to dry.

quick question - how much formal training has any other capt / co received in conducting an imprest properly. i had a half hour sit down which concentrated on where most people fek up. considering the amount of money usually involved, and that several imprests may be underway at any given time, the powers that be owe a duty of care to the imprest holder that they should be properly trained for the task. the effects of the CM will undoubtedly alter the way imprests are conducted in future.

[15/15 flex]

Please tell me this isn't happening.....and over a phone bill? "Formal" training isn't the issue here, although I hope it's used as a defence, but more the trust that is put in the FSI holders. As BEagle alluded to, if this is the way of things to come, then individual claims must be the only way forward. The hotel room only can be paid by one individual, on an approved card. Everything else - calls to ATFOC, handlers, caterers etc - will have to be justified by the individual making the claim on return to home station.

I know nothing of this case, but as a former FSI holder, I hope that justice will be done. And when I come back, I will never again sign the Aircraft Captain's declaration on the Imprest paperwork.

[Art Field]

I was just thinking how lucky uncle Peter was to have a whole half an hour briefing on imprests. I remember all too many occasions when you add it all up and a sinking feeling comes over you as you realise things do not balance and it's always wrong against you. If you add the uncomfortable impression that everbody is aware your carrying a large amount of instantly negotiable currency (the staff at reception know only too well whats in the envelope) then it surely is a flight safety hazard if nothing else. Perhaps the fact that the services can no longer hide behind personal liabilities exemption might be worth investigating here.

[Tigs]

And they wonder why people are leaving in droves! Who ever the bean counter is, I hope his next s*** is a hedgehog. :(

[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: Tigs ]

[Shackman]

At least when I made a c***-*p as co pilot with imprest, all I got was banned from holding imprests. Unfortunately, this was not carried forward to next tour. However, soon found other lowly life form on crew to hold said instant court martial bag - my own co pilot. And this was nearly 30 years ago. I would love to have seen the system change for the better, but it seems the bean counters have more clout than the cannon fodder! :mad:

[maniac55]

As I have mentioned on a previous thread, it's time we renamed the RAF to reflect the true nature of the service - The Royal Accounts & Admin Force.

[Tripe Loch]

The company credit cards are useless because the anti-fraud measures kick in if large amounts are paid too frequently or in different areas too quickly. Just perfect for a a Fat Albert trying to get to and from Red Flag! The MOD refused to have the anti-fraud taken off and stand any losses. The upshot - Lyneham crews will be taking large denomination notes as a back up to pay hotel bills when the card's refused. Way to go RAF... :confused:

[Captain Kirk]

To repeat, and just to keep the balance, I believe (not sure) that the RAF chain of command insisted that there was no case to answer (as far as the AOC) but the Civil Serpent demanded that proceedings go ahead. If true, then I do not think that the RAF should take the heat over this one. Somebody needs to present the final Court Martial bill (ignoring the adverse impact upon morale)to this dangerous fool and ask him exactly where the Value For Money was. Presumably, there will have been a number of (club class?) trips to the hotel (Nairobi?) to gather evidence. Way to go. I am still waiting for someone to tell me that I have got it all wrong and that no-one would waste so much money when we are all trying to tighten our belts. Someone...please!? :confused: :confused:

[gijoe]

Why doesn't someone in the know give the Sun (or maybe something a bit more authoratitive) a ring and inform them of how much of the public's money is being wasted on this case ?

The Chairman of the NAO may then be called to justify his actions.It's nearly as good as not giving desert combat boots to those going to the desert in Oman :rolleyes:

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: gijoe ]

[lids]

one final point. Heard that the person making the complaint is a Labour Councillor on a fact finding trip who was staying in the same hotel. Miserable b*****d.

[Tigs]

Flash-Heart

Nobody on this thread has said anything that would cause any form of deformation of character to the individual concerned. Everybody on the thread is in fact supporting him or her and the more people that read the fact the the bean counter is a W*****, the better.

[Uncle Ginsters]

So just who is running this Air Farce?
The real Court Martial should be to lynch the powers-that-be that auth'd and 18 month P&SS inquiry sending several people to sunny NBO to investigate an $18 bill !! It's a situation that just about any of us could find ourselves in and it's good to see the Investors In People are looking after their own. Just hope no more examples need to be made before this ridiculous system is changed

Uncle G

[Capt Widebody]

I know and have had the pleasure of going through flying training and working with the individual concerned. Without commenting on the facts of this case, which BEags rightly points out, would not really be appropriate, I would like to add my vote of support to him in this shambolic trial which is a bigger misuse of public funds than any imprest officer could ever hope to achieve.

I sincerely hope that if anything other than a full acquittal comes of this, that the MOD has in place an alternative system by which to administer pay and allowances whilst down-route, detached or deployed. This kind of pathetic witch-hunt should not be allowed to go on. Are the hierarchy really casting doubts on the integrity and trustworthyness of the same individuals responsible for the safe operation of millions of pounds of military hardware, and the safety of many lives? Well, I guess they are now.

The message to all who hold imprests is clear from this: don't worry about cancelling the sortie, letting the team down, missing your slot times or all the knock-on problems this may cause; just get the financial paperwork right. Remember the priorities: paperwork - accountability - flight safety - mission. :mad:

I am lucky to have had the supports of an extremely good, flexible and understanding accounts flight, so I choose the following words carefully: some of you bean counters out there have obviously no concept of the "Mission Bubble"? If you fall into this category, then I suggest you contact your SFSO (once you've found out who he is). He can show you the reports about people who have thrown aircraft away, or crashed and died due in part to external stressors such as the pressures of mixing extraneous paperwork with the often difficult flying task. If you still don't have any empathy for the operators, then get some help from the shrinks.

Rant Over.

Now then, for the two of you who sent out the unnoficial communication, it was widely received, thanks. I have left you both messages. You have my support and pledge for £25, should it be required. I really hope it doesn't come to this!

[Captain Kirk]

CWB,

My original question was genuine, namely 'Is this really true - surely not!' I am deeply disappointed that it appears so.

Lord Flash,

Given the above, I would certainly not wish to compromize the proceedings and agree that this thread should lie low. I have considered deleting it in toto but, in the first instance, hope that the proper restraint can be exercised. Needless to say, I am very interested to see the outcome. I hope that justice is served - please keep us apprised.

Parting shot, and acutely aware that I do not have all the facts of the case but, on the face of it at least, this type of incidence saddens me deeply. I love my profession and Service - the damage done to morale and trust by incidents like this are out of all proportion to the (alleged) event.

In the meantime, I trust that honest endeavour will be recognized and that the (alleged) poisonous instigator is called to account!

Beam me up!

[D-IFF_ident]

I think we can all agree that the instigator is definitely called account! :rolleyes:

[Reichman]

I think that we're finally realising that the aircrew aren't important in the RAF any more.

I know I'm probably being very naive, but isn't everybody supposed to support the AIRcrew in the Royal AIR Force?

Why don't accounts flight open when it's convenient for US?

If Admin Wg get behind in the paperclip counting, why don't they come in at the weekend (and meet some AIRcrew) instead of shutting the whole place down.

If cocking an imprest up is so serious, why don't the f***ing accounts do it?

Good luck to the individual involved. Anyone know the name of the squealer? Go on out him.

Rant off.

Reichman.

[FJJP]

Presumably the squealer will be called to give evidence at the CM (best evidence). Remember that Courts Martial are public trials. Ergo, his name should be plastered all over the press. Hoorah! :D :D :D

[Lowkey]

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[ShyTorque]

Diff-ident,

Yes, take CO away from Account and what have you left?

The bu@@ers made me take 11,000 pounds cash to Denmark in the early 1980's. It filled a second navbag and there was no safe at the task location so I spent 2 weeks cuddling it and using it as a pillow. It was definitely a flight safety hazard as I didn't get much sleep. I brought most of it back unused and unissued.

Thank goodness I now work for someone with a brain who gives me a Diners card and allows me to sign stuff off when the bills come in.

ShyT

[Taffmerlin]

Innocent! Enjoy your well deserved drink with your friends today.

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: Taffmerlin ]

[Junior Jet Club]

Well done to the Person concerned.

As I promised to him this pm, here are the details of his solicitor. If anyone has any problems, give Tony a shout, he will sort you out:

Tony Miles
Bobbetts Mackan Solicitors
17 Berkley Square
Clifton
BRISTOL
BS8 1HB
Tel: 0117 929 9001
Fax: 0117 922 5697

If you weren't there, it was GREAT seeing him rubbish the prosecution's witnesses with such ease! If Tony ever winks, you know you're doing well. :D

[uncle peter]

thank god for that. could someone pass on my best wishes please - the majority of imprest holding ppruners were rooting for him.

so when does the NAO investigation into such a blatant and unnecessary waste of money start?

[Junior Jet Club]

Sorry to keep putting up replies, but it will be interesting to see what side of the argument the "Daily Mail" and the the "Daily Telegraph" take on this as they were the 2 papers there to report the details.

[Reichman]

An excellent, and obviously correct, result.

I presume that the person/people who brought about this whole unnecessary affair will be held ACCOUNTable and pay the costs.

Anybody written to the Sun yet? :D

[Big Green Arrow]

I hope that the papers have a 'kin field day with this....it must have cost us the tax payer in excess of £500k for that pile of shoyte. It makes me spit....all that crap for $18. What the fek are we playing at? Is this the way to go for a 'modern' Air Force?

I held an imprest that was given to me for an exped. The civvy that gave me my 5 min brief told me I could use it for unforseen circumstances if the need arose. It did..a 10 hour delay at a Southern French Airport, so I did use it...and copped the crap when I got back. The 'Civvy' denied all knowledge and claimed to have given me a 'thorough' 1 hr brief...I must have dozed off! Needless to sy it cost me nearly £150. Arse Biscuits and hoop to the lot of 'em

Rant finishes

Well done to the innocent party - whoever you are! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 28 September 2001: Message edited by: Big Green Arrow ]

[Captain Kirk]

Only fitting to add my congrats - justice served!

I would still be interested to know if the RAF was FORCED to press the case - let's see the blame fall where it really belongs.

Eagerly awaiting tomorrow's Telegraph!

[Mowgli]

My sympathy to those of you who have to put up with this c--p. A few years back I was informed that I would be arrested over allegations of fraud during my time in Italy for the Balkans. As it turned out, 2 of my guys had put in a false claim (about £40 each)which I had countersigned just before going on a mission - part of the "Italian job". Although I was cleared of any wrongdoing, the lack of loyalty shown to me by the hierarchy in that I knew I had not done anything knowingly wrong was part of why I'm no longer with you guys - and I was one of those who lived and breathed for the job - ironically I received my Bosnia medal the same month I was told I would be arrested. Johnny Rotten was behind that BA recruitment drive - a man I had little respect for after flying with him in one of his jets when he displayed poor airmanship and broke his own rules. It sounds like the right outcome has happened in this case, I hope you are being lead by real men with big balls who will put the umbrella up for you over these crazy events. I know you'll do your duty if required in the current world situation, but make sure that when you've done one of the most demanding jobs you can ever do, that you cross the Tees and dot the Is because the P+SS and the beancounters will be after you if you don't.

I hope the git who reported this gets hung by his bo--ocks from a high place.

[BEagle]

From today's Torygraph:

'Fraud bill belonged to RAF superior' By Richard Savill (Filed: 29/09/2001)

A ROYAL AIR FORCE officer accused of falsifying expenses while on duty in Kenya was cleared yesterday after a court martial heard that the hotel bill concerned belonged to his superior officer.

The prosecution was made after a Tory councillor in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, who happened to be staying on holiday in the same hotel, complained to the Auditor-General in Britain. Flt Lt Derek Oetzmann, 29, was alleged to have charged private telephone calls amounting to 5005 Kenyan shillings (£47) to an RAF account, after negotiating with hotel staff to disguise them on the bill as breakfasts.

Emile Al-Uzaizi, 48, was in a queue behind Fl-Lt Oetzmann and other RAF officers at the hotel reception desk when the bill was paid, and claimed that he overheard Flt Lt Oetzmann negotiating with a cashier for the calls to appear as breakfasts. But Judge Advocate Paul Camp dismissed the case, saying that the Royal Air Force Police investigation had been inadequate, and suggested instead that there should be a police investigation into the actions of Sqn Ldr Al Green.

He said: "The reality is that if anyone is guilty of anything, he is much more the guilty party. They were his calls. It is, however, wrong to assume he is guilty at this stage."

Flt Lt Oetzmann, the credit card holder, who is stationed at RAF Brize Norton, Oxon, has taken part in operations in the Balkans, and last year carried his squadron's standard at the Battle of Britain 60th anniversary service at Westminster Abbey. He was staying at the hotel with other RAF pilots in February last year, after taking soldiers to Kenya for an exercise, codenamed Grand Prix.

Mr Al-Uzaizi wrote to the Auditor-General, who passed the complaint on to the Ministry of Defence. The ensuing RAF Police investigation and five-day court martial at RAF Brize Norton were thought to have cost up to £30,000. The court martial heard that none of the reception staff was spoken to during the initial police investigation. Printed telephone records were not made available until the final day of the hearing.

Dismissing the case the judge said: "I feel the police investigation was handled very badly. It must have been blindingly obvious that it was important for the receptionist to be interviewed. He added: "The process of collecting evidence at a meaningful stage has not taken place."

The judge said a fair trial could not take place, and he told Flt Lt Oetzmann: "This is a decision for all time. Even if it turned out that Sqn Ldr Green did make private calls there is no way that this can be re-opened against you."

Tony Miles, solicitor advocate for Flt Lt Oetzmann, said his client was "absolutely delighted that after 18 months this whole thing is over". He added: "He has had a good career in the RAF and he is looking forward to getting back to it without being preoccupied by matters that shouldn't have preoccupied him. The decision to prosecute was clearly taken at a time when all the information was not available. Fortunately it has turned out in a way that is satisfactory from my client's point of view. He is completely exonerated. My client has always maintained this was a false allegation. He is just very relieved. The pressure he has been under has been huge."

Mr Miles added: "The way in which the investigation was carried out meant it was not possible for us to have a fair trial. Evidence that may well have supported my client's position was no longer available through a lapse of time."

[FJJP]

I wish I lived in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham - I would be sorely tempted to go over councillors' expenses with a fine tooth comb. Just to make sure that the said individual is squeeky clean.

[Broken Wings]

I too have had the onerous task of handling/oversigning imprests when I was in and it seems to me it now HAS to change.

The current system is from the dinasaur age. Aircrews of all brevets earnt them because of hard/expensive/professional training and because some one has certified that they are entrusted with other peoples safety. So trust them with their own Amex card account and let them settle their bills individually and leave the co-pilot to do his proper job. If some one screws up it doesn't then focus on the Co.

My advice to Flt Lt Oetzmann is sue the MOD after taking advice from his Solicitor. The Judge was damning of the MODs handling of the case just the like a Judge did earlier this year in my case. It will be a slow process and the MOD will try to grind you down but eventually they will pay up if you know you're in the right. I've receieved an interim but I'm not quite at full settlement yet.

One thing for sure is in his and my case the RAF departments who are supposed to be there to support the Frontline and its personnel have woefully let them down.

And they wonder why people leave?

[Capt Widebody]

Great News, Del Boy

The cash I had pledged for your legal fund will be spent in a manner I know you'll approve of.

It does sound like the RAFs hand was forced here, but hopefully some good will come from this farce. It will obviously be no consolation to you, but if this in any way helps the powers that be to at least look at changing this archaic system we have then that will be a start.

Best of luck with your case.

[D-IFF_ident]

If we retain the outdated FSI system then the very least that should be done is to remove the burden from the pilots and hand it to someone with time, a table and no requirment to fly an aeroplane. OC Accts at Brize did release a letter in about July 1999 giving authority for SNCOs to carry FSIs. This was after Co-pilots from all Sqns lobbied to get the ALMs to run the imprest. All looked rosey for a very short while until the Co-pilots were told that imprest holding and the associated accounting is good, character building stuff and promotes Officer Qualities.

The letter is available from the FSI office.

I refer to my previous posts about Flight Safety and would hope that they no longer appear quite so 'Am-Dram'.

Congratulations Del.

[maniac55]

Something which we at Ice Station Kilo have been doing for about a year. The problem is, the briefings are still inadequate and, the burden of responsibilty for the Det's finances rests with one individual. :(

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: maniac55 ]

[Art Field]

Congrats to the guy involved. In spite of the collosal waste of money there is still the thought that, had the white hats done there job properly, things may have turned out differently. Not because of guilt but by implied guilt using the service principle that if you are causing me hastle you are guilty. Surely it must be possible to stop the imprest system within some legislation like the human rights (untrained for the task), every little snotty-nose seems to be able to use it.

[Titan Locked]

Apparentely if you type the words "emile al-uzaizi" in your search engine you will be able to put a face to the name. Allegedly.

Not putting in a link means you have the choice to look or not !! I think.

Surprised to find he is a Tory counciller, what with their record on sleaze !!

Glad to see it was all thrown out. Maybe this will see the start of a much needed review in how allowances/expenses are paid to individuals.

TL

[BEagle]

Let's get a reality check. The person who complained may have thought that he was listening to a routine method used by some to diddle HMG out of some dink. Reasonably, he may have felt righteous indignation and, as an elected public servant, felt that he needed the event investigated. But, in reality, he may have overheard the attempts of a frustrated account settler trying to sort out which were 'official' and which were 'private' calls on an hotel phone bill which was probably about as readable as a table of logarithms - and who might just have wanted to find an easy way out of the tortuous paperwork beloved of the Blunt Ones and was naiively looking for a creative solution to settle up and get away schnell.

But why would there be any phone calls on an hotel bill in the first place? We're supposed to use the Colt calling card for official calls or, if no land line is available, the Captain's GSM phone (and there are GSM networks in Kenya). The Blunt Ones have told us repeatedly that 'official' calls are only to be made from hotel phones in exceptional circumstances - however, I know full well that some people either simply can't be ar$ed to do as they've been told, or consider themselves above such orders.

This seems to have been a quest for a pound of flesh which failed. I don't blame the councillor for this farce - I blame the clumsy attempts by Plod to find Chummy 'Bang to Rights'. If there was any case to answer, why didn't someone just get a grip and say "Silly thing to do - get the money back from whoever owed it and we'll call the matter closed", instead of wasting a ridiculous amount of time and public money on an absurd witch hunt. The obscene pursuit of a hapless individual over such a matter was clearly out of all proportion to the allegations made and whoever made the daft decision to proceed should be hung out to dry!!.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Big Green Arrow]

I stand corrected over the money spent...but you can bet it was probably more than £30K. Hear,Hear Beags.


Sqn Ldr Green...well,well Al, it doesn't seem like 2 mins since we were doing our PPLs at Marshalls, then meeting again at SBY...what was happening in your room after the Summer Ball 1990?

[massingbird]

We didn't have Captain's GSM phones at the time and it is impossible to use the calling cards in many (most?) hotels because the systems deliberately prevent it.

Checking crews out of hotels in Africa is always an uphill struggle and getting a correct bill can be a challenge. Arguing over items on bills is not unusual but does not mean that anything dodgy is taking place. On the contrary it is usually the imprest holder trying to make sure that the paperwork is an accurate representation.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: massingbird ]

[BEagle]

In which case there was every justification for making official calls from an hotel room. Furthermore, your explanation about the check out is 100% understandable by anyone who has had to put up with the same thing - who could easily have told Plod that - and attempts made by an imprest holder to resolve doubtful items should have merited wholehearted support, not envy and suspicion, given the circumstances.

Well - you took 30 seconds to convince me. So why did it take Plod so long to make a total bolleaux of everything and to cause £30 000 (surely a very conservative estimate) of your and my tax to be wasted on this nonsense? Not to mention the distress and insult caused to the acquitted.

[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[D-IFF_ident]

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/have_your_say/council/Councillors/A-Z_by_name/Al-Uzaizi__Emile/al-uzaizi__emile.html

[massingbird]

I know that Del would like to thank everyone who was on side during this whole debacle, those who pledged support before the trial and all those who came along and supported him last week.

Lets just hope that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

[Mr C Hinecap]

I fully support the guys involved here - the Feds are once again at home to Mr Cockup.

Lets not forget that imprests are there as much for the junior ranks flying as for the flight deck. Some of our Ground Eng & MAMS guys get short notice trips & are slightly short of the folding stuff. We do have to carry cash - there just HAS to be a better way.

[Farfrompuken]

Congrats Del!!

Sorry I couldn't be there to offer my support, I was otherwise disposed of!
You can use my pledge for a worthy cause in 'Combers asap!

It's about time we adopted a more mature system, and gave everyone a credit account similar to the BA system. On the widebody fleet, you're struggling to go anywhere you can't use a card, and if you have doubts, take some hard currency B4 you go. The whole imprest system is flawed, and the errors hit the holder hard. Serious thoughts should go into whether they can be carried at all, when you've got a load of morons out there trying to catch you out for doing your job.

Del, I hope you can chill out now, and get on with enjoying your career, if that's at all possible given the ride you've had so far.

I hope the clowns that tried to bring this charge against you are dealt with in a suitable manner.

Rgds, Farfrom.... :D :cool: :p :D