New Blues Song - "What’s EASA Got to Do with It?"

[flingwing1]

In the beginning there was the FAA and its FARs. Then came the JAA with its JARs.

Now, we’ve got the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) and I’m not sure what they have <grin>.

EASA took over authority from the JAA for European Union air law on 30 June 2009. The JAA is no more. However, I cannot find much on the EASA web site about the requirements for getting an Air Operator Certificate (AOC) or the regulations for scheduled (Part 121) and non-scheduled (Part 135) air operators.

If you complete a site search for some of those terms, you'll get returned search hits. However, when you go to a page (each one a slow loading PDF!) you’ll only find talk about “NPA - Notice of Proposed Amendment(s)”). You won’t find a list of air regulations.

Worse, the JAA web site no longer has any regulations and directs you to a private company’s website (IHS) that sells them. However, all the JARs are “no longer available” except for JAA JAR-OPS 1 for $175.

So what is everyone using now who operates under the former JARs? And where are that authority's regulations? Thanks much.

[411A]

I suspect the confusion in all this EASA/JAA nonsense is intended to....submit maximum Euro's please, then we will tell you.

Of course, if one is in FAA-land, all the informatiuon is on line, and free of charge.
A sensibale alternative.:rolleyes:

[doubleu-anker]

Another verse.

"A bigger bunch of retards... I've yet to meet".

For goodness sake have these people never heard of K.I.S.?!

[172_driver]

Last I heard, EASA OPS and FCL are coming out April 2011 - at earliest.

[DA-10mm]

Amen, 411A.

Amen...

[merlinxx]

You want a UK AOC, go to the UK CAA, each individual state issues an AOC until as such time as EASA is in a position to issue a pan-Euro AOC.:ugh:

[Yak97]

JAR OPS was replaced by EU OPS (EU-OPS was issued under Annex III to Regulation (EC) No. 3922/1991 as amended), a transition to the full EASA OPS stage.

Look at this CAA FODCOM (03/2008 - now cancelled) which gives you links to find the relevant documents

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200803.pdf

All UK Operators now have AOC's issued in accordance with EU OPS not JAR OPS (Not that there is a great deal of difference between the two - but the devil is in the detail!).

[His dudeness]

I hate it when 411A is right, but here he is.

The EASA is yet another creation of Euro nature, useless, overboarding crap with a even greater detachment from reality than JAA and the former national authorities ever had. Rules are changed on a weekly basis and the lads at the national authorities just lay them out as they please. Fukc that I say.

On the other hand, from what I´ve heard, the FAA and TSA are not necessarely nice to deal with...

Common sense and the willingness to make regulations workable are dead. Long live the EU.

[flingwing1]

You guys are pretty good at this EASA-JAA stuff <grin>. Thanks for the planned date of those EASA regs, 172driver. And Yak97's reference to that (UK) CAA document for obtaining a “bridging” AOC was good for outline material of operation manual needs.

Question: Does any web site have the - now superceded - JARs available for download for free? I guess if a site did make the JARs available, the site owner could be in violation of copyright laws. But who knows, some brave soul would risk imprisonment for the sake of “people power”<g>.

[CargoOne]

I think your confusion is coming from lack of exprecience with EU regualtions.

1. JAR OPS is no longer valid and replaced by EU OPS which is issued as EC Regulation and available free of charge in all european languages on EurLex and many other websites along with other related regulations.

2. Basic rules on operator certification are contained in EU OPS, however EASA is not certifying carriers, it is down to national aviation authorities who may have some additional requirements and procedures. You need to contact your national european authority to get more info.

3. There is no such thing as Part-121 or Part-135 in EU. There is a singe regulation covering everyone commercial starting from single Cessna Mustang operator up to Lufthansa and KLM/AirFrance.

4. Don't worry about NPA, this is not something of a daily concern for EU operators.

5. I somehow guess you looking to setup an airline in Euroland without having first hand knowledge of regulations here. If I'm about to do that in the States with very sketchy knowledge of FAA regualtions, I would employ someone who knows. Recommend you to do the same.

[Malcom]

4. Don't worry about NPA, this is not something of a daily concern for EU operators.

Ignore these at your peril - you really do need to know which garden path you are going to be led down, where, at the end of which, your trousers will be forcibly removed before your wallet is removed from them, and you are left wondering WTF.:confused:

[happybiker]

Flingwing

Take a look at this link to the JAA. You will see that JAR OPS 1 at Amdt 13 is available as a complete download. JAR OPS at Amdt 14 shows that EC OPS has superseded JAR OPS for fixed wing commercial operations with effect from 16 July 2008. JAR OPS 3 is still applicable for rotary wing commercial operations. This is also available from this JAA site as a down load.

JAA | Operations (http://www.jaa.nl/operations/public_area.html)

[flingwing1]

“. . . confusion is coming from lack of exprecience with EU regualtions”.

No doubt, that’s my problem. However, trying to get your mind wrapped around any new regulatory system takes time as you figure out what everything is called in the new system and where it is in the regs.

Some reg systems are more difficult than others. Not making the JARs available for free to new learners and, with the new EASA laws not yet (fully) drafted, the EU makes its system’s learning curve virtually impossbile to master for anyone without deep pockets to buy the regs sight unseen.

Thanks for the tip on the EUR-Lex site. Its “free access to European Union law” sounded good. I’d been there once before but quickly left because I found nothing in its set menus (on the left) about EASA or air laws. This time I tried a search. I plugged in EU OPS and nothing much came back. But I did see the term is “EU-OPS”, so I tried that.

Now I got 2 full pages of search returns - about 20 hits. The descriptions are mind-numbing. Below is an example:

------
52006PC0128
Communication from the Commission to the European Parliament pursuant to the second subparagraph of Article 251 (2) of the EC Treaty concerning the Common position of the Council on the adoption of a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Council Regulation (EEC) n° 3922/91 on the harmonisation of technical requirements and administrative procedures in the field of civil aviation (EU-OPS) /* COM/2006/0128 final - COD 2000/0069 */
-----
And that’s just the title. The real information about that - whatever it is - is shown below. NOTE: this is only a few lines of the text for the "EU-OPS" search. This gibberish goes on for several pages about how the EU loves meeting and discussing things.
----
[pic] | COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES |
Brussels, 14.3.2006
COM(2006) 128 final
2000/0069 (COD)
COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
pursuant to the second subparagraph of Article 251 (2) of the EC Treaty concerning the Common position of the Council on the adoption of a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Council Regulation (EEC) n° 3922/91 on the harmonisation of technical requirements and administrative procedures in the field of civil aviation (EU-OPS)
[cut]
----

Now, listen, if that looks anything like an air law, I’ll buy you a Starbucks at the location of your choosing. If really that European web site has Euro laws for free, then please tell me - step by step - where they are on that site. I may not know about the JARs or the EASAes - but I do know how to use a search engine. And that site's engine is too damned difficult.

Make you another bet. Try the "Advanced Search" and tell me if you can find EU-OPS in less than 15 seconds. It can't be done.

Thanks for the effort of giving me a clue but I’ve got a bad feeling about these EASA laws - they’re going to look like an elephant built by a committee. And the EU's search engines are made by people who should be committed to a mental hospital <grin>.

[CargoOne]

Section 1 of all JARs used to be a free publication. Section 2 was commercial.

I don't quite understand why someone is hunting for JARs those days if the only JAR still valid and used is JAR FCL?

EU OPS and JAR FCL (section 1) links are here
Certification | OEB Supporting Documents (http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/c/c_flightstandards_oeb_docs.php)

Understandning the regulations structure and framework first will cause less frustration afterwards I guess.

p.s. I forgot there is still JAR OPS 3, my fault, I'm not a helicoper man

[Ancient Observer]

Flingwing,
Quit moaning. If you want an AOC, decide where you want to base yourself, and go to that country's version of the CAA.
End of.

(As an aside, I do hope that EASA never actually issues AOCs - but that's a different story).

If you want something else - specify it, and the patient souls on here might well help. Just looking up JAA stuff is boring in the extreme. It always was.

[flingwing1]

Thanks for that link, Cargo1, that was spot on. Later, I’m going to reverse engineer the URL to find out how you got there from the EU homepage <grin>.

The reason I’m looking for JARs is because some people in this world - outside the EU and USA - think the JARs are an alternative to the FARs. In many developing countries - 1/3 of the planet - air laws are not detailed and usually poorly written. So when writing company manuals (AOC required) that not only exceed the local government’s requirements, but also help keep aircraft from falling out of the sky, some company owners look to the FAA and, for some years, the JAA for guidance.

I remember when the JARs were first published. They seemed to me either sketchy or wordy and the order of regs didn’t seem “right”. Admittedly, some of that could have been my years dealing with the FARs. Still, after the JAA and FAA decided to stop being miffed with each other, and started harmonizing the rules, both improved their regs.

Take for example, the JAR OPS 1 I just downloaded from Biker’s tip at <www.jaa.nl>. I found Subpart P, Rule 1.1040 - General Rules for Operations Manuals miles better than the FAR’s rule for its operations manual contents.

And until today from this forum, I didn’t know that the JARs were already superceded by EASA. I also didn’t know that the new EASA regs won’t be ready for "prime time" until 2011. That seems like a step backwards for the original idea of standardized national air laws.

Nevertheless, there are still company manuals around in developing countries based on the JARs. Because of a requirement, I need to learn about the JARs so I can either use them to improve existing manuals or suggest the owners switch to the FARs as a rule basis, or even a combination of both.

I’m just starting this active involvement with the JARs. As you suggested my work the JARs may end in a week if it’s really a dead end street.

Thanks again for the URL tip.

[flingwing1]

Quit moaning.
Hello AC, that wasn’t moaning. It was full-bore “complaining” <grin>. I never said I wanted an AOC, you said that. I am looking for the regs that help make manuals required for an AOC and until recently, that meant either the JARs or the FARs.

The JARs are still referenced by a people in countries other than those in Europe. See my reply (#16) to CargoOne's post for more.

And if you “hope that EASA never actually issues AOCs” doesn’t that mean that the dream of a standardized European air law environment is stillborn?

[CargoOne]

flingwing1,

If you go to Google (http://www.google.com) and enter there eu ops the very first link it will show you is http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:254:0001:0238:EN:PDF

This is EU OPS. I cannot image how more simple than that it could be.

I don't quite understand your task, but if I was you I would start from learing the framework and structure of regulations rather than picking up individual things first. However it can take a considerable time and efforts. Transition from national to JAR then to EASA regualtions took many years in Europe and all people been constantly learning new things through the years. Don't be dissapointed if you can't catch of this in those couple of hours you spent on internet...

[pilotbear]

EASA are just a consultancy agency (not a governing body) asked by the European Parliament to look at the current regulations and make recommendations for changes. However, they did more than that and elicited reaction and comment from the various different nations. This was not their brief and it took too long so when they reported this back to The EU parliament they were told it as too late and the recommendations will now happen regardless of objections and now it is not up for discussion until 2012. Another complete waste of taxpayers money.
Anyway that is how I understand it but who knows the truth.:ok:

I have to agree also after spending a lot of time in 411a land that the FAA do seem to have it right in a lot of areas.

[Volume]

In the beginning there was the FAA and its FARs. Then came the JAA with its JARs.
Now, we’ve got the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) and I’m not sure what they have <grin>.

Lots of the FARs/JARs are called CS (Certification Specification) by EASA and can be found here (http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/g/rg_certspecs.php).
If really that European web site has Euro laws for free, then please tell me - step by step - where they are on that site. I may not know about the JARs or the EASAes - but I do know how to use a search engine. And that site's engine is too damned difficult.
You can be sure, if it is not on the EASA homepage, you don´t need to follow it ;) . You will find all documents for free (quite an improvement over JAA and IHS!), but I fully agree with your evaluation of the search engine and the homepage design. "damned dificult" is a quite polite description of this.
The menu on top of the page will probably not win a webdesign-award, but with a little luck it will take you to the document you are looking for.
Maybe IHS will sell you a list of direct links :}

[flingwing1]

Maybe IHS will sell you a list of direct links http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifIf that's the way it's going to work, we're in the wrong business <grin>.
----------------

I just looked at the page with the Certification Specifications. That's good, but mostly for manufacturers, I think. Thanks.

Remember, for me this "JARs-as-an-alternative-to-FARs" thing, started because some people in remote places have made their required company manuals based on the JARs. It wasn't necessarily because the JARs were better than the FARs, but maybe just because these remote places had more of an affinity to European air law culture than the USA's.

With the situation as it is now: (1) the JARs are no more, (2) the EASA regs aren't ready for complete promulgation, and (3) at least a partial return to the many invidualized national air laws of each EU member, I wonder what companies with JAR-based regs are going to do when updating/revising their written manuals?

[Ancient Observer]

FW

clarity helps.
If you'd said first time around that you want to use JAAs stuff to write a manual for a not-quite-first-world AOC aspirant, you'd have got the URL quite quickly! Lots of EuOps stuff is a simple lift from the earlier docs, but as a previous poster said, the devil is in the detail.

EASA are a French political entity, with a Politically chosen base in Germany.

That's why I don't want them issuing AOCs. They don't have, and won't be able to acquire the capability. The Airlines' beancounters want it, tho. Never mind safety, feel the cost!!!

[CargoOne]

With the situation as it is now: (1) the JARs are no more, (2) the EASA regs aren't ready for complete promulgation, and (3) at least a partial return to the many invidualized national air laws of each EU member

Above is not correct.

[Bus429]

EU-OPS - EU regulation, not EASA (Part OPS to come). EU-OPS applies for fixed wing ops but JAR OPS 3 still applies for rotary wings.

[Kolossi]

I know this doesn't address the central issue of appallingly obscure legislation, but as a computer geek rather than a professional aviator, i recommend learning the trick of using google to search websites rather than the site's own search engine.

If using the "Google Bar" in Internet Explorer, go to any part of the website you want to search, then type "eu ops" or whatever in the search box, but rather than pressing enter, click the little down arrow next to the google icon after the search box and choose "search site".

Alternatively, in the main google search box type "site:the-site-name your-search-term", for instance "site:www.pprune.org (http://www.pprune.org) microsoft flight simulator" (JOKE ! :ok:).

Google usually does a far better job than the site's own search engine, microsoft.com being a surprising example, but I've found posts on Pprune using this trick that the search engine wasn't finding!

Hope that helps.

[Duck Rogers]

This has been said before on several occasions but Kolossi is correct. Google tends to have far more success with searches here than our own search function.

Duck

[Kolossi]

Thanks Duck Rogers,

I wasn't meaning to take a pop at pprune - as I said it's equally true of microsoft's site, and they make web search engines! - but particularly when searching for technical/legal info, google does far and away better than any site search engine.