Save Jet Airways

[Capt Apache]

I Appeal To All Jet Pilots.do Not Destroy This Airline.this Is The Only Indian Airline That Can Truly Compete Internationally.this Is One Industry We Must Make Our Mark On To Progress As A Nation.do Not Be Pressurized.do Not Be Intimidated By Self Centred People.please Join Work.please Dissolve This Union.

[alouette3]

Hey ,Capt Apache,

How about sending out the same appeal to the management at Jet? Or do you think they are innocent and have no blame to share?Myabe you are part of management.:confused:

The thing is,Capt, the company that gets a union generally deserves one.Who says that the union will destroy the airline?It might actually make it stronger.You can take that back to the management guys you are speaking for.
Alt3.

[Capt Apache]

Of course,the management has a blame to share...They should have kicked out the belligerent 'BOYS' AND 'CHILDREN' (in the words of your union leader) a long time ago.They are like a couple of bad apples spoiling the good ones

You should have taken the pay cut when you had the chance to show your solidarity with the Chairman.He would have realized the worth of the local pilots and would have never forgotten it.But instead of doing that you derided him and sent him back making insensitive claims like 'uske pass bahut paisa hai'


Who says that the union will destroy the airline?


Wake up and look around.It is already doing that.

[jamestaylor]

Unions built the moddle class in America but has not been needed in 30 years. Look at the state of the unions in the USA maybe 10% but almost all pilots, engrs etc and the US airline business is the worst in the world. I took NWA and I have never had such bad service all the way around. Old planes, no IFE, Old crew who are rude rude and totally obnoxious - why because they make 60-80K and are protected by there Union. Wake up smell the roses I will never fly an american carrier again I will stick to SQ, Cathay, yes I will say it Lufthansa and QF. So take the cuts and bless the fact you have a job. And by the way there is no premium outfit in India (jet was) the others are all truly a joke and it is driven by the employ many attitude - that has always been in India since the dawn of time...............Just look at the indian gov run companies my god their people to plane ratio is 500 to 1 as an LCC is about 80-1.....so do what you have to ..............

[drive73]

Yep, the US model is great. Just ask UAL, AMR, US Air, the list is so long I couldn't even begin to finish it pilots. If you follow the US model you will be over worked, underpaid, disrespected and treated like crap. And on top of that you will have a union who will steal your money and do nothing for you. All a company does to get around a union is file bankruptcy.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Agent 123

In india that is a common way to coerce unwilling and rational people. Poor kids are probably peterfied of gagnster (pink shirt and all) looking "seniors" telling them what to do. Your earlier posts suggest jet will start terminating them randomly.

Guess what if an illegal strike is called post 5 days the management can mark absent and terminate all who have participated in this without show cause. Goyal's lawyers know this and Monday is D day as the sick leave pilots who took by strike notice (dug thier own grave) did not hear the court that declared thier strike illegal are going to be looking for ways to pay thier tuition loans.

With about 50% of his work force I am sure he will curtail ops for a while, get back expats and other pilots from around the world and who will want to work even for lower wages than these guys and go back to concentrating on making money. Doubt any airline would touch a pilot from this fiasco, so maybe some new training in a different field is needed. :E

[Capt Apache]

Anyone who stands with the company in this hour of need will be rewarded.Your sense of loyalty and its timing is completely misplaced.If anything,you need to be as selfish as the guys who are making you do this.

[Fubaliera]

ALL expats should support the Jet guys in not going to India. Please do not be scabs,anyway with all the bureacracy in India It5 will be 6months till the scab expats are online. Good job NAG

[drive73]

Why would we support NAG, they don't want us here? Jet is a great company who have treated us well. They may pay us late, work us hard, but they are fare and value are experience and expertise. If they didn't need us they wouldn't have us here. Don't let a guy with 1500 hours and NO PIC time in anything over a cessna 172 tell you different. When you are offered an upgrade on the ATR don't turn it down. It is not beneath you, you need the experience you are not entitled to upgrade. At some point self preservation should trump ego. I have had to take the jet from more guys this week than in my entire 20 career. According to them they were all ready to upgrade yesterday...

[Fubaliera]

Of course because their Indian, if it were western expat they would take the plane from you.

[flyby71]

Capt. Apache

Few words for you- you are a complete tool.

[drive73]

I take the plane not because they are Indian. 1 in 20 are very good. It is because they don't track centerline, consistently fast or slow +- 10 knots, completly quit flying the airplane in the flare. They are not ready to upgrade. If they had to work under conditions outside India they would understand that they have it very good. And why I feel the two first guys were let go for the wrong reasons. Jepordizing 12,000 other employees jobs seems very petty. Especially when they had no real reason to start a union in the first place.

[Donkey Duke]

I think Capt Apache is looking for a management job....give it up pal, pilots need to be appreciated. We are professionals, and people like you make it tougher for others to see that. Go away.

[Left Wing]

The Hindu Business Line : Jetting into an avoidable crisis (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/09/12/stories/2009091250200800.htm)
Jetting into an avoidable crisis
A. Ranganathan

The current crisis in Jet Airways was avoidable. The unfortunate developments have been blamed on the pilots of the National Aviators Guild — an entirely false impression. Pilot-bashing in the media reached its peak when the Jet Airways Chairman, Mr Naresh Goyal, referred to them as terrorists. This objectionable statement is what prompted me to write this article.

The spark for this unrest was set off by the action of the Jet management, when it summarily sacked two very senior captains. They were sent a single-line e-mail stating that they were terminated with immediate effect and no reasons were assigned. The Executive Director of Jet Airways, Mr Saroj Datta’s response to a question during a televised interview on a business channel, had a significant pointer. The conversation went something like this:

Q: Your present problems with your airline began when Capt Sam Thomas and Capt D. Balaram were sacked because they joined the National Aviator’s Guild. Why was that such an objectionable thing to do?

Dutta: I don’t think that is correct. Yes, they were a party to the formation of the Guild. But the reason they were sacked, or their services were terminated, is because there are internal rules, discipline and all sorts of things all of us are required to follow if an organisation is to function effectively and there were reasons for us to have to act as we did.

Obviously, the management did not want to admit that the reason for the sacking was entirely because the two captains were involved in the formation of the pilot’s union. The truth is in the open in the following interview with the Chairman of the airline, which can be viewed at:

Excl: Why the Jet boss won't give in-The Newshour-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos (http://www.timesnow.tv/Excl-Why-the-Jet-boss-wont-give-in/videoshow/4326959.cms)

Poor management
Mr Goyal states that the two captains went around coercing pilots into signing the union membership form, which is far from the truth. Forming a union is a citizen’s right. Creating an impression that a pilots’ union would increase the insurance charges for an airline is a myth.

The American Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) represents all the pilots in the largest civil aviation sector in the world.

Several major airlines worldwide have pilots’ unions. They do not pay higher insurance charges. On the contrary, airlines with a unionised set of pilots have a good safety record. Insurance rates are based on the safety records of an airline.

Jet Airway’s ills began with a string of poor management decisions, starting with the acquisition of Air Sahara. With the collapse of the US financial sector during the Black September of 2008, reality set in. On July 31, 2009, when the Federation of Indian Airlines announced the threat to strike on August 18, the statement of the Chairman of Jet Airways was there for everyone to view.

He said: “We are bleeding. If the ATF taxes are not brought down and the government does not come forward to help the airlines, we have to close down”. The financial position of Jet Airways has not improved dramatically since July 31, to blame the pilots for its current financial woes.

The Guild
The National Aviatiors Guild was registered by the Regional Labour Commissioner on July 24. The two senior pilots of Jet Airways, who were both office-bearers of the newly formed NAG, were dismissed on July 31. The seed of the problem was sown by the Jet management with this single action.

Representations from the pilots were ignored by the management. When all their appeals fell on deaf ears, the NAG had no option but to issue a strike notice on August 24. This was absolutely legal under the Industrial Disputes Act.

The conciliation meeting under the auspices of the Labour Commissioner on August 31 did not produce the desired result and the management was asked to furnish the reasons for the sacking of the two pilots by September 7. They failed to comply and the Labour Commissioner fixed the next meeting for September 14.

The NAG withdrew the strike notice on the evening of September 7, but the members were agitated that the two pilots had not been reinstated. More than 300 of them reported sick.

The situation could have been salvaged the very next morning had the management reinstated the two pilots. This was the only demand of the pilots’ union. Instead, the management used a battery of high-profile lawyers to obtain a stay from the Mumbai High Court.

Meanwhile, Mr Goyal, instead of being in control of the crisis and solving the issue, chose to be in the power corridors of Delhi to mobilise the support of the Ministry and the DGCA. Fortunately, this move did not bear fruit and the authorities remained neutral.

Fuelling the crisis
The matter was pushed deeper into a crisis by terminating a few more senior captains and also obtaining a Contempt of Court order from Mumbai High Court, on September 9. This move has actually firmed up the determination of the pilots to keep close ranks in support of their dismissed colleagues. Mr Goyal fuelled the crisis by referring to the pilots as terrorists and his statement that he would bring in foreign pilots to cope with the situation.

On September 10, a public interest case was filed in Chennai High Court, highlighting the flight safety issues in the procedure for issuing permits to foreign pilots, who get preferential treatment over Indian pilots.

While the pilots were pilloried, all other airlines that were operating flights made a fast buck by charging exorbitant fares.

In all this, the only person who has come out a winner is the Director-General of Civil Aviation. In two months, he has quietly shown his mettle. When the Federation of Indian Airlines threatened to cancel flights on August 18, he cracked the whip and the threat dissipated.

When the Jet management went for indirect support, he stood firm by remaining neutral. At the same time, he has come down heavily on airlines exploiting the situation by charging very high fares. He has also ordered monitoring of safety-related issues.

The short-sighted management decision in refusing to take back two pilots who were illegally sacked is costing the company almost Rs 15 crore a day. It is going to take several months for Jet’s credibility to return, even if the crisis is solved in the coming days.

(The author is an airline captain with 35 years flying experience. [email protected])

[HAWK21M]

Strike over.
no union....only a group to represent the pilots.
No penalisation for the strike & all 4 pilots sacked earlier to return.

should be back to normal in 24-48hrs.

[functionisthestyle]

Gentleman,

You needn't worry about new expats coming in to replace Indians. We all know the process will take a minimum of 3 mos. I don't care what the DGCA or aviation ministry does or says. There are other government bodies that have to contend with bringing in an Expat. If just one of them does not cooperate the processs can take even longer.

Then there is this little issue called PAY :rolleyes:. Fortunately for Jet national pilots, the company decided to withhold pay for expats too. And they've been late for the past 4 months. Nobody wants to come fly in such an environment. Sure there will be some who are willing to work against the Jet pilots efforts but NOBODY will come fly for free. The remaining expats have no choice since they are already owed money, though they will eventually withdraw their services if pay keeps getting delayed.

Jet mgmt already made sure that a left seat job with them is no longer a enviable position to hold. Expats were kicked out en-masse late last year and in early 2009. Their reputation for treatment of foreign pilots was already suspect. Now with the late pay I doubt they'll find anyone.

[drive73]

Expats aren't here working against the national pilots! It's this kind of small, petty, selfish mantality that will make Indian aviation less safe. There are not enouph QUALIFIED nationals to occupy the left seat. No company wants a higher payroll period. All the Indian company's understand the nationals have limited flight experience. When they are ready to upgrade at Jet they are given the opportunity on the ATR, which is more often than not turned down. A turboprop is beneath the dignity of many national pilots.
In the US there are pilots from all over the world. They are included in the unions, embraced by the pilot groups. The US has gives more good paying jobs to Indians than India can even come close to returning.
You're not entitled to a commandor position just because you are a national. You carry the lives of millions of people in your hands. Until you understand safety is more important than EGO, there will always be expats.

[Wannabe Flyer]

NAG = SNAKE (literal hindi transalation).

[scorpilot]

there will be always be two sides( or more ) to every issue, but lets get this clear....we all ( ALL ) know that expats bring in a lot of expertise and experience to new fleets especially...thats the reason they are paid more too..

now after a few years when the locals have enough experience and are made trainers..its time to upgrade your own pilots who obviously meet the QR's for such an upgrade as per company SOP.

fair enough...lets not confuse safety with expats...

737overshot the runway in mumbai trainer was expat
crj landed on the wrong runway in vecc trainer was expat
A 320 broke some runway edge lights in vobl capt was expat

i can go on and on and so can you about us...but no airline/trainer will ignore/compromise flight safety while upgading pilots..I sincerely believe
in that...so no generalisations please...we respect each other but one has to go back...thats a reality of being an EXPAT.

[drive73]

Your right no group is perfect. Expats are paid very little for their expertise. They are paid out of need. Companies need captains and the only way they will come from a higher standard of living to a place like this, is with MAJOR incentives.
My question to you is why out of 12 nationals offered an upgrade to captain on the ATR, did only 1 take the position? If these guys were really wanting to gain experience they wouldn't turn this opportunity down. Ego drives the need for upgrade directly into a Jet. This is not a person I want flying my family! This does not mean all Indian pilots fall into this statement.

[fullforward]

That's why they let themselves be driven by demagogic populists like the "sleeper", that usually become "leaders" of harmful agitation.
They are selling "be on your 777 right now", which is like music to the ears of the "top guns" with the amazing 2,000hrs tt.

No, comand on an ATR would be an offence! They are different from the rest of the world, were it takes 15, 20 years of hard work and experience to get strapped into a wide body or a command of a jet, for that matter!


Too good the management knows that the most valuable asset is experience, and high quality experience. When it comes to smoking debris and making the headlines, though realities need to be considered. Remember Korean Air on the 80's, when young "machos" with 3,000 hr tt were made "captains" with the known costs of several hull losses and hundreds of lives.
The minimum legal standars to get promoted is exactly this: minimum legal standards.
The majority of the expats have interesting stories about the arrogant atittude of several local FOs, who rate themselves as a god gift to the aviation. This usually lead to bad captains, dangerous ones.

Finaly, India owes Mr Goyal a statue: he's truly a national hero, able to build a world class airline in record time, despite the worst bureaucratic monster in the world. Put the biggest part of his assets to make a dream come true, and some demagogic agitators, below average professionals, are leading to extinguish.

[scorpilot]

@fullforward

if an airline company mandates min time of 2500hrs tt ( with other riders like type time/monsoon exp etc ) as the min acceptable for command upgrade, i am sure they are complying with regulatory and insurance reqts...so whats your point...is a frustrated 7000tt FO flying for years on the right ( unable to upgrade for failing to get an atp or due lack of progression in the company ) necessarily a better/safer future captain??

i dont think so , we have several bright and sharp youngsters in their 20's who fit the bill...go through an assessment/interview...sims..loft..route checks ...company release all done by senior trainers including expats! most pass but some fail too...yes contrary to popular perception...we have pilots who dont make it..!

with the emphasis on crm,leadership skills i am sure by the time one goes through this entire training, one deserves the left seat...enough of this RHS 200 tt holder bashing...not all of them are dopeheads....ofcourse there will be opposition from guys who've flown the airbus/boeing from day one with 2500+ hrs when the airlines want to upgrade them to the atr's...its only natural..their progression had promised them right to left on the same aircraft...


but why is this happening?..cos the management in their exuberance in inducting on the narrow/widebodies completely forgot abt the poor turboprop fleet which almost became 90% expat ( captains )..if only all abinitio hiring was done through the atr's and then progression offered onto the narrowbody jets or command on the atr's itself...such a situation would not have occured..

so airlines wanting captains lapped these guys up while the rest stayed on for upgrade on the atr's...thinking it is an upgrade in recessionary times...in terms of pay/command experience...ultimately market forces ( demand supply ) are the greatest leveller...

[drive73]

Score, I fly at Jet and can tell you I have never flown with a 7000 hour FO. I rarely fly with someone over 2000. I have flown with 1, 250 gal that is very, very good. But in a 6 day week I may fly with 1 or 2 good FOs. If I am lucky.
Crm is non exsistant. Flipping switches, deleting or executing fmc entry's, without informing me. If I make a mistake they won't inform me. No radio etiquette at all(Indian Atc is a nightmare 15 guys talking at the same time). Leaving the cockpit for 45 min to an hour at a time. The worst thing is, you can explain something to them and they have zero intrest in actually learning. If anything out of the ordinary happens, forget about it your on your own!!
This isn't a unique story. If you speak to any expat in India you will get the same story.
Upgrading into anything regardless of Jet or Prop would be taken anywhere in the world except here. EGO's are the only reason to turn down a command position. 12 on the board in Chennai and only one took it. Amazing, I can't imagine anyone in the North America, South America, EUROPE, where one would turn down an ATR command, because the company told them someday they would upgrade in the 73. Things change you take an upgrade when they are offered.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Drive

You have made a very precise and nail on the head assesment. Indians lack respect for authority and each one is trying to be a leader which is almost an impossible task in such a populus country.

I would have said that if they had served in the military they would have learned and earned respect, but the armed forces in India are going the same way where repect is lacking.

This very respect for authority and chain of command is what is causing this problem. It is also the best way to break it as none our loyal to each other and will sell their soul for that next jump.

I am truly sad the management reached a compromise that did not include the total removal of such people who should have been hung out to dry. I suspect this is not the end of the problem and there are going to be more turbulent times for jet ahead especially for those who did not participate in this mindless act as well as the expats who are here to ensure that there is some level of CRM and good ethics passed on.

I for one am ashamed and shocked at the behaviour of such people.

[PINKPANTHER737]

to all you guys debating what the boys in jet have done

..These boys have displayed amazing levels of patience & tolerance awaiting a civilized decision on all the pending issues they had with the new all expat management .. it was outright racism .they took their allowances away when they refused a paycut, next took away all signed agreements by the previous management, took away all their upgrades , & finally when they tried taking away their dignity .. too bad that the board of directors and the chairman himself did not do their homework prior to hiring the CRAP from GULF AIR.. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

They have displayed exemplary levels of courage , strength & character by standing up for their 2 colleagues who were fired for absolutely no valid reason one fine weekend by e-mail . They went further with their resolve to stand united, for another 2 colleagues who were also fired for supporting the cause.... in total 4 guys . they stood united for 5 days till the management finally came begging on their doors ... THESE BOYS R ALL ACTION & LESS TALK.. can you imagine young first officers who been around for anything from 5 -- 12 months standing up to their management
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

These guys are an AMAZING BUNCH..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[weido_salt]

The whole problem, is the old third world problem.

THE CANDIDATES FOR THE "GOOD" JOBS ARE NOT SELECTED ON MERIT!

Most of them come from wealthy and or powerful families and they get first pick. A lot of them would have been weeded out very quickly where i come from.

It is also a problem in the "first" world but not to the same extent but freemasonry does show it's hand.

As for the reinstatement's? They're dead men walking, believe me.

[fullforward]

What the chaps painted here is an amazingly perfect picture of the "professional" environment in India.
Of course there are commited and serious professionals that know what they are doing.
But vast majority:
- came from healthy families, with connections with government officials, that found themselves strapped on shiny jets and don't give a s...about. Daddy payd them to get the licenses in the US. They think they are bollywoood stars, prima donnas that usually leave the cockpit for 30 plus minutes to chat with FAs in the back, every hour, flying over Afganistan, Iraq and other nice places at night, leaving the captain alone. So we have pilot incapacitation on almost 50% of the time on long haul flights.
Imagine what kind of captain they will become on such standards...
- "SOP" for "senior" indian captains: they usually play havoc with rostering, refusing to fly if the sector doen't please them. It's always been like that. Imagine this on Lufthansa, American, Emirates etc...
- now, some lower rank demagogics, are trying to destroy the only real airline the country produced...

Hats of to Mr Goyal, who managed to work with all this crap.

[powerstall]

arrogant atittude of several local FOs, who rate themselves as a god gift to the aviation.

Very True...

[Capt Apache]

They have displayed exemplary levels of courage

Even gangsters and terrorists show EXEMPLARY COURAGE.It doesn't mean ****.


These boys have displayed amazing levels of patience & tolerance awaiting a civilized decision


PATIENCE.Didn't you 'follow the roster' a couple of times which made company lose revenue in the WORST recession.The truth is you never had any teeth and all you ever wanted to do was BITE.And as soon as you thought you had teeth....thats what you did.Within two weeks of formation,Your union went on strike.


you imagine young first officers who been around for anything from 5 -- 12 months standing up to their management


Your newbies remind me of those poor young terrorists they show on T.V.They dance around with a gun in their hands.They neither fully understand the cause they are fighting for....nor do they understand the consequences.

Besides is it not true that you threatened and intimidated them like agent said before.

[Capt Apache]

As for STRENGTH.Any MOB CAN HAVE STRENGHT

As for CHARACTER.I remember watching one of your very senior Captains lie like a child (to Prannoy Roy) on national freakin television as to how he didn't go to school becoz he had loose motions:D

[Wannabe Flyer]

Biggest marketing faux pax was putting that Kaushik guy on TV. He looks like a politician scum with absolutely no finesse in him.

Papers are reporting how the ranks started breaking and why kaushik had to accept going back to tucking his tail and accepting the NAG be dissolved.

I have one word for all who say the pilots where right :p

Guess the snake has no fangs left.

[scorpilot]

I am truly amazed at the description of the FO's in Jet...if that truly is the case...why bother complaining on this forum...take it up with your training team or base managers etc. How disappointing to see such experienced captains not being able to discipline first officers.

Yes we are a developing country and the conditions to fly are very challenging at times but hey no one's forcing anyone to fly..its your choice and market conditions..i.e job opportunities...Jet has been an industry leader and we in other airlines have always admired its "systems" not individuals cos at the end of the day...individuals come and go but systems remain.

Not all pilots in India are from wealthy, "connected" backgrounds...some have huge loans to pay...and are sole breadwinners for their families...come from extremely humble backgrounds too...so please do not paint all of them with the same brush. On my first sim training to cae,ams , out of a batch of 8 fo's only half of them had travelled out of india , it was a task getting them to walk past the "kiosks" in Daam Square!

Anyways, while I do feel sorry for the inconvenience caused to the travelling public, I think it was within their fundamental/constitutional right to do what they did...the management was adamant in not listening to SWIP as they had no legal teeth!...well now NAG has that and hopefully there are lessons to be learnt for all of us...and agent 123 can you resist from personal attacks please..whats your long term agenda in life??!..

[Wannabe Flyer]

Sounds Vindictive to me! :=

How about publishing a list of the trouble makers and seeing if the flying public wants to have them at the wheel? :uhoh:

[functionisthestyle]

Capt. Apache,

You attack pilots/ labor as if they are "terrorists"? That's a little over-the-top, don't you think?

Mgmt was in ultimate control of this ultimate outcome from the getgo. They decided to sack 2 pilots for no reason. They decided to refuse any mediation or negotiation over the matter. And only they decided to continue the lockout until they realized their arrogance was a direct threat to their very existance.

I don't necessarily agree with the execution or the prep-work of this "stike", but I understand the philosophical issues that brought it on. Throughout the entire process, only mgmt had the power to end it. That they chose not to for so long is nobody's fault but their own.

It is called accountability. If you're a pilot I would expect you to understand that.

[Capt Apache]

Steamage...If you have any real opinions like function and scorpilot,Please express them here.

@function
Then tell your friends to stop bragging about Courage.You may have been philosophically motivated(And I respect that) but a lot of others were intimidated.They were scared of losing their benefits and of failing their Sims.THEY WERE MADE TO FEEL THREATENED AND THAT IS A FACT.IS THAT WHAT COURAGE IS...INTIMIDATING THE WEAK.

Then there were others who went along in the name of solidarity which is like saying "I have no brains of my own and will go where the majority goes".Its called HERD MENTALITY.


Throughout the entire process, only mgmt had the power to end it


Logically speaking,that cannot be true as Two parties were involved

[Capt Apache]

They decided to sack 2 pilots for no reason.


I am sorry but the members of your past and present association are war hungry and have always promoted war as a tactic.Then there are people who just play along and don't really express their true feelings.There are no level headed people there(except maybe Girsh who only stepped in now)There was a Wise Old Parsi that you should have listened to.He was the guy who spoke in that meeting with the Chairman.He is smart and wields alot of influence (even with the Chairman).I hope Capt Kaushik involves him in any future interactions with the Mgmt.

DISCLAIMER: Please don't run your horses I am not that guy

If you read any of my previous posts you will note that I have never claimed that your management is innocent.They are not.There are warmongers there too(Please get rid of all warmongers.)
Your Operations and Rostering are f****** up(And I thankyou for using the word ACCOUNTABILITY than the hackneyed COURAGE).But they are much much better than many many other airlines which your guys don't have the depth to appreciate.

As for DIGNITY.... thats what some of your Captains showed when they resigned from mgmt sometime ago.Get them reinstated

[AriGold]

Well, it's good to see the Pilots stand up for themselves. Internationally, Indian pilots are paid far less then Europe/Middle east..but then we have to taken into account the exchange, which was more favorable two years ago.

Anyway, the whole reason the guys got sacked. They got sacked cause they tried to start a union. They went on strike. Jet Airways saved a ton of money by not operating at all and losing on airport fees/fuel even as the company stated themselves. Then, the management refused to let the pilots come back unless the dissolved the union, which the pilots did.

On Aug 17, Jet wanted to strike because it was cheaper not to operate.

So, let's look at this:

Jet Management: You want to strike, PERFECT! The pilots will look like the terrorists!

Desi PIlot: Hey man, expats are getting paid more and we want a union like every other country so we aren't forced to do stupid things for our jobs! Safety!

Jet Management : You are not entittled, here's your termination letter!

Desi Pilot: I told all my seniors now they strike and make everybody else strike.

Jet Management: STRIKE?! No, please don't do that...we'll save so much money!

Desi Pilot: Reinstate us.

Jet Managmenet : Piss of terrorists!

Desi Pilot: We disolved the union.

Jet Management: Oh alright, come back to work fellas! We'll lose more money now when we cut our fares in half..damn it backfired!

Vijay Mallya : Ha ha ha ha, stop at the bank, i need to withdraw money before AAI takes it from me. On the hop!

Air India Desi Pilot: Hey guys, wanna strike?

Paramount Trainee Pilot: arre yaaar I paid 25 lacs and I'm working the counter! 60 Copilots and 15 captains in this company...that seems about right. Can't wait for my upgrade! Sir, may I have your PNR number?

Star Aviation : I got a brilliant idea! LETS START AN AIRLINE!

250 hour CPL Holder: mama, where did you put the gun? No mama, I want to sell it.....not kill myself

Praful Patel : Air India.....Jet....Air India.....Jet....Air India....Jet...wait I own part of jet don't I! Oh you're not losing more money? HA! The government will think I'm chosing the country over my own financial gains! They'll think i'm losing money everyday, and saving Air India in the process! HA! Praful wins again! VICTORY!

Fly Dubai: Here desi pilot...come come come...oh we'll treat you better? Bigger salary, nice house, nice car...no honking or ricshaws...oh there you go desi pilot you like dubai don't you, yeah it's nice! Union, no you don't need a union we shower you with money...we don't even use fuel anymore we just burn money..

[scorpilot]

Dear Sir

My CPL dates back to 1996, I was employed in 2002!...do you see that 6 yr gap...the boom you are talking about is post 2002 phenomena and lasted till last year.
There are scores of guys who were unemployed between 1995 and 2002 who got employed cos of the boom and they form a big chunk of the first officers online today...we know what we went through those years, recognise the value of our jobs and feel the pain of those thousands of unemployed cpl holders at present.
Its a cyclical industry and some get lucky, some have contacts and some struggle ( a large silent majority ) like me to get their first job after 6-8 years.

There are all types of first officers, its true for captains too...we ( captains ) need to address the issue if someone is found complacent or does not follow sop's etc. Its a challenge to the left seat to deal with such guys ( a minority in my opinion )...thats my perspective...phew!

[AriGold]

That question wasn't directed to me, but there's a big difference between the last boom and what is to come. Government regulations made it difficult/impossible for private carriers to come up. Once free skies were enabled in India, along with the economic boom, pilots got hired.

Don't think Indian Aviation is the only industry/country experiencing economic problems. It's a global thing. Airlines expanded too quickly, and didn't look at the mistakes of other airline industries in other countries. Low Cost Carrier is the only way to make money, or at least the safest. Now all the airlines are turning to low cast carrier.

Even despite the troubled times, Paramount, Spice, Indigo, and GoAir are looking in the black. Once all the carriers scale back, more will become profitable/lose less(except maybe air india).

Further, the Indian economy is expected to grow alot in 2010: Outlook for the Indian Economy -- Seeking Alpha (http://seekingalpha.com/article/89956-outlook-for-the-indian-economy)

Things are on the up. 2010 will be a much better year. There are still alot of aircraft orders coming to India, expats to be phased out, and some pilots to move abroad to the Middle East during their heavy expansion. Expect alot of hiring towards the middle-end of 2010.

[gauravprakash007i]

Saw this is today's Times of India....
Its sad :(

http://http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIM/2009/09/15&PageLabel=4&EntityId=Ar00402&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

[FlyingCroc]

While I agree with your points concerning the 20 year old rich deadbeats wanting to become B777 captains (including the idiotic refusal to accept a captains upgrade to the ATR, what an idiot would not go for that?) Forgive me if I do not know the specifics of this dispute.
As far as I know 2 senior union captains got dismissed by a idiotic management and 100's of pilot collegues stood side by side to get them back! I wished I had such work collegues.:D

[highcirrus]

Communication loss with pilots, should have been in contact earlier: Jet top man

Smita Aggarwal Posted online: Indian Express.com: Monday , Sep 14, 2009 at 0351 hrs

New Delhi : In a rare admission by a company that bore the brunt of a five-day crippling strike, Jet Airways Executive Director Saroj Datta who led the negotiations on behalf of the management today admitted problems had been simmering for the last 2-3 years.

Hours after signing an agreement with the pilots’ union at 2 am Sunday, Datta, who has been with Jet since its inception in 1992, told The Indian Express: “There was a total loss of communication between the management and pilots.” There is realisation now, he said, that either he or someone at the top “should have been in contact with them much earlier.”

In fact, so frustrated was Jet Airways’ Chairman Naresh Goyal a few days back that he said pilots were “behaving like terrorists. They cannot hold the country, passengers and the airline hostage.” After all, the strike had not only caused Jet considerable monetary loss — estimated at $5-6 million a day — but also dented its credibility as one of the leading airlines.

But Datta today assuaged the pilots’ feelings and said, “I don’t know what led them to believe they couldn’t talk to us. We should have known their grievances... should have had an inkling about it.” In hindsight, he also sees reason behind their attempt to form a union. “It was our inability to attend to the requirements that prompted them. It is in your interest to make sure they (employees) don’t feel a requirement for a trade union,” he said.

Jet’s memorandum of understanding with the pilots, however, may see the newly-formed National Aviators Guild die a natural death. The MoU has put in place a grievance redressal committee with representatives from the management and the pilots. “The company has operated without a trade union for the past 16 years not because we prevented its formation, but because it operated in an effective manner. Nobody felt a requirement,” Datta said.

The Jet management had signed agreements with the existing pilots’ association, Society for Welfare of Indian Pilots (SWIP), which provided the lone interface between management and pilots. “They (pilots) are a group of people who don’t see us, the company’s administration, on a day-to-day basis. For example, SWIP used to provide a channel of communication... we should have paid greater attention to it... taken it seriously,” Dutta said.

In fact, the management admitted it in the signed agreement as well. “The primary concern of the pilots was the lack of system by which there could be an effective dialogue between them/their representatives and the appropriate level of the Management and it is this feeling which ultimately had led to the registration of NAG as a Union,” the signed agreement said.

Some of these problems, senior pilots who have worked in the company for over 15 years said, were key management positions being occupied by ‘expats’. “There are cultural differences. In last 16 years, there have been 10 vice-presidents, mostly expats which fail to provide leadership and motivation. There are multiple heads in a department leading to infighting. Most of the Indian pilots expected to get promoted to larger aircraft, international routes, but they were ignored,” said sources.

“The decision to form a union, favoured by over 74 per cent pilots in an online SWIP poll, was taken in a meeting in early 2009, after we received an e-mail from Vice-President (operations) Declan O’Connolly questioning the authenticity of the SWIP to talk to management in 2008.” In an e-mail reply to SWIP’s concerns in 2008-end, Connolly began by writing, “Dear ????” — which members found extremely offensive. The last straw was an e-mail sent by Jet CEO Hamid Ali to SWIP members stating that none of the past agreements signed with SWIP were binding on the company as it had no legal position.

Matters have reached a level where pilots refused to attend a meeting today in the presence of ‘expat’ management — it had been called by Naresh Goyal. Present at the venue were Connolly, Ali and Sr. Vice President-Operations & On Time Performance Capt. Hassan Al-Mousawi. Ultimately, they were asked to leave.

Admitting it was the first time that he handled a crisis of this magnitude, Datta said he had learnt a great deal from the crisis. “In my personal capacity, I will ensure that they should feel free to come up to me and bring to my notice grievances and other problems. They hesitated in the past... thinking how will we react to it... my job is to bring their grievances up to the right individual.”

Another senior Jet management official, on condition of anonymity, told The Indian Express: “Maybe we approached them (pilots) too late; it could have been done earlier.” The official was referring to the decision to approach the pilots late in the evening on September 7, the day when pilots called off the strike but went on an en-masse sick leave. “By then, they had already taken to decision to go on a mass sick leave,” official said.

[fullforward]

This is obviously empty bla bla bla to make things sweeten...just a saving faces exercise.
But certainlly dire consequences will come for all. The management hardly will ever trust the pilots again and the professional agitators have their days numbered.
Agent 123: congrats, your posts have been 100% spot on.
I guess some FOs( and even some captains) on the long haul fleet, with their playboyish attitude, think they are sort of sharukhans: some of them have no professional attitude at all, in a night flight they feel bored in the flight deck and go chatting with the FAs on the galley, many times, 15/20 min each. Imagine what kind of captains will be! And other attitudes like changing parameters on FMCs without the captain acknowlegment and numerous SOPs deviations.
Recently a long list of "incidents" was released with nothing surprising, considering the professional level of some individuals.
Before ever thinking about forming a professional union establish as a TRUE PROFESSIONALS.:ugh:
Fortunately, the management understands how much harm would do making headlines with smoking metal and keep a number of proven and reputable professionals, expats and local, doesn't matter.

[functionisthestyle]

I think you're way wrong here.

S. Datta said it himself, he learned a lot from this. Unfortuanately it was a $40 million lesson. Hugely expensive in the grand scheme of an Indian carrier. Not to mention an upcoming $400 million equity deal could potentially be in jeopardy.

I don't think mgmt will waste it's time making examples out of said individuals. To do so will simply lay the groundwork for another impending confrontation with labor. As Datta said, "It is in your interest to make sure they (employees) don’t feel a requirement for a trade union.” Jet will do the needful to make sure the pilots are kept at bay but simply addressing a myriad of trivial issues. If Datta is willing to give an honest interview like this one to the press, he probably meant most of it. Rather than hammering the unionists within the pilot group, I think Dutta and N. Goyal himself are going to reflect on whether it is necessary to have a solely expat exec team. I would imagine that most expat execs days are going to face the wrath of the BOD and Goyal as their replacements are identified.

Quite honestly, The expat execs have nobody to blame but themselves for being so ignorant about the power of labor and the power of unity. No politician, no manager, no exec, no chairman can overcome unity head-on. Even if Goyal instructed them to be so beligerant toward the pilots, it was incumbant upon them to warn him of the ramifications for taking on such a group.

And the expat pilots should have already known their days are numbered. This is the case everywhere across the world as the industry contracts. The so-called unfortunate side-effect of being a contract pilot. Once enough Indian ATPL holders are online, the company will close out the expat positions. Whether you think it's fair or not is irrelevant. Whether you think it is safe or not will probably not be addressed as India feels it is perfectly OK to have a 2500 Hr commander at the helm of a $70 million aircraft. There are enough Indian national pilots out there, hence there is plenty of supply to eventually replace all expats (unlike M.E. countries who don't produce enough national pilots). It is up to these commanders to go out and look for a new job before they get called into SM Centre and told their contract is being cancelled effective next "Monday" as is often the case with Jet.

Bear in mind, I'm not saying expats will be outta' here tomorrow. There still aren't enough ATPL holders but the push to get rid of them will once again begin, ala last Oct '08 to May '09 when the couldn't get rid of expats fast enough. My advice to my expats friends is don't be caught off-guard. Start looking for new work now.

There are still plenty of jobs out there for the expat senior commanders that Jet has in its employ. India, IMO, is no longer in the cards for most. Time to move on.

[fliion]

Bravo.

Many of you held your own...did not give in...and achieved the goal.

Well done to the JET pilots....

I will pay better attention to tipping my hat at the 9W pilots as we pass each other in terminals around the globe.

Respect,

fliion
EK 777

[fullforward]

Dear function...

I fully understand the level of wft here.
Sorry, you probably seems not to understand how the industry works, what's involved. You think it's resumed to a romantic and brave parade.

Please re-read the previous posts.

Imagine you deploy some billions USD (do you realize how much is it?) both from your personal assets and lenders, work like a horse, involving the zillions of intens to establish yourself on one of the most competitive industries of the world.
Question: would you put it all on the hands and responsability of the average professionals you see here, and risk making everything go to the wind on a gigantic smoking hole of debris?
Recently, an unexperienced captain on the long haul fleet (!!) almost turned into a new Helios accident, because he didn't recognize a simple malfunction: he continued to climb an aircraft that was not pressurizing, despite all the blaring bells and whistles!!! He just froze at the controls for some minutes, before realizing what was really going on! What if the FO was at the toilet or chatting with FAs as they like it?
And the list goes long, unstabilized approaches (in many companys nowadays reason enough for immediate termination), lack of SOPs adherence etc. It's not necesary to mention the name of the airline were these things happens, but 99% of them involve relatively unexperienced pilots.

Of course captains with 10,000 PIC make mistakes, but in a percentage infinitely lesser than the "sharukhans". There's simply a matter of statistics.

And the long haul fleet is on the stage of the world, with all spotlights on.
One thing is a 737 that overrun(or whatever) at a remote place, other is a 777 with a load of international travellers. Which one you guess would make the biggest headlines, which one will damage forever the airline reputation if the consequences are dire?

I'll put my shiny planes on the hands of 10,000 plus PIC proven captains, be them indians, armenians, russians or americans. After some years, of course there'll be 100% indians, no question about it.

So, take it ease, do not rush, listen to the more experienced, BE HUMBLE.
Understand that this is a very sensitive and capital intensive industry, not something for greedy ego driven playboys.
Read more, study more, think about what happen with Korean Air in the 80s, for instance. Learn from the expats, ask them, don't think they are stealing your ice cream. Like you said, they are not forever.

[scorpilot]

Can we stop referring to Korean Air accidents...of the 80's...function I wholly agree with you...very balanced view

For the rest what are the QR's for widebody upgrade from the 737...atleast all the guys I know of had a minimum of 8000tt and 3-4000 PIC before they got upgraded...way beyong the min reqd by leading international airlines..

I thought FA's were supposed to check on the flight deck every 30 mins or so during long hauls...I would advise the FO to stay inside unless he's got a leaky hose!

Enough of s**t hauled at each other...lets learn from the crisis and move ahead collectively/constructively....

[rdr]

when this brohaha first broke, some of my sympathy was definitely with the pilots. a lot unilateral decisions were taken against their ranks over a period of time. the question, which resounded, was whether the timing of the agitation was right, given the current state of the industry.
the emerging impass was based on two issues, namely the right to form a union, and later the reinstatement of a couple of pilots.

subsequently, i realised that the real dissatifaction was borne out of the absence of opportunity to upgrade to the widebody, as well as personal hatred of foreign pilots by a few.
this was evident by the ill timed and idiotic comments by the general secretary of NAG on national television about expat pilots. a lot of pilots were mislead into thinking that the world was against them, so when things didn’t happen the way they liked them to, the easy option is the xenophobic route to blame the outsiders.

that many in the ranks were not entirely convinced of the legitimacy of being herded, threatened, isolated or dragged into a conflict like goats, was apparent. the perpetrators being the jokers on the 737/ATR.
it did show the levels of frustration with the zero dialogue situation with the company.
now, the issue is going even deeper into the expat pilot management. some little boys feel they have achieved manhood. it is well documented that the most dangerous, as well as accidental hull loss scenario, is that of the 1000 hr pilot on type. it is a period when the prerequesite experiance is not
attained, but a false sense of total competence is established.

aviation in India will eventually mature due to its talented and extremely bright individuals. so must the individuals ability in rational thinking to accept, reject or see through the ulterior motives of some.

there is only one way for the management to go. and sadly, it will not be the way of a handful of malcontents intent on fulfiling their mama's prediction that they are the best thing to happen on earth since JC.

[Capt Apache]

There has been another display of (EXEMPLARY) COURAGE in Jet Airways.A Captain offloaded an F/O (for obvious reasons) travelling on duty resulting in disruption of operations.

Now the union wants to rein in the Frankenstein it created!!!

WIDEBODY WIDEBODY WIDEBODY....Even my children never complained so much for their toys.

Remember the old adage : FLY THE AEROPLANE :mad:

[Wannabe Flyer]

VINDICTIVE :mad:

Poor F/O

[shon7]

How can a Captain offload an FO travelling for duty unless the FO was travelling on a jumpseat?

[drive73]

A Captain can off load any person, crew or passenger they think jepordizes the safety of flight. A smart FO can just refuse to fly if they think the Captain is unsafe.

[Wannabe Flyer]

A smart FO can just refuse to fly if they think the Captain is unsafe.

What will be the parameters for a FO to do that so as not to get into trouble, ie: definition etc.....?????????

[jimmygill]

Question: would you put it all on the hands and responsability of the average professionals you see here, and risk making everything go to the wind on a gigantic smoking hole of debris?
Recently, an unexperienced captain on the long haul fleet (!!) almost turned into a new Helios accident, because he didn't recognize a simple malfunction: he continued to climb an aircraft that was not pressurizing, despite all the blaring bells and whistles!!! He just froze at the controls for some minutes, before realizing what was really going on! What if the FO was at the toilet or chatting with FAs as they like it?


Ohh... please, don't be so romantic with aviation. Expats are employed in India not because of their great skill or professionalism (none of which I dispute), but simply because low cost national pilots were not available. In year 2009 so far DGCA has issued only 243 ALTP as against roughly 1200 CPLS. It will take some time to get enough commanders, and as things go they would be low time captains to start with.

Aviation safety is 33% Professionalism, 33% Equipment and 33% Policing. Presence of expats in Indian aviation doesn't play as much role in aviation safety as the good management practices which promote professionalism, promote good maintenance and assure policing at all levels and departments related to safety. Policing is not just DGCA's responsibility, in fact it is too serious to be left with DGCA.

So if the FO is not in his seat its not merely lack of professionalism, but also lack of policing.

[Dagar]

Drive 73,I am an Indian and currently flying as a Capt.on A320 in USA for a part 121 carrier,for your info.my salary is way below industry standard(below third world standards),only reason I am with them is because I like the job and the company.Be greatful that you have a well paying job and show some respect to the locals,no one is forcing you to fly over there if you are unhappy just quit, I am sure you will be quickly replaced.

[fullforward]

I'll not discuss anymore with wannabes: you have no clue of what you're talking about and by the way is enough poisoned by the new "professional union" BS...Relax, a festival of brand new 330 and 777 seats for you all is on course.
Not serious.:ugh:

[HiAltFlyer]

In the US I would fly for less money then in India and have a life. Why do you think India has to pay higher wages?

[rdr]

Dagar

who do think you are to tell people to quit just because they are expressing their rightful opinion in a forum ??

stop being childish and debate the facts, instead of hiding behind your 320 boy capt postion to throw stones.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[shanx]

hmmm ... Interesting question ! ...
which of the two would one prefer ? ..

1. Live and work in USA with comparitively less pay. :ok:

2. Live and work in India with high pay.:oh:


??

[alouette3]

No,no,no, Shanx, the question foremost is why is he being paid below industry standard? Is it because he is an expat?or is the US airline industry itself paying below standard?I suspect it is the second. The first would be illegal.
Also, after you convert dolloars into rupees, gallons into litres etc, the cost of living in India is much lower.But it is not always about the cost of living is it? It is all about quality of life.So,yes to you question, there are those willing to work for less for a better quality of working and living life.
Alt3.

[shanx]

Alouette3,

My point regarding living in USA or India and pay etc was not related to Dagar's case of being paid less in the airline he is working for.

What I was trying to say was that expats perhaps need to be paid more than they would make in their own country, because of the standard of living.
Food, fuel, housing comparatively is cheaper here than in the US .. but Im talking about the other issues which have been listed above ... like traffic congestion, pollution, corruption in almost every avenue and department (Government or otherwise), cleanliness etc.

[jimmygill]

Wishfull thinking
Question: would you put it all on the hands and responsability of the average professionals you see here, and risk making everything go to the wind on a gigantic smoking hole of debris?
<snip>
I'll put my shiny planes on the hands of 10,000 plus PIC proven captains, be them indians, armenians, russians or americans. After some years, of course there'll be 100% indians, no question about it.


I have no doubt about you giving due premium to safety. I was just trying to point out that industry doesn't pay that much heed to safety. And expats are not adding to safety culture in any meaningful way to the Indian aviation. Most of the first officers you may have been flying or instructing already have thier CPL from FAA, TC or CASA. If they couldn't adopt that safety culture due to their own limititations, how can flying with expats help them. Indian schooling, parenting and education all heavily rely on Machiavellian principles.




So, take it ease, do not rush, listen to the more experienced, BE HUMBLE.
Understand that this is a very sensitive and capital intensive industry, not something for greedy ego driven playboys.
Read more, study more, think about what happen with Korean Air in the 80s, for instance. Learn from the expats, ask them, don't think they are stealing your ice cream. Like you said, they are not forever.

On this forum, the only way I can judge any poster's experience is through his/her posts. Regardlessly, I like to learn from experienced as well as inexperienced.

I am glad that you pointed out the Korean Airlines, and I am going through the reports one by one, at the same time I will invite you to read what Prince thought, and a bit about development economics in India, before you disregard "professional union" as B.S. (or cow dung for that matter), the 'Sharukhans' weren't born and brought up in the cockpits, in order to know why the playboys are that way and how they can be changed (not talking about firing here), one will need to step out of the cockpit and thats where solutions lie.

When I wan't my ice-cream, none can keep it from me.

[jimmygill]

My question to you is why out of 12 nationals offered an upgrade to captain on the ATR, did only 1 take the position? If these guys were really wanting to gain experience they wouldn't turn this opportunity down. Ego drives the need for upgrade directly into a Jet. This is not a person I want flying my family! This does not mean all Indian pilots fall into this statement.

Thats not ego, thats career choice, should I fly as first officer on 737 or Commander on ATR, or should I be flight instructor on a C-150. Plain and simple matter of career choice, where does ego come into picture.

And its not the ego that drives the need to upgrade directly to a jet, India has a bigger fleet of jet aircraft than prop aircrafts, and its a wise decision to stick to larger fleet, especially if management can fire pilots at the drop of a hat.

And I guess a person has a right to his decision (whether wise or otherwise).

[drive73]

Most of the upgrades to the 73 at jet, flow through the atr. So the question still stands. If this is the quickest way for upgrade into the jet, why would you turn it down??? The expats in the atr greatly out number locals.
I am not saying all of the fo's are painful to fly with. I just have seen how a large percentage of these guys fly and how they treat the cabin crew, ground crew, drivers, etc.. EGO.. I have seen policy changes to prevent a senior check airman from looking bad. This happens in China alot as well. Just different cultures.

[jimmygill]

Most of the upgrades to the 73 at jet, flow through the atr. So the question still stands. If this is the quickest way for upgrade into the jet, why would you turn it down??? The expats in the atr greatly out number locals.
I am not saying all of the fo's are painful to fly with. I just have seen how a large percentage of these guys fly and how they treat the cabin crew, ground crew, drivers, etc.. EGO.. I have seen policy changes to prevent a senior check airman from looking bad. This happens in China alot as well. Just different cultures.

I agree to your point of view, only that we must avoid generalizations (I am not stating that you made generalizations, but some do.). Generalizations are most of the times crass and unproductive.

Yes, orient and occident are two poles, thats what sometimes lead me to feel that, expats aren't very successful at changing the safety culture, a home-bred problem must have a home-bred solution.

[drive73]

Jimmy, you are definatly correct. Having expats with high experience doesn't do much to change the culture of a region. The only way safety is affected, is some of these guys won't upgrade as quickly as they wish. This will by default gain them more experience.
I have worked with some great Indian pilots who were eager to learn and ask questions. Hopefully these guys keep caring about getting better and become great captains and in turn pass along those qualities. That coupled with some of the better local captains who already work here will someday make this a much more crm freindly place.. As it stands now it is hard for proper crm to exist.

[fullforward]

This is as old as aviation is: everywere in the world, when aviation industry boomed, be in Asia, Latin Africa, Africa etc whenever they put local but inexperienced "talent" the results were smoking piles of fragmented metal and bodies. No way out.
How much it costs? The whole industry is severely damaged when this like that happen.
Unfortunately it will take some carnage before the ego driven playboys and the "professional" unions realize this.
Seems like nobody learns from lessons of the past.
There's some accidents waiting to happen.

[alouette3]

And here we go again. The ghouls are out predicting----nay---hoping for carnage and smoking holes. :ugh:Just to be able to say---"aha I told you so". Sick and sad.
Going by that logic, so far all the smoking holes around the world had inexperienced guys at the wheel? The 10,000 hour veterans have never crashed?
Yes, I know all about Korean in the 1980s.That was two decades ago.Technology and training has advanced.Get over yourselves.:=

Alt3

[jimmygill]

The only way safety is affected , is some of these guys[not so safety conscious first officers] won't upgrade as quickly as they wish. [B]This will by default gain them more experience.

I think unmentioned assumption here goes like

1) The kind of f/o s mentioned are corrigible, and a 'penalty' as little as waiting for promotion is good enough to inculcate the desired safety behavior.

2) More hours are always better, doesn't matter how the hours are gained, chatting with flight attendants counts just as much as flying under supervision.

To me they don't seem very reasonable assumptions. One problem with statistical approach of more hours less accident is the sample population and overall population make up.

[Wannabe Flyer]

To me they don't seem very reasonable assumptions. One problem with statistical approach of more hours less accident is the sample population and overall population make up.

Experience Experience Experience

Or is this incorrect?????

[drive73]

It is not always about experience. Sometimes this can be a problem as well. The, "I have done this before and it worked attitude".
I feel it is very much an attitude and understanding what is at stake issue. If you don't care about learning and think you know it all at 22, it will be a problem which will carry throughout your career, or until something happens. This is the difference I see between aviation in certain regions vs us, uk, can, etc. I just don't see a desire to improve performance on the same level as other areas of the world. Almost like a disconnect from reality. I have watched multiple crashes in the sim from an FO, that 2 days earlier was complaining about not upgrading. I don't see a practical thirst for knowledge.
These guys can build the airplane with their system knowledge, but applying this to actually flying is missing, for a large majority.
Without good judgment it doesn't matter how many hours one has. This is what lots of FO's in this area don't care about. After 20000 hours I still learn new things everyday about good judgement. Analysing good and bad judgements, what works, why descisions where made is how good judgement is gained. This is what is missing in a big way from the FO's we are talking about. No desire to learn how to be a GOOD pilot. They want the title, status and have no care for the thousands of lifes that can be impacted by descisions they have made. Some do and will make great captains, even with low hours..

[jimmygill]

You (drive73) are right, one may have thirty years of experience but it is no good if it is one year of experience repeated thirty times.

[rdr]

and who is to judge if the 2000 hr genius is better than the 20000 hr deadbeat??

[Wannabe Flyer]

Is there some protocol, hierarchy etc where in movement to next grade depends on a combination of hours, incident free flying, type rating, recommendations. I am sure there is some way a system can be devised to weed out the bad ones. Are there any examples of airlines out there doing so or is this a problem manifested across this industry? :hmm:

[drive73]

I think where asia runs into problems is lack of different flying experience. In most countries that have major general aviation systems, pilots have to work up to flying a jet full of passengers around. Most have to instruct, fly small twins, single pilot for shady cargo companies in horrible conditions, then if they are lucky they may be able to land a regional job. They fly for this regional for 5 years or so in the right seat and finally get the chance for upgrade. This is a pretty normal career path. This tends to weed out the folks who are in it for the wrong reasons. Asia has no weeding out process. First job is right seat in a boeing or airbus.
One doesn't learn how to fly. More is learned from instructing, single pilot twin flying, regional hopping than you can ever imagine. A book can only teach so much, at some point it must be performed to really understand how to fly. As a pilots career progresses the flying gets easier. If your career starts at the easiest level, anything out of the ordinary can be very overwhelming and confusing. If you have nothing to fall back on, a good outcome to the problem may be hard to find..

[fullforward]

Exactly!

On your previous post you wrote:

"They want the title, status and have no care for the thousands of lifes that can be impacted by descisions they have made. Some do and will make great captains, even with low hours..."

Drive: you're 90% right, but low hours hardly expose the individual to the most possible cenarios that challenge the pilots on day to day operations. That's why some airlines use to pair a very senior captain with junior ones, especially on wide bodies.

Wannabe: in countries with a safety culture worth this name it's unthinkable to be on a widebody command before 10 or so years on the short haul, coupled with a careful career progress assessment. It's not all about experience, it's about quality of experience.

In India, fortunately, the airlines management took the most experienced and higher qualified workforce available to face the boom. Otherwise it would be several smoking holes. They know how much a disaster costs. Hopefully they will not surrender to the ego driven playboys too soon.
It will take several more years before a true safety culture be implemented. Professional attitude is still light years from what we have in US, EU, Japan.
Basic, dangerous mistakes and deviations from standards are still dealt on a paternalistic way. Unprofessional behavior is tolerated by local captains and even by some expats, trying to be the "nice guys"...
It's laughable that such a group ever think about professional union before realize what their business is all about.
And their main demand is focused on upgrades!...:ugh:

I will say it again: the safest course of action is to have the most experienced and higher possible qualified workforce, be local or expat, for as long as possible in order to build a true safety culture.
This is the CHEAPEST AND FASTEST way.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Drive, FF

Thank you for your answers. Drive I think your summary of a person struggling it up towards getting command is a great example as to how a developed aviation market has checks and balances. I think in India with such a large percentage of population being so young and eager as well as the general aviation market not being too well evolved is a root cause for such over eager bevers to jump into the left seat.

FF

It seems that the writing is on the wall and most indian management companies are not as daft as some would like them to think. A clear chart of progression and "waypoints" should be laid out and a person should understand this before starting on a career.

Problem is still that in India the younger generation has not learned what is to climb their way up gracefully. They have been exposed to mob metality and this will be their undoing. What will be their downfall is their total lack of unity and selfish behaviour.

[jimmygill]

On the basis of past twenty year data.. Air India... "arguably" despite its "sharukhans" and several of its labor unions had had a lower accident rate than following airlines. Its ranking amongst airlines which had fatal accidents was 46/88.

Kuwait Airways
Royal Jordanian Airline
Virgin Atlantic Airways
British Midland
Oman Aviation
Alitalia
United Express
Air France
Saudi Arabian Airlines
AirTran Airways
Singapore Airlines/SilkAir

'Smoking hole' theory needs to be backed by statistics and shall not be based on mere xenophobic prejudices alone.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Jimmy

I think Air India pilots were some of the best and this is probably because the govt. style attitude where everyone had to put in their mandatory time at a certain level and climb to the next as indicated by drive 73 (feature of a monopolistic economy till mid to late 90's). This is where experience kicked in. Some of these guys are still flying today and deserve the left seat. A lot of them were poached or at least tried moving to private airlines till the govt. intervened. If they had been allowed there would have been fewer expats, however that would not have solved the problem for the fresh ones arriving on the scene today. I suspect the expat xenophobic thought process is cause it gives them an easy horse to whip and really has no merit to it. it has got a lot more to do with the Glut in the market at the moment and unemployment.

Post 2001 when everyone and their cousin started opening airlines there was this sudden glut for pilots. Expats where brought in for experience (there are no smoking holes in the Indian aviation sector or any fatalities since patna) this also leans towards experience.

I think the problem will now start. All of a sudden it bacame the "in thing" for parents to make thier kids pilots (much like the doctor and engineer and then the MBA boom). This has seen a lot of dubious colleges and a surplus inflow of "qualified" pilots flooding an industry which was predicting a huge demand. As we all know the last 20 months have been akin to melted cheese. Kids with aspirations and who have heard fast track stories of the past few years now want thier piece of the pie, and it is just not possible. In the same token these guys probably have it in them but need a few good years at various levels before they earn the right under the old system (like AI of yester year) to sit in that left seat.

It is a matter of simple economics and supply and demand. Once the market picks up again there will be a re occouring demand and the cycle will start again. till then I hope these guys at least put thier heads down and get good experience. Hell a 23 year old has close to 40 years of flying ahead of him. He can wait another 4 years for his BMW big deal.

Remember if the airlines were not able to afford the luxury of getting expats in the early years then the Indian aviation industry would not have developed to where it is today and would still be suffering. Don't know how many smoking holes there would have been then.

[Capt Apache]

Does anyone know about the plethora of issues that the union has?

Do they want the management to re-design the cockpit as well or are they only fighting for crumbs of bread (Allowance,Hotels blah blah blah) this time?:{ (How much do they make by BTW???)

Do they know which issue they are going to bring up first or are they going to spew everything they could conjure; in their very first rendezvous with the management ? :yuk: (the latter I would say)

[Wannabe Flyer]

Capt

Sit around a dinner table with 8 indians (who have been given one topic to discuss) and see if in 10 mins you can count the number of conversations going on including multiple multi tasking ones. Now appoint one of them a leader to co ordiante and wait another 10 mins.

You will notice

1) Leader is already unpopular and 3 more want his place
2) Initial topic that was given as part of conversation has now become at least 6
3) Voices are louder
4) 10 people with 100 opinions led by 9 leaders
5) the 2 who do not become leader will now start plotting on how to pull the other one down and will form camps. :eek:

Now multiply this by 900

This is what a union meeting will disolve into :ugh:

[Capt Apache]

People in doubt about what Wannabe said must take a look here

YouTube - Fight between ministers in UP - Not at Indian Parliament (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XARIMMAG4Go)

We solve problems the fun way.Don't we?

Union is the Way- Ofcourse !!!:ok::rolleyes: :ugh:

[jimmygill]

I think the problem will now start. All of a sudden it bacame the "in thing" for parents to make thier kids pilots (much like the doctor and engineer and then the MBA boom). This has seen a lot of dubious colleges and a surplus inflow of "qualified" pilots flooding an industry which was predicting a huge demand. As we all know the last 20 months have been akin to melted cheese. Kids with aspirations and who have heard fast track stories of the past few years now want thier piece of the pie, and it is just not possible. In the same token these guys probably have it in them but need a few good years at various levels before they earn the right under the old system (like AI of yester year) to sit in that left seat.


The problem has already started. By year end DGCA would have issued approximately in addition to 1800 CPL, for year 2009. Total number of CPL issued so far by DGCA will approx 9000.

In year 2009. I expect around 4500 additional Pilot Computer number issued, a statistics which indicate the number of pilots who have at least 10 hrs of flight time.

Only silver lining is that new Class 2 Medical assessments (an Indicator of new interest in Plot and ATC license) in 2009 is expected not to cross 3000.

In next few years indian economy growth will linger around 10% (optimistically speaking) which will give a most optimistic growth rate of 15%.

From current employment figure of 4000 it will take approximately 5 years to reach 8000, and then too we may not be able to accommodate more than 30% of new trainees.


http://x3a.xanga.com/4f7f622745d35255486658/w203164248.jpg

[Wannabe Flyer]

Jimmy

Bingo, yo hit the nail on the head. Supply will exceed demand, market forces will kick in. The position airlines were in a few years ago will be reversed and the shoe will be on the other foot.

I see static or lower wages coming.

[jimmygill]

What still beats me is the new flight training institutions which keep coming up in India. Every month more and more training aircrafts are added to the DGCAs register. At this time the total domestic flight crew training capacity could be anywhere between 1000-2000 cadets per year.

I have no doubts about new trainees jumping into career without proper research, we can't expect anything more from 18-years-olds-all-expense-paid-training-holidays scenario. What bothers me is the rate at which private flight training industry is expanding in India. Are they seeing something which I am missing, are they planning short term or long term?

During my experience as instructor in a few flying schools in India, the most difficult question I faced was not related to aerodynamics, flying the aircraft or the DGCA exams. The most difficult question was "Will I get a job after the course?"

Trying to answer that question takes me right back to Professional Ethics classroom. I cannot give them a de-motivating answer, and I cannot give them anything other than my 'true opinion' on it. So I will go like, "You work hard now, and you work hard after the course, you will get what you want if you put hard work?"

[drive73]

Jimmy, You are correct the Indian aviation industry has a descent track record for fatalities, but stats can be used to make counter points as well. Look at fleet sizes, flights per day, types of flying, on and on.. If your going to throw out a list, it must be a comparitive list.
I see the product who want to and feel they are ready for upgrade everyday. So far, at Jet they are smart enouph to not upgrade these guys. The major problem is at some point thier number will come and hopefully the attitude they currently display will have changed, or the track record will change..

[fullforward]

The statistics shown above, simply put, try to compare oranges with elephants and is as valuable as the pixels on the screen.

We agree that investing a good sum on flight training to end up whithout that seat on a Boeing can be very frustrating. However, the boom is over and there's no signs to restart.
Better the healthy Indian daddys incentive their kids on another career paths: doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. It will be certainlly money better spent.
Force this 200hrs wannabes into the market and/or promote to captain with the bare legal minimum now will sacrifice the safety records and thus whole industry for nothing. Lessons from the past must be learnt.

There's enough pilots for the next 5 years, at least.

[jimmygill]

Statistics
The statistics shown above, simply put, try to compare oranges with elephants and is as valuable as the pixels on the screen.


The numbers presented above were facts and expectations, there is no comparison shown. Reference to oranges, elephants and comparisons are all uncalled for. At least this 'wannabe' is not able to make a sense out of this post.

[purple]

Good Morning!
Being one of the pioneers of this outfit seconded from M'sian Airline back in the early nineties, it was a pleasure working for Jet and my high regards to some individuals who are still there. From merger 5 aeroplanes the airline has expended leaps and bound. An Association or a Union should be in place from the very onset. This is to protect pilot's interest in terms of progression, seniority, pay, accommodation, technical enquiries etc. Rest assured this is by no means to cripple the airline. Many international airlines have Association or Union in place and they have not faultier or gone belly up, where some has of course but this not solely the cause of a Union or an Association. Anyway, good luck to you boys out there and hope all works out well for everyone.
:ok: