jet turbulence

[nada1234]

Dear all,
It is quite surprising to see that there is nothing on this forum concerning the latest happenings on Indian aviation scene. Yes it concerns the turmoil in one of the largest private carriers – Jet airways.
Before anything else, let me make it clear that I am not part of jet airways but a similar stakeholder in another private carrier. What happens in Jet now will affect all of us directly or indirectly. Having said that kudos to these guys for displaying an unprecedented UNITY and maintaining a DIGNITY inspite of all the muck that Jet management is trying to throw on them. Hats off to the president and secretary of NAG for the manner they have handled the press. Yesterday, I was horrified to see how Mr Pronoy Roy (on NDTV) was trying to browbeat these guys and how they stood up to him and to all other media sharks.:D:D:D
The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in. At the same time they started ignoring SWIP, which was the link between the pilots and mgmt. Jet guys have been on go slow since then and we could see that, often cursing them whenever we got stuck behind them. The things came to a head when the Jet mgmt, in true barbaric style, tried to completely ignore SWIP, going to the extent of even question its legitimacy. It appears, in order to give it legitimacy, SWIP was reborn as NAG which now has a legal standing and of course the Jet mgmt did not like it one bit. That was the point of open confrontation resulting in the happenings of last three days. By going to labour commissioner, Jet mgmt has given this body its legitimacy and now by irrationally sticking to a weird demand of getting it derecognized, they are going to go nowhere. Lets face it, union is here to stay and the earlier the Jet mgmt recognizes it the better it is. At least they will stop losing the Rs.18-20 crore that they are doing now. OR is there a sinister plan of Jet mgmt to declare a lock out and get out of all its losses by blaming the pilots? This is another theory going around of how naresh goyal is trying to get out of the mess that he has created and finding the creditors now gnawing at his heels.
What next? A lot if like me, you are also a stakeholder in this profession.
At present, NAG is fighting its own battle, ICPA and IPG are doing their own things. Why not a national pilots union by whatever name it is called? There is an urgent need to have it like in other countries where aviation has come of age. Today everybody takes pilots for a ride whether it is DGCA or the company mgmt or the media or the general public. See what happened to the “Scientific” FDTL rules. The money and muscle power of airlines got it overruled and now work is on on a watered down version which will invariably serve the interests of Airlines rather than the affected parties that is us pilots. Similarly, look at the number of expats and compare that to the number of unemployed pilots in India. Except doing lip service, has the DGCA/ministry done anything for these guys? – NO. Unless we unite and negotiate as a block of affected parties, nobody is going to listen. The airlines have formed their own union – FIA, then why not us?
The biggest casualty that is happening due to us being fragmented is flight safety and we are in the direct line of fire – blame the pilot for whatever happens.
I would request that other stakeholders speak up and not only extend their support to jet guys but go further and join together.
Happy landings!!!
:8

[Capt Apache]

May be you are from Jet and just don't know it yet :ugh:.Don't talk about the strike.Labourers must go on strike.They earn peanuts.Its below our dignity as pilots to go on strike.

[COCOCHANEL]

Even Government impose various trade sanctions on other countries not in their good books, till these countries toe the line.....no new move here, the jet guys are definitely not the pioneers in this.

[varkey007]

i am from jet and we will make it , watch the news soon

we rule

[COCOCHANEL]

varkey 007---what I don't get is, I thought unions including pilots associations and the likes were legal in India, so on what grounds did Jet sack the pilots? Aside from forming NAG, any other issues? Has NAG forwarded any outrageous demands to the Jet management?

Last I heard was that most of the airlines themselves were planning to go on strike coz of the govt. policy.

Am I missing out on some info?

[Wannabe Flyer]

It is quite surprising to see that there is nothing on this forum concerning the latest happenings on Indian aviation scene. Yes it concerns the turmoil in one of the largest private carriers – Jet airways.

It is quite surprising that you do not read the other forums. There is enough doled out there.

The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in

So if a foreginer works in India it is at the cost of local talent, but with 5 million indians living and working outside India we scream racism, H1 fraud and other crap. Its a 2 way street buddy.

Besides if you behave like a laborer your boss will look elsewhere including outside India.

[carb-heat]

Excuse me fellas!! below your dignity as a pilot to go on strike!!:bored: well it's also below your dignity to see your paycheque take a dive down south to tackle reccession and bad times and at the same time see expats in your own company get paid the same, oh im sorry not the same but more on the 1st of every month whereas your salary date gets moved around like a game of russian roullete

No one's blaming the expat for coming down and flying out here it's thier sikills and experience that got them the job the company needed them they signed a contract and are abiding by it, but what about the contract the company had with us?? that piece of paper is lying wayside by the road and you get an email from the higher up saying SWIP?? contract, agreements?? what's that you are just a welfare organization we do not have to respect any agreements signed between us so buzz off..
well when you say that you leave people no choice but to form a legally recognized body like NAG, a union and upon doing that you start firing people in a act of pure vendetta well then that's what you get....

[Capt Apache]

You guys can't stop boasting on television about how you built the airline.But when it comes to taking a few cuts on your fat pay cheque you start crying like a baby.What did the Chairman ask you for ?At a time when people were losing jobs every where and the worst recession had hit,he wanted to give you a 10% paycut.Even that you could'nt sacrifice for the company YOU BUILT.Who will do it then- EXPATS
You never treated this like your own company and now you want it to become your fiefdom with your union.Your union will do nothing but bring petty office politics into the mainstream.Look around and see what politics has done to India.That is exactly what your union will do to Jet Airways.
Dissolve this union for your own good.

[sierra_november]

Wannabe Flyer said "So if a foreginer works in India it is at the cost of local talent, but with 5 million indians living and working outside India we scream racism, H1 fraud and other crap. Its a 2 way street buddy."

may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?

[Capt Apache]

may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?
will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?


Oh.... So you want Indians there as well do you...Very convenient isn't it?

And may I ask you how many American and European software professionals does India employ.

[jetzup]

@Capt Apache @wannabe flyer

Try a new approach, reading your posts it is as if Obama never made it to the news very recently endorsing H1B visa ban, barring loans to the banks that hire foreigners ,and much more, in order to stem American skilled workers unemployment/ progress, moves seen to target Indian IT professionals. It is as if "white collar" strikes are non existant.... teachers strikes, government employee strikes, pilot strikes in the U.S, Australia, France, Hongkong.....

[acy RJ driver]

Hey Sierra November:

will US or any European country ever allow a highly experienced Indian pilot to fly for one of it's major carriers ?
where's the two way street then ?

At my carrier in the US we have 1-Indian Assistant Chief pilot 2-Indian Instructor pilots and several Indian Line pilots. Not to mention the many other nationalities flying with us, or the scores of Indians and other foreingers flying at various other airlines outside of India. I suggest you do some research. The fact is there are disproportionate numbers of Indians and other foreingers who flock to the US Uk Canada....etc looking to improve the quality of thier lives. Dont be hypocrytical when foreign pilots do the same in India.


To the pilots of Jet Airways I salute and support you . If more pilots would grow balls and demand to be treated as professional aviators this would be a better industry.


Acy. :E

[jetzup]

confirm all without green cards and social security by now?? Are they still recruiting non green card holders despite Obama's move? Maybe some of the jet pilots can also apply. Anyway Indians going abroad usually get paid less than an average local for the same job, whereas expats in India will get paid way higher than a qualified local for the same post.

[Capt Apache]

I can't believe this.You guys are actually defending the premise that a couple of 100 expats are not tolerable when you have a zillion Indians working all over the world.
All my friends who ever went to the States got Green Cards and settled down there.1 of them even married an American.You take a guess why he did that.
Kindly read here about our other achievements abroad.
Indians fastest-growing illegal immigrants in U.S. - SiliconIndia (http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Indians_fastestgrowing_illegal_immigrants_in_US-nid-60255.html/1/2)


Anyway Indians going abroad usually get paid less than an average local for the same job, whereas expats in India will get paid way higher than a qualified local for the same post.


Yes but it is only about 10 times what they get in India.

Please read here
India tops list of highest migrant remittances, says World Bank (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=26052&Cr=migration&Cr1)

And ponder over this line.
He added that “they are often an essential source of foreign exchange and a stabilizing force for the economy in turbulent times.”

[jetzup]

If an expat marries an indian he can get a p.i.o too .... 10 times their salary in certain jobs maybe (not for pilots), but still not more than the locals qualified for the same jobs.

The trend in the u.s is different now, hence the new stance on H1 as many american skilled workers are unemployed, and their progress hindered. The earlier hiring trend was when there was a lack of skilled workforce, also the fact that u.s were into innovation and invention, so it was for mutual benefit. Now there are tough laws on illegal immigrants as well.

Not to stray from the topic...we are talking about constitutional and legal matter of pilots forming a union, hence the strike. Is is legal for jet airways pilots to form a union?

Are you in the jet airways management ?! I am not pro or anti the strike, but I am wondering why are they not allowed to form NAG.

.

[Capt Apache]

Good to have you back agent.As 'vociferous' as ever.:)

Is is legal for jet airways pilots to form a union?


Of course its legal.They have been harping that tune all along.But I am not a 'vakil' babu(You will find a lot of wannabe vakils in Jet);nor am I pedantic.I am not looking at it through the prism of Law.

Is it in the interest of the company ?Is it ethical to do this at a time when the greatest airline of this country is reeling under losses(Think about employees who must be paranoid at the thought of a delayed salary in September) ? Is the union so puritanical or does it have other vested,selfish and greedy aims and objectives? These are the real questions worth contemplating.

[sierra_november]

@ Capt.Apache
even if India was to employ american/european software engineers , would they really come and work here for a lesser pay ?

I have nothing against expats coming to work in India, but when you say that solely because a lot of Indians are working abroad in fields other than aviation, a qualified and experienced Indian pilot must quit thinking about flying for a US/european/canadian/australian carrier that is looking for pilots.....
all I'm saying is that if you compare the opportunity that an Indian pilot has abroad with what foreign pilots have here, it's meager.....

sorry to drift away from the topic, this is my last post w.r.t the above discussion regarding expats

[Capt Apache]

even if India was to employ american/european software engineers , would they really come and work here for a lesser pay ?



O HOW BRILLIANT! Obviously they wont and that is why you need to stop complaining that expats get paid more


I have nothing against expats coming to work in India, but when you say that solely because a lot of Indians are working abroad in fields other than aviation, a qualified and experienced Indian pilot must quit thinking about flying for a US/european/canadian/australian carrier that is looking for pilots.....


There were no expats here in aviation until 5 years ago my friend.They came here becoz it was necessary.And if our pilots had shown some maturity they would have already been on their way out.But no they had to make the Chairman so insecure that he lost all faith in them and started recruiting more expats even when it was not necessary.I won't be surprised if some years later there are similar oppurtunities in the West.These oppurtunists won't complain then,will they?

Thankyou for your last post.

[drive73]

Little Info: F/o's come into the right seat with 250 hrs. They wouldn't fly in the US or Uk or elsewhere even if they could. They would have to actually earn their way into the right seat of a jet. It takes a couple of years for them to get 1000 hrs, They get supervised landings when the Captain lets them, so they have 1000 hrs and 100 landings if their lucky!! At some point they are given the opportunity to upgrade into the ATR, a large percentage turn this down, because they are too good to fly a turboprop. They feel they are entitled to upgrade into the 737 with 1500 to 2000 hours. Very few places in the world where this can be done.
Maybe now with more information one can see why expats are needed. The reason we are paid more, is India all though charming is for the most part a S$%^ hole. I see more people crapping on the street in one day here, than I have seen in my whole life traveling around the world. I have only been to one place worse, Lagos Nigeria.
We don't get paid in the first week like someone on here stated. I got paid on the 15th last month and haven't been paid this month. Don't let these spoiled, entitled pilots mislead you. They have a real good gig over here and are going to screw it up. I wish I could have jumped into a 737 with 200 hrs.

[Wannabe Flyer]

may I ask how many of those 5 million Indians are expatriate pilots ?

I dont know how many but apparantly someone further up the blog has suggested it is possible.

Regarding your question if Indians would be allowed in the US the answer is yes. It is the labor laws of a country that rule over the hiring conditions of foreginers. If there was a shortage of skilled pilots in the US then the US airlines would be allowed to hire pilots under the H1 visa plan which has been raised repeatedly over the past years. Unfortunately in your field there is no shortage of skilled pilots in the US.

If you have an issue with expats it should be an appeal filed to the Indian Labor commission about changing our laws on hiring and giving work permits. Once the law is made companies are free to use it.

As far as comments of OBAMA putting a ban of H1 it is incorrect all he did was to freeze the annual increase in number of H1 visas. He did not ban them. These stood at 80,000 annually. He did not increase it to 100,000 as he felt the economy could not support it. Either way it did not matter as there were less than 60,000 applicants this year anyways.

Seems strikes are the furtherest things on the minds of millions who prefer to concentrate on putting food on the table.

[Fubaliera]

Guys come on pls support your fellow pilots in this protest, the the Indian mafia ceo dude

[drive73]

I can tell you from experience that this group of pilots are not helping themselves or the 12000 employees of Jet. The guys I fly with usually come to the right seat of a 737 with 250hrs. After supervised flight for a couple years, meaning they have a 1000 hrs and 100 landings if their lucky, they start to think they are ready for the left seat. At around 1500 to 2000 hours they usually get offered ATR left seat. They feel this position is beneath them and most refuse to upgrade until they get a 737 captain slot. This is why you don't see Indian pilots going to the US, UK, CAN or other countries. No way they would even come close to this kind of career progression. There is a reason expats are used, what company wants higher salary employees if they can get qualified locals for less.
India has some of the best work rules. Can you say 11 hour duty days.. They are not abused. The locals pick the best routes and the expats fly night and early morning flights (for the most part)which is fine.. These guys are selfish and have entitlement issues.
Somebody earlier lied saying the expats are always paid on time. I was paid on the 15th last month and still have not been paid this month.
The reason expats will never back these guys is they have very little to gripe about and when they do gripe they are always petitioning for the expats to leave! They have no problem being expats themselves in other middle east countries.
The reason expats get paid more is because of their experience and the fact that India isn't the most desirable place to live(one of the worst). Hopefully these selfish guys don't destroy a great company.. A company that treats it's employees pretty well. It is not perfect, but what place is??

[functionisthestyle]

Come on, don't drag expats into this.

Facts:

1) there are not enough Indian ATPL holders to occupy all the left seats in India. Someday there will be but not yet.

2) 3,000 hrs ttl time in left along with a 250-500 hr right seater, en-masse, is a recipe for disaster. Just because a few made it into the left seat quickly during the boom is not a justification for the practice to continue. Experience is important. I have well over 10,000 hrs ttl and I learn new things about this business everyday. You can't put a price on experience. Flying is the easy part, judgement is accomplished only through experience. I'm not saying you need 10 thousand hrs to be a commander. Just that expats do indeed bring value to the table by averaging UP the experience level in India as well as passing on their knowledge to young and upcoming Indian pilots. Expats are not your enemy.

3) Expats are paid the same as Indians at Jet. The difference is the housing allowance and the taxes. Housing allowance is necessary otherwise the airline will be required to pay $9,000/ mo for hotels for each expat. Nobody that I know of makes any money off the housing allowance. Because they're expats, they get over-charged for rent when they look for an apartment. And they have to take out a 5 lak loan ($10,000) to secure the apartment in the first place. Taxes, Indian gov't brought that on. Don't blame the expats. They come to India because of the net-pay contract. That worked well for years until someone in gov't saw an opportunity to make money in 2007. Instead of paying expats offshore, as was done before, now they're paid in India with the company picking up the tab on taxes. Net pay for contract of expats didn't change at all.

4) Housing allowance was cut by $750/ mo without consent of expats. That is $36,000 over life of 3-year contract. Paycut.

5) Tickets home cut from contract, without consent of expats. How much is that costing the expat pilot everytime he or she has to travel home to get back to the family? Paycut.

6) Indians get flight pay allowances, expats don't.

7) Indians get night-halt allowances, expats don't.

8) Indians call in sick all the time, thereby using expats to fly the shtty trips. Expats don't get that luxury.

9) Indians are home with family, expats aren't.

10) Expats are temporary workers. They are not here to permantly take any jobs. Be patient, once the experience level of Indian pilots gets high enough, all expats will be gone. Do you think for a minute the company wants to pay the expats tax bill if they didn't have to? Your real gripe should be against DECs who permantly join the company. How come I never see any Jet pilots complaining about Direct Entry IAF Captains? Or Direct Entry 737 Captains all of whom are Indians and joined from another company. Or at Indigo you get DECs who come over from Jet's A330 right seat positions and take left seat opportunities. I have seen Indian ATR skippers leave Jet for A320 DEC positions. THOSE pilots will certainly affect your progression. They will NEVER move out of your way, unless they move to another airline. Expats must leave eventually (and want to, believe me) and most will be gone in a year or two. It is a guaranteed natural progression strategy. IMO, Indian FOs really screwed themselves by bitching so much about expats last year. Airlines across the country simply hired Indian DECs to fill their left seat slots instead of bringing in more expats. Good luck getting those guys to help with your movement to the left seat or WB.

Besides, the way most Indians treat their own is disgusting. While I'll admit it doesn't happen all the time, I see a lot of domineering by Indian commanders to their FOs. This is not how CRM is suppose to work. If anything, the Indians love to fly with expats from the West 'cause they're so laid back and don't get their too excited over small issues.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Thank you for clearly spelling out how it works as far as the wages and salaries go. The problem in India is that few are willing to read black and white before shooting thier mouths off. Mob mentality prevails and it is very sad.

All feel collectively if they yell and scream they can get away with murder as happens often literaly and figuratively in India.

1.1 billion and each one wanting to be a leader as our esteemed politicans have shown the way to power and wealth and contacts. For once if they concentrated on bettering themselves it would be better.

From what you say function I feel really sorry for CRM in the coming years. Maybe the govt will need to step in and stop the ragging like in colleges of younger crew.

[babboo57]

the union is being disbanded. what are the implications of this ?

[alouette3]

In the short term, bad news for the 4 or 5 pilots who were sacked and have been hired back. They will be on the radar now and under the microscope.The slightest slip up (bad haircut,"average" sim.check,minute late for departure etc.) and they are history.
In the long term worse news for Indian pilots. When (not if) the boom returns,look out for nasty moves by management to cut perks,increase working hours and retain pay cuts. All in the name of recovering from "crippling" losses. Once a union has been faced down, the group that was in the union is pretty much dead in the water.
Of course,all this may not happen.But I am cautiously pessimistic. You see, the popping sound I hear from this distance is the sound of champagne being opened in the homes of Goyal ,Mallya, the DGCA and all the other fat cats who have learned a valuable lesson today-----pilots as a group do not have the cojones to stick together and it is very easy to break them up.Because, essentially if there is one who wants to stand up to management (insert government for later use) there will be five others who will not back him /her up.
Enjoy the coming carnage, gentlemen.
Alt3.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Yes we will enjoy it. If you believe you have been wronged you will stand up for it, if you have been misled then you will not. The truth will set you free.

As an SLF I do hope I do not get the privilege to be transported by the adventurous 4 ever. Maybe Jet should publish their names and photos before every flight to see how many SLF do not board.

I am not for unions in such a highly paid environment. If you don't like what you have quit and go elsewhere.

And yes even some SLF are popping champagne corks as the truth is now out for all to see.............Regardless of income there are enough buggers out there in India to shove a knife in your back. Cover your bases from now on with a mix of nationalities and make sure you break their back when they rear their ugly heads.

:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{

[functionisthestyle]

alouett3

Nah, mgmt lost this battle BIGTIME. Of course they'll try to put lipstick on the whole pig of a situation but in the end they capitulated on everything they said they would hold firm.

The chairman, exec mgmt team and the BOD assured everyone they will NEVER take the sacked pilots back, they did. They assured everyone they would take punitive action against the agitators, they won't (as of now anyway based on the MOU). And they promised the public they don't need the Indian national pilot to move forward. Clearly they do.

Simply put, they cut their losses. Which as of now are at $40 million... probably a lot more once the post-strike costs are factored in.

Now who eventually wins the war remains to be seen. If mgmt is smart they'll put this behind them and LEARN A HARD LESSON. If arrogance prevails, they'll try to settle the score with the pilots down the line. This will ultimately lead to another confrontation and likely further demise of the Jet Airways brand. Hopefully intelligence over arrogance prevails.

The problem with aviation in the new millenium is that most managers, VPs and other execs are "yes" men. Meaning they tell their superiors whatever they want to hear. If the chairman says "break the back of labor", they assure him it can be done. Unfortunatley, the Chairman and BOD have no counter-advice such as how expensive it is to take on labor; that very often the end result is millions of dollars in un-warranted losses and severe, even long term, damage to the brand.

When I was in mgmt, I faced daily assaults by my exec colleagues because I spoke my mind. I often told the big bosses that their time was better spent building the brand/ running the business, than picking trivial spats with those "damn pilots." Evenutally, the sr exec team and the chairman appreciated my honesty and I prevailed in all politcal attempts to destroy my reputation. The truth always comes out in the end but it was a daily grind during the process and I was very unpopular, even controversial, due to my common-sense opinions. Very few mgrs survive in such an environment, if they're even selected in the first place.

There are ONLY TWO paths to take with respect to labor. Beat them down, and try to save costs that way. Or use them as a partner (aka: part of the solution rather than part of the problem) to taking on the real enemy, competition and over-burdening regulation. The former usually fails over the longer term. Yet mgmts across the world generally fall short of learning from this. The latter can indeed work if managed properly, ala, Southwest Airlines in the US. Despite being a LCC, their pilots are the highest paid in the industry. Why? Because mgmt continously engages them as partners to the overall business rather than an impediament. I'm not saying to give to every demand by labor. Rather, to recoginze the power of unity and the economics of fairness.

[rdr]

alouettte

the description and applicability of management styles refers to mature organisations with track records of a minimum of 20 years and more. until companies go through this period of learning, they are incomplete. many dont survive. Jet has been through the good times, and now is faced with the contrary, resulting in management and the pilots swimming around unchartered waters. unfortunately, the opportunistic media and the government are totally clueless as usual. most expats have been through this, some more than once.
it will be next to impossible to develop fairness and unity in a system which advocates, "everyman for himself."

[Wannabe Flyer]

The Indian labor ministry is working towards defining if a pilot should be considered labor or an executive. A definition of labor amongst many on the web is


a social class comprising those who do manual labor or work for wages; "there is a shortage of skilled labor in this field"
productive work (especially physical work done for wages); "his labor did not require a great deal of skill"Now a Grey area because the definition of executive is (again one of many)


a person responsible for the administration of a business
persons who administer the law
administrator: someone who manages a government agency or department
having the function of carrying out plans or orders etc.; "the executive branch"
While executive officer literally refers to a person responsible for the performance of duties involved in running an organization, the exact meaning of the role is variable, depending on the organization.So what would the pilots on this forum like to be termed

1) Labor
2) Executives

[leftseatview]

THE ILO (Intnl Labour Organization)an UN body recognizes Airline Pilots, as highly skilled labour.
Hence bestowing them the right to form a trade union.

However in order to be able to protect the legitimate interests of all its members(and not a few selfish/egoistic individuals) it needs to ensure that its actions dont cripple the very industry that its members depend on,in earning their livelihood.

A steady phase out of all expats is the writing on the wall,and they know it.

The smart thing to do would be to learn as much as you can from the good and experienced ones, before they go

And not to try to needlesly speed up thier phase out (due to personal greed and ambition)

Because quite a few of the new locals are not yet ready for the left seat.
( Though some are already there, and you can hear them on the R/T everyday, and only marvel at the technology that is preventing them from making smoking holes in the ground)