Jet Airways Pilots Strike [Archive]

EISNN

9th Sep 2009, 01:02

this is the link extracted from the Indian Times.

NEW DELHI: At least 130 flights of Jet Airways were on Tuesday cancelled from the four major metros after a large chunk of pilots failed to report for work protesting against sacking of two of their colleagues, a step termed as "sabotage of operations" by the airlines.

Passengers in Mumbai were the worst hit with 115 flights out of the total 345 failing to take off while at least 10 flights of Jet Airways and its subsidiary JetLite were cancelled in Delhi. In Chennai, six flights were cancelled, including three international, and four in Kolkata.

However, the morning flight of the private carrier from Kolkata for Dhaka took off as scheduled, Jet Airways officials said.

Hit by the crisis, Jet Airways chairman Naresh Goyal met civil aviation secretary Madhavan Nambiar on Tuesday morning for about half-an-hour and is understood to have discussed the situation.

Ministry officials said the government was closely monitoring the situation.

Jet Airways in a press statement said that a section of the pilots have resorted to a "simulated strike by reporting sick".

"This organised activity is a planned sabotage of operations that will damage the airline's operations and inconvenience the travelling public," it said.

Jet Airways said all affected guests can get a full refund or rebook themselves on an alternate date without any cancellation or reissue charges, but passengers were not amused.

"The least the airline people could have done is informed me that my flight was being cancelled," complained VS Sharma who was to fly to Mumbai from Delhi. "I could have made alternative arrangements. Really, this is very, very bizarre."

The pilots have been demanding the reinstatement of two of their colleagues, who were sacked recently. The airline has some 700 pilots on its rolls.

"Regrettably, a section of the pilots who were rostered for operations have resorted to a simulated strike by reporting sick," a Jet Airways spokesperson said in a statement on Tuesday morning.

"Jet Airways is taking all steps to minimise the inconvenience to its guests. The airline will make all efforts to operate the maximum number of flights," the statement said.

"However, perforce, some flights may have to be combined or cancelled; we will try to accommodate our guests on alternate flights."

The newly formed National Aviators Guild, a union of some Jet Airways pilots, has called the strike. They are protesting the sacking of two of their colleagues earlier this month. The airline has declined to recognise this union.

Girish Kaushik, the president of the guild, said they had issued the mandatory 14-day notice to the airline, adding the sacking of the two pilots was an act of vendetta for starting a new union and totally unjustified.

The two sacked senior pilots, Balaraman and Sam Thomas, were told of their termination by e-mail. The pilots claim that they were given the pink slip as they were instrumental in forming the new union.

"My sincere apologies to passengers. All we want is that the management takes the two pilots back. That is our only demand," Kaushik said. "We are not on strike. This is an individual decision by each pilot," Kaushik said.

Jet Airways said it has had been in conciliatory talks with the union and the regional labour commissioner had warned that any strike during this period would be deemed illegal as per the Industrial Disputes Act.

Roadtrip

9th Sep 2009, 01:39

Every management gets the workforce they deserve.

akerosid

9th Sep 2009, 03:49

"if im not mistaken, jet airways and kingfisher merged a short while ago."

Both airlines were involved in mergers - but not with each other; Jet acquired Sahara, which became Jet's low cost subsidiary, JetLite. Kingfisher merged with Air Deccan, which was a low cost carrier.

I may be naive in saying this, but is there not Indian legislation covering this? I recall that Air India FEs went on strike a few years back and there were not dismissals (although I appreciate that AI is a state owned company). Surely, even if there is not legislation, Jet must realise that it cannot behave in this way and that the further sackings only exacerbates the situation, rather than bringing it to a conclusion. Good luck to the 9W pilots in getting through this, but it's sad that this can happen in a democracy in this day and age.

weido_salt

9th Sep 2009, 04:43

Sad as it is to see 2 pilots and now more sacked. I suspect it will have only one sad ending.

Jet are determined they will not be lumbered with a unionised work force.

Then comes the oldest management trick in the book. Divide and rule.

As the days goes by more and more pilots will break ranks and return to work. The management want to downsize so they need to get rid of crews. When enough pilots trickle back to work, the management will draw a line that day and say all those at work today will keep their jobs. The rest out.

The remaining crews will be a more manageable work force to contend with. The Kraut CEO did say there would be a solution in the next few days, so I suspect this is what he has in mind.

Colocolo

9th Sep 2009, 05:18

[QUOTE]Every management gets the workforce they deserve./QUOTE]

Now, that is a fact!!:ok:

Cheers
Colocolo

Schumi - Red Baron

9th Sep 2009, 05:21

Then comes the oldest management trick in the book. Divide and rule.

Well, I think it will come down to the unity amongst the pilots. If they are united then the management might have to agree to their demands.

Action against 5 more pilots.

fullstory (http://www.ptinews.com/news/272125_Jet-takes-action-against-five-more-pilots)

Colocolo

9th Sep 2009, 05:45

Timing
It must be considered: with the airline barely aloft amidst the worst crysis in the industry history, the idea of creating an union, a good thing by itself, but it's at the wrong time, wrong place and by the wrong people...

It's very likely that their terrible mistake will kill their company and jobs.
It happened many times in the past and seems that nobody learn the lesson.
Hopefully they realize this before is too late.

......Then..... when, where and who?

Thanks in advance.

Colocolo:confused:

Wannabe Flyer

9th Sep 2009, 06:10

A previous link giving an objective view was deleted by the MODS. So to keep it simple

It is not a strike, they have taken casual leave. This is permitted for 2 days under Indian law and guess what they get paid for it under Indian Law. If they wanted to stand up for what they believe they should also have the guts to go on strike instead of taking such an escapist and disruptive route. Give ample notice allow company to plan and respond and do it in a civilized manner.

Unions were good in the past especially for blue collar workers to defend their rights. In this day and age see where the auto unions have led the US car industry. Other posts on AI and their bloated staff are the result of unions there.

Why after all these years form a Union. I find it hard to believe pilots are being given an unsafe environment to work in or being over worked. Politics is a good paymaster and I suspect 2 senior captains seem to have such aspirations. This will lead all including Jet down the Tube.....

Overall if you read the media reports and public reaction the Pilots have come out as the "bad Boys" in this. Very very sad that in such hard times when the losses are a published fact good employees of companies cause further losses, grief and trauma on poor guidance.

I suspect the ex pats are staying away from this cause they know in the end it is about $$$$'s and in some of the countries where they are from the unemployment situation needs no explanation. I guess it would take some people a soup line to explain what it means to struggle to survive and what it means to be plain greedy.

:*

Quietachiever

9th Sep 2009, 06:25

Congratulations to the pilots of Jet Airways who have done what most have should have done on numerous occasions. They had the balls to do it .
Well done gentlemen/women.

Huck

9th Sep 2009, 06:48

Unions were good in the past especially for blue collar workers to defend their rights. In this day and age see where the auto unions have led the US car industry. Other posts on AI and their bloated staff are the result of unions there.

You're looking at the wrong industry, mate.

US airlines have heavily unionized pilot groups. They somehow manage to stagger into the air every morning.....

ELAC

9th Sep 2009, 06:51

Things are more complicated than they seem.

Unless you've spent time working with Jet or at least for an airline in India there are a lot of nuances to the management/pilots relationship there that you'll be missing. This situation is certainly nowhere near as simple or obvious as either party wishes to portray it.

It's true that the company has changed things such as the rules of progression on the Indian pilot group several times without sufficient mutual negotiation. However, it's also true that a goodly number of the pilot group routinely take individual actions that would be firing offences in most airlines elsewhere but that go undisciplined at Jet and similarly at other airlines in India.

From time spent in India my observation would be that pilot/management relations there can't be directly compared with what is considered normal in the rest of the world. The costs of open labour warfare, however, are about the same. Hopefully the cooler heads on both sides will prevail sooner rather than later, before they do each other irrepairable damage.

Wannabe Flyer

9th Sep 2009, 07:28

US airlines have heavily unionized pilot groups. They somehow manage to stagger into the air every morning.....

1) Have they gone enmass on casual leave in the US?
2) Are they asking for pay hikes in the current market scenario?

iflytb20

9th Sep 2009, 14:42

Wannabe Flyer
Give ample notice allow company to plan and respond and do it in a civilized manner.
Well, the union had given the company a 14 day advance notice regarding the strike on the 24th of August.

Cheers

Wiley

9th Sep 2009, 22:49

I wonder if history will repeat itself? Will British charter companies (and their pilots) trip over themselves to take their aircraft out to India to save the day? (As they did with another ex-colony 20 years ago, almost to the month.)

boaclhryul

9th Sep 2009, 22:54

...a 14 day advance notice regarding the strike...

"I have a hunch I'll be sick for a day, 14 days from now..."

Metro man

10th Sep 2009, 01:16

The UN Declaration of Human Rights affirms the right to be a member of a trade union, therefore the pilots are perfectly entitled to have one.

What they do with the union is another matter. With global losse running into billions worldwide, now is probably not the best time for unrealistic demands in terms of pay and conditions.

Unions are very much a two edged sword, we've all seen what they've done at General Motors. However I've worked in industries with no union representation and had conditions far below the norm.

I hope their union succeeds and I hope it behaves realistically.

nitpicker330

10th Sep 2009, 03:07

Not another manager telling the staff they have to take it up the a***during a downturn?

I'm sick to death of managers making the staff suffer while the managers and shareholders are ok. Why the hell do we let them get away with it.

Good on the Jet Pilot's, go for it boys and girls.

weido_salt

10th Sep 2009, 03:24

Part of the Guilds demands apparently was the push to get rid of the remaining expats employed in India ASAP.

I think they may have shot themselves in the foot as the body count of pilots is continuing to mount and the final count will be high indeed.

The company on the other hand know they can get pilots to replace them (strike breakers) within 24 hours if necessary from anywhere in the world.

spedfast

10th Sep 2009, 04:00

Part of the Guilds demands apparently was the push to get rid of the remaining expats employed in India ASAP

The guild's only demand was/is to to re-instate the two pilots who were sacked for initiating the union in the capacity of president and treasurer.

Nothing to do with expat policy, pay hikes, working conditions, monsoon Cb clouds etc.

gabu1234

10th Sep 2009, 06:07

The only demand of the pilots is to re-instate the 2 pilots without any conditions, and then they went on to sack 2 more and probably more to follow.

The executive director actually went on air and said that "the chairman has the right to sack anyone he wishes at anytime without any reasons?????". This has acutally caused the media to turn there backs towards the managment.

The worst part of all this is these guys are all working for a psychotic chairman with an inflated ego and absoultely no power of reasoning.

fullforward

10th Sep 2009, 06:14

Now it looks like that an ego's battle is taking place. The main loosers will be the pilots and workers that will eventually kill their airline and their jobs.
It's hard to think about an industrial action so badly planned, executed and operated like this. And with so dire consequences...
And the worst: the pilots are not earning any simpathy from local media and passengers. Only from competition.:confused:

spedfast

10th Sep 2009, 08:16

Jet is putting 6-8 new expats online on their 737 fleet this week. More inductions expected.
It is reaching out to those expats who were earlier offered positions, but then put indefinitely on hold.

seniortrash

10th Sep 2009, 08:26

The company on the other hand know they can get pilots to replace them (strike breakers) within 24 hours if necessary from anywhere in the world. You clearly have no knowledge or experience of India so may I suggest that you do not pontificate about such things.

To work in India, you need an employment visa - reckon on 5-7 days minimum to get one issued.
To fly an Indian-registered aircraft you need a FATA (Foreign Aircrew Temporary Authorisation) from the DGCA. This will take several weeks to get done.
You will need an Indian Government Security Check to get the FATA - mine took over 3 months.

Several of the recently-terminated Jet Airways expat pilots have been approached to return to the airline - effectively as 'strike-breakers' (I emphasise that this dispute is not technically a strike). I can happily report that these management approaches have been ignored or rejected. The Jet Airways national pilots have never asked for the support from the expat community, but they are effectively getting it.

The Indian press is rarely a reliable source of information. The journalists seem to be fed inaccurate stories by both sides to create their often hysterical pieces for their editors.

Sadly, this dispute will probably only weaken the company and the standing of the pilot body. There are rarely 'winners' in this type of situation.

4PW's

10th Sep 2009, 12:47

Just a thought, but if you or your company is even remotely contemplating breaking this action, think long and hard about how safe you'll feel in India, a foreign land if ever there was one. It matters not what foreigners think of the rights and wrongs of this action. All that matters is the Indian pilots themselves deal with their concerns and problems in their own way. Bollocks to all the pontificating experts in lands outside India itself. Best wishes and good speed to the Union and the pilots involved.

Carnage Matey!

10th Sep 2009, 13:03

Just a thought, but if you or your company is even remotely contemplating breaking this action, think long and hard about how safe you'll feel in India, a foreign land if ever there was one

I don't think it would be productive to go down that line. If people were willing to operate to India when gunmen were running round hotels shooting people I doubt strike action would deter them. Furthermore I doubt any companies that were considering strike breaking would give their pilots the choice as to whether they wished to participate or not.

condorbaaz

10th Sep 2009, 15:15

MM
The only demand is to reinstate the pilots who were sacked becaose they formed a union.
No other reason given

Airbubba

10th Sep 2009, 15:33

1) Have they gone enmass on casual leave in the US?
2) Are they asking for pay hikes in the current market scenario?

A decade ago, American Airlines pilots represented by the Allied Pilots Association staged a massive 'sickout'. Judge Joe Kendall approved a temporary restraining order against the job action, which most of the pilots ignored. As a result, APA got taken to the woodshed and a $45.5 million fine was levied and the fine was upheld on appeal. I'm sure it was wrapped into a later concession package, I doubt much of it was actually paid. It was the heady days before 9-11 when AA pilots were making top dollar.

After the massive fine, I don't believe pilot sickouts have been in the vogue in the U.S.

Don't know if they've had a recent reality check but a couple of years ago the APA was asking for a 53% pay increase:

American Pilots Seek 53 Percent Pay Hike - Business News - redOrbit (http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1115824/american_pilots_seek_53_percent_pay_hike/index.html)

nada1234

10th Sep 2009, 15:38

Before anything else, let me make it clear that I am not part of jet airways but a similar stakeholder in another private carrier. What happens in Jet now will affect all of us directly or indirectly. Having said that kudos to these guys for displaying an unprecedented UNITY and maintaining a DIGNITY inspite of all the muck that Jet management is trying to throw on them. Hats off to the president and secretary of NAG for the manner they have handled the press. Yesterday, I was horrified to see how Mr Pronoy Roy (on NDTV) was trying to browbeat these guys and how they stood up to him and to all other media sharks.:D:D:D
The background as I am hearing goes to almost two years since the time Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience to handle the big birds being brought in. At the same time they started ignoring SWIP, which was the link between the pilots and mgmt. Jet guys have been on go slow since then and we could see that often cursing them whenever we got stuck behind them. The things came to a head when the Jet mgmt, in true barbaric style, tried to completely ignore SWIP, going to the extent of even question its legitimacy. It appears, in order to give it legitimacy, SWIP was reborn as NAG which now has a legal standing and of course the Jet mgmt did not like it one bit. That was the point of open confrontation resulting in the happenings of last three days. By going to labour commissioner, Jet mgmt has given this body its legitimacy and now by irrationally sticking to a weird demand of getting it derecognized, they are going to go nowhere. Lets face it, union is here to stay and the earlier the Jet mgmt recognizes it the better it is. At least they will stop losing the Rs.18-20 crore that they are doing now. OR is there a sinister plan of Jet mgmt to declare a lock out and get out of all its losses by blaming the pilots? This is another theory going around of how naresh goyal is trying to get out of the mess that he has created and finding the creditors now gnawing at his heels.
What next? A lot if like me, you are also a stakeholder in this profession.
At present, NAG is fighting its own battle, ICPA and IPG are doing their own things. Why not a national pilots union by whatever name it is called? There is an urgent need to have it like in other countries where aviation has come of age. Today everybody takes pilots for a ride whether it is DGCA or the company mgmt or the media or the general public. See what happened to the “Scientific” FDTL rules. The money and muscle power of airlines got it overruled and now work is on on a watered down version which will invariably serve the interests of Airlines rather than the affected parties that is us pilots. Similarly, look at the number of expats and compare that to the number of unemployed pilots in India. Except doing lip service, has the DGCA/ministry done anything for these guys? – NO. Unless we unite and negotiate as a block of affected parties, nobody is going to listen. The airlines have formed their own union – FIA, then why not us?
The biggest casualty that is happening due to us being fragmented is flight safety and we are in the direct line of fire – blame the pilot for whatever happens.
I would request that other stakeholders speak up and not only extend their support to jet guys but go further and join together.
Happy landings!!!
:8

admiral ackbar

10th Sep 2009, 16:25

You're looking at the wrong industry, mate.

US airlines have heavily unionized pilot groups. They somehow manage to stagger into the air every morning.....

Yes and we all know how healthy the US aviation industry is... :confused::rolleyes:

The parallel with the car industry is really bang-on I am afraid re: pensions, healthcare liabilities, etc.

Coireall

10th Sep 2009, 17:56

You wrote: The company on the other hand know they can get pilots to replace them (strike breakers) within 24 hours if necessary from anywhere in the world.
This is not true. To work in India, you first need security clearance before you get to India. This takes from 6 weeks to 3 months or more in some cases.
Then after arrival in India, you must do an oral exam at the DGCA in Delhi to get your FATA. (Foreign Aircrew Temporary Authorisation). After 90 days you do the written exam.
Meanwhile, there is a mountain of paperwork, clearances etc. So getting Expats in and flying within 24 hours is not an option open to the management.

Big Pistons Forever

10th Sep 2009, 17:57

Southwest Airlines in the USA consistantly ranks at the top of travelers surveys and has been profitable over the last 5 airline boom bust cycles. It is also fully unionised. It seems to me the only difference between Southwest and all the other US airlines , which are universally basket cases, ultimately has nothing to do with pilot unions. It is all about the quality, or lack there of, of the management. I think it is also intersting to note that Southwest has the highest paid narrow body pilots in the USA. Gee who would have thunk it....Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success.

Flintstone

10th Sep 2009, 18:16

.....Jet started actively hiring expats at the cost of local talent who had more than adequate experience.....

Genuine question.

Why, given that expats are generally more expensive, would a company do this, particularly in the current climate? If a local pilot was capable of doing the job what would be the point apart from being able to ditch the expat more easily should the need arise?

Neptunus Rex

10th Sep 2009, 18:49

G'Day Big Pistons Forever!
As an old handler of Rolls Royce Griffons, Bristol Hercules and Wright Cyclones, I love your monicker. Before I am labelled a Luddite, I have also spent many a carefree hour flying Pratts and Trents. "You can't feather a hole!"

"Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success."

Mate, you have hit it on the head. The 'Bean Counters' who cannot see further than the next six month profit forecast; the 'Career Management' who swallow the Bean Counters' ineptitude and, worst of all, the Training Departments who have allowed the 200 hour prima donnae into our cockpits, they all have a lot to answer for.

All power to South West Airlines. Others should follow their exemplary record, however, not in Asia I feel.

Neppie

:sad:

blaireau

10th Sep 2009, 19:54

The Expats were employed in the absense of any local talent or experience.

Jet's 777 operation has been built on the expertise of some 120 hugely experienced Expat pilots from many of the world's most prestigious airlines. Locals converting to the international operations have had to convert their thinking processes from 737 national short-haul ops into a much broader perspective. This has not been a rapid or easy transition.

It would appear that certain of the sacked individuals appeal to "nationalist" opinion in order to cover their own inadequacies and resentment of outside expertise.

Significantly, much of the senior airline management remains in non-national, ie expert, hands.

ELAC

10th Sep 2009, 20:10

As the NAG has stated, the issue immediately at hand isn't about expats, so why start into that?

FWIW, I was there and a part of the implementation of the widebody international fleet. There were many very qualified and capable Indian pilots, but there was also a need for the type and international experience brought by the expats. Both parts were equally necessary to the success of that expansion.

One other observation: As a pilot with a background in pilot/management relations I have never seen another company where the pilot group exerted as much ultimate power over the course of company affairs as was the case at Jet. Painting the situation as simply big bad company punishing poor little pilots for attempting to form a union is, I suspect, a gross underestimation of all the machinations that have gone before to bring the situation to a head.

I have great respect for my former Indian colleagues and wish them well, but I also have sympathy for the difficulties of managing an airline in India. I hope both parties quickly realize that their current course of action is quickly causing great damage to everyone's future prospects.

ELAC

kotakota

10th Sep 2009, 20:49

To all those who quote current timings to get expat pilots online in India , remember that the Australian dispute got round that by bringing in foreign hulls with their crews - problem solved .
There is however , a huge difference with this dispute . The Australian government in 1989 was desperate to get any aircraft in the air to support their then-booming tourism sector . I suspect the Indian Gov could give 2 hoots about Jets survival - more business for their problem child AI etc ?
Interesting times indeed.
Mr Goyals statement that 'the pilots are behaving like terrorists ' , especially after last Novembers business in Mumbai , shows that the man has scant regard for anybody . He does not deserve to win anything .

jimmygill

10th Sep 2009, 21:28

I suspect the Indian Gov could give 2 hoots about Jets survival - more business for their problem child AI etc ?

AI is not a problem child. It is an abandoned and abused orphan. The rise of bilateral agreements and at cost of AI, and also the rise of Jet in Mid east sector, was at cost of AI, while the govt refused to watch out the sector. The inefficiencies of AI and willingness of officials to get into bilaterals added too much capacity to the system. If only any one of these factors was not at work the Indian aviation industry would have still been growing steadily.

weido_salt

11th Sep 2009, 01:05

spedfast

Yes you are correct, the reinstatement of the sacked pilots is the demand for the NAG to instruct it's members to get back to work.

However the NAG have filed a petition in the Madras HC, against JA for employing foreign pilots.

Clearly the chairman of JA is no fool. He is aware of the number of Indians wanting promotion and who are out of work. He has employed the expats for a reason and their phasing out cannot happen overnight.

"The truth is out there."

fullforward

11th Sep 2009, 02:18

A collective insanity is taking place. Some facts:

Jet Airways has established as a first truly world class airline in India. After so many awards the company deserves to be a reason of proud for India.

As well, it establised an international network on record time, with new routes, the best equipment, the best service and the most experienced pilots available in the world, with impeccable backgrounds from the top airlines.

Jet accomplished what for any other airline took many years. Very unfortunately, was hit by the perfect storm: almost immediately after start their new routes and spending multimillion dollars the oil went to USD 140 and soon thereafter the recession hit, mid 2008.

So, when all the investment and hard work was supposed to be paid back, the exact reverse occurred. Not even the smarter financial advisor could ever predicted it. Bottom line: here we have a company just struggling for survive.

It looks like it was entirely inappropriate timing to think about establishing an union right now! And, from some insighters info (I cannot confirm these facts), the guys involved on it have personnal issues with the management. One of them is a long haul captain that had been failed twice by expats TRE and had a nickname "the sleeper" for obvious reason.
I say again, I cannot confirm these facts, it comes from somebody closer to the facts.
So, what's the point in sacrificing an ailing airline(and of course, the passangers) on somebody's egos?

As for the expats, when the company decided to contract them it was just a business decision: the administration fortunately knows that experience is the most important asset in this industry. Otherwise it would be like KAL history back on the 80's: many disasters involving captains with less than 4000 hours. No matter what the wannabes with 200 hs on their pockets think about it...when it comes to smoking debris and headlines one have to understand the hard facts.
Recently there was a basic emergency poorly handled by a relatively unexperienced captain on the wide body fleet that could easily lead to a disaster. As well a number of unstabilized approaches due to lack of experience... I cannot confirm these facts, as it was passed to me by an internal source.

So it's time to get the heads cool, and negotiate the best course of action.
The present confrontation will have no winners.

varkey007

11th Sep 2009, 03:42

watch the news , the victory will come

Wannabe Flyer

11th Sep 2009, 05:53

watch the news , the victory will come

I hope not at a cost to the aviation industry. 7% percent of the workforce making up 40% of the payroll is how the media is describing the Pilots. I feel pilots are management! I have never heard of management forming a union. I appreciate that the only 2 demands are to have the union active and to re instate self styled politicians from within their ranks. Once this is done how long before they start wielding their muscles for salary hikes pensions and other such things as the AI union has done.

A question for the captains who are part of this, reference a thread on PPRUNE about an American Airlines captain landing in Miami and off loading a purser who he felt was insubordinate. A large amount of Pilots felt that it was correct and he perceived that threat and while a bit high handed as the commander of the flight he had the right. Well is not Goyal the commander of your airline? Does he not enjoy the same right to ask a person responsible for hundereds of lives and billions of investment dollars in a company to get off as he felt his actions jeopordized the operation of his aircraft percieved or not?

I for one would not want to put my life in the hands of a disgruntled employee weather it be a train, a plane or Mcdonalds. :bored:

Habari

11th Sep 2009, 06:41

Don"t posters on Pprune ever get tired of the "expat" bulls--t! If its not from Indians, its from Nigerians.
Please mods if the topic ever gets off the thread to racism or ex-pat nonsense kindly close it.

alouette3

11th Sep 2009, 14:25

Wannabe Flyer,

The 7%you talk about is the 7% that generates the revenue.There will be no AIRline without trained and qualified pilots.Would you tell you cardiac surgeon to take a paycut because he takes the lion's share of you bill but puts in the least effort (figuratively) during a by pass? After all , the nurses do all the preparation, a flunky removes the vein from the leg, someonelse opens up the chest and someone else closes it.
As to Naresh Goyal. He is not a commander of anything and is not responsible for anyone's lives. He is a multimillionaire and he made his millions on the backs of the very people he is now calling terrorists. Once a "baniya" always a baniya I guess.He should return to selling oil at the corner store.:mad:
Forming unions is not all about wages and benefits. Sometimes it can be about job security,respect and defense against exploitation.
How soon the Indians forget the exploitation of labour at the hands of the British (the shop keepers of the world) that pretty much beggared the country.
alt3.

411A

11th Sep 2009, 15:13

If one is old enough to have been in the airline industry for a long time (especially in Asia) then one finds that the Indians have been just as expat-minded as anyone else.
I watched with some amusement in the late seventies as early retiree Captains from AI migrated toward a (then) small SE Asian airline.
The same folks then went on to tell the local First Officers that they would never amount to a hill of beans, and what the airline needed was more of those expats from the sub-contenent.
Fortunately, the local management watched this with little amusement, and couldn't get rid of the expat sub-contenent folks quick enough...in fact, the DC-10 contracts were structured so as to exclude this group entirely.
What goes around comes around....nearly always.:hmm:

gabu1234

12th Sep 2009, 07:38

Okay let me clear something about local pilots in india first, there are approx 40-50 of us on b737 with almost 10000 hrs of experience, dont you think it is our turn to fly the widebodies?????

Secondly regarding the the quote above "LOYAL CUSTOMERS and PAYING PASSENGERS", wouldnt the passengers like to know that they were flying with pilots whose frustration levels were peaking, and incidently these was showing in the DFDR recordings with a dramatic increase in hard landings and small incidents.

Thirdly, let me ask any american or european here, can we as indians come to your country and fly as senior captains ahead of all the other pilots flying there - obviously not. We have nothing against expats, its just that why put them ahead of people of our own country??/

And lastly India being a democratic country, we are exercising our "right to form an association" written under the constitution of india.

It is for these reasons it was decided to form a union and to get our demands met and make our airline a safer and more employee friendly airline.

weido_salt

12th Sep 2009, 08:45

gabu1234

I really hope you and the other frustrated are calling in sick for the sake of the company and of your passengers. With that attitude you should not be left in charge of anything.

If you are not happy with your lot, then leave and dont try and take the company and a load of pax with you.

dragon330

12th Sep 2009, 09:47

Gabu 1234 seems to believe it's his turn to fly the wide-bodies.

In my observation, very few of the Indian pilots wish to be away from home for more than a few hours. After more than 2 years of operation, only a very few have crossed the North Atlantic or Pacific.

This is mostly a status matter so they can boast of flying large aeroplanes.

Of the pilots dismissed by Jet Airways, one captain (with a small c) spent most of his 777 flight deck time fast asleep having ensured that as many windows as possible were blocked out by charts and newspapers. His waking hours were not much more impressive, although they were spent impressing the cabin crew in the galley areas.

Wannabe Flyer

12th Sep 2009, 14:31

The 7%you talk about is the 7% that generates the revenue.

Sorry I forgot Goyal makes the pilots do everything from booking tickets to serving the food and flying. Last I checked it was a collective effort so please do not take credit for something that you are collectivly and not individually responsible. Do you also want to take responsibility for the 226 crs loss this quarter? And yes a cardio surgeon is squat without his entire team!

Sometimes it can be about job security,respect and defense against exploitation.

Yes I forgot you work for minimum wages, he makes you fly pieces of junk while whipping your :mad: and makes you work 24/7....... Buddy if you want to understand what exploitation is look elsewhere. You always had the choice to move to other airlines when the going was good.

How soon the Indians forget the exploitation of labour at the hands of the British (the shop keepers of the world) that pretty much beggared the country.

Why wont we Indians get over our hangover from 62 years ago. For crying out loud most of this country was born way way after the Brits left, so I would beg to differ on this. As far as beggering a country it first starts by disrupting capatilistic enterprise and then goes on. Glad the Reds did not win anything this time around as they subscribe to such thought processes.

He is a multimillionaire and he made his millions on the backs of the very people

Socialists spite others success much like crabs in a bucket don't let one get out. Talk about hangovers from the socialist days when it was a crime to be rich. And hey I am sure along the way 13000 people got good incomes over the past 16 years and he made rich people of quite a few along the way, so what if they did not become as rich as him.

Wannabe Flyer

12th Sep 2009, 14:42

frustration levels were peaking, and incidently these was showing in the DFDR recordings with a dramatic increase in hard landings and small incidents.

Ouch that is scary, more the reason he should get rid of such a frustrated bunch! Learn to diffrentiate professonal and personal.

Thirdly, let me ask any american or european here, can we as indians come to your country and fly as senior captains ahead of all the other pilots flying there

Under US labor laws the answer to your above question is yes. If there is a shortage of a skill in an industry that cannot be filled by Green Card/US citizens then a company is allowed to not only recruit but also apply for his work permit (more commonly known as an H1) provided he gets equal fair pay and is not subject to exploitation while in the US. This is applicable to all nationalities. :cool: However the reason why Indians have not gotten the opportunity to do so is because the US already has an over supply of skilled (read many hours) pilots/FO etc etc and is churning them out faster than here in India. Therefore as per US law no shortage no outside employment. Take your grouse to the Indian labour laws as they make the rules which one has to play by! I can't speak for Europe.

And lastly India being a democratic country, we are exercising our "right to form an association" written under the constitution of india

As he is excecising his right not to accept it. 2 way street.

It is for these reasons it was decided to form a union and to get our demands met and make our airline a safer and more employee friendly airline

Pray tell me how it will be a safer airline if the pilot has to take instructions from 2 bosses ie goyal and the union whip? Not to mention the hard landings due to frustration!

GlueBall

12th Sep 2009, 14:57

there are approx 40-50 of us on b737 with almost 10000 hrs of experience, dont you think it is our turn to fly the widebodies?????

Yes indeed. Check with TK and GF which are leasing at least 6 of your widebodies [B773s], and be based "away from home" at IST or BAH . . . :ooh:

alouette3

12th Sep 2009, 17:32

Last I checked it was a collective effort.

Really? How is it then that your aircraft are on the ground and flights are being cancelled by the hundreds? Maybe a little 'collective effort" from the ticket sellers and the ground staff can get them flying again.

The losses any airline bears is generally due to poor management.Yet the guys upstairs never hesitate to ask for a paycut from the workers while giving themselves fat bonuses and great perks.

Is it just me or does'nt anybody see the big picture? It is not about the pay,it is not about expats it is all about two pilots getting fired because they wanted to start a union.Does that not raise any red flags to anybody? Wannabe, Apache, Agent 123? Are you guys that much afraid of your jobs that you are willing to trade your self respect to a corporation that is acting illegally?If Jet had wanted to avoid this all they had to do was to call those two guys in along with a bunch of senior pilots and worked to resolve the differences. But no, that would be a sign of weakness and bowing down to the labour. Never happen In India. So they chose to take the illegal route. Well, we have a saying here: what goes around comes around. Whichever way this issue is resolved Jet has lost a lot of money in the last week or so. Neither the airline nor it's pilots can recover that ever.All because Goyal and his hired guns (like you guys) refused to understand that the fear mongering from Jet is all part of Union busting.Enjoy the coming carnage, gentlemen---- and I use that word loosely. Anybody who calls a fellow professional on a public forum a moron is not a gentleman at all. No matter how much you disagree with each other.
For the record, I do not fly for Jet or any other airline in India.
Alt3.

djanello

12th Sep 2009, 20:24

Mumbai, Sep 12 (PTI) The five-day-old stir by Jet Airways pilots that severely crippled the carrier's services neared an end tonight as the airline management and the agitators were understood to have worked out a settlement.

Indications of a resolution to the impasse between the two sides came after a marathon seven-hour meeting here during which it was agreed that the pilots sacked by the airline would be reinstated and the pilots would not challenge a review of registration of their union National Aviators Guild by the Registrar of Trade Unions.

The agitation, which saw almost 400 pilots affilated to NAG going on sick leave protesting dismissal of their colleagues and saw cancellation of 280 flights today, is expected to end soon with the pilots poised to resuming duty almost immediately.

HAWK21M

13th Sep 2009, 07:10

Will take 24-48hrs to get back to normalcy.

mukhi

13th Sep 2009, 07:15

Hari Sadu :=

Wannabe Flyer

13th Sep 2009, 09:11

Is it just me or does'nt anybody see the big picture?

Its only you alt3. Still struggling to see the picture.

And for the record I dont work for any airline in India, but run an affiliated business where such labor issues are all so common when a couple of politicians feed a few scraps and make them take good people down.

Either way the faracas has ended in a manner where the NAG has had it;s wings clipped. I suspect this is not the end and there will be a purge of trouble makers as any organization would do.

I still saw it is a collective effort, but you are free to gas up your plane, check in passengers and serve beverages anytime you want. :ok:

scorpilot

13th Sep 2009, 10:14

If your office gets taken over by foreigners, what do you do? Captain Sam Thomas, joint secretary, National Aviators’ Guild (NAG), who was sacked by Jet Airways for forming a union of pilots, asks Sreelatha Menon (Business Standard).

Why didn’t you accept the offer by Jet Airways and go back to work?
The offer by the management had a condition that we should dissolve the NAG. They said if anyone filed a case against the NAG, we should not challenge it. This will lead to the dissolution of the body. We can’t accept that.

Pilots are highly paid, about Rs 600,000 a month, which makes people wonder why they should want to form a union or a guild. You are hardly workers in that sense.
If highly paid people are not workers and can’t form unions, the Constitution of India should mention it. We don’t cease to have the right to form unions just because we are highly paid. Tell me, if all journalists are paid Rs 600,000 a month and asked to do domestic work, would you not form a union and fight for your rights?

But why did you form a union now?
We had a good association for the last ten years. We also have the Society for Welfare of Indian Pilots. But the expatriate management from the Arab countries is not used to workers having any rights. They are used to Indians coming to their countries and working like slaves. The association and the management had several agreements on working conditions but the expatriate management is going back on most of them.

What is the proportion of expatriates in the management?
Our management is completely expatriate. Our CEO is from Australia, the COO is from Bahrain, two top officials are from Ireland, while another is from Australia.

What was the immediate provocation?
There were many provocations during the last two years. The latest was regarding our career progression and promotions. No promotions were happening and all our allowances were cut. We understood that it was because of the recession. But if you are cutting our allowances, you can’t hire foreigners at double salaries. The foreign management was making Indians wait indefinitely for promotions. If your office gets taken over by foreigners, what do you do? We want dignity and not money. Money can’t be a substitute for dignity.

Is that why you wanted a union now?
They said without a union, you did not have any rights. So, we said we would form a union. Now, they want it dissolved.

There is no question that we all have a right to form unions, there is no question that Mr.Naresh Goyal has a fetish for "expats" at the cost of locals....whether that is a deliberate management ploy to keep the ranks divided is debatable.

Earlier this ( i dont work for Jet )year our T's and C's were changed overnight with a simple email..that was it ...no meetings...no discussions...it was take it or leave it. The management took advantage of the "recessionary conditions" and did not deem it necessary to have any dialogue before such drastic changes were implemented and we swallowed the pill with the usual bitching during night stops and a half succesful attempt to form a welfare association.

We have nothing against expats , they bring a wealth of experience and expertise to a new fleet but they also know that they are here for a limited time. As and when we have enough local talent i.e trainers , its time they got upgraded instead of hiring more expats...that seems fair and logical to me.

And a warm welcome to all my "sick" friends...we missed you...

Rananim

13th Sep 2009, 12:42

Stable smart management that knows what they are doing operationally, thinks in the long term, and understands the value of takeing care of their employees = long term success.

This,above all else,has been the key to SWA's success and it would behove any airline management to copy their modus operandi.Keep the front line troops(pilots/FA's) happy and you wont go far wrong.

nitpicker330

13th Sep 2009, 15:13

I think most of the Airline workers of the world dream of that happening.

But I'm affraid unless the profits are hugely better it never will.

Money talks.........

fly_fly

14th Sep 2009, 02:09

I'm glad to see somebody is taking a stand...

jimmygill

14th Sep 2009, 03:36

1. Pilots are not managers
They operate machinery, they are like truck driver, train driver, crane operator, a big paycheck doesn't mean that one is a manager. Pilots are professionals, they need professional organisations, to represent themselves. Doctor's, lawyer's, engineers, truck driver, train drivers, they all have and need professional organisations to represent them and to participate in a meaningful way toward the economic activity.

2. Managers are not professionals..(IMHO)
I haven't heard of any professional body of managers, even though lately business schools have been using terms like ethical management, the field is mostly limited to managing ethics. There is a reason too, they will not like to form a union because they don't want to share information about their pay-checks with other managers. Union for managers is a big no no.

3. Naresh Goyal Not a Captain
Neither is Jet airways a ship or a plane. He in his position is not the highest discretionary authority like a captain of a ship (or airplane) is. He can exercise his judgement to perceive a threat to jet airways... once having done that his actions cannot be arbitrary and have to be in consonance with the law of the land (whatever it may be), and he is answerable. If you have ever flown even a single passenger, I hope you will agree. He is not the final authority.

4. The Hangover
Why wont we Indians get over our hangover from 62 years ago. For crying out loud most of this country was born way way after the Brits left, so I would beg to differ on this. As far as beggering a country it first starts by disrupting capatilistic enterprise and then goes on. Glad the Reds did not win anything this time around as they subscribe to such thought processes.

You are talking of hangover as if it was a party, 62 years is a big number of course. Battle of Plassy was lost in 1757 the exploitation lasted 190 years. I don't know about others, but I am sure it was not a party, not for Indians at least. Lets come back to disrupting the 'capitalistic enterprise' theory. Capitalism works when on the basis of fairness and efficiency of markets. Amongst several other markets, one big market is labor market.

The labor market everywhere in the world is very asymmetric in terms of price determination. The labor needs the work. Or else he will not be able to maintain his living standard (a little bit higher for pilots, and for a reason, and not so higher for others, that too for a reason). Unions serve the role of determining this price and taking it to favor of labor rather than the capital. In a successful economy a proper balance between capital and labor is a must. As an economy reaches its potential capital earns less and less as compared to labor. This balance can only be brought forth by collective bargaining of unions.

If you just wanna know how the labor market works, go out an try to do a labor's job, try to get employed by jet airways, read the employment contract, see if you have any bargaining power, a manual labor and a pilot have almost the same bargaining power, none of them have any union, and both of them should.

Oh your employees need to form a union because you are economically exploiting them. Not your fault, because you in turn are being exploited too, may be you don't have an employer, but you still have other capital which is trying to bring down the price of your capital. Think holistic.

ragamuffin

14th Sep 2009, 12:37

Congratulations to the action taken by Jetairways pilots.

Our only strength is realised by remaining together and protecting/bargaining collectively.

shon7

15th Sep 2009, 11:12

What exactly was the amicable settlement that was agreed upon other than the reinstatement of the pilots and setting up of a grievance committee? I hear the pilots still face contempt of court charges.

pocrasta

16th Sep 2009, 17:35

They do but it has got nothing to do with Jet Airways,and will be delt with by the union lawyers.

av8sean

17th Sep 2009, 09:16

Wannabe Flyer

17th Sep 2009, 09:18

It's sad that expats are trying to rationalize qualified Indian pilots getting bypassed for promotion and making a fraction as much in their own country. This would never be allowed in a Western country. You guys had a good thing, now it's time to move on to the next thing.

Not an expat, and I don't think Indian pilots have gotten the raw end of the stick!

Few bad apples are spoiling the entire juice, expat or not.

CapDal

17th Sep 2009, 11:14

India should levy a fine the Jet pilots too.. They have caused the public to be looted flight attendants and ground staff not to get their hourly pay, all for what- already have a high salary and management job as a pilot- why make the company already running at a loss suffer. Shame on them. I am shocked that so many pilots striked, this will be bad for one of our country's largest airline, in the west Jet is also a flag carrier for India. I was proud of Jet. Hats off to all those who didn't strike, you are the true heroes. I hope these striking pilots have not ruined Jet for good.

CapDal

17th Sep 2009, 12:31

In 2000, the world's two largest airlines, United and US Airways in USA were run by Indians in the CEO/President level and also Air France in Europe.. this is not different than what is happening here, they are merely finding the best candidate for the job (or at least I would hope they are). There are thousands of Indian pilots outside of India, come join them, don't bring down an airline already in such trouble like Jet, it's just not right, it's selfish at the salary levels given and job comfort and security given. Jet is actually a lot better than the others I have seen, see what you have first in comparison before doing all this nonsense stuff to hassle others and the public and financially trying to ruin a company. Its almost feels like the striking pilots are paid by the competitor airlines to do this.

jimmygill

19th Sep 2009, 03:55

Wannabe Flyer

19th Sep 2009, 05:47

1. Please explain how the public got looted.

Public did not get looted and that is plain media stupidity, it was just a lot of inconvenience especially after the strike was withdrawn and for it to come back as "sick" leave. Pilots should have given the mandatory 14 days notice. Might have earned them some public respect. Next time try wearing a black band or something so the issue is restricted between pilots and the management.

2. High salary, comes after high investment.

So was the action because the pilots are not satisfied with the salary or because of the forced austerity of 20% cut or some other operational issue (reinstatement of few was made abundantly clear)?

3. Pilot job is not a management job, its a blue collar job.

A blue-collar worker is a member of the working class who typically performs manual labor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_labour) and earns an hourly wage. Blue-collar workers are distinguished from those in the service sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_sector) and from white-collar workers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-collar_worker), whose jobs are not considered manual labor. as defined by Wikki.

So therefore there is a disconnect in high salary vs hourly wage. Maybe a high hourly wage for pilots are in the making? Having a cake and eating is a possibility if it is shared and on a 2 way street. One cannot duck responsibility where it suits.

4. Every strike has a reason, and management has a role in strike too, why
blame only the pilots.

No body is blaming the pilots. I think the grouse is in the way it was done that took the general public by shock. We had come to expect this from factory workers and less skilled workforce who would be so in disciplined. However since you have clarified that pilots are blue collar, maybe then we should not be surprised

Schumi - Red Baron

19th Sep 2009, 08:17

Pilots should have given the mandatory 14 days notice. Might have earned them some public respect

It was in the national newspapers. So, it seems that they served the mandatory 14 day notice.

Jet pilots to go on strike from Sept 7 midnight- Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Jet-pilots-to-go-on-strike-from-Sept-7-midnight/H1-Article1-446557.aspx)

Jet pilots to go on strike from Sep 7 (http://www.financialexpress.com/news/jet-pilots-to-go-on-strike-from-sep-7/506575/)

as defined by Wikki.

WOW!!! what a reliable source.:rolleyes:

Next time try wearing a black band or something so the issue is restricted between pilots and the management

And are we sure that the management will listen to this. It works perfectly fine in organized countries like Japan but in India doubt it.