Melbourne LMO Merger

[Oh Me Oh My]

A lot of talk about displacing 12 SIT LAMEs but any word on the southern joining of terminals ? :confused: Any casualties ? :mad: Any winners ? :D

[hadagutfull]

yeah mate.. casualties- international line maint
winners:- the blue team.

Why bother... Jetstar already going to do the SYD_MEL route, whats next?
Get us all to domestic then threaten us with Jetstar ???

Mutha F:mad:rs

[Bumpfoh]

yeah mate.. casualties- international line maint
winners:- the blue team.

Why turn this into a red team blue team thing?

I am not condoning the actions of management (mis-management) which has led to this situation for one minute however your job is not under any threat with this proposal nor is the shift pattern and you don't even have to go the nasty hangar.

Most of the MDT guys believe it or not are sympathetic to the plight of the MIT guys however it appears the noisy minority just won't let go of the QF good old days and are hell bent on getting some retribution.
We also had the TN good old days but unfortuantely for both groups those days are long gone.

For the better of everyones future in MEL if you, as your alias suggests, have had a gutfull then do us all a favour and just leave. :ok:

[lame1]

Looks like the local management have completely derailed the merger.Word on the street suggests the troops have had enough re lack of training.It all seems to be one way when dealing with management.What happened to the new leaders.

[hadagutfull]

Bumpfoh... you are spot on. I would love to leave...The last 5 years of watching this (mis)management, have broken my resolve and my continued desire to be part of this once great industry.

Management 1 - Me 0 :ouch:

But, after all these years of dedicated service, its going to cost them for that pleasure: $$$$$$$ VR!! :ok:

[Oh Me Oh My]

Any further developments ? Looks like full steam ahead regardless hadagutful is that you impression ? I do wish though that you guys stopped you're infighting it only aids management get there way look wat it's done to SIT young versus old the only ones to blame is The managers they lost the contracts deliberately now we pay the price.....again
A mate from brissie is attending an 800 cousre there next week will the weather be good I want to visit him a couple of times

[Short_Circuit]

If you have 747 and / or 767 license, QF doesn't want you any longer. :uhoh:
The buggery campaign is alive and well.
Don't give in and leave without a VR package.
QF is hoping you will. :mad:

[hadagutfull]

Guys.. there is not any infighting...
I simply made a remark that Domestic will be the winners from the "re-organization" of the international operation both in SYD and MEL.
My reference to the "Blue Team" is just an expression from the old days and not meant to be degrading in any way....
Its just a bit of a kick when we have to change our whole way of operating to support the domestic schedule... Qantas does also have in international operation! . Also, we were proud to be bringing in good revenue from customers and showing them time and time again why we are amongst the worlds best engineers when the Shyte hit the fan with their aircraft.

As for me, I dont care what management think... I have had it and want to go.
Simple as that... my decision, not theirs.

But I wont leave on their terms.... It will be on my terms and im prepared to wait.
If I got to work with domestic.. so be it. Ill do it with a smile and full co operation.
No hard feelings from me :ok:

[lame1]

Management are hard to keep up with.One minute its No next minute its Yes.I wonder what made them elevate all the AME's to LAME's in MEL.Word on the street the Big Controller from Syd said NO NO NO last Friday.LOST and OUT of CONTROL.Does that best describe QF management?

[Oh Me Oh My]

Saw the notice WTF happened in Melb today ?
If management don't tell lies why can't we record the meeting surely thats beneficial for both sides ?

[aveng]

Change can be stressful in work as in life. We in Perth LMO have had to live with it for about 3years now. All I can suggest is, come and go to work and spend as much time as you can with your families/friends, eventually things will seem rosier. Combining the work force can be ok - if nothing else it can increase your circle of friends!:ok:

[The Mr Fixit]

Oh nice one Mr Quiet, so we only get 18 a330 courses if we merge ? I for one are sick and tired of the hollow threats, bring on the vote !!!

[AtALoss]

Heard on the grape vine that some big meeting happened in MEL last week. Head HR buffoons traveled south to meet with troops. Anybody know what went on? I'm still out here, but unable to tap normal sources.
Also heard that Line Management from SYD are not fully on board with MEL manager's dream. How does that happen? Who calls the shots? The manager or the manager's manager?

[AtALoss]

Lost momentum?
This is an important thread.
I'm sure the results of the merge meeting will be revealed soon. The ALAEA takes time to respond etc.
We need a little bird in local management to wet our appetite of the impending doom to come. That's all they are good for. Why do they do that? Boredom? Their jobs, having been turned into paper pushers, gives them too much time on their hands. Must do something I suppose.
We are told that if the merge does not take place, the downfall of QF will be imminent. Is our little corner of the world, so vital to the "big picture" they so often talk about? I think not. Come on! The money they have wasted on this failure of an idea is more than their combine bonuses.
We are told that if the merge does not take place, we will all loss our jobs. We LAME's are a dying breed. They need more of us to keep the buckets flying. If you can stand to work for QF, you will have a job until you retire.
Please keep this thread "moving forward". (You like that kind of talk? I just got all hot and bothered.)

[600ft-lb]

Who are you Ataloss ? From your massive sudden keen interest in what is happening with various industrial issues are you the next prong of a management scheme ? Are you trying to stoke discussion for some ammo ? I sincerely hope not, it is a sad state of affairs that QF management could be so underhanded in literally every dealing, if they could change tack, come out and say 'this is out 5 /10/20 year plan' you might get some respect from the troops who might actually work to change with you. Stinks of desperation to me mr ataloss.

[AtALoss]

Hello Mr 600ft-lb.
My keen interest has awoken form the various forums I've been trolling thorough of late. Usually, I just read, laugh and move on. But I've had a bit of time on my hand these past few days, so I thought, why not put my musings for all to read.
May I ask, is it normal for you to attack newbies with accusations of management black ops? Wouldn't it be smarter, to just sit back, and see what opinions and thought provoking discussion I might invoke?
It seems you may be living ga ga land thinking the company will ever tell the truth or let us in on what they have planned.
Let's have some input from the MEL DMMs. They are the ALAEA members that push the company's words on the merge. Have they been doing their bit to undermine the membership resolve?

[OlAME]

Well , here we go again " brothers " you blokes have no shame ,forget your AME mates again . No doubt , SP will be big noting himself to the ACTU.Bludgers!

[QF94]

The big shift to Base from S.I.T. has all of a sudden fallen very quiet. Either no one knows what is happening, or those in the know are not saying and will drop it on the chosen 12 at the last minute. Maybe management is in a pickle, as the 12 they want to move can't be moved due to their time in the company, or their licences they need.

As for the proposed MEL merger, it is difficult to merge two totally seperate operations and ways of doing things into one operation and expect it to work. There will be those who won't mind the merger, and there will be those who will oppose it with all their energy. And at what cost to all the players involved? Morale is virtually extinct within the company in all sections, and this forced merger, and transfers will only help to erode what sliver of morale is left.

Below is management's thinking:

A woman in a hot air balloon, realising she was lost, reduced altitude and spotted a man below. She descended further and shouted to the man "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet her an hour ago, but I don't know where I am".

The man below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above the fround. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be in I.T." said the balloonist.

"Actually, I am" replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well" answered the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. if anything, you've delayed my trip."

The man below responded, "You must be in management."

"I am" replied the balloonist. "But how did you know?"

"Well", said the man. "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my f:mad:g fault."


Does the above sound familiar?

[Travelling Engineer]

Haven't been any updates to this thread recently, just wondering why?

I heard a rumour from a source in Syd that the merger is about to happen down south. Is this true? Does that mean the union and company have agreed on the rather extensive list of "matters for consideration" put forward by the union?

Or have there been negotiations - in which case I hope they were recorded so there can be no mis-interpretation at a later date.

Anyone heard anything?

[AtALoss]

Hello Travelling Engineer. Just this morning I received word that local MEL management have finally notified their staff of a 23Nov merge. They didn't say what year that would be. No mention of union / staff agreement or the like. Maybe ALAEA could let us know if there has been an agreement behind closed doors. Interesting times will become the norm down south, if this goes ahead.

[Travelling Engineer]

Yes AtALoss, aboslutely correct. I followed it up again late today - actually saw a fax copy of the memo. 23rd was the only detail, no explaination of how it is going to work (or not work as the case may be!!) - I guess that's because they have no idea, and are just hoping against hope that perhaps it might work.

My source (admittedly, not from Melbourne) said that the company's position is that they have addressed all of the long list of "matters for consideration". I wonder if any of the Melb staff affected agree and especially if the ALAEA agrees with this statement. Would be good to hear the ALAEA's position on this.

From my reading of just point one and two of the ALAEA's letter to QF management, there must have been a written agreement between both parties AND it shouold have been voted on by those involved. Has this happened???
Then there are the other 31 points!!!.........

This situation could set precedents for those
of us in the rest of the country - so I do feel we should be kept informed (ie many of the issues are national - not local).

Can you shed any light ALAEA Fed Sec?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

None of our concerns have been addressed. There is no agreement. There are no details. I know what the company expects us to do. I am certain they have no idea what we will do.

[Travelling Engineer]

Given what occured in Syd last week regarding the forced transfers from SIT - I hope there is a lesson there for our colleugues down south. Co-operate at your peril.
Keep this in mind when you meet/vote tomorrow on the company imposed merger. Do you think the management have your best interests at heart???? Ha Ha Ha....sadly, I think not!
Could it be their bonuses are at heart?? Well, that's an interesting concept. Perhaps it forms part of a KPI for them - who knows?....but more to the point, Who cares?
Think of the type of person QF now employs at manager level right around the country - think of their behaviour over the past few years. Some have gone, many are still there. Some have even been promoted.....UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!

Be very wary. :E

[AtALoss]

Things are getting excited down south. The day is drawing closer, and still no real word from management how all this is going to happen.:confused:

Seems the domestic brothers, or at least some of them, are getting worried how it will effect them. Will this cut into their power domain, will it effect their O/T, must they be forever cast to the hangar?:{

One domestic crew voted unanimously that company was doing correct thing. No problems from them. Seems little bit strange not one was against it. Could it be stand-over tactics from the crew leaders? :eek:

I suppose all will be revealed in next couple of weeks. Brothers down south, keep your rear end covered at all times, wear your kevlar vest, and beware the wrath of Dumb and Dumber.:=

[Travelling Engineer]

"M"-day draws near!! Haven't heard much on the grapevine recently.....is the merger still going ahead? Is it still happening on Monday?? Have they sorted out all of the issues?? Did they have a vote and what was the result? (I note that you said a domestic crew voted for it AtALoss, did you mean 1 domestic crew or all the domestic crews??) What about the International Crews - did they vote for it??
So much to do - so little management ability to do it!!!
I guess it's been put off again has it??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just to answer a few questions. Management are pushing the merger through on Monday. The ALAEA had written with 33 concerns, management wrote back and of the concerns, brushed 30 aside, said yes to 3 of which one was a commitment to install a bigger SLII desk within 2 weeks, that was 6 weeks ago, still no desk.

From memory the results were -

Q1 Are you satisfied with management response - 33 yes (23 from one crew) 88 no.

Q2 should we encourage management to continue with merger 53 yes 68 no. (2 Dom crews in favour, 2 against and most international voted no). (many yes votes from members who just want to get it over)

Q3 Do we have a vote on extended hours rosters (to possibly see if they can run the merger on an 8 hour roster). 33 yes 90 no (2 Dom crews in favour of the battle, 2 against and most international against).

The ALAEA can't prevent them from telling the blokes to start in a different location right now. The fight will take place in 12 months time when EA negotiations are due. Any changes in any port that are against the wishes of our members will now become EA claims for the next round.

[QF94]

The ALAEA can't prevent them from telling the blokes to start in a different location right now. The fight will take place in 12 months time when EA negotiations are due. Any changes in any port that are against the wishes of our members will now become EA claims for the next round.

And let the games begin!

[blubak]

So,on the 23rd,all the problems of management are going to be solved!
Lets see,the operation will become a DYNAMIC business!!!!,MCC will allocate lots more work to Melb,the overtime will be shared equally around,the rosters will remain the same,management will go out and get all the customers back,and of course we will all be treated as people-not as S..T!
Gee,im glad i just woke up-what a bad dream!

[listentome]

management will go out and get all the customers back

Dream or not, I'm not so sure any of the ex-customers want us back. They won't want to be burnt again and especially in 12 months time. They have well and trully sought providers that give them what they want....service.

[Travelling Engineer]

How did day one of the grand plan go guys?? No doubt the extra efficiencies gained by such a well thought out and executed folly...sorry I mean idea....would result in a perfect record of on-time departures and many people sitting around 'cos of the brilliant use of manpower??
Would be interesetd to hear how it all went.

[Ngineer]

The way things are heading at the moment, I seriously doubt that the current managers will still be in a job after the dust settles next EBA.

[AtALoss]

The merge has happened.
I'm told that nothing but location has changed for the International brothers. Still treated like S:mad:T from management and some Domestic guys.
Domestic brothers are mixed. Some good, some not so good. Depends on which crew you work with. No change here!
Management still not leading. The locals think that the management team are so stupid, they don't know how to make it work. I agree.
No efficiencies yet. Maybe never.

[Travelling Engineer]

Ah well...been wondering how it all went - guess it wasn't TOO bad or we would have heard something on pprune or on the grapevine.
Just wondering how it works? Do the International guys handle international A/C and Domestic guys domestic A/C? or is everyone mixed up (figuratively speaking!!!). I guess there is a DMM or S/Lame (or both)based at Int. terminal for health and safety reasons, is there?
What about all of the different procedures in use at each terminal - have they rationalised procedures or still use Dom at Dom and Int at Int?
What about paperwork - I seem to remember hearing there are two different paperwork systems in Melbourne - is that still the case?

[1746]

Heard an official source suggest that all the dayshift o/t has been eliminated, fact or fiction?

[dom butt monkey]

at a loss looks like the same thing is happening at bne the international boys go to the dom to do their sh*t work like the towing in the morning so they can rest up then back again later for the arvo rush so they can rest up some more then all over on night shift so we can wrap up all the work before we go home so they can rest up.....because they have morning tarmac.....cannot let them get fatigued....meanwhile the international aircraft on dayshift are worked with the bare min as most are over the dom .....

[hewlett]

Sounds like you have a few issues dbm.Better fill those pockets up again.

[another superlame]

These issues are everywhere. The jetbase boys are made to do the towing or crap work that SIT and SDO don't want. It sucks when at 0530 you are asked to move an SDO aircraft because their guys have gone home early. All care but no responsibility. Admittedly the management of base maintenance should grow a spine and tell them to do it themselves rather than send their guys home early.

So in the end it doesn't matter which port or what section you are in there is and will probably always be issues. Merging or splitting areas doesn't seem to fix anything. Maybe a purging of management might.

[Jet-A-One]

Explosive first post dom butt monkey :}

Unfortunately the writing is on the wall for BIT. A merger with the dark side is inevitable. When JAL pull out of BNE and the Korean contract ends up in the recycle bin with the rest, it's going to get harder to justify a separate international operation.

So get used to spending more time in the land of many flat screen TVs :\

[QF94]

The jetbase boys are made to do the towing or crap work that SIT and SDO don't want.

I beg to differ on that point. S.I.T. seem to do the crap that S.D.T. don't want, as they always seem to be short staffed over there, but when you go over, they're milling around the SL desk talking shop, or whatever they talk over there.

Jetbase boys will be getting 12 S.I.T. boys, so I guess you'll be doing more S.I.T. crap, as there will barely be anyone left at S.I.T. as we're so busy backfilling Base and S.D.T.

[hewlett]

I suppose the transition from dealing with foreign, procedures,air and cabin crew and maint watch when things go pear shaped,to now tossing a chock and a fast lap of the airframe must be a bit demoralising to say the least.Its no wonder the brothers seem so depressed,or is it just a nightshift thing.HTFU.

[QF94]

I suppose the transition from dealing with foreign, procedures,air and cabin crew and maint watch when things go pear shaped,to now tossing a chock and a fast lap of the airframe must be a bit demoralising to say the least.Its no wonder the brothers seem so depressed,or is it just a nightshift thing.HTFU.

It's not just the dealing with the foreign operators, procedures, air and cabin crew, and maintenance watch. It's the fact that there was a variety of work, a variety of problems and a variety of fixes that added to one's experience, and also a sense of accomplishment.

As for the fast lap around the airframe and chocks in, this was commonplace on an Asiana or Vietnam 777 that was in for about 90 minutes.

The brothers as you call them seem depressed because all of that work that kept everyone gainfully employed has now been taken off them and are now being herded to base to backfill the positions that have gone to A380.

If it's a night shift thing. So what. If you don't have to do it, you're better off, health wise and family wise. If there is no choice but to do it, then so be it. But the point is that the choice has been taken away together with the work that was bringing in $$$$$ to S.I.T.

[Bootstrap1]

Have the 12 been chosen to go to base yet. And if so who might they be? Is it last in first out, or least time in company or single licence types that are no longer in use?

[hewlett]

QF94 we are on the same page.

[QF94]

Have the 12 been chosen to go to base yet. And if so who might they be? Is it last in first out, or least time in company or single licence types that are no longer in use?

Bootstrap, the 12 have been chosen, but in usual QF fashion, it's a mishmash of how they arrived at their conclusion and who was to go.

It was basically those that had credits outstanding with a single category licence. Even included guys who had done JTP courses. Yes, after the management clamped down on allowing guys going for SOE, they decided to include non-company training type courses, and this was part of their culling process.

[600ft-lb]

All of this intra-port whinging leads me to agree with the management decision to merge the bases.

Merging of the the bases will stop this US vs THEM goings on.

We aren't each others enemy, we're colleagues. Some of you lot really are short sighted.

[QF94]

All of this intra-port whinging leads me to agree with the management decision to merge the bases.

Merging of the the bases will stop this US vs THEM goings on.

We aren't each others enemy, we're colleagues. Some of you lot really are short sighted.

You mean like the merging of TN & QF? 16 years after the merger it's still red team and blue team, not purple which it's supposed to be if properly blended.

As we've seen over the years, we have domestic DMM's running international ops and international DMM's running domestic ops, in SYD anyway. The trains of thought are on different tracks heading in different directions.

Merging of the bases will NOT stop the US vs THEM goings on. Too many people have a mindset of what was once, and won't change. Also, may people have gripes from years gone by.

To be honest, it's management that is short-sighted thinking they can herd people together and make an efficient operation. Unfortunately, management of past and present have no idea on what to do and how to do it. They seem to rehash old ideas and think they can make it work better. This is fantasy land. I'll use Sydney as an example. International operations are different to domestic operations, which are different to base operations. There is no standardisation of operations and procedures between the bases. Domestics have single-person transits, International have two-person transits, and the guys doing the transits do the defects. Domestics have a Rover to fix defects. Domestics have QF only aeroplanes, International have QF and whatever is left of customer aircraft. Base have aircraft come in and have defect rectification done at the hangars.

I guess your view 6000ft-lb is as short-sighted as you thinks ours is, and maybe even more short-sighted than that of management.

[AtALoss]

You have an insight not many around here have. I congratulate you sir.

[hewlett]

Again QF94,the sentiments of many in words.Shame management is not up to the task.It is the same in other ports.Well put!

[dom butt monkey]

so whats the fix QF94and i agree with what you are saying,if we wait for a generational change unfortunally the youger ones get caught up with the older ones way of thinking and the divison continues......hence the dom butt monkey

[Oh Me Oh My]

I was talking to an older guy in our section and he made the quote "The more things change, the more they remain the same" seems whoever is running the show wants to keep the same attitude as the previous clowns and the same divide up between us (by the way if we assist this process we only assist management in treating us the way they do)
My opinion (for what its worth) is that we should concentrate on realizing that we are all equal, that we should support each other in whatever workplace that way when management attack one section they attack all. Together we stand, divided we fall. EBA IX is just around the corner.

For my domestic brothers out there, I heard from an office stoolie that No Man Transit is back on the agenda for the new year, can this be confirmed ?

[QF94]

so whats the fix QF94and i agree with what you are saying,if we wait for a generational change unfortunally the youger ones get caught up with the older ones way of thinking and the divison continues......hence the dom butt monkey

The only true fix is one that doesn't soley involve cost cutting and "efficiencies". It is accepted that a business has to make a profit and be as efficient as possible, but one must also remember that the aviation/airline industry is an expensive business to be in, no matter how efficient and low-cost you try to make it. Jetstar pays the same price for its parts, fuel etc to put it in the air as QANTAS does, albeit they pay less to their staff. This in turn leads to higher staff turnover. So there is no real cost saving, and I believe it's pretty well accepted that QF shoulders much of JQ's (international anyway) maintenance costs.

The real fix lies in the true long-sightedness of the company, and this requires a change in mindset of the management for starters. Whilst there continues to be the short-term gain for profits and bonuses, this will not change. There is no point in having large sums of money in the kitty while the company crumbles around you, just so you can show your shareholders what a good money maker and saver you are.

New equipment is needed, and the A380 is not really the answer to the long-haul sectors, as has been proven of late.

Not just long sightedness is needed, but smart thinking and good management. I mean management like you would manage your own household budget, not just because you have the title of a manager.

Also, the thing underpinning smart management is accountability and responsibility. Upper management can cost the company tens of millions for their stupidity, but there is no accountability for their actions. Yet, if you as a LAME/AME cause a delay for some minor misjudgement, you have hell to pay for because of a silly 5-10 minute delay and the buck-passing starts.

Also, management have shown they really have no time for the real problems, but try to mask them until they move onto another section.

Morale is the biggest problem within the company. Whilst there is low morale, there is no trust, and without trust there is no respect from either side of the divide.

In short, there is no single answer, but a series of changes that need to be in place, otherwise, the QANTAS as we know it today will be forever.

[QF94]

I was talking to an older guy in our section and he made the quote "The more things change, the more they remain the same" seems whoever is running the show wants to keep the same attitude as the previous clowns and the same divide up between us (by the way if we assist this process we only assist management in treating us the way they do)

Couldn't have said it better myself. No matter what process is brought into place, planes come in, they get serviced/inspected and sent on their merry way again. This has never changed and will never change (in our lifetime anyway). Aircraft are machines, and they can't fix themselves, yet. They still need human input to maintain them, and you can't tell me that if a pilot does a walk around, he won't find a problem that he can't fix. He'll be doing a "D" check on his walkaround. Imagine there are no LAME's on a transit, and the pilot radios back to the office and says he has a whole list of defects that need to be looked at 20-30 minutes prior to departure. Wheel/brake change, missing panel, etc.

I can't see it happening, but who knows what Bozo the clown making the decisions will come up with?

[KrispyKreme]

have to agree now with 600ft-lb, maybe to once and for all to stop this stupid US Vs Them is to make everyone reapply for there jobs in each of the section to start from scratch, lets just shuffle the pack a bit and see were the cards fall :mad:

Its like being back at school sometimes , grow ups guys

[QF94]

have to agree now with 600ft-lb, maybe to once and for all to stop this stupid US Vs Them is to make everyone reapply for there jobs in each of the section to start from scratch, lets just shuffle the pack a bit and see were the cards fall http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Its like being back at school sometimes , grow ups guys

Couldn't agree more Krispy. All of management should have to reapply for their jobs and actually prove their credentials to show they can do the job they're actually employed to do. That is to manage their sections to sustainable levels and actually keep them running. Not running them into the ground.

Without good and loyal staff, there simply wouldn't be a company or business. Management make lots of decisions, but it's the people at grass-roots level that keep the company tickng over. Whether a manager is present for the day or not actaully makes no difference to the operations. The staff do what they're employed to do, whether it be maintaining aircraft, checking in passengers, cleaning aircraft, dumping toilets, flying the aircraft, serving passengers etc, etc. The job is still the same regardless of management's policies and procedures. No staff = no business. Happy staff = very profitable business. Low-moraled staff = business (barely).

For as long as there is a buggery campaign (silent or otherwise) and management pitting one section against another, there will always be an US vs THEM situation, as it's not in management's favour to have a united workforce. The LAME war of 2008 proved that.

[Ngineer]

Problems within engineering will not be fixed in a short to medium time frame. Come next EBA, the repercussions will have many questions being asked as to what is going on.
Give it time, and a few more bodies will come floating by.......

[dom butt monkey]

yes qf94 i agree with what you say...and it won't matter when we start launching aircraft straight up we will be still here and a different management team will be telling us to do it this way,mind you we will of done that way before but this time it will be different.
as for the no lame preflt yes i think that will be back and with the new guy starting in feb i think we will see some changes....i beleive the domestic aircraft cleaners/aircraft workers are at aviation aust. getting task trained is this the start of "cat A" .....yep i think our world is about to change,dont forget the PPM was change in 2003 to include the "no lame preflt" but was never acted upon

[QF94]

as for the no lame preflt yes i think that will be back and with the new guy starting in feb i think we will see some changes....i beleive the domestic aircraft cleaners/aircraft workers are at aviation aust. getting task trained is this the start of "cat A" .....yep i think our world is about to change,dont forget the PPM was change in 2003 to include the "no lame preflt" but was never acted upon

domm butt monkey, I recall that when the then line manager Mr Deahm would come around to our section and say that QF will have no need for white shirts out on the tarmac. He is no longer around, nor those that succeeded him. It's 6 years since the PPM has changed to remove LAME's from the tarmac. I still can't see how cleaners, as short staffed as they are, are going to cope with the additional workload of are going to cope with the arrivals/departures, unless more are going to be employed, which kind of defeats the purpose of cutting the workforce or cutting costs to engineering.

It may be a domestic issue that they want LAME's replaced by cleaners/aircraft workers. I don't know how long it will last, if it does, but there will be major problems. Training people for a few days at Aviation Australia will not thoroughly prepare people with no aircraft maintenance background to arrive and depart aircraft. This task is an integrated task, and simply cannot be categorised to arrival, transit, defect rectification (if any), preflight, departure. It sounds great in theory, but we all know in practice it's not that easy, especially when people with next to no training are ariving and departing aircraft.

Speaking from an S.I.T. point of view, United Airlines tried this a few years ago, and it wasn't long before they reverted back to having the LAME's doing the transits and departures due to the communication problem between incoming pilot trying to advise of a problem, and that problem being relayed to engineering and an engineer finally coming to the aeroplane to see what was wrong. It was a costly exercise due to the delays or missed reports. Every airline at S.I.T. and I would safely say around the country in the least, have all transits/PREFLTS conducted by LAME's.

Anyway, the management team always seem to know better and think they can avoid the mistakes of others and make things work. When they don't, out comes the finger and the blaming starts because it wasn't given a chance to work.

We'll just have to wait and see what 2010 holds in store and what great big changes are going to take place.

[Black Hands]

"G'day Skipper, I just happened to be walking past and noticed:

Your 737 l/e slat actuators appear to have some evidence of leakage...
Your 737 HF antenna mylar tape appears to be lifting...
Your 737 MLG vapour barrier appears to be cracked...
Your 737 fuel stick decals appear to be illegible...
Your 767 appears to have a nicked fan blade in the l/h engine...
Your 767 appears to have evidence of fluid leaking from the r/h mlg oleo...
Your 767 appears to have hydraulic fluid leaking from the hydraulic service panel...
Your 767 appears to have a waste or water service panel latch damaged...
Your 767 bulk cargo door sill has impact damage...
Your A330 has a belly fairing fastener missing...
Your A330 has a couple of drops of fuel from the VSV/VBV drain...
Your A330 has a mlg brake temp sensor bracket cracked...
Your a/c apparently has a lizard on board...;)

I'll just pop it in the book... Thanks"..

[600ft-lb]

Every airline at S.I.T. and I would safely say around the country in the least, have all transits/PREFLTS conducted by LAME's.

Jetstar and Virgin don't for their domestic operation, they do daily's. Etops preflights being the exception. Only need to call an engineer out if there is a problem, last time I looked their OTP was pretty close to Qantas.

Even I as a worker for Qantas can see the writing on the wall in this area.

[Black Hands]

Jetstar and Virgin don't for their domestic operation, they do daily's. Etops preflights being the exception. Only need to call an engineer out if there is a problem, last time I looked their OTP was pretty close to Qantas.



One would assume, our OTP should see significant improvement with no one looking for defects... :}:}

[QF94]

Jetstar and Virgin don't for their domestic operation, they do daily's. Etops preflights being the exception. Only need to call an engineer out if there is a problem, last time I looked their OTP was pretty close to Qantas.

Even I as a worker for Qantas can see the writing on the wall in this area.

As I had stated in gthe post you took an excerpt from above, it may be a domestic issue. V Australia and Jetstar international use LAME's at the international terminal. Hence if you've read my posts, there is a great difference between domestic and international operations.

OTP is an arbitrary figure and can/is manipulated to suit one's desires/requirements. OTP doesn't come down to just walk-arounds. As I'm sure you'd understand, being a worker with QF, many variables play a role in the final OTP. Late arrivals, connecting flights, NIL/NIL incoming defects, last minute status message, missed catering, etc, etc.

The writing is and has been on the wall for a number of years, and if one doesn't at least question why things are being changed, then as history will show, not only LAME's, but workers in general get steam-rolled into a situation, and then have to dig themselves out of the rubble long after the decision makers are gone. Change should not just be for change sake, but for a real benefit that REALLY improves a work practice. Not just reduce a cost so it looks good for the bean counters, and the manager implementing it gets a feather in his/her cap.

As blackhands said, OTP can be really great when you don't look at defects. If policies and maintenance practices were to be followed to the letter, barely an aeroplane would get off the ground in the turnaround times scheduled.

I seem to have noticed over the recent years that Safety Before Schedule or Take 5 has died a quiet death. Not saying to drag your feet and deliberately delay an aeroplane, but if a delay is going to happen, so be it. Much cheaper to have a 10-15 minute delay than having something blowing out the side of an aircraft at 30,000ft or experiencing darkness on approach to BKK in the night, etc, etc.

Read the mechanic's creed below. Something lost with management and some engineers in pursuit of their own agenda:

"Mechanic's Creed

UPON MY HONOR I swear that I shall hold in sacred
trust the rights and privileges conferred upon me as a
certified mechanic. Knowing full well that the safety and lives
of others are dependent upon my skill and judgment, I shall
never knowingly subject others to risks which I would not be
willing to assume for myself, or for those dear to me.

IN DISCHARGING this trust, I pledge myself never to
undertake work or approve work which I feel to be beyond
the limits of my knowledge; nor shall I allow any non certificate
superior to persuade me to approve aircraft or equipment
as airworthy against my better judgment; nor shall
I permit my judgment to be influenced by money or other
personal gain; nor shall I pass as airworthy aircraft or equipment
about which I am in doubt, either as a result of direct
inspection or uncertainty regarding the ability of others who
have worked on it to accomplish their work satisfactorily.

I REALIZE the grave responsibility which is mine as a
certified airman, to exercise my judgment on the airworthiness
of aircraft and equipment. I, therefore, pledge unyielding adherence
to these precepts for the advancement of aviation and for
the dignity of my vocation."

You can read this at:

The Mechanic's Creed-Aviation Maintenance - Topic Powered by Eve Community (http://forums.swissair111.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/322103945/m/796102986)


Some may say it's tacky or corny, but when you actually read what is written, it's as applicable today as it was when it was written. The job and responsibility to the job has not changed. That is the writing on the wall that I read.

[tjc]

I will be surprised if the LAME less tarmac is not back on the agenda.

This can only be for the Domestic ops as International ops require LAMES regardless, i.e New Gen A/c, multi eng A/c, etc.

You have to remember that these current managers, like before, are followers and not leaders as they look at what the rest of the world is doing, not willing to make their own decisions.

Funny thing with the overseas airlines that these managers cite, the log still has to be answered each transit, (even NIL), just no walk around certified for. Under our current regs, a LAME is required to answer the log. So currently, I see no gain, unless a reg shift is on the cards, (EASA still reqs log answered).

[Ngineer]

A couple of weeks ago I heard that a sharp eyed line mech noticed a dodgy tyre just prior to push. (ex hangars). They put a gauge on it and it was around 100psi. Tyre was replaced before the plane took off, avoiding a burst on takeoff roll.

Now fast fwd a few years (if we have a LAME-less tarmac), then the results would definately be very different indeed.....

Just some food for thought.

Safety always has its price. And if we are happy to save a few thousand by removing LAMEs off the tarmac, yet pay a few mill for a CEO (who did a cr@p job), then there is something seriously wrong with our business principles.

[dom butt monkey]

yes yes yes ...the no lame preflt is only for domstic ops it always was....and yes a nil does require sign off,but not only from a lame a cat A can sign....but fast fwd a little if the pilot does not put "nil" in the book[maybe he/she will be told not enter anything if nothing wrong]...well there you have a situation where you dont need a lame....of course you will always need lame's but maybe a lot less on tarmac ....dont for one second think that they would get rid of us if they could or at the very least down size us in line,thats what they did in heavy,and now bne and mel come under heavy mmmmm something brewing

[QF94]

Safety always has its price. And if we are happy to save a few thousand by removing LAMEs off the tarmac, yet pay a few mill for a CEO (who did a cr@p job), then there is something seriously wrong with our business principles.

That's just it. There are no principles. Business or otherwise. We allegedly cost the company $150M last year in our PIA when all we were asking for was about $5-6M. Work that one out.

The LAMEless tarmac is for domestics only, as international have New Gen aircraft? What about the NG737, A330 and the 787, if/when it arrives? They're all new gen aircraft, and used/will be used on the domestic sectors.

I'm beyond trying to work out what management are up to or the silly mind games they play at. They do nothing but threaten us and play the doom and gloom game, and some of us engineers buy it, which leads to the divide we have.

Two things are infinite: The universe and management's stupidity; I'm just not sure about the universe. Just a little play on Einstein's words.

I guess if you turn a deaf ear to management's dribble, they may just stop dribbling. Who knows? Stranger things have happened.

[600ft-lb]

Funny thing with the overseas airlines that these managers cite, the log still has to be answered each transit, (even NIL), just no walk around certified for. Under our current regs, a LAME is required to answer the log. So currently, I see no gain, unless a reg shift is on the cards, (EASA still reqs log answered).I think you'll find that many airlines don't have to answer a 'nil' report with a licenced engineer, even CAT A. If you think Qantas don't know about this and aren't pushing casa to make it happen you're dreaming.

A couple of weeks ago I heard that a sharp eyed line mech noticed a dodgy tyre just prior to push. (ex hangars). They put a gauge on it and it was around 100psi. Tyre was replaced before the plane took off, avoiding a burst on takeoff roll.
Yes a good find no doubt, but the pilot does a walkaround inspection, CASA are happy with just that. Ask Virgin. The justification that an incident somewhere was avoided because of someone won't stop CASA joining the rest of the world. You're not even supposed to be checking the tyres of wear, only for damage(which the pilot is supposed to do) on the transits anyway. Thats what a check 3 is for. In the eyes of CASA and Qantas, if you are doing your job properly then the next day of flying should not have any issues with worn tyres, as an example.

Thats how the system of maintenance is designed, its all in place for LAME-less tarmac, it will just cost Qantas too much in workforce dissent at the moment.

ETOPS being the only exception to all of the above as it is elsewhere in the world.

As you can see, Jetstar come in and go all day long, Virgin come in and go all day long. None of their jets have speared in yet. The cost vs product works out in their favour.

Its not like we are going to be unemployed, there is still plenty of work to be done, new aircraft are arriving every week, they are still mechanical beasts and need engineers to do actual work to fix them, but the days of signing for a check 1 nil nil are coming to an end I believe.

It's a bit like the music industry fighting the digital audio format and pirating on the internet. They are making a big fuss about it and the drop in CD sales but the world moved on 5 years ago, they just haven't realised yet.

Once again, this is just my opinion.

[QF94]

Quote:
A couple of weeks ago I heard that a sharp eyed line mech noticed a dodgy tyre just prior to push. (ex hangars). They put a gauge on it and it was around 100psi. Tyre was replaced before the plane took off, avoiding a burst on takeoff roll.
Yes a good find no doubt, but the pilot does a walkaround inspection, CASA are happy with just that. Ask Virgin. The justification that an incident somewhere was avoided because of someone won't stop CASA joining the rest of the world. You're not even supposed to be checking the tyres of wear, only for damage(which the pilot is supposed to do) on the transits anyway. Thats what a check 3 is for. In the eyes of CASA and Qantas, if you are doing your job properly then the next day of flying should not have any issues with worn tyres, as an example.


I recall this particular incident very well, and this was found after the pilot did his walkaround and nestled into his seat ready for pushback LAX bound.

We know QF and CASA work hand-in-glove so QF can get its way. Sure Virgin and Jet* come and go domestically without LAME's on every transit.

I've seen some (not all) pilots on their walkaround, and they're either looking skyward, past the aeroplane, or won't get too close to the aeroplane in case they get their tie greased or rub against a wheel.

All in all, another cost reduction program that will cost more than is actually saved. LAMEless tarmacs may be coming to a domestic terminal near you, but if history is anything to go by, the tarmacs could be filled once again with LAME's as it may be realised that a premium airline actually needs premium servicing on its transits.

[Black Hands]

In what I'm sure to many will appear a futile, final, desperate attempt to minimise obvious "system induced error" scenarios and maintain some semblance of pride in my chosen vocation, I will continue to carry out extremely vigilant walkaround inspections of my allocated aircraft regardless of QANTAS policy for non-er transit aircraft, submitting form 500's and SDR's for all discrepancies noted throughout the duration of the turnaround...
Whilst I endeavour to understand the many commercial pressures faced by airlines operating in todays environment, the ability to comprehend the "race to the bottom" philosophy regarding aircraft preventative maintenance continues to evade me... As long as my bum points to the ground, the safety of the aircraft and those on board will remain my priority...
A pin prick, you betcha...

"If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles"... Sun Tzu.

[QF94]

What Black Hands said above.

Yes a good find no doubt, but the pilot does a walkaround inspection, CASA are happy with just that. Ask Virgin. The justification that an incident somewhere was avoided because of someone won't stop CASA joining the rest of the world. You're not even supposed to be checking the tyres of wear, only for damage(which the pilot is supposed to do) on the transits anyway. Thats what a check 3 is for. In the eyes of CASA and Qantas, if you are doing your job properly then the next day of flying should not have any issues with worn tyres, as an example.

Correct me if I'm wrong 600ft lb, and I'm not crticising you, but isn't our job's priority to avoid incidents? From an engineering perspective anyway as we have no control of an aeroplane once it's dispatched.

If we see something wrong, we fix it. Tyre wear is part of a pre-flight. When inspecting for tyre damage, you invariably look at the tyre/wheel assembly as a whole. Tyre shoulder wear, under-inflation, missing or broken wheel tie bolts, cuts, etc etc.

I believe the idea of preventative maintenance is lost on management. Prevention is better than cure, and a whole lot cheaper in the long run. In the past, we may have over-serviced our aircraft, but it sure is a lot better than under-servicing and having the problems we now have. As aircraft age, it necessarily follows that more servicing and maintenace will be required. The RR 744's now avaerage about 15-16 years in age. The GE 763's and the 734's just a little bit more.

As new as the 330's and 380's are, they have their fair share of problems, that need more LAME's/AME's per aircraft than their older counterparts.

We are on a track to nowhere, as the plan is set in motion and is only a matter of time before it comes into play. As LAME's, we still have to do our job, and that is to maintain and keep the aircraft in the best possible condition we can, regardless of cost-cutting measures being implemented.

[dom butt monkey]

dont get me wrong i am all for maintaining our aircraft and for the safety of all who fly ....but beating our chest and quoting some chinaman about war and bodies floating past does nothing for our image...if the company change the way we do things then it will change and not much you can do about ....yes i hear you saying i will go out there and snag the sh*t out of it ......what if you are not there.....then in a few months i can see the lames that are left looking out the windows saying gee we used to actually go out to the aircraft.....hey who's deal

[hewlett]

With the loss of customer airlines the combined LMO workforce must now be overstaffed.Whereto for the LAME once they are now longer reqd for domestic turnarounds?

[1746]

If any one believes there is, or ever will be, an excess of LAME's -I suggest you should think again! If still in doubt just ask CASA!

[Ngineer]

If any one believes there is, or ever will be, an excess of LAME's -I suggest you should think again! If still in doubt just ask CASA!


Who is "CASA"? Don't you mean Qf?

I am sure if there is a shortage of LAMEs then QF can have the regulations changed to sidestep this issue.

[1746]

Who is "CASA"? Don't you mean Qf?

I am sure if there is a shortage of LAMEs then QF can have the regulations changed to sidestep this issue
I defer to your obvious knowledge having just gleaned the contents of CASA's NPRM0604MS!!!!!! CASA does it again!

[QF94]

With the loss of customer airlines the combined LMO workforce must now be overstaffed.Whereto for the LAME once they are now longer reqd for domestic turnarounds?

Base sounds a fair guess, because the guys in base are going to A380.

With all the noise about the shortfall in domestics, it sounds like they are going to suffer a similar fate as the S.I.T. boys. We had our customers scared off by QF management, and they now want LAMEless tarmacs at domestic.

Surplus guys might even get offered VR.....NOT!

[Clipped]

I defer to your obvious knowledge having just gleaned the contents of CASA's NPRM0604MS

Just received my notice from the ALAEA.

It is absolutely critical that a response to the NPRM is sent by as many LAMEs as possible, before Friday.

Pass this on.

Just another ruling to degenerate standards.

[dom butt monkey]

yes its past friday's dead line but casa will still take replys so send them in ....i have sent my own in[some what longer]but all responces will be received by our regulator....unfortunally i dont think much will happen as i think that casa has endured much bashing in the media of late and a change in the way we do things will give the public the idear that casa has made some changes and all will be good again.......some of the changes are already in some form and most are already covered by QF's PPM ,,,,get use to it "times are a changing" ....dont get me wrong i dont like it........DBM